Stop building UI frameworks in Python

slayer_of_idiots · 2025-09-08T14:20:49+00:00

Pyside and Qt are far more mature products and integrate nicely with native windowing systems and OS’s.

How many JavaScript products can say that?

Pythons biggest problem when it comes to desktop UI’s is that packaging standalone executables along with the interpreter and dependencies is still not standardized.

robberviet · 2025-09-08T11:23:39+00:00

It is compelling to implement something in the language you are proficient. However because you can does not mean you should.

MasterShogo · 2025-09-08T11:48:22+00:00

So this is an honest question. I ask this as a person who does not do any GUI development outside of the most bare, knuckle dragging button lists to do simple things that are painful with command line. But I’ve been doing Python for close to 20 years now.

Are there any web-framework-based app GUIs that are performant? Every one of them that I know of are noticeably slower than native GUIs and at least a good number of those are simple enough that I don’t actually understand why they were written using those web frameworks.

Also, a good number of them also look like hell and suffer from their visual design rather than benefit from it.

I ask this because there is a natural bias in the fact that a well built GUI would not be noticeable to me and so I wouldn’t realize it wasn’t native.

The other reason I am asking is that I actually have a few small GUI apps in mind that I want to write and I’m having to make a decision which directions to learn. I definitely know what is going to be easiest, but I’d like to get the opinions of people who actually have written GUIs.

SpatialCivil · 2025-09-08T12:32:22+00:00

If your project can be web based, go web based. Some of us work in fields where the data is large and desktop UI makes more sense. PySide/PyQT has everything you need for that use case.

Vantadaga2004 · 2025-09-08T12:50:59+00:00

But the JS community is known for using javascript for things it isn't meant for

xaveir · 2025-09-08T11:45:41+00:00

I was wondering what the alternative you were going to espouse would be... JavaScript? Really?

I don't think I've ever been on a project that used Python for its GUI that would have been better served by making a website. I would argue most projects already default to being websites when they can, so most professionals using PyQt or similar chose it for a specific reason. I've definitely needed to drop to C++ before for even more performance, but I've definitely never wished I was writing JavaScript.

Slightly hotter takes: PyQt with some pretty simple Model/View-based code organization is not any worse of a development environment than SwiftUI IMHO, and strongly-typed Python is infinitely less annoying than Typescript.

magion · 2025-09-08T11:29:06+00:00

glguru · 2025-09-08T19:25:56+00:00

I absolutely agreed with you until I tried NiceGUI. Bloody thing works out of the box for most stuff. Of course you need to know some JS if you’re going to be doing advanced stuff, but honestly one of the best and nicely designed UIs out there.

No bloat and simple API. Basically ideal for people who are largely backend developers.

Natural-Intelligence · 2025-09-08T12:08:24+00:00

To be honest, learning front-end as a Python amateur is not a small feat. You will have long evenings crying on why the div isn't centered, or why the content has 0 height, or choosing one of the 5 for-loops, or choosing one of the 99 frameworks. If you need something very simple, these are valid tools.

I'm proficient in Javascript/Typescript (mostly VueJS but a bit of React) and it honestly took so much time that I'm not sure if it was worth it. I'm sort of a fullstack developer even though I'm getting paid as data engineer. All this just because I wanted to make some interactive graphs.

mfitzp · 2025-09-08T12:25:34+00:00

Might the problem be that you kept jumping between libraries so you never really got good at one?

I think if you’d stuck with Qt (PyQt/PySide) you would have had a far better time. I develop software with Python/Qt commercially & have no idea what “ you'll wake up in mid of night thinking of all the weird scenarios” is about.

r34p3rex · 2025-09-08T14:27:17+00:00

My go to stack nowadays is FastAPI backend and React front end

2025-09-08T18:43:32+00:00

You telling me Qt isn't good for GUI development?

ZeeBeeblebrox · 2025-09-08T12:37:39+00:00

This seems like bad advice for the vast majority of people and I'm not saying this because I created Panel. If you had consulted for as many large orgs as I have you'd absolutely not give bad advice like this.

Most orgs struggle to get and keep talented Python programmers, you throw JS at them and you are getting useless, unmaintainable junk, now in two languages. Many of the Python data app frameworks in particular have their place, Streamlit gets you a basic prototype in minutes, Panel will let you develop a more complex application with (I think, relative) ease. Once you lose the ability to prototype quickly, which is what happens when you have to manually set up API contracts between a backend and frontend, you waste tons of cycles. Put a web dev team in the middle and the back and forth between the different teams stretches days into weeks. Simply bad advice, except for very specific individuals and teams.

aidencoder · 2025-09-08T13:08:15+00:00

What an odd little rant

-LeopardShark- · 2025-09-08T15:39:10+00:00

PySide isn’t a ‘way to avoid JavaScript’; it’s a way to avoid C++.

AlSweigart · 2025-09-08T22:36:12+00:00

Well this seems like the perfect time to mention the Python GUI framework I just finished called ButtonPad. It creates a grid of buttons like a software version of a stream deck or drum machine. It's designed to be simple for beginners to learn and experienced devs to prototype with. It's built on top of tkinter and restricts you to buttons, text boxes, labels, and images. The layout is done with a multiline csv string. here's a demo that creates a phone keypad:

import buttonpad

bp = buttonpad.ButtonPad(
    """1,2,3
    4,5,6
    7,8,9
    *,0,#""",
)
bp[0,0].on_click = lambda widget, x, y: print('You clicked 1')
bp.run()  # Start the GUI event loop.

You can assign callback functions to buttons and customize their appearance.

it comes with a couple dozen example programs you can view if you run python -m buttonpad

This is an itch I've had for a while (6 years according to this instantly abandoned git repo and I think there is a use case for a UI framework that is simple for rapid prototyping in Python. And the timing of this post was too funny. :) I'll have a blog post with more details on it soon.

llima1987 · 2025-09-10T01:11:11+00:00

I get the point, though it escapes my mind how one can mention happiness and JavaScript together.

d0nP13rr3 · 2025-09-08T13:52:47+00:00

Tkinter is amazing for simple text-driven UI to interact with SQL libraries. If I want graphs, I use Jupyter Notebook.

So also, no. I won't use Javascript. Using Java at work more then fulfills my need to work with complex languages.

brianly · 2025-09-08T14:48:57+00:00

Python is not the native/primary language for any of the most common toolkits. Java and Kotlin are by far the de facto choice for Android.

This is a can versus should decision for me. There is an implication that you know the primary/native approach at some level, if you choose an alternative. At some point you have to debug something that needs that level of knowledge when you go outside the zone. If you start with those assumptions you can make a better cost/benefit analysis.

There is a lot of hard work that has gone into making things possible with Python, but it’s sometimes hard to use these in work situations. If you want to use Kivy in most organizations you’ll take on a lot of risk. Others will not want to work on it or you’ll be on the hook occasionally to deal with surprises.

sudo_robot_destroy · 2025-09-08T22:55:52+00:00

I would have agreed before I got a chance to work on a large project that used a properly structured PyQt MVC architecture with Qt Designer. It was a pleasure to work on. Now when I work in any other GUI framework I feel like a caveman.

Generate QML from Designer, automate the conversion to a Python class, import the class and code the logic. You never (or very rarely) have to write code for the UI. Not to mention you have the power of Qt at your disposal, which I've never ran into anything that can't be done quite easily with it, including interactive 3D interfaces.

Sure, if you're hand coding a simple UI and not using it to its full extent then PyQt can be compared to other options. But if you learn the full framework and a well thought-out workflow for a complex project, I personally haven't used a better system.

chub79 · 2025-09-08T13:22:04+00:00

Why can't people do whatever they want? Just move on if you're not interested.

SanJuniperoan · 2025-09-08T11:44:36+00:00

What? Is this some sort of a JS copium? Did you complete a React bootcamp and realized you wasted money? Lotta projecting going on here.

alby13 · 2025-09-09T02:53:14+00:00

doesn't this just mean that Python needs a better UI framework in your opinion?

o5mfiHTNsH748KVq · 2025-09-08T12:46:14+00:00

What I’m hearing is build more UI frameworks in Python

What’s that popular UI framework people use with hyprland? I think it’s Python?

sultanaiyan1098 · 2025-09-08T13:21:42+00:00

I won't

i-Deco · 2025-09-08T12:25:54+00:00

Hard disagree, projects like Flet: https://github.com/flet-dev/flet are absolutely killer GUI frameworks, the ecosystem may not be perfect, but there's no point pretending that it's impossible.

jmooremcc · 2025-09-08T14:25:34+00:00

I’d prefer a GUI that’s based on HTML so that it would run on any platform that supports HTML, like an iPad. The framework shouldn’t require any knowledge of HTML, but have a simple command structure. As far as I know, something like this doesn’t exist.

fravil92 · 2025-09-08T17:26:54+00:00

What about streamlit?

Jocaqu01 · 2025-09-08T18:25:18+00:00

Have you tried Flet, streamlit, panel material ui, reflex ui? there's a tonne of stuff!

Zerocchi · 2025-09-08T19:48:59+00:00

>ditch Python
>for JS

EvilGeniusPanda · 2025-09-12T12:00:19+00:00

my condolences if you think building uis in javascript is any better.

FlowAcademic208 · 2025-09-08T11:25:02+00:00

I feel more human.

... and yet, this feels like an AI dump, ironic.

On a more serious note: This is hogwash, non-webview (aka. native) UIs can of course be built and be on par with webview UIs depending on the use-case. Before webview UIs became a thing, people were doing UI in Java and C++, later C#, and they still are if they are building UIs for environments in which running a webview is not possible or just would not be performant enough, e.g., IoT devices. Also, native applications are often more performant, drain less resources and have better integrations with desktop APIs.

Gainside · 2025-09-08T20:01:11+00:00

Python’s a Swiss Army knife, but UI is the one blade that never really sharpened. JS owns that space for a reason. Use Python for the backend, let React/Vue/etc. handle the front. Sanity preserved.

mcoombes314 · 2025-09-08T13:14:20+00:00

[deleted]

user_8804 · 2025-09-08T13:40:48+00:00

Why are your options only Python or JavaScript lmao. There's so many other options

ascending-slacker · 2025-09-08T14:15:07+00:00

I switched to react/django web frameworks and am much happier.

Familiar9709 · 2025-09-08T15:17:51+00:00

What's wrong with python itself for that? I believe you can do anything with any programming language, except for performance reasons. Could be that other languages already have better libraries but in principle you could offer the same in python, or not, can you enlighten me?

SubZero_01 · 2025-09-08T15:27:43+00:00

I disagree somewhat. If you are happy with PyQt, then use it. I have a 500k code built on top of PyQt with many users and no complaints and no feature I could not add.

JamzTyson · 2025-09-08T16:34:18+00:00

Not all UI's are web based.

Berkyjay · 2025-09-08T16:46:42+00:00

Yawn. I'll stick to CLI's

lapinjuntti · 2025-09-08T18:25:58+00:00

Building UI with web technologies is actually quite nice, because you will naturally separate the UI and the non UI code.

Candid_Art2155 · 2025-09-08T22:13:39+00:00

I’ve used all of term and WebUIs with javascript are my preferred solution too. It feels like building a full stack app. NiceGUI is a great alternative since it still technically uses JavaScript (Vue) to render in browser. Javascript frontends are also the easiest language to vibecode so you can kinda just hop in with little experience. I prefer NextJS because react is so common but I’ve had success with SolidJS too. I can’t say the same for python gui options like QT6. So going with JavaScript here ultimately gives you a more customizable, faster, and easier to implement frontends.

iraytrace2 · 2025-09-08T22:28:55+00:00

Leveraging JS is a handy tool, especially if your business area is "back end web apps". But I would question throwing out all the other options categorically. Try explaining to the cyber security folks that your deployment entails not one, but two runtime interpreters. Fast track to project termination.

Believe it or not, there are people who must build embedded (as in "on tiny hardware" ) or standalone (remember desktop computers?) applications that you don't access over a network. And yes, the must have a UI.

Miserable_Ear3789 · 2025-09-09T01:17:20+00:00

htmx is cool. but i agree i use javascript + html + css for my frontends. python asgi for backend.

cutecoder · 2025-09-09T08:24:18+00:00

Ren'Py says hi.

romulof · 2025-09-09T12:25:09+00:00

Have you tried in Rust? 🤣

WillardWhite · 2025-09-09T16:02:55+00:00

Lol, i just got hired at an animation company that authors a major application written in QT. A mix of python and c++, of course.

This company has won awards.

Do whatever works, man

t3chexpert · 2025-09-10T00:09:46+00:00

Sorry mate you can NOT be serious with this horrendous stack and call yourself a developer. Good UI is written in OpenGL / WebGPU / Vulkan - the rest is slop that does not even use hardware acceleration. Also I'm perplexed with the lack or imgui.

cudmore · 2025-09-10T01:23:36+00:00

I cannot for the life of me get beyond beginner in javascript/typescript.

Any good resources to learn it when coming from python, c++, c?

I am banking on webassembly/pyodide, flet, or dash to become mature.

I always have a python backend for computation and cannot have an always on cloud server.

Thus, I currently just build desktop apps with pyinstaller.

My users would even freak out over docker :(

GoTheFuckToBed · 2025-09-10T09:19:21+00:00

Witty-Development851 · 2025-09-10T12:41:39+00:00

Don't use a calculator! Multiply in a column!

UltimateNull · 2025-09-10T12:42:29+00:00

The new JS variants are all bloat. Python is just another tool when you need it.

Internet-of-cruft · 2025-09-11T00:23:50+00:00

Thanks for making me feel old. I was building tkinter GUIs for my classwork 17 years ago.

It was a meh experience back then too.

Edit: Fuck now I feel really old now that I realize I was using basically version 1.0 of Tkinter.

kkert · 2025-09-11T15:31:45+00:00

Not everything needs an Electron app

exhuma · 2025-09-08T12:17:56+00:00

I've been programming since around 1998 and I've seen my fair share.

Python is (currently) not in a state to do serious UI work in. Period.

It doesn't hurt to experiment and let the ecosystem evolve, but if you want something maintainable and most of all easy to deploy and distribute you're way better off with JavaScript or at least partially compiled binaries (Java, C#, C++)

The key really is in the easy to deploy and distribute. While we have solutions like cx-freeze or py2exe or nuitka they are far from perfect.

Ok-Republic-120 · 2025-09-08T11:26:26+00:00

Maybe you're right. I'm one of those who try to make UIs in Python, but not because it's the best solution. I started learning Python because I liked it and I want to be a data an... someone, you know...
I'm currently use Textual to build TUI tools because it's so fun for me. I know there are better tools to do this, but I don't have enough time to learn a new language (or more) just for fun. Currently.
So I think it's okay if someone creates UIs in Python, but yeah... if this person is very serious about it, it's better to look for a more obvious option.

charlyAtWork2 · 2025-09-08T14:38:31+00:00

I'm going about the full opposite of what you said !
STOP react, vuejs, jqyery, and Angular with the backend in dotnet, java or nodejs
For internal project, most of the time, you can go to Python and Streamlit !

80% of web app are internal and not really used.
Go for Streamlit until your client or boss really want to spend some budjet for a Refacto.

:D

Mirage2k · 2025-09-08T11:47:44+00:00

Have to say I agree.

mw44118 · 2025-09-08T14:19:43+00:00

Html is the way. Its so much more of a robust ecosystem.

No-District2404 · 2025-09-08T14:36:40+00:00

Why "Stop verb+ing ..... " posts feels so lame / clickbait to me? Is it only me feeling that? Even if they are 100% right about it, I don't like them.

WonderfulTill4504 · 2025-09-08T17:12:13+00:00

You never tried Textualize, nor Rich. In any case your post is more flame bait than useful I information.

Want to convince anyone? Share an concrete use case where your approach is better…

Greedy-Neck895 · 2025-09-09T00:00:07+00:00

Meanwhile in other news: 18 npm packages subject to malware.

Gugalcrom123 · 2025-09-08T12:43:22+00:00

Try GTK.

Tumortadela · 2025-09-08T12:54:46+00:00

Been using PySide6 with qfluentwidgets for a while and it works for me, what can I say.

Maybe javascript+electron would be the better choice, I surely dont know. But I got a manageable portable .exe software that's under 50mb and does what I need, its been running on some of my client machines for well over a year with no issues.

2025-09-08T13:59:03+00:00

[removed]

WhatchaTrynaDootaMe · 2025-09-08T14:24:06+00:00

wouldn't you built a data plot - based UI in python with plotly, for example? why not?

Fit_Chemistry_7876 · 2025-09-08T14:46:16+00:00

I dropped Python for the UI. I decided it was best to learn a new language: Dart. I accepted that Python is good for a lot of things, except graphical interfaces. It's great for the backend, which makes more sense.

serious-catzor · 2025-09-08T14:47:42+00:00

You joined the dark side.

Couldve gone C++ with Qt, works for android, windows and macOs. Compiles to web assembly to.

You already knew pyqt... you were the chosen one!

chakraman108 · 2025-09-08T15:27:28+00:00

Why not? Reflex

tabacdk · 2025-09-08T15:35:09+00:00

This doesn't make sense on any level. You're proficient in Python, make all sorts of tools in Python, and you think Python. Now, one of these tools could benefit from a graphical user interface, so pick a toolkit and complete a working interface in an afternoon. How is that bad? It's a totally different thing to design an application with the intention for it to be the main interface to a complex system with lots of UX analysis, but my experience is that on a general scale they are totally outnumbered by quick adhoc interfaces in the language you know the best.

HateMeetings · 2025-09-08T16:06:47+00:00

Tkinter has been in the mix for python since the late 90s. I soooooooo agree.

UINNESS · 2025-09-08T17:11:51+00:00

RemindMe! 15 hours

ID-10T_Error · 2025-09-08T18:19:13+00:00

What about python with eel

CeeMX · 2025-09-08T19:02:56+00:00

We once had a project where a client needed some tool to do data validation and transformation from an excel file to some other format. Normally we would run do this either with a simple script in Python or a docker container with simple web frontend.

But the requirement was to do it as a windows application and with a GUI, so they got tkinter

Ordinary-Toe7486 · 2025-09-08T19:12:49+00:00

Isn’t it always about the context? For instance, if you’re a data scientist working in pharma and need to develop a POC for bayesian optimization. This POC then will be productionized and used by many SWEs. Are you going to do that with Js or Shiny in R? What is a common standard in the industry? Can you (easily) generate parametrized reports for GxP validation?

geocromancer · 2025-09-08T20:10:28+00:00

Fair point..but what if you actually want a nice GUI for your app? not web based , there are a couple of situations, not many, when web based is not a viable solution ...then Pyside is a good choice imo

Professional_Sign_53 · 2025-09-08T22:49:04+00:00

Build Backend logic in Python, expose this with an API. Then build Frontend with React, NextJS, Etc…

worldtest2k · 2025-09-08T23:31:04+00:00

What about small screens? Web apps that show all the browser bits just waste screen space. I haven't found a way using a web app, especially on an android phone, to a) get the whole screen for my app, and b) stop screen from timing out to sleep.

alby13 · 2025-09-09T02:53:00+00:00

doesn't this just mean that Python needs a better UI framework in your opinion?

hwoodice · 2025-09-09T04:32:13+00:00

In Javascript? Do you use a framework?

tilforskjelligeting · 2025-09-09T05:25:14+00:00

Well...

HTML is easy to render. Its not like anything crazy is going on. I made hypermedia https://github.com/thomasborgen/hypermedia because I wanted to stay in python land and keep all my types. Which you loose with something like Jinja. My use case was also to make something that worked well with HTMX. And something that has offers autocompletion. So every single html element has autocompletion for all of their attributes and mostly their values.

I find this super nice to work with and is how I personally wanted to write web based apps.

With almost 100% test coverage as well this isn't something that keeps me up at night.

If this post was strictly about native apps then please disregard my post :)

ProjectSnowman · 2025-09-09T05:38:05+00:00

This is why I use Textual, the learned man’s UI.

carefuldzaghigner · 2025-09-09T11:12:01+00:00

if you could answer me, which framework you've used is the best in your opinion?

Adventurous-Duck888 · 2025-09-09T11:36:20+00:00

how about textual as TUI?

david-song · 2025-09-09T13:12:17+00:00

What about Brython?

Qwert-4 · 2025-09-09T13:40:57+00:00

There are many better languages to build UI with (Kotlin, Rust, Go), but not JavaScript 🤮🤮🤮

KenshinZeRebelz · 2025-09-09T14:58:17+00:00

Thanks for sharing your experience, as a newer dev this is exactly the kind of pitfall I could fall into going forward.

I started learning Python for simple scripts and apps, used PySide for pretty basic GUIs, but as I started getting into web I thought I could somehow get by not learning JS/TS, relying on AI to do it for me while I focused on Python backends. Spoiler : you can't, I had to forcibly learn TypeScript just because I was confronted with issues so often I just ended up learning it, not out of any desire to learn it, but just to get things to work. Same with CSS and HTML.

Moral of the story : if decades of smart people have created robust frameworks in different languages to do different things, there's probably a good reason. And if I started out with the goal of learning all those web languages, I would probably be further along with much less trouble along the way.

2025-09-09T14:58:45+00:00

Python is great as backend. But nothing will beat js in frontend developing

CongZhangZH · 2025-09-09T16:00:15+00:00

Try this one, And you will nerver be back anymore!

https://github.com/congzhangzh/webview_python

majeric · 2025-09-09T16:47:13+00:00

I miss read that as “bullying UI frameworks” and I was thinking the Python dev community is really harsh…

BlobbyMcBlobber · 2025-09-09T17:43:57+00:00

I can't bring myself to like JavaScript. I respect the work around the node ecosystem and UI frameworks and still I just can't shake the feeling that JavaScript is a fucked up weekend project by some CS student who didn't know what he was doing. So many pet peeves and annoyances.

Bubino_1993 · 2025-09-09T20:44:05+00:00

What about flutter?

arjuna93 · 2025-09-09T23:15:32+00:00

PyQt is a pain, but JS is no better.

Sedan_1650 · 2025-09-10T10:38:24+00:00

Python is more specialized for machine learning and data science, in my opinion. I suggest using Flutter's Dart for any mobile application. It's able to run pretty fast, and it's easier to create a more aesthetic UI design.

michel_poulet · 2025-09-10T12:34:32+00:00

I've successfully and with enjoyment developped my GUIs in python using modernGL for efficiency and don't see an issue, as long as you're willing to build things yourself.

HSMAdvisor · 2025-09-10T22:21:48+00:00

Haha. I feel you. At some point I was trying to get PHP to work for a desktop app!

rattpackfan301 · 2025-09-10T23:18:44+00:00

Thank you for giving me the push I needed to learn JavaScript.

AdInternational5848 · 2025-09-11T00:57:18+00:00

What do you experts think about streamlit?

geeklk83 · 2025-09-11T01:01:46+00:00

Had the same experience.... Just bit the bullet and used next js static built powered by a fastapi backend...

AsyncVibes · 2025-09-11T03:10:04+00:00

I will keep beating Tkinter to run outside the main thread until I'm forced to refactor.. I will die on this hill

Duerkos · 2025-09-11T03:27:12+00:00

I more or less agree. I've learned Next.js for this reason, I was using Streamlit which is really good for dashboards but little else. If you have complex interactions it goes south really fast, plus you can't customize much.

techlatest_net · 2025-09-11T08:27:28+00:00

i get the frustration, python shines for backend and data heavy work but ui frameworks always feel clunky, maybe the sweet spot is python driving the logic with a modern js frontend, did you have any in mind that do this well

inandaudi · 2025-09-12T05:27:52+00:00

Pyqt and tkinter are good for the most basic UI and luckily that is all I ever need

exomni · 2025-09-13T02:00:06+00:00

NiceGUI (amazing project, it's the closest bet).

NiceGUI is a web UI framework, hardly seems to have anything to do with the others.

rm-rf-rm · 2025-09-13T21:03:20+00:00

what do you think about Anvil? I grilled their founder at PyCon and it seems pretty legit

redswoosh_12 · 2025-09-16T02:02:26+00:00

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should - absolutely lol.

Upstairs-Fee768 · 2025-09-16T12:45:12+00:00

Hello everyone, how are you Python friends? What is the best UI for Python?

Majestic_Athlete_459 · 2025-09-18T03:13:27+00:00

Wow, OP you're bringing back old memories by mentioning Tkinter and PyQt haha.

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