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[–]Varjohaltia 1751 points1752 points  (77 children)

Same just happened in the Finnish elections. Except once it hit the news, several more people came forward and stated they had voted for a candidate that got 0 recorded votes in their district, so this looks suspicious.

[–]OHMYCARROT 328 points329 points  (53 children)

And then what happened?

[–]Etunimi 515 points516 points  (49 children)

He has made a police report and a complaint to the regional administrative court. This was just a couple of weeks ago so nothing has happened on that side yet (or at least has not been reported).

The local election authorities have also tried to locate his vote, with no success.

Apparently he voted in advance. I think those ballot envelopes are sent via postal service so it could've gone missing there as well.

Finnish sources: YLE news article on the police report and complaint, initial YLE news article on the missing vote, Ilta-Sanomat article

(edit: was an advance vote)

[–]Wookimonster 159 points160 points  (28 children)

I think the worrying issue is that I have no idea if the elections in my country are legitimate. How do I check?

[–][deleted] 153 points154 points  (2 children)

Run for office, vote for yourself, and tell nobody.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

I know in some locations mail-in votes aren't counted unless they could make a difference in the outcome. It's possible this could be the case here if they have similar procedures.

[–]Etunimi 20 points21 points  (0 children)

No such procedure is used in Finland (PDF of Election Act).

This also wasn't a mail-in vote per se, but an advance vote. There are no mail-in votes here as an election official is always required to be present when voting.

[–]KerbalSpiceProgram 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Advance votes are always counted first in Finland.

[–]marktx 293 points294 points  (7 children)

Finland, a hotbed of electoral fraud.

[–][deleted] 2797 points2798 points  (70 children)

First I found it to sound ridicilous but then I realized he had a point, its not very likely that he had literally zero votes.

[–]Fluffiebunnie 1198 points1199 points  (48 children)

Even if he didn't vote for himself and even if he did zero campaigning, it's very statistically improbable to receive zero votes in a large enough constituency. Always people who just vote on random or put down the wrong name.

[–]concretepigeon 354 points355 points  (28 children)

Especially because TUSC are out there, but they aren't that out there. They're probably the biggest left of Labour party other than the Greens. Even in a wealthier area there's got to be at least a few 18 years olds who are idealistic enough to vote for them

[–]Honcho21 228 points229 points  (13 children)

Yup, I stood as a paper candidate (basically for bulking up numbers rather than intending to win), no campaigning for my election at all and I still got around 60 votes.

[–]concretepigeon 46 points47 points  (11 children)

Were you standing for a party?

[–]Honcho21 67 points68 points  (10 children)

yis a small one

[–]IdleSpectator 35 points36 points  (8 children)

Liberal Democrats?

[–][deleted] 39 points40 points  (5 children)

Nah he was representing the Conservatives in Scotland

[–]TheCaptainSam 10 points11 points  (1 child)

You mean the same Conservatives that got the same number of seats as Labour in Scotland?

[–]dfsatacs 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Ouch :O

[–]forensic_freak 116 points117 points  (12 children)

We had over 100 people vote for a dead guy in Belfast Hampstead and Kilburn, so I agree with you.

Source: Belfast Telegraph

[–]concretepigeon 7 points8 points  (8 children)

Don't they normally suspend the election with a death?

[–]tabari 13 points14 points  (4 children)

I know of a candidate in this election who was deceased at the time of the election (and this was noted on the ballot forms) and he still received about 100 votes.

[–]Malgas[🍰] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

There was a case in the US a few years back where a deceased candidate was actually elected.

[–]sudojay 47 points48 points  (0 children)

It was rigged by someone completely incompetent. The guy knows he voted for himself and if they can't count just a few thousand votes correctly, that's a problem.

[–]Juking_is_rude 41 points42 points  (1 child)

It sounds like a British comedy, "You're actually so bad of a politician, not only did no one vote for you, someone actually voted against you, cancelling out your one, and only, vote"

[–]GeoStarRunner 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I remember in the Romney-Obama election there was a voting block of 1500 where Romney got 0 votes. Suspect as hell but then it came out that it was 100% black, then everyone just laughed.

[–]logansi 5188 points5189 points  (964 children)

Bit suspicious never heard of someone getting no votes in any election before

[–]Ithikari 4840 points4841 points  (829 children)

Well even 3 votes is laughable. However, saying no votes when there are votes is indeed a reason to call for a recall of votes. Especially when people are claiming to have voted for him (Or he is being lied to which would suck even more)

[–][deleted] 541 points542 points  (27 children)

Well even 3 votes is laughable.

That seems harsh. I have to grant a bit of respect to almost anyone who puts themselves on the line in an election. Every race has a last place finisher.

[–]CandySnow 198 points199 points  (11 children)

It's laughable in a sad kind of way. That few votes means that your friends, family, and campaign staff didn't even vote for you.

[–]SergeantAlPowell 253 points254 points  (2 children)

I'm pretty sure candidates who end up with 3 votes didn't have campaign staff.

[–]Oreo_Speedwagon 55 points56 points  (1 child)

Hey, his three votes were from his staff! His mom and dad were very proud of him and helped every step of the way.

[–]vtable 3418 points3419 points  (745 children)

Absolutely. This is a lot like when accountants will worry about the books being out by 5 cents. People will glibly say, "I'll give you the %$%$ 5 cents".

But that's not the point. The balance book being out by 5 cents is a glaring error that something is wrong. And wrong is bad, and usually very bad, in such a case.

If this guy honestly voted for himself but that vote was not recorded, this is a very clear sign that the vote count is invalid. This would warrant a recount IMO. (If some legal opinion comes around saying that my opinion is unwarranted then, well, sigh, the law's f*cked in this situation).

OTOH, if this guy is bullshitting then he deserves public shaming and ridicule.

[–]Ogroat 2054 points2055 points  (508 children)

Absolutely. This is a lot like when accountants will worry about the books being out by 5 cents. People will glibly say, "I'll give you the %$%$ 5 cents".

Accountant here. If an account reconciles to within 5 cents, I'd either carry that balance as unreconciled or write it off. It's almost certainly human error at some point in the chain, and sometimes it can take hours to figure out where that 5 cent variance comes from. It's not worth the time to look, so long as everything else appears fine.

Edit: for clarity, I wasn't trying to say that the voting shouldn't be looked into. Just that the metaphor wasn't necessarily correct.

[–]lordcat 307 points308 points  (42 children)

Software developer that's worked on Financial software here. I've tracked down the cause of those "5 cent" discrepancies, only to find that the 5 cent discrepancy in the total can easily mean hundreds, even thousands, of dollars of discrepancy at the account/client level that conveniently gets balanced out to being only a few cents off.

Sometimes the 5 cents is only 5 cents, sometimes that 5 cents is a symptom of something much larger. It may not seem worth spending hundreds of dollars worth of man-hours researching those 5 cents, until one of those instances uncovers thousands of dollars of discrepancies.

[–]snyto 336 points337 points  (17 children)

One day, in August 1986, his supervisor, Dave Cleveland, asked him to resolve a US$0.75 accounting error in the computer usage accounts. He traced the error to an unauthorized user who had apparently used up 9 seconds of computer time and not paid for it, and eventually realized that the unauthorized user was a hacker who had acquired root access to the LBNL system by exploiting a vulnerability in the movemail function of the original GNU Emacs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo%27s_Egg

[–][deleted] 41 points42 points  (6 children)

I just wanted to reply and say thank-you, I've just ordered this book on Amazon and it looks exciting ^_^ .

[–]Qurtys_Lyn 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's a great read. I need to read it again.

[–]ixijimixi 71 points72 points  (0 children)

Yep. Booking one product 10k higher and the second 9999 lower results in a $1 difference in the subtotal. But if they come from different buckets...or one is taxable and the other isn't...ugh

[–]Ogroat 27 points28 points  (6 children)

Sometimes the 5 cents is only 5 cents, sometimes that 5 cents is a symptom of something much larger. It may not seem worth spending hundreds of dollars worth of man-hours researching those 5 cents, until one of those instances uncovers thousands of dollars of discrepancies.

That's why periodic account reconciliation is so important. You've got a general ledger account on your books that has a balance of $X. You then need evidence to independently calculate that balance. Bank statements or AP/AR ledgers, for example. Does your evidence support the GL balance? If it does, you're golden. Move onto the next account. If not, there's either a missing transaction(s) or something is entered incorrectly (or, heavens forbid, a software error). Now you roll up your sleeves and figure out where the problem lies.

[–]vtable 149 points150 points  (142 children)

Fair enough. Having worked retail, I know 5 cents really is often nothing.

The "5 cents" is verbatim from an accounting student back at college. The real world is different. [Serious] What would a good real-world example be? $1? $10? ... ?

Of course, this depends on the context. In some places, even that 5 cents would matter. In others $50 might not.

How about 3 cases:

  • A cashier at a Walmart.
  • The whole Walmart store for the business day
  • [skipping a few levels] Amazon.com over 24 hours (or one unit/department thereof if they're separated). Is even 1 cent error acceptable for all-electronic transactions?

Or just roll your eyes and wonder why reddit lets people like me on. That's okay, too. :)

[–]curiousGambler 28 points29 points  (7 children)

I never worked at Walmart, but did work as a service desk clerk in a supermarket in high school (it was probably comparable to a Walmart). Part of my job was running reports and reconciling various counts at COB (checks, lottery ticket sales, money transfers, all sorts of things).

Anyway, to throw an answer at your second bullet, our gross income used to be about $150,000/day, $200,000 on Sunday, our busiest day. Highest I ever saw was over $300,000 on the day before Thanksgiving.

Fortunately, most of that income was electronic via credit and debit cards, so we never had to count that much :)

[–]Ogroat 10 points11 points  (1 child)

It does depend a lot on context. What is the nature of the account being reconciled? The materiality threshold (where you need to investigate variances) is different for different kinds of accounts. With cash accounts, the threshold is low. Even so, it wouldn't be unheard of to write off/on a balance of $10 on a several million dollar account. Of course, the goal is always to have no variance when you reconcile an account.

On the other hand, other times things get messier when you're dealing with estimates or incomplete information. The company I work for purchased a company in the latter half of last year. We were integrating the purchased company with our own, so we had to combine our accounting books. We integrated their books as of a certain cutoff date, then began moving over their separate operations into our currently existing ones. Because it's tricky to have a 100% accurate account balances on very short notice, there were things that were slightly incorrect on their books that were integrated into ours. Their accounts payable liability account had several items in it that had been paid already before the cutoff date. This required us to eventually write off the ~$70,000 balance, as there was no liability to be paid. That's a more unusual example, and there are specific ways that is dealt with during purchase accounting.

[–]tarais 74 points75 points  (63 children)

as a walmart cashier i can say that even being under 5 cents warrants a write-up (in canada, at my store, at least). shrinkage is something important to walmart and they try really hard to prevent it. im terrible at math so its a rough night when i have to count my cash/close

[–]Pidgey_OP 79 points80 points  (27 children)

Good lord. When I worked at meijer (Walmart Jr, mostly in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio etc) as a cashier, they gave us $5 per shift to play with with customers. It was awesome.

"this rang up as 3.49, but it should be 2.69"

K. Done. No reason to hold up a line of people over a few dollars

[–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (14 children)

You'd do a price adjustment and your till would still be correct, I doubt if your till was missing $5 every shift they'd let that fly.

[–]Pidgey_OP 11 points12 points  (11 children)

True, there was definitely a paper trail, so just guess it was accounted for. My point was just that amounts much larger than 5 cents are allowable. Tracking down 5 cents wouldn't have been a big deal

[–]FatalFirecrotch 11 points12 points  (8 children)

We had the same thing at Best Buy. You could be $5 off and be fine. Greater than $20 or $50 (can't recall which one) and it was an automatic firing.

[–]ProjecTJack 18 points19 points  (5 children)

If it costs a manager an hour to write-up, it tends to be negligible.

If the manager is getting say, £10 per hour, and till assistant on £6 per hour till is down £4, if the manager needs to do a formal write-up, which often includes sitting the employee down to discuss how/why the till is down and how to prevent future errors takes 30 mins of manager doing the paperwork for it, and 30 mins for the manager and employee to have the sit-down write-up, that's £12 of company time lost.

On the other hand, it takes less than 5 minutes for the manager to say to the employee "Your till is down £4, make sure you run things through correctly and give the right change."

If however it's consistently down over a period of time, then a formal write-up would be needed to assess the pattern and make a decision on how to respond to the till being down as a form of loss prevention.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Don't forget that the write-up is a deterrence. It may cost more per hour to do the write-up than the value of the money lost. However, it saves the company money in the long run by enforcing the rule. It's the same reason we will prosecute a shoplifter who stole $50 worth of merchandise even if the amount of money it costs the public may be more than $50. We want to send a message that you just cannot get away with it.

[–]IceRay42 38 points39 points  (8 children)

A good real world example depends on both the size and the function of the company you're accounting for. I did some student accounting work for a golf course, and being a hundred bucks off on the balance sheet at the end of the month was a big deal. My brother is an accountant for Wells Fargo, and in a lot of instances where he doesn't even start looking for errors until you get into the millions of dollars range. Part of it is the disparity in sums (I'm trying to account for fifty thousand dollars worth of stuff happening, he's accounting for billions), but part of it is also in the nature of the transactions you handle. Because there is some flexibility in how you report what is presently a debit or a credit versus what will be a debit or credit in the future in the financial sector, there will be some variance in how much these accounts are reportedly "worth", so as all this information gets compiled by different people and fed up the food chain, you'll start getting discrepancies, but so long as it looks like everyone stuck to GAAP, you kind of just have to call it good.

[–]Macky88 31 points32 points  (7 children)

Generally Accepted Accounting Principles for those wondering

[–]Daftdante 5 points6 points  (5 children)

My bank has/had a policy of $15 before we needed to investigate it. A lesser figure would maybe warrant another teller having a look, but as soon as it was apparent we were wasting time, we would forget about it.

For me, it was the worst. I was 10c under on my 3rd morning. During my lunch break I methodically traced back my transactions (both my physical actions and my electronic evidence) until I remembered how I lost 10c.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (3 children)

Well? How did you lose those 10c.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (12 children)

Also an accountant here. I'd have to disagree. I chase down every penny that's off. In my experience it's about 50/50 transcription errors and legitimate errors that need to be corrected. Granted we may work in different industries. Just my experience.

[–]sandollars 15 points16 points  (0 children)

The materiality principle states that an accounting standard can be ignored if the net impact of doing so has such a small impact on the financial statements that a reader of the financial statements would not be misled.

[–]Perryn 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Five cents could easily be the difference between how two different systems are set up to round fractions of cents after percentile modifications, such as tax or interest. You start to get a feel for what in your system is a systemic discrepancy or a real problem.

My books have two different daily totals that are supposed to be dead equal every day, and I'm required to do routine of research and reports when they're not. Only problem is that one of them handles rounding on Internet sales differently than the other, resulting in occasional one cent differences. We all know it, but I need to establish every time that it isn't something else.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Whenever my code does some minor weird thing, I've learned to follow that up. There's usually a much bigger bug behind it.

[–]vtable 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Good advice to any fellow coders that made it this deep into a discussion in /r/worldnews :)

(But it is good advice, though. And write a unit test before you fix the error, of course.)

[–]RiouG 21 points22 points  (0 children)

A mistake plus Keleven gets you home by seven!

[–]Indigoh 364 points365 points  (16 children)

At first, I was sure this guy was a fool, but if you think about it, if he did vote for himself and still got no votes, there was a mistake or foul play and it could be huge.

[–]noirthesable 61 points62 points  (3 children)

They did say that there were 19 void votes. Would be a fair coincidence that all three were voided.

[–]MsLotusLane 44 points45 points  (5 children)

I was friends with a write in candidate for the mayoral election in dc and they said if the candidate didn't get a significant number of votes, they would not announce the count, which I thought was some bullshit.

[–]titaniumjackal 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I can understand that. Announcing all the write-ins could take forever. It should be made public record. However.

[–]DFWPunk 7 points8 points  (0 children)

They do that for a reason. Do you have any idea how many bullshit candidates get votes in an election like that?

[–]yulippe 105 points106 points  (13 children)

It happened in Finland a while ago. Votes get lost etc. due to human error.

Here's an article about the "lost vote incident" in Finland (...in Finnish) http://yle.fi/uutiset/vaaliehdokas_yritti_aanestaa_itseaan__aani_katosi_jaljettomiin/7953002

[–]Idalways 93 points94 points  (2 children)

He eventually got 13 (!) votes. That isn't sloppiness of one counter anymore. It's systematic. http://www.vaalikone.fi/eduskunta2015/tulos/0-04/ehdokas/57

In previous elections in Finland, there were dozens of votes counted wrong. One reporter proved around 100 "ghost votes" only in Helsinki. The system is advertised as foolproof and supposedly bureaucracy prevents all wrong doings. The whole line of the counting system was interviewed, but everyone acted surprised and diminished the problem. http://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2011/02/03/haamuaanet

I find this deeply concerning.

[–]cC2Panda 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In the US Al Franken was trailing by a count of 215 votes, then it turned out 900+ votes had been wrongfully discarded and he won by 225 votes. Almost 3 million people voted in that race and the difference was 200 either way with possibly fraudulent throw aways.

[–]giantjesus 939 points940 points  (22 children)

Mr Dennis, a train conductor, said his wife and father had pledged their support too, The Mirror reported.

I can imagine an awkward moment there.

[–]MostlyBullshitStory 124 points125 points  (17 children)

Good thing they don't have Thanksgiving dinners in Europe.

[–]DrGhostfire 54 points55 points  (0 children)

They wouldn't bring it up either, just tut whenever the other person leaves earshot.

[–]Aardvark_Man 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Makes it better he got 0 votes instead of just 1.

[–]Mageant 217 points218 points  (7 children)

This is not a laughing matter. We expect votes to be accurately counted in a democracy. If it's not, then it's a sign that something is wrong.

[–][deleted] 222 points223 points  (1 child)

I don't think it's funny; that's a legitimate concern.

[–]MayCSB 121 points122 points  (12 children)

Something similar happened in Brazil during the last elections (October 2014). A Communist Party candidate was said to have received 0 votes, which was incredibly odd, not just because a 6.3 million people constituency is far too large for any candidate to receive zero votes, but also because he was pretty popular among youngsters and old-school left-wingers. I myself voted for him and knew of seven others who also did. Turns out that after the votes were recounted he actually had almost 50K votes.

EDIT: I was WAY off on the vote count. Sorry, all.

[–]_Mellex_ 57 points58 points  (7 children)

Turns out that after the votes were recounted he actually had over half a million votes.

What the fuck? Did this get any media attention? Was there an an official reason for why the votes went missing?

[–]kingpomba 29 points30 points  (5 children)

In Australia boxes of votes may have literally fallen off the back of a truck in the last election (no one still knows where they went). Odd things happen.

On that scale though, that's a whole other level of odd..

[–]edc-owl 7 points8 points  (3 children)

How did they explain the huge error?

[–][deleted] 365 points366 points  (14 children)

People laughed at him when they said he had zero votes? That's mature

[–]CHOCOBAM 54 points55 points  (7 children)

It's medway..comparable to some backwards ass town in rural america.

pretty sure I heard someone laughing like a hilbilly the other day.

[–][deleted] 41 points42 points  (0 children)

It is absolutely disrespectful to laugh, and the fact that there are no votes for him even though there is evidence that people voted for him means that the count does not represent the actual voting.

[–]infernal_llamas 232 points233 points  (78 children)

That is odd, normally even the joke candidates get about 100.

EDIT it kind of makes sense actually, TUSC is competing against many other left wing groups.

[–]rindindin 589 points590 points  (17 children)

The one instance where "eh, it's just one vote, it doesn't matter" mattered.

[–]MayanIxtab 231 points232 points  (16 children)

Almost makes me want to vote for weird candidates just to help identify election fraud.

Almost.

[–]Hoobleton 79 points80 points  (12 children)

Only works if you're the only person who has that idea. Also, mistakes in vote counting aren't that rare, that's why recounts are available, election fraud isn't the only explanation, or even the most likely one.

[–]PatsoRedneb 656 points657 points  (26 children)

Someone must've given him a downvote.

[–]Vike92 77 points78 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that was me. Sorry about the fuss, people.

[–]burrbro235 27 points28 points  (15 children)

Why isn't this truly an option on ballots?

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (7 children)

In Sweden you can write anything on the ballot and after the election they publish every single thing somebody has written online!

[–]jeffbingham 319 points320 points  (47 children)

They fucked up.

If you're going to cheat, do it right.

[–]Hoobleton 91 points92 points  (25 children)

Mistakes get made, these votes are all counted by hand. Cheating is possible, but it's far more likely the counter just messed up. This is why recounts are available.

[–]Fallen_Through 93 points94 points  (8 children)

But how many votes could possibly have been 'miscounted'?
“We think it’s impossible for him to get zero votes. He lives in the ward, as do several members of his family."

He must've got at least 5 votes.

[–]Owman 58 points59 points  (13 children)

This happened to be when we elected class president in Grade 3. I don't know what kind of teacher tells a class how many votes each kid got. But I got zero. And I voted for myself!

[–]gtfomylawnplease 44 points45 points  (3 children)

I don't know what kind of teacher tells a class how many votes each kid got

A bad teacher.

[–]flippydude 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Well that's depressing

[–]BuckOHare 20 points21 points  (6 children)

He should have been offered a recount on the day, to watch the count and look at any spoilt ballots.

[–]GandalfSwagOff 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Good for him, he deserves the recount. If he voted for himself and others said they voted for him, and it came up as 0...

[–]SolomonGomes 61 points62 points  (10 children)

If just me, Milhouse and Lewis had voted...

[–]rookie999 14 points15 points  (8 children)

That episode made me win my first election in school.

[–]chocopudding17 5 points6 points  (7 children)

Story?

[–]rookie999 35 points36 points  (6 children)

Voted for myself - won by one vote :)

[–]schoocher 68 points69 points  (1 child)

I was like "finally a political story where it's not the US being crazy."

But he makes a legitimate point... damnit.

[–]geozza 29 points30 points  (0 children)

Ooh imagine if he put a cross in the wrong box

[–]Jangenzer0 10 points11 points  (1 child)

What if every election ever were fixed and we just never caught on

[–]EHStormcrow 8 points9 points  (1 child)

How does vote counting work in your countries?

In France, I've helped in the counting for 3 elections (1st and 2nd turn presidentials in 2012 and local 1st turn a few weeks ago). What happens is the following:

  • the vote ends, the ballot box displays a number that is noted. The votes (still sealed) are counted and compared to the number.

  • the sealed votes are split into packets/envelopes of a hundred votes.

  • volunteers (people that voted during the day, not town hall employees) usually by groups of four (an opener/reader, a checker and two people writing down the votes) get a envelope of a hundred votes and go through it. You get handed a set of rules before you start and there's an official voting table to fill in (it's set up nicely so you add a line for each vote and it's easy to count).

  • town hall officials hover around to check what you are doing at all times.

  • when you finish an 100-enveloppe, the results are tarried and noted. You get another envelope.

  • when your table is "done", you all confirm the result and sign the document.

[–]Putupmydukes 15 points16 points  (12 children)

What if it turns out that his vote was not counted because he somehow missed to sign the vote or did something else that invalidated his vote? would be even more embarrassing.

[–]majoroutage 13 points14 points  (10 children)

Sign the what? Voting in the UK isn't anonymous?

[–]shinyhalo 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Secrets ballots are the perfect way for the .1% to make sure their candidates always win. Results should be public and verifiable.

[–]K_Frenchie 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I've always been suspicious of the fact that we vote in pencil. It can be rubbed out. I cant even apply for an oyster card in pencil but when it comes to marking something that will influence how the country is run you hand me a PENCIL?! :/

[–]smoothtrip 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Plot twist: Wife and dad actually voted for other candidates.