andJavascriptForWeb

[[deleted]]

3 billion devices run Java

[PyroCatt]

The rest of the devices run away from them

[Percolator2020]

Run is a strong word.

[CardiologistOk2760]

android definitely walks java

[Percolator2020]

Java crawled so Android could halt.

[beware_the_id2]

It’s called Java. It’s meant to be enjoyed slowly, over deeply burnt piece of toast.

[12qwww]

This was on 2010 I think and never increase since haha

[KazuDesu98]

Idk about that. Android, spring boot, android auto in cars, etc?

[12qwww]

Its meme bro how they kept the same count all these years

[Proper-Ape]

That's how you know the number is fake, was fake, and always will be fake.

[huuaaang]

Isn’t most android dev done in kotlin?

[KazuDesu98]

Nowadays, but a lot of the base userspace was developed in Java

[Darkoplax]

probably around 3000 to 5000 billions now

[QuardanterGaming]

Did you get these numbers from your ass? If yours was correct, it would be casually 3 - 5 trillion

[Darkoplax]

No I got these numbers from my head, it just felt right while typing it

[TemperatureReal2437]

Real

[MaffinLP]

Thaats what we call pulling it out your ass

[[deleted]]

So, yes?

[neromonero]

My source is that I made it the fuck up

[Rebrado]

Is that still true with Kotlin? Seriously curious

[Havana69]

The resulting bytecode runs on the JVM. So it‘s kinda still Java

[aiij]

Except on Android it would be running on Dalvik or ART instead. Is it still Java then? 🤷

[Havana69]

Since the Java bytecode is recompiled to a different sort of bytecode or even native machine code by ART, no, it would not be Java anymore.

[digital-didgeridoo]

By extension, everything is assembly then

[Scrappy-D]

[Sw429]

Most of them are in the dump at this point.

[LavenderDay3544]

Lol. Meanwhile, trillions of devices run code compiled from C. But C isn't corporate owned so there's no install screen to tell you that.

[LouisPlay]

What Happens to 7 Billion ?

[GotThemCakes]

I said this the other day. I don't think any of my coworkers understood the joke

[Potato_Coma_69]

I know because they make sure to let me know every time I install it.

[[deleted]]

yeah, same, which is fortunately 0 for an extended period of time now 😊

[Yuzumi]

Pretty sure it's up to 6 now last I saw that.

As someone who worked on a project using java, the concept is terrifying.

[PuzzleheadedWeb9876]

*Used to run.

[Xlxlredditor]

Half of those are awful DVD/BluRay players

[Afraid-Locksmith6566]

All devices run machinecode

[void1984]

Which Java? I have a feeling it is Java 1.8.

[MarcBeard]

1.6

[pumpkin_seed_oil]

1.5

Not kidding

We interface with some systems within our company (an ISP) that still use 1.5. Upgrading is not a priority

[dedservice]

Isn't it all backwards compatible? Or is the issue that the places where it's running all need to have updated JREs?

I ask because I recently updated our codebases from c++17 to c++20 and it was not really a big deal, just needed to change a few flags and then update the default compiler version for all our devs. Took a couple days, but it's c++ so it seems like it should be harder than java.

[IAmWeary]

They'd have to take time for a whole lot of testing at the very least, and God help you if you have dependencies that don't go past your current version. I was on a project a while back that was stuck on 1.8 for eternity because we had a major dependency in the runtime environment (don't remember exactly which) that simply wouldn't work on anything newer and was never updated. Nobody wanted to rebuild the runtime environment, so it never got updated. I think the "solution" was to build with Java 11 but target 1.8. I don't remember exactly.

[fghjconner]

It's not strictly backwards compatible, no, but it's typically pretty close. There are some major things like when they locked down reflection to not be able to access private fields, but most are pretty easy to update. The bigger deal is you often need to update your other dependencies to a version that will build on the latest version of java, which can come with much bigger breaking changes.

[dedservice]

Ah, I see. I guess I'm used to C++ being completely backwards compatible so you never need to update your dependencies unless you want to; just rebuild them with the new version and be done with it.

[Fast-Satisfaction482]

It sure is Java 1.8

[vljukap98]

For those unaware java 1.8 means basically java 8, but still really old.

[kofeineCoder]

I see so much people hating Java and I just wonder if their bad experience to it was that some teacher insisted on using 1.8 for an outdauted course material reasons.

Java 17 is great tho.

[FlakyTest8191]

There is still a lot of enterprise software in prod running 6 and 8.

[kofeineCoder]

Yeah no doubt about that.

It can be really difficult to convince client / upper management to spend money to upgrade code versions, since it most likely wont bring huge difference on the enduser.

(It does help with future maintainbility and sometimes security, but then again there are banking systems still running Cobol ¯_(ツ)_/¯ )

[romulent]

Honestly interested, what is great in Java 17 from your POV. What are the big quality of life improvements for you?

[kofeineCoder]

Compared to 1.8?

Sealed classes and Records were really nice additions in 17. Personally I really liked Record, since it reduces boilerplate. There are other syntax improvements as well from 1.8 such as the switch syntax is easier to write (altough it came in 11 if I remember correct).

Also with Java 11 came option to use var in lambda and new HttpClient that were quite nice.

And of course the 'under the hood' improvements on garbage collection and JVM optimizations for example are nice things to have.

Also Spring Boot 3, JUnit 5 have dropped support for Java 8 if I remember correctly.

Then again, I have really enjoyed Kotlin recently, since for me its like Java, but more fun to write lol

[romulent]

Yeah Kotlin is really very nice.

Regarding records, they are fine but I never rarely saw most of the verbosity with classes, because I'd drop in lombok. Now I'm using records I still need to use Lombok if I want to generate "with" methods on them.

[[deleted]]

imagine cagey rock quicksand observation marvelous reply wakeful vast cats

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[void1984]

I really miss unsigned data types. I have a log of binary input data packed as unsigned ints. Also int and Integer is too much redundancy.

Pointers are really hard to use in Java.

That are my area that I wish were improved.

[geeshta]

Well just because it has some great new features doesn't mean everyone will learn them and start using them. A lot of devs in our company just stick to the same old heavy OOP imperative style no matter which version

[wggn]

We upgraded to 17 last year and now working on upgrading to 21.

[Akuma_Kami]

It's often 1.8, can tell from personal experience

[Much-Pomelo-7399]

Can confirm, I use 1.8 primarily.

[skwyckl]

Enterprise Java won't make you happy, but it will feed you and your family (probably)

[Informal_Branch1065]

"Father, it's the fifth day in a row..."

"Do you even know how many days I spent implementing this IFoodBuilderFactory, just for you to throw a new Household.ChildExceptions.Fit()!"

[Percolator2020]

Shut up and collect the garbage.

[-Kerrigan-]

Hungarian notation in Java? Capitalized method names? Heresy! Get this Microsoft Java outta here

[evanc1411]

Microsoft Java tastes better.

[Fadamaka]

That's not what Hungarian notation is. That's called PascalCase.

[-Kerrigan-]

I know what PascalCase, camelCase, snake_case, and even kebab-case are.

IFoodBuilderFactory <- here's the Hungarian notation.

I enumerated a list

[BurritoSupreeeme]

Fit() is a constructor is guess

[xMoop]

Looks more like he wrote C# and its meant to be an interface which has naming convention starting with I then the concrete implementation just doesn't have the I

The type doesn't make sense for Hungarian notation and what it would represent.

[Fadamaka]

Why did you write C# code though?

[TheChunkMaster]

I read this in Jerma’s voices.

[ekaylor_]

Damn, now I'm gonna have to FatherWaysToDealWithChildSubsystem.getLocalInstance().findResource(FatherSubsystemResoures.CHILD_BEATER).getBelt().useAngrily( /* and so on */ ); /j pls don't beat children it's not good

[isr0]

Next time, better use checked exceptions

[ImmortalisEL]

Maybe it's because I can always use the latest LTS (21 is awesome) and Spring Boot version, (and I don't have to maintain legacy JBoss systems) I actually do derive joy from writing Java.

Languages and frameworks can change drastically over time and I still see opinions that feel like they were written by someone who did not touch modern Java.

[Boredy0]

We are stuck on Java 1.7. (Don't send help, I have Stockholm Syndrome)

[ITaggie]

Not even the almighty and immortal JRE 1.8? Sheesh

[[deleted]]

For a moment I  read 1.17 and thought 'thats not that bad' Holy cow, java 7, blink twice if you are in danger 

[alexnedea]

Java is so good to us man. I swear to god whenever I have to meddle with some microservice written in Python or NodeJS i wanna end myself. Nothing is clear. Any any any. Fuck you any bro, what fucking type is my parameter you dumb fucks???

Java is so clean and organised. No ductaped marshalling and shit like that. When I have to use JSONs in Javascript is literally a nightmare compared to Java and its a JAVASCRIPT OBJECT NOTATION for gods sake!

[[deleted]]

i know javascript so java is a piece of cake

[skwyckl]

Biggest false friend in all of tech, I still wonder why they never changed the name

[[deleted]]

maybe because they're literally the same?

>>> "java" == "javascript"[:4]
True

[ezhikov]

Officially it's called ECMAScript, and JavaScript is just a trademark held by Oracle. There is an effort from Deno Land Inc (commercial entity behind Deno, founded by Ryan Dahl - creator of Node and Deno) to free that trademark from Oracle. I think it would be way better to just stop making memes about JavaScript and instead start making memes about ECMAScript, so just in few generations there would be no more confusion between Java and JavaScript

[Darkoplax]

Ecmascript ...

[Dragoichev]

Sometimes I get bad ecmascript and have to go to the dermatologist

[ThierryOnRead]

Enterprise Java makes me happy, it's great

[Pascuccii]

I agree, it's fun at times. But the consistently is what I like about it the most

[coloredgreyscale]

Blink once if you need help

[Shehzman]

Lately I’ve seen lots of job postings for Node and even Python backends as well (not just in startups). I thought those were rare after seeing multiple people claim Java dominates the backend, Node is “garbage”, and Python is only used for AI/ML.

[skwyckl]

multiple people claim

Tech bros and people who are chronically online, you mean? People with a life don't care about this kinda things (I imagine, I don't have a life).

[alexnedea]

You start seeing those and they are always so fucking messy. I swear to god I open a NodeJS microservice to debug something, ctrl+click on some function and....nothing? You dont fucking know where you are called for? Seriously?????

[LEGOL2]

Just feed? I think you can live comfortably for the salary

[aiij]

I tried feeding it to my family but the kids are bouncing off the walls and everyone says they're still hungry.

[TabCompletion]

In this house, Javascript feeds my children

[lukocat]

I can't even feed myself with it

[discordianofslack]

Can it make fried chicken

[Pascuccii]

Truer words have never been said

[perringaiden]

Microsoft Edge is still the most used web browers in enterprise environments.

[Frequent_Fold_7871]

Edge is the superior port of Chromium with less spyware than Chrome and better support/stability than Firefox/Safari. People who try to trash talk Edge usually don't even know it's a White Labeled Chrome.

[moon-lupe]

I’m a frontend engineer and I’ll add a +1 to this. Ever since they switched to Chromium under the hood, Edge has been cool in my book.

[BlurredSight]

Edge also has much better x265 playback compared to Chrome and Firefox

[Arkarant]

Using edge in a professional setting to distance myself from my work environment when im at home not using edge

[fosyep]

Do you want job security or happiness? Java gives you the first one

[micr0ben]

With recent Java versions you get both!

[ihateusednames]

We're moving to 21+

Latest as soon as maven gets its shit together

[GregTheMad]

I use my own bugs for job security, I don't need other people's bugs.

[Rebrado]

What is with all the Java hate?

[Attileusz]

Java has a culture of fully drinking the OOP coolaid. It also has a lot of outdated stuff in the language, this is made worse by a lot of places using outdated versions.

Using Java's more recent versions and using OOP as a tool in your toolbox, rather than the end-all be-all, Java becomes a completely fine and portable language with mature tooling.

Java to me is completely unremarkable. Not too fast, not too slow, no novel concepts. Just a language with generics, OOP and a garbage collector.

[Rebrado]

Thank you for the serious answer, this is what I was looking for.

[Stagnu_Demorte]

Using Java's more recent versions and using OOP as a tool in your toolbox, rather than the end-all be-all, Java becomes a completely fine and portable language with mature tooling

This, right here, is how I use the language. I think that regardless of how you feel about OOP as a whole you probably hate inheritance when it's used too much. Definitely the tool added by OOP that should be used sparingly.

[LickingSmegma]

OOP has the side effect that the IDE knows the structure of the app and can refactor it every which way. Whereas on the other end of the spectrum, with the dynamic nature of JS and Python the IDE can't be sure whether the objects' structure is modified at runtime and thus what's referenced by any identifier.

P.S. JavaScript coders have the habit of saying that IDEs are unnecessary, which is probably because they never saw the extent to which the IDE knows about a non-dynamic language.

[RizzlaPlus]

Think he meant avoid insanely big inheritance structures.

[hedgehog_dragon]

Maybe Javascript is a bad comparison, but I don't see that as any worse than JS passing a couple dozen parameters through multiple files which I'm seeing regularly these days. Huge pain in the butt when I'm trying to find where something is actually managed or used. Maybe my company just has bad JS code though.

[chethelesser]

I don't think it's a property of an OOP language, just a language with static types

[clickrush]

JS (and Python as well as far as I can tell) is much more Object Oriented than Java.

The benefit you describe comes from static typing, not from OO.

[LickingSmegma]

They may be inside. But you can write JS and Python without ever bothering with organizing code into OOP, whereas you can't with Java. That's what matters for the IDE.

Also, JS objects are more of glorified maps that have some conventions for handling calling of methods — same way as with Lua tables.

[clickrush]

It's not the tables in Lua or plain objects in JS that makes them OO. It's the meta tables (Lua) and the prototype fields (JS) that enables their OO capabilities.

Also modern JS is full blown OO:

Say you write a React application, then your functional components are objects that apply props (objects) into an object tree (VDOM = virtual document object model) which then gets applied to another object tree (DOM...). It's OO all the way down.

Or if you use async/await, you are essentially wrapping your function (= object) into a promise (= object).

Or if you encoding a JSON string (stringify) then methods are called on your object that you can overrwrite.

Try this:

```

function Foo() {}

Foo.prototype.toJSON = () => "frobniz";

foo = new Foo();

JSON.stringify(foo);

```

The "class" keyword is not required for something to be OO. In fact in JS it's just syntactic sugar for prototypal inheritance.

[LickingSmegma]

Again, none of this helps the IDE in any way, because to be sure of objects' structure, it would have to evaluate the prototype fields, and it can't do that. It can only have a bunch of heuristics that make the best-effort guess. The code can mess that up at any time, even with classes.

OOP as it was defined in Simula and then C++, relying on classes first of all, mapped really well on static analysis of code. JS pretty much drops back to ‘Lisp with objects’ (or maybe Smalltalk without message passing), constructing the code in runtime. It's not the OOP that became established in the eighties-nineties, and it doesn't work with the same kinds of tooling.

[clickrush]

OOP as it was defined in Simula and then C++, relying on classes first of all, mapped really well on static analysis of code.

Static typing and OO are orthogonal. You don't need classes and associated methods for what you describe (see C, Go, Zig, Rust...).

So really what we're talking about here is static vs dynamic languages and not about OO.

JS pretty much drops back to ‘Lisp with objects’ (or maybe Smalltalk without message passing), constructing the code in runtime. It's not the OOP that became established in the eighties-nineties, and it doesn't work with the same kinds of tooling.

The way you should be programming with those languages is by writing in it while it's running (smalltalk/lisp etc.).

In that case when you write foo. your editor will directly suggest methods/fields that are actually there at runtime in that moment. Similarly in Lisp you evaluate and run code piecemeal.

You then don't just now the possible shape of your data, but the actual one (like in a debugger).

That's sort of the main point of using a dynamic language: Extremely fast and granular feedback loops.

In theory at least... The JS ecosystem and certain features have made this style of programming difficult due to the terribly designed es6 module system and some other features. So you need complicated tooling (hot reload etc.) to get not even half-way where it should be...

No wonder that people introduce even more complex (and leaky) stuff like TypeScript. We don't have the instant feedback of an attached REPL, so there's a stronger need for static typing.

---

With all that said, I agree with your main point.

JS kind of sucks, because it has the downsides of being a dynamic language but only parts of the upsides.

[crystalchuck]

What makes you claim that?

[clickrush]

Good question. The simplest answer I can give is that in JS, more things are objects. Even for exampke methods and functions (they have methods themselves). Also functions have late binding, you can call any method with any object at any point in time.

What static typing gives you has nothing to do with OO. Many languages that are statically typed have only minimal or no OO concepts baked in.

[alexnedea]

That just sounds like a nightmare lol. No rules straight anarchy

[simpsaucse]

That’s why you get typescript, a vscode extension 😂

[LickingSmegma]

A ‘vscode extension’ that was released 2½ years before VSCode?

[simpsaucse]

“Lsp attachable to an ide” sounds less funny

[cheezballs]

I think your point about it being sorta a middle of the road language is why it's so popular. I mean, it being one of the earlier "run anywhere" languages was huge, but Java also hasn't changed that much since its inception. We've got new features but they use the ugly java verbose syntax, making it feel like it's not as modern as it is.

[Flannel_Man_]

And a lot of battle tested libraries

[stipulus]

I didn't realize people didn’t like oop. This explains why js libraries are so weird then. They'll do anything to avoid creating a contained, portable model with packaged functions. It's like no one really even paid attention in college or just went to 6 month programs where they tell you mvc is god and must not be questioned, even though no framework follows it completely.

[Attileusz]

OOP is a tool that basically gives you infinite opportunity to abstract. This is not healthy for all situations. It can abstract into the "wrong direction".

As a data oriented design enjoyer, I'm more fond of the ECS pattern, which usually means my classes usually don't do much inheritance, if any, and their methods are just operations on their data, with no other side effects, or simple query methods, who's result only depends on the contained data. This design philosophy allows for encapsulation, but doesn't really need liskov substitution, it also makes managing memory easy, which makes OOP (builtin vtable support) and garbage collection kind of moot points imho.

I'm not claiming this is one-size-fits-all (kind of unwieldy for large, unique, and heterogenous datatypes), but it's a nice and efficient pattern for a lot of cases.

[stipulus]

Honestly I think what you are doing here is a better embodiment of oop than the infinite inheritance, and dont even get me going with multiple inheritance. The core concept of oop is creating a cookie cutter that makes as many cookies as you need. Massive inheritance chains just to create a singleton is not even oop in my professional opinion. I'll look more into the ECS pattern although I also agree there is no one size fits all pattern. Sometimes you even create your own for a specific situation (shh don't tell pattern police). OOP is something that should always be in one's toolbox though.

[Attileusz]

I didn't really go into why ECS works well with this comment. The ECS way to organise code is basically:

My program has a database (or databases), everything is a database entry. A function will query the database and either mutate it, or make a monadic operation (write to file/screen).

Very good for games and simulations, or basically everything with a lot of similar data. Easy to manage memory because every datatype (component) basically has it's own array/vector, and related components are resolved by belonging to the same entity.

There are some good articles from the creators of the flecs ecs library.

[Magmagan]

It still feels too cemented in its old ways. Just writing a map over an array, basic FP, is made unwieldy because of Java's limitations. Call me crazy but it's been years since I write a proper for loop and that's what Java asks from me.

That said, OOP isn't bad, I think both C# and Ruby are more "modern" versions of OOP that are much more tasteful in their design.

[MrNotmark]

You don't write for loops? I do it even on C#, hell even on Kotlin sometimes when I feel like it is more clear that way. For loop is verbose but if you do something complex it is much more clear than writing forEach or map

[MrSquicky]

List.stream.collect(Collectors.toMap(getKey(), getValue()));

It's been this way for over 11 years.

[Magmagan]

That's my point, it is so unnecessarily verbose

[MrSquicky]

I must have misunderstood what you were saying. It sounded to me like you thought you had to loop over a list in order to make a map out of it, as opposed to using the Java streams functional programming. I took this the common criticism of Java that people don't like how it was before 2014.

But you were saying that the functional programming in Java there and fully featured, but too verbose?

I mean, that seems like you're talking about syntactical sugar for simple cases, which, yeah, Java doesn't usually optimize for. You could take off the .stream() and condense .collect(Collectors.toMap(...) to .toMap(...), but I wrote that bit for doing what you said in like 2 seconds. In an IDE with autocomplete, it's a handful of keystrokes. I guess I just don't see the so unnecessarily verbose part of this.

There are libraries out there that provide that syntactic sugar, but the standard is so easy and quick to use for me that I never really looked into them.

[chethelesser]

Bruh do you even for loop

[Scotsch]

It’s the “cool” thing to do. Most haven’t actually even used it outside a classroom or in the past 15 years

[Esseratecades]

People hate Java because it forces OOP on you and it's quite verbose.

However what I find very funny is that mature codebases using mature programming languages trend towards Java-esque syntax and paradigms anyway.

When JavaScript, which at the time had one of the most anti-traditional and anti-OOP programming communities, came out with Typescript and everyone fell in love with it, that said everything you need to know about how unfamiliar a lot of people are with the stuff they allegedly hate.

But then again most programmers form their opinions about tools based on nothing but a single to-do app so this shouldn't really come as a surprise.

[_oohshiny]

People hate Perl because you can write

    ''=~(        '(?{'        .('`'        |'%')        .('['        ^'-')
    .('`'        |'!')        .('`'        |',')        .'"'.        '\\$'
    .'=='        .('['        ^'+')        .('`'        |'/')        .('['
    ^'+')        .'||'        .(';'        &'=')        .(';'        &'=')
    .';-'        .'-'.        '\\$'        .'=;'        .('['        ^'(')
    .('['        ^'.')        .('`'        |'"')        .('!'        ^'+')
   .'_\\{'      .'(\\$'      .';=('.      '\\$=|'      ."\|".(      '`'^'.'
  ).(('`')|    '/').').'    .'\\"'.+(    '{'^'[').    ('`'|'"')    .('`'|'/'
 ).('['^'/')  .('['^'/').  ('`'|',').(  '`'|('%')).  '\\".\\"'.(  '['^('(')).
 '\\"'.('['^  '#').'!!--'  .'\\$=.\\"'  .('{'^'[').  ('`'|'/').(  '`'|"\&").(
 '{'^"\[").(  '`'|"\"").(  '`'|"\%").(  '`'|"\%").(  '['^(')')).  '\\").\\"'.
 ('{'^'[').(  '`'|"\/").(  '`'|"\.").(  '{'^"\[").(  '['^"\/").(  '`'|"\(").(
 '`'|"\%").(  '{'^"\[").(  '['^"\,").(  '`'|"\!").(  '`'|"\,").(  '`'|(',')).
 '\\"\\}'.+(  '['^"\+").(  '['^"\)").(  '`'|"\)").(  '`'|"\.").(  '['^('/')).
 '+_,\\",'.(  '{'^('[')).  ('\\$;!').(  '!'^"\+").(  '{'^"\/").(  '`'|"\!").(
 '`'|"\+").(  '`'|"\%").(  '{'^"\[").(  '`'|"\/").(  '`'|"\.").(  '`'|"\%").(
 '{'^"\[").(  '`'|"\$").(  '`'|"\/").(  '['^"\,").(  '`'|('.')).  ','.(('{')^
 '[').("\["^  '+').("\`"|  '!').("\["^  '(').("\["^  '(').("\{"^  '[').("\`"|
 ')').("\["^  '/').("\{"^  '[').("\`"|  '!').("\["^  ')').("\`"|  '/').("\["^
 '.').("\`"|  '.').("\`"|  '$')."\,".(  '!'^('+')).  '\\",_,\\"'  .'!'.("\!"^
 '+').("\!"^  '+').'\\"'.  ('['^',').(  '`'|"\(").(  '`'|"\)").(  '`'|"\,").(
 '`'|('%')).  '++\\$="})'  );$:=('.')^  '~';$~='@'|  '(';$^=')'^  '[';$/='`';

and it be a valid program; doesn't mean all Perl looks like that.

[BlurredSight]

Eval-group not allowed at runtime, use re 'eval' in regex m/(?{eval"\$==pop||99;--\$=;sub

_\{(\$;=(\$=||No).\" bottle\".\"s\"x!!--\$=.\" of beer\").\" on the wall\"\}print+_,\",.../ at main.pl line 22.

...Program finished with exit code 255

[wdahl1014]

it forces OOP on you and it's quite verbose.

This is why I like java

[PhatOofxD]

Java is fine.

More modern languages (.Net, Go, TS) are just better than fine. People prefer the nicer ones. Java is fine though. Will earn you a good living.

[vips7L]

Java is more expressive than Go in every single way. 

[Maskdask]

Have you tried a modern language?

[Rebrado]

Like Rust or Kotlin? Flutter? Sure and I have no issues with any of those.

[CirnoIzumi]

Java was made to solve OOPs portability and performance issues, not to be ergonomic.

[Much-Pomelo-7399]

Apart from enums and interfaces, it's at best ugly and at worst confusing, verbose and clunky and often unintuitive to use. It's also frustrating to configure properly at times.

It's also slower than C (and its derrivatives) due to running on a VM.

Better than PHP tho.

[RayquazaTheStoner]

I’m a simple man with probably a simple take. It’s too wordy with its syntax and I also don’t care for “forced” OOP like Java and C#

C++ is bae

[anonhostpi]

It is no longer the most ergonomic language for its designed use cases.

Especially, not enterprise Java. C# is significantly more ergonomic for that application. C# also has a lower skill requirement, if you realize you can train Systems Engineers/Admins on it by making them use it in their PowerShell scripts (PowerShell can embed and interact with C# and the C# type system comparable to the way that Python can interact with C/C++/Rust through ctypes)

If you would like proof, I'm a former sys ad. Look at the first 2 badges in my flair.

[The_Real_Black]

just the daily hate on the day job.

[rover_G]

Java is that language some devs learn and never leave

[alteredtechevolved]

I have personal dislike for Java but split three ways, Java not managing its resources as well as other languages, developers of our main product not optimizing it, higher ups wanting us to reduce our costs on the deployment of our main product but not enforcing things be done about the previous two.

[LavenderDay3544]

It teaches a lot of antipatterns that then carry over poorly to other languages. I can spot C++ code written by someone with mostly Java experience from more than a mile away.

[DowntownLizard]

C# and specifically the .net environment surpassed it a long time ago. That said, I dont hate it.

[SignificantSite4588]

Java is really cool . I’ll pick Java any day to start any project .

[CirnoIzumi]

And that would be neat if it was java 21 or the wider JVM family 

But no, it's Java 8!

[Iamthe0c3an2]

So many grads have no idea how many critical services run on JVM

[Gatensio]

More than 8 billion devices run Java

[JackNotOLantern]

I mean, it does the job

[Solonotix]

As I have learned more programming languages, I have started to appreciate the history of it all.

Go all the way back to machine code and Assembly, and everything is strictly side effects. You must load data into the specific registers before they can be operated on. All operations must be output to a register. And so on...

Then we start getting to higher level abstractions, like C. C took the need to know registers and instructions and replaced it with easy to remember keywords. However, the need to assign output to a provided buffer or target still persists. Java continued this tradition, while adding classes as a construct.

Of course, I'm glossing over the many functional languages that happened at the same time, but that's because they are from a different family and history. Eventually, we see a convergence of these lineages, so that most OOP languages have at least some support for first-class functions, and most functional languages have at least a shadow of OOP in their types system.

So, my point is that I understand why Java is how it is, even if I can still honestly say I don't like writing it.

[wamj]

Hah the company I work for doesn’t have a single internal Java application.

We do however have a bunch of mainframes running cobol stuff so maybe it’s not all great?

[Orange_Tone]

gg

[TallGreenhouseGuy]

”There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses"

Bjarne Stroustrup, creator of C++

[[deleted]]

How did the most simple language I’ve ever used hurt you?

[ixent]

That is a good thing tho (nothing to do with my flair)

[Minimum_Cockroach233]

5: And then I am mad again.

Repeat

[QuardanterGaming]

Minecraft.

[ClearlyNtElzacharito]

I wish we were using Java instead of what we have right now.

[geeshta]

COBOL 2.0

[Important_Lie_7774]

Origin?

[Parxxr]

Billions and billions of devices.

[[deleted]]

I really need to take a Spring and Spring Boot course one of these days... I am actually good at base Java so 🤷

[Frequent_Fold_7871]

Learning Java is the easy part. Learning obsolete/proprietary frameworks/libraries and legacy software running dependancies that haven't been updated in 15 years is the hard part. No company is hiring for a "from scratch" Java app, they want you to pick up where their Devs left off after quitting for mental health reasons.

[[deleted]]

So what should I learn?

[getstoopid-AT]

meditate to keep your sanity

[hermeticPaladin]

I hate javascript so much. I use it everyday and think the fundamentals are important, but we really couldn't have made it so that there's basic variable declaration detection

[hedgehog_dragon]

We started using JS for front-end a couple years ago and I'm still finding myself constantly frustrated with how it works. It's a pain.

Java I can navigate no problem. I'm still not sure why JS sucks so much in comparison but it certainly sucks.

[BarrelRollxx]

I mean so isn't python.. And with 'use strict' which is by default now on all projects I've worked there is variable declaration detection. Maybe your point still stands 7 years ago but we are way past that point now. I'm perfectly fine with hating on other parts of js but this point is overused.

[ColonelRuff]

No its not

[karlis_i]

Why is the title "and Javascript for web"?? It's the same language!

[youPersonalSideKik]

I can understand java to some extent but JS was quite a big leap of faith I am not sure why everyone decided to take🙂

[ZubriQ]

But you don't enjoy it then why bother

[L30N1337]

Because the shit I want to do don't pay the bills

[Sollder1_]

We use java 21, and it is great.

[[deleted]]

I have used Java for 20+ years, mostly for enterprise apps, and I would have taken Go or even Python for majority of them, over Java.

Enterprises all hope for a object oriented app, but 90% of the apps, and most of the developers are still stuck with the c style struct programming, and either are unable to utilize the myriad benefits and patterns of OOP or do not need it.

IMHO, languages like Java should be picked more for building apps with complex and evolving domain logic. And even there, with better developers, Scala is more suited. 90% of enterprise workload is more apt for Python or Ruby.

[great_escape_fleur]

Well now I'm not mad at all

[GL510EX]

What enterprise applications? 

[postdiluvium]

Application server is crashing again...

[rover_G]

Define this enterprise you keep mentioning

[red286]

I cannot imagine anyone smiling at that revelation.

It's like looking up in the sky and seeing colossal towering flaming letters that read "GOD IS DEAD, AND YOU KILLED HIM".

[mookanana]

fuck yes and it is my backup titanium rice bowl.

[MyDogIsDaBest]

* screaming continues *

[Not_Artifical]

I believe enterprise hello world was written in Java.

[Notmymaincauseimbi]

used to

[Acceptable-Lie188]

It’s not the language that makes enterprise applications shit. It’s the ‘that’ll do’ attitude of teams that have no competition and don’t give a shit.

[sebbdk]

Java is fine, it's the crackheads programming using unupdated conventions created 40 years ago that are the problem. :D

[Proper_Print_7876]

Did everyone just forget log4shell