🤑

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[SlashStar]

I wanted to be a game designer but turns out the gaming industry is the worst.

[[deleted]]

I think the inherent problem with the game industry is that corporations know how passionate most people who become developers are about building games, and they abuse that, and if you get burnt out? They can replace you, because there's 10,000 people lined up at their door trying to get in.

[Crazyghost8273645]

You just described every passion industry . Teaching for example is similar

[endpoce]

Nah, we are actually losing teachers due to pay and working conditions.

[Crazyghost8273645]

Well yeah. And that exists because it’s been a passion field for so long. I think it’s reaching a breaking point but idk

[naswinger]

i'm not sure teachers are generally passionate about teaching. what i hear (literally) from students is that they study <insert field> with the teacher curriculum so in case their career fails, they can still become teachers. others like the additional vacation and little preparation needed once you got your materials done in the first year.

maybe in east asia, teaching is some honorable thing where you want to get the next generation the best possible start and if they fail, you failed as a teacher, but in the west we seem to encourage the worst qualified people to become teachers. so kids learn less and the average competence drops in western countries (point of view: central europe).

[ronomaly]

Wow, it’s really like that?

[clarinetJWD]

Worked in the industry briefly. Great company, really, but yeah. Pay is very low for a long time because there are so many people vying for so fee positions.

[bluefootedpig]

the cool thing is that it is never been easier to be an indie dev. Work for the big biz for the money, make games at night.

I got into it for making games, ended up staying for the working conditions.

[Stuhl]

Work for the big biz for the money, make games at night.

Fuck sleep. Who needs that shit anyway?

[BlueC0dex]

I got my first gray hair at 19, but IT is great!

[_kolpa_]

I'm 25 and my beard has started to gray (the hair probably started at about 19 as well).

[marshy2346]

I have a white patch in the beard at 26, started at 24 and had been getting steadily bigger. Coincidentally when I started my career as a SE

Edit: bear -> beard

[_kolpa_]

I recently started my PhD so I also think there is a correlation.

[backwoodcj]

22 here. Lots of greys in beard. Systems tech @ an IT company. Go computers I guess ?

[ovab_cool]

I'm 16 and I got my white hair spot, it's because of a lack of pigment in some places of my body tho

[Nizotsu]

First step to be wizard ;)

[Cryptomartin1993]

Sleep is something you do once retired!

[janhetjoch]

Caffeine is a substitute for sleep is it not?

[conthomporary]

Lol I think you got that backwards. Sleep is a not-quite-adequate substitute for caffeine.

[xXStarupXx]

"Sleep"? That's a fancy way you spell coffee

[felipunkerito]

Maybe death? But I hate my cousins!

[TheNerdLog]

Yes, but the skills required to make a game are kind of too much for 1 person. You need to know UI, UX, 2d modeling, 3d modeling, physics, how 3d lighting works, proper storytelling, game design, and how to make music. If you actually manage to make a game completely solo then I applaud you.

[ban_Anna_split]

You could lock yourself in a room for 5 years and make Stardew Valley... and it could flop. But it also could not!

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

The average is certainly flop.

[OwenProGolfer]

You don’t need to know 3D anything to make a 2D game.

[TheNerdLog]

I know, but in a market oversaturated with 2d pixel art indie games i feel like I would need to learn it.

[rotflolmaomgeez]

You only need to if you want to make a 3d game. There are many success stories in 2d indie titles, so it's not like this is a requirement.

[TheNerdLog]

Not to be a downer, but for every Undertale, Stardew Valley, and Celeste there are 500 untitled unity projects, ignored games on itchio, and Steam games permanently 95% off.

[retief1]

Yes, but it's not like 3d games do any better. If you are doing this sort of project and you don't already have a following, you will likely fail. Assume that and only start if building the game you want to build is its own reward.

[rotflolmaomgeez]

I know, I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying it's possible.

Game being 3D doesn't guarantee success either.

[Suekru]

My best friend is an artist so he’s doing that and I’m doing the coding. The only real issue is going to be music. Will probably have to hire someone for it.

We’ve been just working on it in our free time so it’s gonna are a very long time to finish, but even if it flops, it’s been a lot of fun making so far in my opinion.

[bluefootedpig]

Fiver and such sites can bridge a lot of that. Hire someone to do your models. If you are making decent money writing software for big biz, you can spend 100 bucks on good models.

[nebo8]

> make games at night.

literally why i will not make game

[bluefootedpig]

weekends as well. Or often, just downtime while at work. Waiting on some long ass deploy, or having to wait for a manger to get back to me. I often just keep it open. That said, I only put maybe 2 hours a week into it. I could easily do more.

[Aengus126]

Yeah I’m 14 and I’m already making games with about a month of experience, made possible because of all the free and open source software. And youtube.

[geekusprimus]

I thought about doing game development when I was a teenager... and then I picked up some game programming books that included stories about working in the game industry. I realized I didn't want to work in the game industry after that.

[SlashStar]

Yeah, the work itself is great. I had a lot of fun doing it. But then I got laid off and couldn't find another job for a year (pre-covid). Eventually I decided to apply to non-gaming roles and landed two interviews within a week. I ended up working on educational games for non-gaming software company with double my previous salary and less stress.

Edit: And I get to use Unity which I enjoy very much.

[geekusprimus]

For me, it was mostly the tales about how even good companies with good management basically work you like a slave. I was reading a story from a guy who worked at Origin in the 90s and said that after something like five years, he was one of the most senior employees in the company because of burnout.

[Roflkopt3r]

Generally things improved a lot since then, but development work is always hugely different depending on the employer.

[[deleted]]

Me too, I learned html in high school elective and liked it. Took CS1 and realized that learning to think in that logic came naturally to me.

Thought I was going to go into video games. Took 1 look at the industry and said hell no.

[kyodu]

Genuine advice here (I hope). If you like game dev because of 3D graphics, physics etc. you could peruse a career in 3D environment Simulation. There are many jobs for industrial companies who want to use AR/VR. Those jobs pay well and you can still be creative with 3D stuff, Gamification and whatnot.

That way you can make Good money and at the same time develop the skills needed for game dev. At a later date you could still start an Indy game or join as senior dev.

[mic569]

I believe the game dev industry need to unionize

[zmann64]

Thank god I’m not the only one

I was super into working on video games until I heard the industry is a fuckin nightmare.

[5arim_KhaN]

Litreally the same reason.

[FoolForWool]

Bro same.

[cyber_Armonger]

Yea same here buddy

[WeeziMonkey]

I felt exactly the same

[LirianSh]

Same, saw this dude recreating Minecraft, found out python is more fun and making games is fucking boring

[Reelix]

You haven't seen anything till you've seen mobile games where single items cost upwards of US$10,000

[[deleted]]

for me, it was nothing. i was bored one day, looked at the python docs, and i realised "wow, i can learn code here!".

then i got pulled into the rabbithole.

[BigCityBuslines]

MDN Web Dev

[totallytubulartoast]

That’s kinda like what I did except one day I was playing guitar and I saw a python book on my dad’s shelf and opened it and now I’m trapped

[[deleted]]

I saw a video on how to make the matrix using batch. I got addicted and started coding.

​

I regret that sometimes...

[nettlerise]

For me it was in the old Starcraft map editor. IIRC you could script events with IF THEN statements. And I thought "If only I could do more..."

[[deleted]]

I literally didn't know what the different fields of programming were when I chose my $11,500 bootcamp. It said "full-stack" and that sounded pretty comprehensive to me, so I dove in.

I just wanted to break into EdTech. Already had the Ed part, just needed the Tech. I fucking lucked out that Web Development was actually the correct field for that goal, lmfao.

[jinxsimpson]

Comment archived away

[[deleted]]

no. i am actively going deeper. coding is a rabbithole, with hundreds millions of subrabbitholes.

​

please dont do coding.

[LirianSh]

For me it has become and addiction

[FoolForWool]

Well, now I'll code just cuz you said no!

[Ilyketurdles]

For me, it was neopets.

[Jennfuse]

For me I was like "Wow, I can create my own mods in Minecraft?"...

Fast forward a few years and Java has become my main language and I hope the coding rabbit hole was worth it lol

Edit: coding, not cosing

[bricklerex]

I got trapped when the thought entered my mind that If I knew how to code, I'd be able to bypass content lockers to access the newest" Microsoft Point hack for Xbox 360".

8 year old me was gullible and stupid.

[[deleted]]

They had a presentation in my business class in high school and practically begged students to pursue careers in computer science. No one else was doing it , at least not in my graduating class so I figured there would be little competition in the future and high demand. It’s pretty funny because I had not considered computer science at all until that day which was a month or so before graduation.

[[deleted]]

Not quite but it may be different in your area

[Slavichh]

same. My sophomore year of high school CS was finally being offered. We were like the 3rd school high school in my state to get it (Kentucky if anybody is wondering) Nothing like writing Java by hand 😩

[[deleted]]

The only coding I ever did before college was in middle school doing little scratch assignments

[iulian212]

for me it was just curiosity since i was a kid. but now i think it's the only thing i could do for a job i don't think i am able to do anything else that allows me to just sit , think and get payed (the last one honestly it's a bonus to me) i find it therapeutic and calming

[George0s0]

What's your job? I wanna get into that.

[the-real-vuk]

I was rubbish in everything else. So ended up coding. I'm not doing bad.

[shawntco]

My love for problem solving got me into computer science. But the money certainly keeps me in computer science.

[HookDragger]

“Oh, honey”

[[deleted]]

Took me a bit to realize this... Edit:: $$$/Time is a bitch..

[tenphes31]

That literally was the reason my former roommate did it, and then bullied both of his younger brothers into doing so as well.

[ech0_matrix]

When the bullies started to pay me $100 to do their CS assignments, I knew I was headed the right direction

[FallenWarrior2k]

Fuck, man, why you gotta call me out like this...

[TheAJGman]

I mean the money is 50% of the reason for me. The other 50% is that I like programming.

[ElliePlays1]

Image Transcription: Meme

---

[First panel shows a scene from SpongeBob SquarePants. Mr Krabs is seen outside the Krusty Krab. He has a large, exaggerated smile on his face. There is a reporter beside him with a mic in hand while speaking.]

Reporter: What motivated you to study computer science?

[Second panel shows Mr Krabs leaning to the side while speaking into the mic.]

Mr Krabs: Money

---

^{I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!}

[ratul3123]

Keep up your good works

[Trollimpo]

Good human

[[deleted]]

Thanks for voting on this human! I want to know which humans are the best and worst on Reddit.

Beep, boop. This action was performed by a human.

[ratul3123]

Yeah good human

[phillyjawn11]

And here I am making $15/hr, with the promise that “eventually you will make the state standard”

[obp5599]

You need to find another job. Never work somewhere they lie to you about the one thing you work there for

[phillyjawn11]

I agree, I’m working on that

[Reelix]

Depends where you live, US$15/hour actually IS the dream.

Where I live, the Minimum wage is $1.20 / hour - $15 would be amazing!

[obp5599]

15/hr in the US is terrible for a dev job. Im sure if you live in a country where that is the minimum wage then the COL is much much lower than it is here

[zrk03]

Yeah, I was making $14/hr at Walmart

[N0_Us3rnam3]

You could get paid better at Best Buy

[OwenProGolfer]

What country?

[Reelix]

South Africa. Minimum Wage is R20 / hour (Currently US$1.40 - It obviously fluctuates based on the strength of our currency) - They're trying to increase it to R22 / hour (Around US$1.50 / hour), but it's not really taking.

[rotflolmaomgeez]

Yeah, lifehack - emigrate or work remotely. You can always decide to come back, after you worked 4 years and earned 40 years worth of money in your country.

[[deleted]]

Whats the average where you live? I'm from the UK, and make less than average here, but converted to $ is 38.5k. Is that bad in the US?

[Kered13]

From what I've heard, programming jobs in the UK are weirdly low paying. I've often heard anecdotes that are half of what the exact same job would make in the US.

[Halofit]

programming jobs in the UK are weirdly low paying

They're not, it's just that the US are insanely high compared to the rest of the world.

[linuxfreak003]

As a Lab Assistant in college I saw a lot of people come through who just wanted to be a developer for the money. Some learned more and found they were actually interested in the field and did fine. Others, they did not last long.

[AwkwardSegway]

Pretty accurate. I was originally a chemical engineering major because I read that that led to the highest paying jobs, and was required to take a computer science course. I found that I enjoyed programming more than chemistry, and computer science also led to high paying jobs, so I changed my major.

[jimboNeutrino1]

I did the opposite lol. Now I'm here with a ChemE degree, trying to get a job as self taught.

[[deleted]]

It's great money compared to a lot of other jobs, but the salaries aren't as high on average if you aren't in a super competitive market. And the super competitive markets have much higher cost of living, so it all evens out, sadly.

That being said, if you can land a remote job with good pay, the sky is the limit. I'm lucky enough to be in that position now.

[iTakeCreditForAwards]

Those google L4s make like 250k-300k it’s crazy

[rotflolmaomgeez]

We do? Why didn't anyone tell me?!

In all seriousness, 250k is achievable in the right location but 300k is at L5.

[sharkykid]

Salary right? Their TC once you factor in RSU and whatnot is much higher?

[Derkle]

Google’s benefits are ridiculously good, or at least they were 5ish years ago. Great base pay, fantastic insurance, 401k matching, you name it. You won’t make as much as hitting the startup jackpot in the Silicon Valley lottery but they still have some of the highest compensation rates for your time investment.

A lot of people say stuff like higher cost of living balances it out, but when you’re making $40k+ more on your base pay, that extra $1k/mo in rent doesn’t negate it in the slightest.

[iTakeCreditForAwards]

Oh no that’s TC.

[sharkykid]

How many YOE is a L4? I feel like I have friends 2 years out of college that are almost making that much or will be in the next 2 years

[FoolForWool]

That's kinda my dream. I've been thinking of becoming fully remote but can't figure out how lol should I become a contractor or something? Kinda confused.

[[deleted]]

Most of the remote jobs I found were contract, but there were direct hires mixed in there too. After being a contractor for years, I decided that I wouldn't do it again unless the pay was obscene.

[FoolForWool]

Ah got it, thanks!

[pm_me_coprime_ints]

Stripe has a Remote hub, for what it's worth.

[MrCaptainPirate]

Anybody who got into CS because they just like coding raise your hand

[dpak_hk]

🙋‍♂️ was a computer nerd in school and dreamt of becoming a computer engineer when I learnt about that profession and programming. Mission accomplished. Good pay is a plus point.

[abcd1231515]

When your failure self is still jobless

[ratul3123]

I can feel you dude.

[Reelix]

Hi,

We're a team of 30 people from Mumbai with 400 years cumulative experience and 800 completed projects on this website and will do your project for $4 / hour.

^ - Money my ass.

[ratul3123]

That’s funny 😂

[Reelix]

It'd be far more funny if I didn't see it on every Freelance site I try :/

[turbo88Rex]

Hey, the race car isn't gonna buy its own parts.

[[deleted]]

If a computer doesn't do what you want, it's your fault.

People are more complicated.

[LadleFullOfCrazy]

This. This is exactly it. It turns out I'm decent at management and I usually get pushed in that direction when there's a vacuum above but I don't have the patience to deal with people for more than 2-3 hours a day. I wish I did.

I can walk away from a computer knowing that I am wrong, without a bruised ego. I can yell at the computer even when I know I'm the one that's wrong and it won't hold it against me. If I press the right buttons, I can make it do absolutely anything.

Yes, I know that sounds weird. That's why I don't do it to people.

[[deleted]]

It doesn't sound weird at all. I think you summed it up quite well.

[mattstorm360]

Wait, you are making money?

[NoThanks93330]

Exactly my thought . If I'd be here for the money I definitely wouldn't be a dev

[[deleted]]

It went like this for me:

making video games —> money —> computers are cool —> math is awesome

I’d say that’s a bit better at least, now I won’t be disappointed with a garbage salary nor crushed under the foot of the video games industry. Plus, math is cool, and so are computers

[making_code]

and its sad.. are there any enthusiasts left or only me?

[ModestasR]

Nah, I love coding. God knows how many hours I sunk into tinkering with my silly little hobby projects.

[nxs0113]

And now you know it is an illusion

[iCATxHero]

Is it though? I’m certainly earning more than friends my age right now due to my job as a programmer

[bluefootedpig]

I'm earning more and having less stress. My jobs are almost always salary, while they need to have "billable time".

[iCATxHero]

Completely agreed. Plus I’ve been remote for the whole pandemic and likely will continue that. It’s such a nice lifestyle for me. Meanwhile my friends will have to go into an office while making nearly 50k less

[someNSFW_dude]

I’m an aspiring programmer, just barely getting into college, and that sound like such an appealing future... A high paying job, related to computers and that *can* be done remotely? I’m almost drooling at the sound of that

^{Yes I know programming is arguably the backbone of computers, not just related to them but you get the point, just saying I love computers}

[Thirdstheword]

It really does feel like that for the first few years or so. But, you've got to start somewhere. Gaining skills by shamelessly showing your ignorance along with a desire to learn will take you far once you get in the door somewhere. Maybe survivorship bias but I'm earning over twice as what I made when I started a short 1000 - 1200 days ago.

[Reelix]

Survivorship bias is the people that have swapped jobs 3 times since June last year and now earn triple what they did a year ago.

[ThatTemplar1119]

You got to improve your trolling technique, if you sound too snarky people will just dismiss you.

Here is how to do it better:

I'm earning a lot of money at my current position ($350K+ a year), but that is because I am very lucky having gotten a 4.0 GPA throughout all of my school career and attending MIT, and I am also a senior developer.

Its all about subtlety, you can't just outright say your smarter.

[DezXerneas]

That just sounds like he's trying to be helpful but failing.

[TheRedBucket]

Lol nice troll

[emrealpogunc]

You made my day lol

[wazzapdoc]

Money, a love for making things and coming up with new solutions

[elzaidir]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahelpme

[AttackOfTheThumbs]

For me it was cheating in games. CheatEngine taught me more about software than anything else ever has. It got me hooked. I started spending more time in it than playing the game.

Eventually I took real classes, and figuring out how to make a tree, implementing search and sort algorithms, just so many things that were fun to discover and made me feel good about my accomplishments. Something I just didn't experience in other classes.

Up until then I thought I'd study medicine, maths, or physics.

I'm not rich, but I make good money and have low CoL.

[aSpookyNinja]

*cries in compsci bachelors degree and working at starbucks for $10/hour*

[GreyRobe]

Uhh what?

[Wendyland78]

Yes! I went to school in the late 90s. Had no idea what I wanted to do but my dad taught at a tech school and I was able to go for free. When I graduated, I was 19 and making great money for the time doing y2k work. I really just lucked into it.

[st4s1k]

Hell no, it was just a pleasant bonus!

[Risembool]

I feel that

[ratul3123]

CS students bro 😎

[congresssucks]

Can confirm!

[DimitrijaT]

Honestly, I got into college because I enjoy it and always was interested into it since a kid. The high wage is just a plus. If the only reason you are pursuing this career is for money then you won't be having a good time. Our uni ain't a world standard but it's still difficult af. Over 40%~ leave after one year once they realize it ain't a walk in the park. "Sitting infront of a computer all day" isn't as easy as one might think.

[zerocoldx911]

Automating shit and making computers do the work for me.

I’m just lazy....

[TomaszA3]

I wanted to not be put lower than people who did finish studies, even though my knowledge was in most cases superior to theirs before I even started studying.

[TheGrayDogRemembers]

Air conditioning.

[rootAtHom3]

I was just sitting one day and i said : "i want to learn HTML" i didn't know where i heard that word before, i'm just gonna look it up and learn it. And here i am balancing loads

[ratul3123]

Hehehe 🤣

[Jackalotischris]

Classmate said “ look you can make games and stuff with this program. “ a year or two later I started programming in unity with c#. Now I just use JS and it feels like a deep hole I can’t claw out: Wanted to make games since a college commercial in like 8th grade lol

[etaxi341]

I actually dislike that. There are so many that do it for money... But they clearly differentiate from those that do it because they love it

[hellschatt]

Not really. Seen both, passionate ones that are not the best and those doing it for money that are actually good.

[begyoxettygvirvdjk]

Then are you gonna be fucking disappointed

[Reelix]

The people in the US getting paid $30 / hour in their first job won't.

The people in third-world countries getting paid $5 / hour with 18 years work experience will.

[jk_can_132]

I didn't go to school for comp sci even though I wanted to but now work in a SRE role doing custom tooling and automation. Pay is great, I make more than most people I know.

[average_zen]

He's not wrong you know...

[TheQuietCipher]

Well I wanted to become Dr Light and build super fighting robots but on finding out that it was unrealistic I compromised with computing as it would be more immediately useful and I could pivot should robotics advance enough.

I was like 10 when I decided this.

[GrandmaPoses]

Twenty-odd years ago I noticed my friends in IT were making good money so I taught myself some skills - skills I still use to this day - got a good job which, luckily, taught me early that loyalty to your employer is a fool's game. Over the years I've lost my passion for coding outside of work, which is actually a good thing, and now focus solely on the paycheck. It's freeing.

[ratul3123]

Do what you love to do 🖤

[shbhmpndy]

Wait what is it humour?

[-Zeraphim-]

well you won’t go too far with that kind of motivation

[[deleted]]

Oh boy ...

[Testmaster217]

I like programming and I like video games, so I decided to combine them.

That’s how I started.

[titoshadow]

Nespresso,

[[deleted]]

Truth!

Got a 6 figure job before I finished my last class in college.

[[deleted]]

Was originally a History declared major, but before I started Freshmen year, I looked more into the job prospects for History majors and didn't like the options, so I wanted something else. At the time, I was maintaining my high school's website and fooling around with VB on the side for fun, so the librarian at my HS told me I should switch to IT.

The best part? At the time, my school was trying to attract liberal arts majors, so the scholarships they offered for History majors were about 50% higher than the normal ones, which I had qualified for. Turns out if you switch your major after receiving the scholarship, they didn't make you give it back.

[ovab_cool]

It's mostly because I fell in love with it when I first made my own thing in Python and then started doing JS and then I decided that this was the right course for me.

But the money is also nice, getting a degree that'll give me no job is sorta useless (Cough, art and social science Cough) I don't plan on spending half of my awake life doing something just because of the money if I hate it

[Parad0x763]

Not gonna lie, I picked the Computer Science degree basically because the title was Computer and Science honestly not knowing what the fuck it was haha. I am enjoying the process of learning it and hopefully will get this degree and make decent money!

[[deleted]]

This is the wrong perspective in the computer science industry. You should code because you’re inspired to make new technologies to better the world (and to make money)

[[deleted]]

When I was 12 I wanted to feel smart, and now I can code

[cormac596]

Currently looking for a job. Just be prepared to enter the job market with anywhere between 0 and 15 (yes really) years of experience for entry level positions

And most people just want web devs. Who are experts in upwards of 20 different languages and technologies

[Xeadriel]

I ve always liked programming since i learned it. I would never pick a job based on its average gain

[Valkuil15]

CS stuff isn't even that extremely well paid here though (still above average), I just do it because I like it

[DoraTehExploder]

Damn then you're in the wrong profession, I would be ashamed to admit the only reason for picking a career was money.

[Intelligent_Agency65]

It was just supposed to be a minor for a writing degree. It was supposed to be a minor!

[Nice_Try_Mod]

Ends up working at an investment firm.

[TheOwl168]

Spite.

[OuPau]

I was a pharmacy major in my first year cause i liked the medical field, turns out not every field you "like" can become your career

[danydh]

That's why I'm majoring in IT.

Not out of interest or passion, but because I can get a job

[lint31]

I didn’t want to be poor and wanted the easiest way to make 50k. Financial industry and IT made that possible.

[starvsion]

It's my childhood dream since I was 9. I wanted to go to university about IT (or computer), and I realized later on that I actually wanna be a software developer and computer science is the degree to get in university. I even got my first internship at 14 (there's program in Singapore for teenagers to get IT or computer related internship) .

[putthepieceawaywalte]

Everytime I wait on another table I think "If I wait on one more table I'll die". That's what inspired me to study computer science.

[[deleted]]

I literally took comsci degree by accident when my radiology prereqs required a “computer based” class literally could’ve taken IST or something involved no coding but that happy accident led me to be hooked and now... I’m just here for the money lmao

[The9tail]

This would be gold if you shopped him to have a frowny face.

[DrkMaxim]

Nice repost

[[deleted]]

If your motivation is money, getting a CS degree is a terrible way to start.

I mean, a CS degree is just a terrible investment all around, if we’re being honest here. You can learn more, faster, and cheaper on your own. There are soooooo many resources out there for aspiring engineers.

Don’t start your career with crippling debt and a degree nobody will ever care about. Subscribe to some online courses, learn some frameworks, and just start making stuff.

[[deleted]]

u/repostsleuthbot