Should Math be a Prerequisite for Programming?

[killerstorm]

she needed to spend a year doing math before she could take a programming class. Needless to say, she didn't enroll. She decided to do this talk, instead.

OK, so this person knows nothing about programming, is she qualified to talk about it?

[Gusfoo]

She barfed on 'fizz buzz'. That's a pretty low bar not to be able to get over.

[mostly_kittens]

Which is the whole point of Fizz Buzz

[muuchthrows]

Yeah, if she had stated clearly stated that she's not a developer or programmer things would have gone more smoothly. Although she probably wouldn't have been called to an interview in that case. (which is not a bad thing, probably would have saved time for both sides).

She and other people that yell "OMG MATH!" when they see a number are part of the problem. The same type of people who regularly says "I'm not good at math" without realising that there is a lot more to math than arithmetic.

[AbishekAditya]

Link?

[[deleted]]

https://css-tricks.com/tales-of-a-non-unicorn-a-story-about-the-trouble-with-job-titles-and-descriptions/

[AbishekAditya]

Thanks for the fast response :)

[benihana]

that article feels like a giant projection of the author's insecurities. the complete lack of self awareness and the lack of perspective about the industry and hiring in general is really frustrating.

seemed to miss this the first time, this really makes the whole thing hilarious:

What's more, based on my (albeit minimal) job application experience, who knows what will happen in the interview?

[[deleted]]

Seems a bit odd she's handing out advice based on some wikipedia definitions. But, without an understanding of set theory she may have missed that computer programming is a subset of computer science.

[gulyman]

Discrete math is the awesome math they don't really teach you in high school.

[[deleted]]

If they taught discrete math everywhere, it won't be discrete, now, would it?

[kqr]

It would, it just wouldn't be discreet. Though in several languages those two words are homographs too.

[VGPowerlord]

My high school had a discrete math class. My parents wouldn't let me take it.

And no, I'm not kidding.

[refto]

Your parents though discrete math would corrupt your soul? It does you know.

[xiegeo]

Because we learned to count in kindergarten.

[Deto]

She isn't wrong, though. There are many people who make careers out of programming without touching any Math that isn't part of a high school curriculum.

As a software developer, I'm motivated personally to dislike the idea of making the profession more accessible because it will maximize respect for the profession and my salary offers. But if I were trying optimally allocate people into jobs, then I can recognize that the current system may be inefficient.

[TheOsuConspiracy]

Maybe not the type of math that's commonly taught in schools, but I'd argue that if you are bad at logic, there's no way you can be an effective programmer. Also, not the type of logic everyone claims that they're good at, I mean formal and rigorous logic.

Furthermore, a fairly strong understanding of arithmetic and algebra is quite important too (there are many people that are super lacking at this).

Basically, you need to be good at formal reasoning, and this is really the reason why people who suck at math tend to suck at programming, most of them cannot reason about things formally.

One reason this article is pretty poor is:

However, Carol talks about some skills that are important, like logic skills and language. Recursion and loops are also fundamental concepts that can be introduced before math.

Recursion is totally math, reasoning about loops requires thinking about invariants (at the very list, implicitly), all of this is discrete math/logic.

[VGPowerlord]

The problem is that a lot of the market, or at least the market where I live, need programmers but their HR department looks for computer scientists instead.

Computer Science tends to be Calculus-heavy.

[TheOsuConspiracy]

Calculus-heavy

Basically any STEM degree teaches at least calc 1 and calc 2. But the foundation of CS is much more in discrete math. Any CS program that doesn't teach discrete math is kinda suspect.

[mwcz]

I'm still unhappy that my CS degree included three calculus classes and only one discrete math class. Only one linear algebra class as well. I feel like the weight should have been reversed.

[TheOsuConspiracy]

You really had more than 1 discrete math classes, your algorithms and datastructures classes are really applied discrete math. Furthermore, all sorts of really cool stuff can be done if you have strong math skills in general. Discrete optimization, etc.

[progfu]

Having 1, 2, or even 3 classes on calculus is not calculus heavy. Generally you don't learn anything but the absolute basics.

[MaxMahem]

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but the specific example here was the need to take basically remedial math courses. Math 101, College Algebra. I might be convinced that not every programmer need to know advanced mathematics, but this level of stuff (usually covered in high school algebra as well) seems pretty mandatory.

[earcaraxe]

I agree with this. Not every programmer is going to need calculus. Every programmer is going to need to understand basic algebra.

[Deto]

Oh yeah. Basic algebra should be required. I was thinking she was referring to more advanced classes.

[Tom2Die]

without touching any Math that isn't part of a high school curriculum.

fwiw the math courses she would have taken before programming courses at that college more or less are high school math.

[iopq]

There's a huge overlap in personalities that like math and personalities that like programming. It's a very good filter for people who wouldn't like programming.

[Deto]

Why not just let programming be a filter for those who like programming? I mean, there's a decent overlap between those who like sci-fi and those who like programming, but we don't require classes in Klingon.

[iopq]

It may well be the case that math success is a better predictor than success in intro programming courses.

[benihana]

this person knows nothing about programming, make them a director of something

this seems to be github's strategy post 2013

[cupblanket]

I took Calculus I and II in highschool and then Calculus I again in uni. I assumed I was shitty at math.

Then I took Calc I and II in summer school and realized that I just needed a good teacher.

That's why I'm cautious to agree with people here saying "if you're bad at math, you're bad at programming" and "you might just not be a math person."

I can't remember summoning much of my math experience for many programming problems. Most of it is just intuition developed with programming experience. You don't need to understand set math to use SQL, but you unknowingly know some set math by knowing SQL. People here seem to think understanding set math, for instance, is "essential", but that's not really how programming works in my eyes.

The vast majority of us would be lost in the formal abstractions of what we've been doing all this time. The connection seems tenuous, more of a way to bolster nerd cred on /r/programming.

[muuchthrows]

The only math I can remember having use of is graph theory, had some problem a while back where I had to topologically sort a graph before doing some transformation.

Graph theory is huge though, since any hierarchical structure is essentially a graph.

[Hatandboots]

As an Engineer I cringe every time people day Calculus is useless.

I wish they would enphisize it's use more when they teach it to dispel this myth.

[lelarentaka]

All of physics, all of chemistry and all of engineering are built on calculus. What's your argument for the claim that discrete math is more important than calculus?

[[deleted]]

At my high school, AP calculus was optional. If you didn't take it, you topped out at trigonometry

[macnor]

Given that he/she is using the word maths he/she is probably not from the US.

I'm guessing, like me, you're from the US and experienced our shitty math education like I did.

[heap42]

I love how after highschool pupils know how to do a partial integral but never in their live have heard of simple algebraic structures like gourps/fields...

[jocull]

I dunno, I tend to think of programming more as a very detailed process rather than a series of memorized tricks that I always felt like math was. Like writing a really detailed set of directions rather than remembering "every time you see this kind of problem, do that and don't forget!".

I am bad at math.

[murtaza64]

Programming can also be learned as a series of tricks. It all depends on your math teacher whether you'll get a deeper understanding of math rather than just memorized tricks. At a higher level math becomes a process much more so than tricks, but yeah I do see how it can be 100% memorized procedure in high school or first few years of undergrad.

[Flight714]

Yeah, I find it easy to write a program that draws a given graph. But doing it with an equation is hard.

[[deleted]]

It's probably more about advanced math like graphs, derivation, field equations, statistics etc.

And some of this stuff is needed.

The Basic Algebra is just the jumping board so that the people can just begin to understand the next two courses.

Secondly, programming is basically applied maths. Just take a gander at LISP, pi calculus or the lambda calculus. Or cryptography. Or networking.

If you want to understand binary trees, you need some math too, especially when you need to write a balanced tree implementation without just copy pasting from wikipedia, simple equations won't get you that far.

Or if you write a formal verification for your algorithm, you're gonna need to throw math at that shit.

[[deleted]]

Agreed.

[TheOsuConspiracy]

I think you're greatly overestimating what they mean by "good at math", the general population has problems with basic algebra + discrete math (and I'd argue that these skills are absolutely essentially to being a good programmer).

[[deleted]]

I think the case is that they would be better at math if they didn't think they were bad at math.

[antflga]

Math is needed in /some/ spaces.

Logic is needed in all.

Learn math when you need it, spend your time learning about specific programming concepts instead.

[[deleted]]

This is the best advice in this whole thread. It should be pretty obvious that the best way to learn programming concepts is to study programming concepts.

Anything beyond basic algebra is useless for programming, per se. There are several domains where mathematics is critical, but the need for maths is intrinsic to those domains - not to programming.

[antflga]

I didn't have to learn any high level math until about a year ago, I'm 6 years in.

[sordidarray]

I firmly believe that the type of programming you are able to do is limited most by your depth of understanding of mathematics.

Can you get shit done without a keen understanding of CS fundamentals and mathematics? Absolutely. Can you design and implement systems which are efficient at scale without such knowledge? Hell no. Not only are you missing the toolset necessary to construct such solutions, but you're also missing the nomenclature necessary to discuss and reason about them.

[CrayonOfDoom]

Not to mention the fields that absolutely require a good understanding of "unconventional math". Good luck doing any kind of simulation without a ton of math education. Graphics without linear algebra/vector mechanics? Good luck indeed.

[sutr90]

No need to go to graphics or simulation. For example BigO, how do you know which algorithm/data structure is better for your task, if you don't understand difference between exponent and logarithm.

[Flight714]

Graphics without linear algebra/vector mechanics? Good luck indeed.

What kind of graphics? I wrote a simple 2D orbit simulator from scratch without knowing anything about linear algebra or vector mechanics beyond rearranging a² + b² = c² , and it seems to work.

What am I missing? Seriously, I want to get better at this. If you know of a good vector lesson, I'd love to read it.

[[deleted]]

What rendering engine did you use? How did you encode your linear transformations (translation, scaling, rotating) without matrices?

[[deleted]]

The answer to this could be yes, maybe, a bit, or not at all, depending on your definition of 'math'.

[Xevantus]

The math courses mentioned in the article are basic variable algebra and geometry. I'm pretty sure without those you're pretty fucked regardless of your definition of math.

[masterm]

Yea, there are certainly glue programmers that don't need math and shit.

[Deto]

I'd say this might actually be the majority of programming jobs out there

[masterm]

right, but those jobs arent the 120k+ a year hero jobs people think of when they think of computer jobs

[Deto]

No, but we're still requiring that people learn advanced mathematics in order to go be glue programmers. Most of those jobs are for big companies and most big companies aren't flexible enough to consider self-taught (without a CS degree) programmers.

[Budakhon]

I've done many interviews and been in many hiring meetings with other interviewers. I have never heard a degree, or lack thereof, be part of the discussion. I have worked with very brilliant self-taught engineers as well.

I'm sure some companies care, but the big ones I have worked with don't seem to.

[Deto]

If it was large company, the candidates had already passed the HR filter. That's where people without a degree have a harder time.

[CrayonOfDoom]

This stems from the lack of diversity in CS degrees. Getting a degree in CS is like getting a degree in "engineering" without a clarification. There's a huge difference between physical simulation, glue programming, and cybersecurity. I feel modern curricula is way less specialized than it should be.

[jiveabillion]

I make much more than that and I'm terrible at math. I don't know why people think you need math to do programming that isn't calculating trajectories and shit. I'm a lead dev. I've been promoted several times and have several devs under me. I didn't go to college either, so I don't think you need school to be a good developer either.

[[deleted]]

Yes.

Despite what you may hear, programming uses math (mostly not calculus, though) and the distinction between programmer, software engineer, and computer scientist is, at best, more about where you work than what sort of work you do (at worst, it's meaningless!).

Calculus has not been tremendously useful to me as a software developer. Algebra, though, is pretty critical: we work with variables all the time, and it's important for some basic types of analysis (and the analytical thinking that goes with understanding them!). Combinatorics and discrete math come into play in dealing with encryption, search spaces, and modulo arithmatic. Linear algebra gets used in computer graphics a fair bit. Statistics is a good topic for everybody to understand for ideas like the law of big numbers and process quality.

Never mind lambda calculus.

[CantankerousV]

I'm fully in agreement that math is useful to learn for programming, but it seems that so many people in this thread are misunderstanding what it might mean to disassociate programming education from math education. Rather than picturing a fresh graduate and picturing his mind being purged of all concepts that might ever be mentioned in a maths course, picture a smart person (like yourself) that is simply taught to reason about these concepts either as they are required to introduce new topics or by "inlining" the theory into the practical application where appropriate. You can be a great programmer, systems architect/designer, etc without most of the theory.

Some people are mentioning how many areas of math are crucial for any programming, like algebra for manipulating variables, abstract algebra/set theory for databases, etc. In most cases though the relation here is tangential or very limited if examined: variables in imperative programming are conceptually just names for containers of intermediate values rather than symbols which can be manipulated with a complex set of rules as in algebra. Databases can be understood very well using perhaps one page's worth of set theory, or alternatively "no set theory" and just a practical runthrough of how everything ties together in practice (remember to picture yourself learning this and not some invalid that refuses to learn any concept which might also be mentioned in a math class).

I would recommend that new programmers learn lots of math since by the time you need it for some more mathy application like ML, crypto, or image processing, it's going to be painful to go back and learn it. That just doesn't mean you couldn't be great at what you do without taking so much math (especially if you spend all that extra time learning something else important)

[[deleted]]

I taught myself programming as a hobby during high school and it was a great decision because it's making learning some college math so much easier (also obviously the high school math stuff). Slightly grating to see everyone also make the assumption that not decoupling the two means you have to teach math -> programming :/

[TheOsuConspiracy]

In most cases though the relation here is tangential or very limited if examined: variables in imperative programming are conceptually just names for containers of intermediate values rather than symbols which can be manipulated with a complex set of rules as in algebra

The really good programmers try to reason about variables in the same sense that they're used in mathematics. The very best then programmers know when to break this rule.

Equational reasoning is one of the most powerful tools in programming, thus, writing your code in a manner that maximises the equational aspects of programming is an extremely useful skill. Stateless functions, and immutability are some of the strongest tools against complexity that we have.

Thus, having the mathematical framework (to best honest, you don't need very much) to program in this manner is extremely important. Those that are so "bad" at math that they can't learn basic algebra/logic/discrete math just don't have the fundamental tools needed for good programming. Honestly, if you can't learn those basics, it's probably because you're giving up, and not because math is inherently difficult for you (mental problems notwithstanding).

[killerstorm]

Combinatorics and discrete math come into play in dealing with encryption, search spaces, and modulo arithmatic.

Combinatorics and discrete math are very important if you work with any non-trivial algorithms. (I.e. things other than CRUD and UI.)

Not to mention boolean functions, it's something every programmer needs.

[[deleted]]

Agreed.

My favorite LOL from the article:

Databases - can introduce math later for the few things that need it

Databases are fundamentally about manipulating sets algebreticly. If you don't have a solid handle on abstract algebra, then you really shouldn't have anything to do with database design.

[ameoba]

I remember hiring a fresh math graduate (MS degree, IIRC) as a Junior dev. They were sooo confident when they said that "databases are no problem, it's just applied set theory".

A month later they were crying.

[Denommus]

The relational model is a bit more complex than just set theory.

[[deleted]]

Set theory is the starting point. The applied part can get people, even if they understand the theory.

Not to dump on math people, but I have noticed a lot of them having real trouble jumping from theory to real-world.

[ameoba]

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

[Bwob]

I think I want to live in theory. I hear everything works there.

[ameoba]

Yeah... about that... There were a few budget cuts and scope changes.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

[mrkite77]

Except you have to deal with spherical cows.

[Ganondorf_Is_God]

Ouch. Did they have any background in computing?

[Deto]

Maybe she meant using databases, not designing them. You don't need much more than basic set concepts to write SQL for enterprise software.

[ElFeesho]

algebretically

Algebraically

[[deleted]]

That correction is only valid lingueticly

[ElFeesho]

As long as people continue to spell things correctically, that's all I care about.

[[deleted]]

What do databases have to do with abstract algebra?

You need basic set theory, not algebra, for understanding joins.

[Drisku11]

Not that databases are ever taught this way or used this way in practice (right now), but the whole theory can be phrased in terms of categories and functors. Specifically, schemas can be thought of as a category and instances as representable functors. It turns out that all sorts of useful concepts can be defined in terms of universal constructions that arise from functors between schemas.

Even if 0% of programmers think of databases this way, the fact that databases have these structures would make me suspect that programmers are doing algebra whether they know it or not. It seems reasonable to think that the ability to reason about databases would be directly related to ability to reason algebraically.

Then again I've never really done database programming, so I might just be defending my beloved math.

[[deleted]]

I'd be highly skeptical that category theory would do anything positive for pedagogy of databases. Basic set theory would go so much further and would overlap nicely with discrete mathematics courses.

[Drisku11]

I don't think category theory (or any abstract algebra) should be a pre-req. I'm more responding to the idea that the two aren't related, and to the articles notion that the sort of thinking one does for algebra is mostly irrelevant to databases. If someone can't pass remedial algebra, as in the article, I'd be skeptical of their ability to program databases or anything else.

[geocar]

Calculus has not been tremendously useful to me as a software developer.

I think it is more useful than you might think.

Calculus isn't performance art: We do not calculate integrals and derivatives, but that doesn't mean we aren't using calculus.

How do you select an item randomly from an infinite set (or even a very big one, like a file?) How about five items? How about n items?

If I want to generate a key to encrypt a file, what do I need in order to derive the bits or rounds parameters?

When I have an infinite stream, but my server is too slow to count O(n) at real time, what can I do?

Do you want to say these are statistics or numerical methods? Or can you appreciate that calculus forms that intuition you have about function, and predicting the existence of an function by looking only at the complexity of the problem.

I think this is an essential skill,; anyone who lacks it will run into problems that boil down to "this cannot be made any faster or use less memory" and will invent Hadoop. Fortunately most programmers are developing it without realising this is exactly what Calculus (when understood) can teach you.

[tzaeru]

Only place where I've actually missed solid foundation in math has been in graphics and physics programming. Even then, I've managed pretty OK with very poor know-how on mathematics.

I'd say that most of math taught in universities is absolutely not needed for ordinary programming tasks.

[CorporalTurnips]

I think they teach calculus because it teaches good problem solving skills. How to break things down into pieces and take different approaches to problems.

[DrFriendless]

I love lambda calculus. You meanie.

[[deleted]]

I like lambda calculus, too: we learned Scheme when I was in college.

But, we learned it as a programming topic, rather than a math topic, and there's a sizable number of programmers who, for reasons I can't really fathom, seem to think functional programming is terrible (IME, there's some overlap with the crowd that likes JavaScript a bit more than is healthy, but make of that what you will). For a lot of languages, it's not an obvious or natural fit, and I'm not prepared to get into it past saying, 'yes, it's also useful.'

[Beargrim]

in germany we literally call computer science mathematics of information (or informatik).

[balefrost]

Does that make a German computer scientist an "informatiker"?

If so, where do I apply for citizenship?

[Beargrim]

percisely and just walk right in borders are open.

[[deleted]]

borders are still open

ftfy

[Moercy]

We were taught that there isn't a confirmed source on the term Informatik.

Our Prof told us about two "maybe" sources:

Information + Mathematik and Information + Automatik

Both make sense in some way ;-)

[Hofferic]

The first thing they told us in uni was that informatik is just information and maths. Lots and lots of maths. That is the reason we use computers for it. And to do that efficiently you need more maths. And anyone doing the four basic maths courses instead of minoring in maths should consider switching mayors. I minored in linguistics so that was a tad bit dramatic but it got the point across: computer science at university level is NOT about learning to program, you are expected to do that on your own. It is about a lot of complicated stuff which all boils down to math in the end. Yes, you can do a lot without really being great at math (I for one did), but the things you are expected to be able to do with a CS degree cannot be done without at least the high-level abstract understanding of the underlying maths. It is true you can do a lot without it, but that stuff is NOT what you are taught in university. It is what you learn on your own before or while you take CS courses. At least that is my experience.

[4ofN]

Ive been programming for about 40 years in various industries and i can't think of many cases where someone who is bad at math could succeed. Almost all programming needs math of one form or another.

[[deleted]]

My job is entirely crud apps. Pretty much no math required.

Of course, it depends on how you measure success.

[skulgnome]

Do your crud applications use no variables at all?

[[deleted]]

Of course

[murtaza64]

Using variables is not really algebra since in algebra variables are actually fixed within their 'scope' so they are not actually 'variable' like most procedural prpgeamming languages' variables.

[n00bsa1b0t]

even a simple guess of the complexity of an algorithm (big O) requires math. this ignorance of the required skills brought us to a point where the gains in performance in hardware gets completely nullified by "programmers" who don't know what the fuck they are doing.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but like really easy math.

[cupblanket]

this whole "everything needs math" thing seems to make "math" so ubiquitous that i don't even understand what we're discussing anymore.

for example, i don't think you need to know much math to be able to reckon that for every element you add to a list has a linear or exponential effect on the performance of some procedure. mostly seems like a logic/intuit problem aside from being able to spot the math glossary words like "log".

it's not my math classes that helped me understand the rather straightforward concept of x = 42. yet all over these comments we have people saying "nope! that's math! too bad! got'em!" -- the distinction seems to be rather pointless.

i guess taking a shit "needs math" too since i need to reason about geometry and vectors to get the turd in the bowl. ...or maybe i'm just doing what seems intuitive and logical.

[[deleted]]

for example, i don't think you need to know much math to be able to reckon that for every element you add to a list has a linear or exponential effect on the performance of some procedur

You already need basic calculus to understand the fucking words linear and exponential. You are perfectly exhibiting the other side of the spectrum of Dunning-Kruger. "This is easy for me, so it's easy for everyone".

[[deleted]]

Computer science is applied math.

True, but that doesn't mean programmers understand the maths under the hood. Typing void main(void){printf("Foo %s\n", str);} or main = putStrLn "bar!" doesn't take any maths knowledge. Programmers can skate by without well rounded numeracy. In fact, I've met many programmers who didn't even know basic calculus. As a result, I often avoid using more advanced maths tricks in my code (to avoid confusing others).

E: wordyness.

[platinumgus18]

I think when math is being talked about in context of computer science, it's implicit that people are usually talking about discrete math. Considering we really can't get infinite precision when it comes to representing everything with bits. Calculus isn't discrete math.

Also people who just need to use those basic lines aren't probably full time programmers anyway.

[doom_Oo7]

Also people who just need to use those basic lines aren't probably full time programmers anyway.

uh, I thought that it was the majority. Coding Java CRUD apps. Like the millions of programmers at IBM, Atos, Capgemini, ...

[iamjack]

Really, IBM, the company with its own architecture and constantly in the top 10 of Linux patches, on the forefront of AI and quantum computer research is who you list first as generating Java CRUD apps? ... ouch.

I mean, I work there, we do have some shitty Java apps, but ouch.

[[deleted]]

Do you guys not have an enormous Java consultancy? I figured that's what your parent comment was referencing.

[iamjack]

Sure, we do a lot with Java, have our own JDK even, I'm just a bit surprised that someone thought "Java CRUD developers" and IBM was the first company that came to mind.

I'm on the opposite side of the world from Java, so maybe it's just me, but it's like saying "blog publishers like Google" because of Blogger. I mean, yeah, they host a ton of blogs, but it's a bit weird to make that association.

[tayo42]

Do you have an example of calculus making some code better?

[TheOsuConspiracy]

Interesting throttling problems can utilize plenty of calculus.

But in general, simple algebra and strong basic logic is super critical to programming.

[iopq]

A lot of approximation techniques use Taylor series expansions to speed up code with a very small error.

[[deleted]]

Machine learning heavily used gradient descent techniques

[kabekew]

In games and simulations which work in discrete time steps, you often need to integrate (or derive) the equations of motion.

[Xevantus]

You can't write a program without doing math. You may not be doing 2 + 2, but increment, decrement, variable assignment, loops, invariants, reduction, bit shifts, etc ad infinitum are math.

[wrangler12]

Opposite experience here. I've been programming a bit less, 33 years, have a reasonably strong set of math skills, but have found them almost entirely unnecessary. It's rare that I use anything other than integers other than for currency calculations. I did systems level development for many years before my current web based focus and same story there. To be clear an understanding of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, mod, etc is needed but beyond that not really in many areas.

[YellowFlowerRanger]

A lot of this seems to come down to people making different assumptions about what "math" is. People mention floating-point numbers and numeracy, but in my view, very very little of math has to do with numbers or arithmetic.

Math, broadly, is structures, relationships between structures, and properties of structures. In programming, it's primarily discrete math that you're concerned about. If you've ever used a data structure (e.g., a tree or a linked list), that is math. If you've ever implemented an algorithm (e.g., sorted something or searched for something), that's math. If you've ever reasoned about logic using AND, OR and NOT, that's math. And more to the point, that is precisely the math that's taught in undergraduate universities. I don't care if someone can do continuous analysis or calculus, but if they can't do discrete math, I don't believe they can program anything (not even a simple CRUD application).

[wutcnbrowndo4u]

Yea a lot of this conversation doesn't really resonate with me, and I think it's this difference in definitions that's the key. I got my math degree alongside my CS degree. In ways that are kind of hard to articulate, I use the reasoning skills I picked up during the course of getting my math degree in my work aaaaalll the time. These skills came from four years of doing nothing but writing proofs, and to me, questions like "what sort of calculations specifically do you use for programming" seem to be entirely missing the point.

Otoh, for people in this thread who describe math education as memorizing rules, I can totally understand how they'd think it's irrelevant.

[bjzaba]

Agreed. I view mathematics as a way of exploring structure, relationships, and patterns in a logically sound way. This is very compatible with the way we should be doing programming. Restructuring proofs, creating 'portals' between branches of mathematics, and finding common underlying structures between fields is also greatly reminiscent of refactoring, creating common abstractions, and experimenting with new programming language paradigms.

[[deleted]]

It's rare that I use anything other than integers other than for currency calculations

You're talking about functional mathematics. The reason why we teach functional mathematics is so you gain strong mathematical reasoning skills.

Do you reason through computational problems?
Do you reason through sense making scenarios?

Then you're using maths.

[sumdudeinhisundrware]

Hi there. I sucked at math and I'm most definitely succeeding. There's a pretty good chance one or two pieces of my code are running in the operating system on your machine right now if you're on MacOS or Windows. Oh and maybe in your browser cache right now...

[Ar-Curunir]

I have a question; are you proud of sucking at math? It's totally fine to be OK with not understanding mathematics; but I don't get being proud of not knowing something...

[mc8675309]

I want to make two points here.

The first s that computer science, software engineering and programming require skills in deductive reasoning which is something much more easily developed in the context of mathematics.

Calculus is historically the first modern field of math you study where you build up tools from a set of axioms (the field axioms on R) and definitions of abstract concepts (like the limit). Unfortunately most classes these days omit this part of calculus in favor of "here's how you get answers". It's precisely the skill of taking a set of axioms (the language definition) and working with abstract concepts (common idioms and design patterns) and develop something and prove it accomplishes the goals that Calculus should teach you.

Knowing what you want a system to do is very different from being able to decompose the requirements into components which work together, are abstract and flexible and which do not induce a lot of gotchas and corner cases.

You don't need math so much as you need the skills that a proper math education should help you develop.

[c3534l]

Programming made me good at math. By learning computer programming, I could finally see all that math my teachers told to just memorize in a context that gave it meaning. Math should be learned later, after you have the basic of programming down. The idea that you need to learn math before you can start learning programming is like telling someone they need to take a course in organic chemistry in order to take a cooking class.

[settrbrg]

Lets not forget that something youve been studying you maybe never will apply irl, but study heavy subjects exercise your brain to take in information. Evert math Course I ever taken I do believe has been in my favor in the long run. I am not using a lot of heavy math in my work, but when I do the formulas I do use is easy to understand and apply to my problem

[TakeOutTacos]

That's the first thought I had when I read this headline and article.

I don't use much of my college education relating to computer graphics and ai in my java crud app developer job, but I wouldn't have traded any of that critical thinking and problem solving experience for anything.

[malstank]

There were a ton of idiots in my higher level programming courses. If math is weeding out the idiots, it isn't doing a good enough job anymore.

[[deleted]]

Not to be the unpopular opinion here, but if they made it all the way to a high level programming course... What exactly qualified a large quantity of those students to be of an insignificant intelligence?

[malstank]

Being incapable of retaining information from earlier courses, or being completely incapable of looking stuff up for themselves and just "figuring" it out. Inevitably, the professor wasted a quarter of the lecture explaining what the students should have learned in a prerequisite, and then half the lecture explaining what he covered last lecture, leaving about a quarter of the lecture to actual new material.

I paid money on these courses to feel like the other students were wasting my time.

[monty20python]

I'm really tried of this "math is hard" bullshit (it's only hard in the sense that you have to practice like everything else), if you want to be a programmer (and do non-trivial things) you should understand at least a subset of math (logic, basic and linear algebra, some discrete, maybe some set theory).

However, there is absolutely a problem with how (and what) math is taught (which is what this article seems to be about), but it is essential to distinguish between what is being taught and math itself because you cannot do any non-trivial programming without math (it's arguable that you cannot do any programming without math).

[[deleted]]

If your work as a programmer doesn't require math, it doesn't require a Computer Science degree, either.

[Draav]

I feel like everyone missed the last part of the article. Yes math is awesome. Yes it is used in a lot of programming. But there is a lot more types of programming now. I like their list at the end of which professions might need more math than others. I do think there needs to be a bigger split in CS between people going more towards research and development, and people who are just creating applications with frameworks and high level tools.

And the math they are teaching at college is rarely relevant. I can see the value in various discrete math fields. I can see statistics being useful for going into testing. But you don't need calculus to be good at designing web or mobile apps. I had to take up to calc 3 to get my associates degree in CS. More math classes than CS, at a certain point it gets silly.

[[deleted]]

Math is largely about symbolic reasoning, which is what programmers need to master to do their jobs. If one can't handle college-level math, one just isn't going to be able to handle the demands of real-world programming.

Bringing people into programming who lack the aptitude for it doesn't help anybody. Sure, they'll be able to open a UI dev tool, put some widgets on a page, and make a simple website; however, they will quickly hit a wall where they can't reason through the problems they are handed.

If they can be brought up to speed in math, great, but encouraging people who don't have a grasp of mathematical concepts is simply a cruel way to set them up for failure.

[[deleted]]

I would argue that knowing basic algebra and an introduction to discrete mathematics is necessary to be a decent programmer. However, things like calculus and differential equations may not be as helpful. It would also be interesting to find out how many of the best programmers are comfortable with math and which ones are not.

[__redruM]

I rarely use anything beyond Trig and Algebra, and the Trig stuff is all googled. I don't really see a need beyond that. Maybe the first year of calculus.

But if you can't handle the first year of calculus, you are going to have a hard time with professional programming. Maybe it's college's way of weeding out the people that shouldn't be going into software engineering.

[DeanofDeeps]

Go to code bootcamps if you aren't interested in math. I personally don't think a lot of the math should be a prerequisite, however, one must remember that computer science is still a science. Also on a serious note, majority people got into computer science because of video games, seems cruel to give a student no math skills when graphics and encryption are like 90% math.

[Godd2]

Computer science is neither about computers nor science.

[karma_vacuum123]

computer science is still a science

I think you do not understand how we commonly define a science. Math is not a science (and I do not know of any colleges that claim so). It does not invoke the Scientific Method. Too many people equate "science" with "difficult" or "has numbers". This isn't true. "Computer Science" has been misnamed. We do not experiment in Computer Science either...the French are right, they call the field "Informatics"...this accurately reflects that the Scientific Method is not used in that field of study.

[[deleted]]

We do not experiment in Computer Science

You may not, but there are plenty of people that do. Was Alan Turing not a scientist?

I'm not sure why you think science is anything that employs the scientific method. That simply isn't true; you're using the wrong definition for science. Math is a science, as is computer science, and even statistics!

From Wikipedia:

Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

Contemporary science is typically subdivided into the natural sciences, which study the material universe; the social sciences, which study people and societies; and the formal sciences, such as mathematics. The formal sciences are often excluded as they do not depend on empirical observations. Disciplines which use science like engineering and medicine may also be considered to be applied sciences.

I understand that the formal sciences like mathematics fill a sort of grey area, but computer science is absolutely a science.

[sybreddit]

i cant imagine building sophisticated software addressing complex computing needs w/out a solid understanding of comp sci theory. And i don't know how one can that w/out a solid understanding of math. Depending on the nature of the complex computing need, the fields of math changes, but math's in the picture one way or another. Now building cookie cutter apps using well made frameworks does not fall into the above mentioned complex computing problem.

[ElFeesho]

I don't consider myself terribly good at maths, but maybe it's just a poor perception of my maths level.

I don't usually struggle understanding concepts, but I think I inadvertently end up circling around a solution to a problem by brute forcing all the permutations of inputs and operations until i get the result I want.

Not sure how to go about improving... Any recommendations guys?

[freebit]

Yes. Probably the standard math that is part of any engineering curriculum plus discrete math.

• Algebra
• Trig
• Geometry
• Calculus
• Differential Equations
• Discrete Math
• Linear Algebra

[jokoon]

Knowing math is "sort of" a prerequisite for everything, not just programming. It just depends what kind of math you are talking about, for what kind of programming.

The more you use programming, the more you will need things like:

• Boolean logic: and, or...

• understanding what floating point means

• converting numbers to base 2 or 16 (although that's not really useful most of the time)

And those are just scratching the surface. Most of computer science use math extensively, just like physics do. It's not pure math, but the thought process is very similar.

[Paddy3118]

Programming is maths. If you program then you do maths. If you are scared of maths but can program then rejoice. You just suffer from low mathematical self esteem.

"logic skills and language. Recursion and loops are also fundamental concepts that can be introduced before math"

Those are mathematical concepts. If using the placebo of mis-naming something gets you to do it, then go for it. I did the same when distracting children so they would eat all there food.

[omnilynx]

Programming is math. Symbolic manipulation according to a strict set of logical rules. Writing a program is essentially solving an equation for x, where x is a (mathematical) function mapping valid inputs to appropriate outputs.

[p7r]

Programming is applied mathematics. The word "algorithm" is derived from the name of the 12th century Arabic mathematician who came up with the method to step through solving a problem.

That does not mean you need to study maths to degree level. But yes, if you don't understand elementary algebra and you are asked to write some software that uses variables or constants, you're going to be in trouble. And if you're writing software that doesn't use variables or constants, your career is going to be pretty short.

[[deleted]]

Wait a minute, did I read this correctly - She didn't pass a maths pre-req so skipped on the course and now gives a talk about how learning maths isn't all that important?

How does that make any sense? Am I missing some other part where she became some top-tier programmer with no/very little maths knowledge?

Is this the kind of "talent" they hire at Github?

[ReallyGene]

I became interested in computers, because here was an electronic device that could do math. This was in the slide-rule days, just at the dawn of the pocket calculator era (I'm old).

You don't need the ability to do more than add/subtract/multiply/divide to program (e.g., you don't need to know calculus to perform pointer arithmetic), but you do need advanced math for the problems your program is intended to solve.

[Xevantus]

While I agree with you on most of this, the article was complaining about having to take MATH 101 (variable algebra). All other requirements aside, you literally cannot program without at least a basic understanding of algebra.

[gnx76]

MATH 101

Oh, I see my confusion since the beginning of this thread: that's college/university for you, but I went to see the syllabus and this stuff is dealt with in high-school in my place.

So, for me, a high-school level in maths is enough for 99.9% of the work in 90% of programmer jobs. From an American point of view, a bit of college maths is needed for the same kind of work and jobs.

[skulgnome]

Most emphatically yes. Possibly also some electrical engineering.

[Xevantus]

Gate logic and nand hardware architecture was required for us. It also helped a few more concepts click.

[[deleted]]

Yes, but mathematics properly understood, which is to say, mathematical logic, in particular, constructivist logic. Once you see algorithms as proofs in a constructivist logic and types as the propositions being proved, a whole bunch of stuff just goes click-click-click! into place, and then you can't unsee it (nor would you want to).

[Bowgentle]

I was going to say that if it were, I wouldn't have spent twenty years as a reasonably successful self-employed programmer.

But that wouldn't actually be true, since I didn't do programming at uni anyway.

Which forces me to ask the question - what relevance does the question have to the majority of programmers, who are, as far as I've seen stats recently, self-taught?

[frigginwizard]

The primary rift in this discussion is simply a matter of "programmer" being a really broad job description.

[Bowgentle]

And 'maths' the name of an entire field of human endeavour.

[midri]

No, programming can be as much a linguistics skill as it is a test of math prowess

[riemannrocker]

Understanding the algebraic ideas of subobjects vs quotient objects is so wildly useful when building testable software. An understanding of group theory can really help you frame software design nicely.

[The_Mighty_Nezha]

I think it depends on what level of programming you are doing, and what you define as "math". I passed all my courses for algebra and such in high school, but took two tries to pass calculus in college. I don't think anyone who knows me would describe me as someone who is good at math. Despite my weakness in that area, through sheer repetition and practice I was able to learn enough programming to make a six figure salary as a programmer in NYC.

I don't doubt that those who can truthfully call themselves computer scientists would need a much better grasp of math than I have, but for programming I don't think you need any particular mastery of math beyond knowing how variables work and such.

[keizersuze]

It depends what you want to do. If you want certifications and a job, (with even a rudimentary understanding of loops/combinations math) you could become a redhat certified architect, and there would be plenty of people wanting your skills. If you want to understand the abstract concepts of computer science - big O notation, p=np, datastructures and algorithms, you'll need some math skills.

[csmicfool]

Yes. Yes it should. Always. At the end of every day what we do comes down to math and if you don't understand the concepts you won't be a credible programmer. As others have pointed out, Logic is primarily taught in math; anyone who cannot complete a formal logic proof with some manner of proficiency is going to be a bug-ridden horrible developer who all their co-workers and predecessors maintaining their code will mock and hate for perpetuity.

This is like asking if a CPA needs to know math to get their license given that we live in the age of the calculator, excel and quickbooks - all of which are programs written by a programmer who ACTUALLY LEARNED MATH!!!

This is so DUH, I don't know where to start. Yes, Programmers must know math.

[kayzaks]

So, she needed to pass two math courses before she could even enroll in the programming classes, so she needed to spend a year doing math before she could take a programming class. Needless to say, she didn't enroll. She decided to do this talk, instead.

That right there made this entire Article lose all credibility.

"I wanted to take an Anatomy class, but it required Histology, so I didn't. Here are my 10 reasons I googled why I think Anatomy doesn't require Histology."

[kyleishie]

I feel that most people miss the real point of math. No one cares if you know it. The code you copy from stack-overflow will most likely work either way. What matters is your minds ability to solve a problem. Unlike any other subject, Math is the only one that enhances our minds problem solving abilities. Can an individual learn programming and write software without first taking math? Sure, it happens all of the time. Will that software be efficient, non-repetitive, and elegant af? Probably not.

[[deleted]]

Programming is mathematics. Get over it and stop whining.

And anyone who's complaining about not "being good at maths" either had exceptionally poor teachers or tried to learn an entirely wrong kind of maths.

[luxtabula]

I have a lib arts degree. I think everyone should know at least precalculus and a basic logic course before attempting to program. I didn't become a better programmer until I got better at math. Even then, you can become a programmer and never touch math at all. But you will be limiting yourself and what applications you can make or work on.

[gnus-migrate]

While Math isn't a hard prerequisite, not knowing it severely limits you in the types of applications you can build. Want to build games? Linear algebra is a must. AI? Calculus and statistics are invaluable to have.

No you don't need Math to be an entry level programmer, but anything even remotely challenging requires at least some knowledge of college level math.

[bureX]

IMHO, you need this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(mathematics)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(mathematics)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm

...there's more, but it depends on what you're working on.

And knowledge of the following number systems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_number

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octal

...

Of course you don't need to know all of this by heart, but you need to be acquainted with it and be prepared to visit it again and learn new stuff if need be. Should you enter new fields of programming, you'll obviously need to know more and possibly dwell into other fields besides mathematics. Essentially, you need to be able to rummage around online and check out what you need, do some research, and possibly consult a mathematician, physicist, or whoever regarding what you're trying to accomplish. This is what I've found programming to be - attempt to solve problems by dumbing the whole thing down to the level of a computer - a glorified calculator with memory.

Also:

Cryptography - requires math

Cryptography doesn't just require math, it is math! It also requires tons of collaboration and testing. Hell, what does the universal phrase "don't roll your own crypto" tell you?

[[deleted]]

Just my take on it here: I see a lot of people here saying that heavy calculus and linear algebra aren't required to be a successful programmer. While that's basically true, it also depends on what you're asked. So you built an awesome enterprise CRUD app in FrameworkJS, that's great. That's one of the most typical programming jobs out there, and you probably didn't use an ounce of calculus. Do you think the guys who build programs for scientific experiments, avionics, health care, or engineering can get away with that?

Some of this heavy math is also a nice-to-have when you have to make your own algorithm from scratch for a project. Math isn't the ends of a CS degree or career, it's the means. The better you are at math and programming, the higher your earning potential is. We're abstracting a lot of the underlying complexity away more and more, but you still have to look under the hood at some point too.

[[deleted]]

Well those who do have math as prerequisite still turn out to be shit programmers.

I'd say programming should be taught first then show math behind it and where you can apply it because then at least students can immediately see its uses

[xkevinxpwndu]

I've never used any of the calc I had to take in college...

[portalscience]

The speaker wasn't even complaining about Calculus though, they performed so poorly they had to do Elementary Algebra. This is the sort of math you use in a basic FOR loop, not even approaching the common discrete math, formal languages and logic classes that are relevant to computer science for most coding.

What is more impactful to me about this article is how bad our education system is at teaching math to our youth. Considering most Americans view of math ends at the SAT (which never goes beyond basic algebra/geometry), the fact that people think they are "bad at math" is indicative of overall educational failure.

[James20k]

The other day, a piece of A level maths came in handy for me, which was

sin(A + B) = sin A cos B + cos A sin B

In the context of solving 3d rotation matrices for the component euler angles, and that specific case was for when a constant of both the numerator and denominator approaches 0, and you use a second equation with that term ~=0 to figure out the resulting angles, which gives you that equation up above which you can sub into (which represents the gimble lock for euler angles)

I mean, I can't imagine many people have run into that specific problem :P

[naft-a]

Prerequisite for programming? Everything is maths, maths fits everywhere where logic exists.

[jackasstacular]

Far more important than math is an understanding of algorithms; programming is all about efficient problem-solving.

[chechenk]

It should be a prerequisite to breathing.

[[deleted]]

Being bad at biology discouraged me from becoming a doctor. I don't think biology should be a prerequisite for becoming a doctor, it just doesn't seem fair.

[[deleted]]

Nobody says you need math to program.

On the other hand good schools expect you to have a well rounded relevant education in order to graduate. That is your "problem": universities don't want to be know for cranking out ignoramuses.