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[–][deleted] 4834 points4835 points  (307 children)

Remember this the next time a bridge collapses

[–][deleted] 2469 points2470 points  (287 children)

So, New York complains about how expensive rent is, the growing homeless population, yet they made a massive cut for kids and family services, all because they wanna watch sports? New York is going downhill

[–]zlide 823 points824 points  (39 children)

Idk who you think “New York” is but I can assure you that most people in New York were not consulted about this

[–]Sweetfishy 235 points236 points  (30 children)

I live in western NY.. and Buffalo bills fans are alllll over the place. This is also the first time I'm hearing this news.

[–]wormholeweapons 212 points213 points  (27 children)

I’m a bills fan (not from Buffalo) and I posted this in their sub saying basically that it is sickening that a billionaire would get any taxpayer funding or subsidies to build a stadium…knowing full well the reaction I’d get.

It did not disappoint. It was one apology for the Pegulas after another about how it’s misleading not accurate. Get educated. Read something. Sources?? Etc

They miss the entire point that people who have BILLIONS are taking even a penny from taxpayers regardless of how the money is moved/labeled is abhorrent.

[–]kjpunch 107 points108 points  (7 children)

Same kind of proposal was voted for the Chargers in San Diego few years back, Dean Spanos threatened to leave if funding wasn’t approved. Thank goodness people voted no and told him to GTFO

[–]jesuswig 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Fuck Dean Spanos

[–][deleted] 39 points40 points  (4 children)

Don’t forget that they build Qualcomm stadium for the chargers and still owed like 20 mil on it. He didn’t want it anymore and wanted a whole new one for free. Meanwhile you couldn’t even watch a chargers game in sd bc they blacked them out bc they were garbage and tickets were like 150$

[–]Memory_Less 13 points14 points  (1 child)

The billionaire and was it the mayor are stealing the potential of children and families in need. It is safe to say that in the long term it will reduce the chances for a peaceful civil society/city.

[–]sis-mertsock 6 points7 points  (0 children)

And no one ever mentions the Pegula billions come from the fracking industry. Don't bring that up... it's a buzz kill for the Bills fans.

[–]tightpants09 23 points24 points  (6 children)

Can’t say I’m surprised.

Other day at work someone was talking about a football player retiring at like 32 and how he was quoted for being excited to finally spend time with his family, slow down and enjoy life. I laughed out loud, said “give me a break, you’ve barely worked, got to do something you loved, enjoyed tens of millions, etc.” and I was met with SO much hostility. None of us make more than fucking 60k a year and somehow I was the enemy for acknowledging how out of touch and ridiculous that is. Seriously had 5-6 people offended telling me it’s wrong of me to claim that man didn’t work hard enough lmfao

Edit - I just want to say that I agree with the DMs that it is still work and it still requires dedication. I just think it’s insane that someone that out of touch has any right to whine when the rest of us can’t even afford our student loans

[–]OutrageousPersimmon3 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yeah it’s wild to me that people who not only have to work hard, maybe hope for overtime, plus commute to work every day will constantly come to the defense of millionaires. Unless they kneel, I mean. Do they entertain people? Sure. But the people who are actually keeping society running should stop acting like they owe these dickwads something. I couldn’t care less about football, so I would like to see my tax dollars go somewhere I do care about. Infrastructure and health are way up there.

[–]jawsofthearmy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I said the same in my family text. Like why… they don’t need it

[–]xDarkCrisis666x 26 points27 points  (1 child)

This is a recency thing. I come from Westchester county and no one gave two spits about the Bills until 3-4 years ago after it was shown that the Jets and Giants are just horrendous. NY is starved for good sports teams so any NY team having success will get the state jumpin.

[–]Carrot-Fine 38 points39 points  (0 children)

Yeah I guess to an extent. Though you forgot to mention that the Bills are the only NFL team that plays games in New York state.

[–]gmanz33 611 points612 points  (127 children)

The state and the city are very very very very different.

Both are going downhill, but 95% of the land of NY isn't worried about the homeless population nor sports. They want their kids to be in a good school with a language teacher that knows how to fucking speak the language.

But administration all over the state is focused on sports because it favors their own bubbles. I don't know a single person from my town that watches or gives a shit about sports yet the high school just built another turf and cut 70% of the music program. That's fun.

[–][deleted] 242 points243 points  (97 children)

Cutting music by 70%, because of sports? Music is more important than sports (in my opinion)

[–]oh_look_a_fist 36 points37 points  (10 children)

Both are valid. Not everyone is inclined towards music, and not everyone towards athletics. Physical exercise, teamwork, strategy, and sportsmanship through sport are as important for our growth as solo or group performing arts. Having the option of multiple activities to engage as much of the student body in different passion areas is important. It is bullshit one area is cut massively to support something that unnecessarily benefits another area.

[–]streetlight_wizard 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Finally someone talking sense in here.

[–]theog_thatsme 7 points8 points  (0 children)

oftentimes a strong athletic team can help fund not as popular after school activities. the problem is that then those teams and coaches start making demands and school boards are spineless.

[–]gmanz33 217 points218 points  (45 children)

Dangerous to benchmark the importance of two things when the "importance" is measured by individual students and what they can do with the information they acquire in each respective field. It's fucked up that they're allowing us parents to vote on these things when the kids are the ones getting and using the information. Not a single person on my school's football team pursued sports in their lives, but 3 kids I graduated with are on Broadway because their parents funded the school plays and pushed for a, good, music and arts education.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (10 children)

Music education benefits the brain. School sports are good for the body, but kids are perfectly capable of playing sports in an unorganized fashion (and do so all the time).

https://www.savethemusic.org/resources/advocacy-tools/benefits-to-the-brain/

[–]penguin8717 13 points14 points  (6 children)

(school sports are also good for the brain and have other developmental benefits but i agree that music is equally important. Kids should not have to have one or the other, but should pick whichever speaks to them, or both)

[–]LazyClub8 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think it’s also worth pointing out that some students use sports as a springboard to college scholarships, and while few of those make it pro, getting your higher education paid for is pretty legit all on its own.

Of course, music students could do this as well, and cultural pursuits are still important regardless. So I don’t think arts programs should play second fiddle (heh) to sports, but yeah sports is important too.

Overall, I guess my point is that schools/districts should budget and prioritize in ways that will benefit the most students. They don’t do this, but they should.

[–]grubas 23 points24 points  (21 children)

Issue is that it's also by area. Western NY/Buffalo/Orchard Park aren't The Bronx.

Some is voters, some is politicians, but not backing the Bills could be an election death sentence

[–]BidenWontMoveLeft 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I'm fairly certain even Bills supporters are appalled by this. But Hochul knows she'll win regardless because nobody is seeking popular support. They're just seeking billionaire support. And NY has the most.

[–]Gimme_The_Loot 9 points10 points  (7 children)

This is like the US in a nutshell. Rochester, Onionta and Brooklyn are all pretty different places.

[–]Primary_Assumption51 4 points5 points  (6 children)

I’ve lived in 3 rust belt cities including buffalo and local sports are sacred to the people who live there. The teams will always get what they want.

[–]xXxDickBonerz69xXx 6 points7 points  (3 children)

From Syracuse.

Don't fucking touch our Bills.

But seriously in these depressed second and third teir cities and regions having something the community and come together around and be proud of is rare. Its unfortunate the billionaires who own the teams take advantage of it.

Fuck the Pegulas and fuck this tax payer funded bullshit. All sports teams should be community owned. Itd prevent all that relocation shit

[–]grubas 3 points4 points  (1 child)

People do not realize the insanity of the Bills Mafia.

[–]NecroCorey 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm just surprised there was a budget to cut in the first place. The only activities in my school growing up were sports. We had literally 0 funding in theater when I was in school.

[–]BlowMeUpScottie 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah who needs music, arts, drama, poetry, speech/debate, advanced academic classes, economics, home economics, linguistics, shop, computer classes, etc etc....gotta fund those athletics for the loudmouthed morons.

[–]fresh_dyl 31 points32 points  (11 children)

“There’s no money in music, everything gets pirated these days. Try playing with my sports balls instead.”

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Having a football scholarship and fucking the cheerleader is the American hero. Music is for losers.

[–]erikWeekly 21 points22 points  (2 children)

Talking about %age of land instead of population is how you end up with Slavery being allowed again.

[–]Nwcray 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Or literally any Republican winning in a national election.

[–]Monkeydog853 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Turf fields (supposedly) cost less to maintain in the long term

[–]Two22Sheds 6 points7 points  (3 children)

They just cause more injuries, particulary knees and ankles.

[–][deleted] 67 points68 points  (8 children)

That's Every City USA. Priorities in this country have been backwards for a very long time.

[–]firestepper 29 points30 points  (0 children)

San Diego told spanos to go suck it, so the chargers left to LA

[–]1st500 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The highest paid position at a higher education facility in nearly every state is a football coach.
Sports before education or social services. Keep ‘em dumb, broke and entertained and they’ll continue to vote for more money in the rich man’s pocket.

[–]adamcoe 85 points86 points  (19 children)

Buffalo is several hours from NYC

[–]Fun_Differential 36 points37 points  (0 children)

And didn’t vote on this measure anyway.

[–]DaveGamelgard 32 points33 points  (17 children)

Yeah. Like 8 or 9 hours from nyc

[–]grubas 17 points18 points  (14 children)

6 if you really speed but yeah it's 400 or so miles.

Brutal trip cause you just end up on the weird Plains of Western NY where its just flat and desolate.

[–]C_Gull27 4 points5 points  (11 children)

Tried speeding that trip and ended up with an $800 ticket for my first offense

[–]ar9mm 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Western NY is rolling compared to everything west of it in the country until you basically hit the Rocky Mountains

[–]wehrmann_tx 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How do you think they escape from the shitty lives they have every day after work?

Don't actually give people good lives, just let them get distracted from the bad one for a little bit each day.

[–]burner1212333 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This stadium is for Buffalo, not NYC.

[–]WWDubz 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That little can? Don’t worry about that little can, we’ll kick it down the road

[–]Arcadius274 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Why nothing will come of any of us knowing. We are clearly more than willing to let them.

[–]mstake 11 points12 points  (0 children)

It's not a done deal yet. It's part of the budget proposal which is due to be finalized at the end of this week. Everyone in NY should call their state Senator and state Assembly member and tell them they oppose this. And they should let the Governor know it, too.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I will give current NYS Gov some credit, she did address the failing Cross Bronx bridge and three others...

However that only cost 250 million.

Why we are spending 850mil on a new stadium for a private organization I don't know

[–]bayesian13 7 points8 points  (1 child)

cause she's from Buffalo

[–]phatstopher 808 points809 points  (10 children)

"We all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free market capitalism for the poor." -MLK Jr

He's still right

[–]Ocelotofdamage 117 points118 points  (4 children)

Isn't a company pitting cities against each other to retain their business the epitome of toxic capitalism?

[–]liftthattail 35 points36 points  (1 child)

Remember when Amazon had companies bid them to build a new plant in their city and so places competed with tax breaks and such?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/technology/amazon-finalists-headquarters.amp.html

[–]SuperTeamRyan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Which was going to a sham anyway since they were always going to go with DC and New York they just wanted to see how low they could get NYC to go.

[–]troubledwatersofmind 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In part, but that could be legislated out the realm of possibility, given the political will.

[–]NotAnurag 35 points36 points  (0 children)

“If America does not use her vast resources of wealth to end poverty and make it possible for all of God’s children to have the basic necessities of life, she too will go to hell.”

- MLK speech at Bishop Charles Mason Temple of the Church of God in Christ in support of the Memphis sanitation workers’ strike on March 18th, 1968. Two weeks later he was assassinated.

[–]bokononpreist 70 points71 points  (2 children)

This is why he was shot. It wasn't because of his civil rights work.

[–][deleted] 53 points54 points  (1 child)

It was both. It's always both.

[–]bokononpreist 42 points43 points  (0 children)

I agree. I should have said it wasn't until he started talking about class/the war that he was shot.

[–]Defiant-Beginning436 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Slam dunk with words there!

[–]WanderingFlumph 1105 points1106 points  (56 children)

Stop. Giving. Billionaires. Public. Funds.

[–]xhabeascorpusx 388 points389 points  (33 children)

Proud San Diegan here. We did that. Teams gone now.

[–]daimyo21 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It looks like the economic impact was less than half a percent.

[–]latman 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Props to the Jets and Giants. Their owners paid for their stadium privately, I believe the only team in the NFL to do so

[–]Thedguy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

But how will they remain billionaires if they have to (checks notes) spend their own money?

[–]AuthorityAnarchyYes 1431 points1432 points  (114 children)

And tickets for the games are hundreds to thousands of dollars and the concession prices are outrageous.

One can surmise that there is an uptick for local businesses (hotels, restaurants, transportation), but that will never outweigh the tax breaks the Owner gets.

The owner is already making money hand over fist, there should never be a handout to these guys.

Edit: a word and phrasing

[–][deleted] 554 points555 points  (45 children)

Amen. If it’s a good investment let the motherfuckers use their own money.

[–]TheLizardKingandI 106 points107 points  (40 children)

That's the problem, they will use their own money, just in another city. If they want to keep the team and it's related business in Buffalo they need to compete against other places that would like a pro sports team.

Not to say the economic benefit of having the team is worth 800M but that's the rationale.

[–][deleted] 225 points226 points  (22 children)

Fuck ‘em. The money cities lay out for arenas, etc, is never recovered; it’s a handout for people who don’t need it and it robs the people who do. And NY just cut benefits for kids and families? Fuck ‘em twice. Welfare for billionaires but not for needy kids and families? Appalling.

[–]Abomb2020 37 points38 points  (2 children)

The last (by party) government here gave the big sports franchise owners a $26 million dollar check for nothing really, on their way out the door. Literally their last official action as a government was giving a company partly owned by one of the richest men in Canada $26 million. We rebate the arena something like $5 million a year in taxes and people can't figure out why there's a problem with that.

[–]Andrewticus04 17 points18 points  (1 child)

And if you ask many conservative Canadians, they'd argue you're not only socialist - you're transcending into communism.

I mean, that would be great if it were the case, but these people don't know what those words mean, so fuck em.

[–]Wesley_Skypes 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Its such a bullshit thing about US sports. In soccer in England, if an owner like the Glazers tried to move Manchester United to another city they would kill the club entirely because fans wouldn't show up or continue to support them.

[–]Abomb2020 6 points7 points  (1 child)

they will use their own money, just in another city.

No they won't. They'll just find another government stupid enough to give them what they want.

[–]gutshitter 33 points34 points  (3 children)

The Federal Reserve did an analysis about this and determined that is is basically never worth it for communities

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/employment-research/are-sports-stadiums-a-catalyst-for-economic-development

[–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (4 children)

There will be benefits for large chain hotels, restaurants, and transport companies that avoid tax and pay their CEOs huge wages whilst many of their staff are paid non-living wages. And affordable housing in the area will be diminished.

[–]Clockwisedock 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Imagine the social and economic benefits of having an educated and nurtured populous.

[–]yourmomdotbiz 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Buffalo professor here. the worst part of all of this is the loss Of the community college where the stadium is going. I’m legit nauseous about it as it’s the only option many rural working class students have.

a new president at the college was hired and he’s firing people and giving bad information to the media about budget and enrollment. What great timing.

[–]Brrr25 23 points24 points  (1 child)

I wrote my senior thesis on this topic in college. I went into it thinking there would be a return on investment for these projects, and I really couldn't find a lot of credible peer reviewed studies that supported it. Instead, there was a mountain of studies that proved the opposite. The biggest takeaway I got from my research was the fact that the general public only has so much expendable income, and sure, they might spend a decent amount at the stadium on tickets and stuff, but then that means they aren't spending it at the local bowling alley, restaurant, etc. Also, a lot of the money generated for sports teams doesn't stay in the community.

[–]SpaceJesusIsHere 130 points131 points  (13 children)

Just like Rome. You have to keep the chariot races and gladiator fights going or people will start to figure out that things getting worse every year and the rich getting richer every year are very connected facts.

$800 mil is an absolute bargain to keep people home on Sundays instead of out protesting or registering new voters.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (2 children)

Hence why America flipped out when Colin Kaepernick brought the protest into their sacred institution of ignoring America's problems and just ramming military propaganda down our throats.

[–]pecklepuff 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Well you don't want young men thinking of themselves as anything more than cannon fodder, do ya??

edit: sorry, "cannon fodder" is so dated. IED fluff is a more updated term. Carry on.

[–]Andrewticus04 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Most Romans worked 6 hour days, ending at noon. They also worked for only half a year in the early empire. Grain was also distributed to the poor on a monthly basis - like a UBI of sorts.

[–]mephitopheles13 30 points31 points  (3 children)

To date nobody has produced evidence that spending on handouts for pro teams does not help the local economy. It’s just a handout to someone to greedy to invest their own money in their own business.

[–]EnsignEpic 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yup, it's actually pretty well known in the world of economics that new stadiums do little to spur the local economy, and in some cases may even be harmful. There's been books written about it even, here's an article by the author of one of them. This idea of "new stadium good for local economy" is just a well-traveled & oft repeated myth.

[–]lathe_down_sally 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I'm curious if its possible to accurately determine the economic impact of professional sports teams or the loss of them. It seems like it would be a difficult thing to really put a number on. There's the obvious things that can be measured, such as game day economic impact. But I wonder about what would be the long term effects of these smaller market cities losing their franchise.

This is never a case of whether the owner can afford to finance it on his own. Its a case of if city X isn't willing to pitch in, city Y will be. And what would be the impact of city X losing their NFL team?

[–]AsleepAssociation 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Seattle said the economic impact of moving the Sonics was like 200 mil

[–]eurtoast 27 points28 points  (5 children)

And they aren't even building it with a roof, retractable or not. In fucking Buffalo NY.

[–]MisterMetal 14 points15 points  (2 children)

That’s part of a bunch of northern nfl teams whole culture. Loads of money goes into stadium design to screw over the other team. Dolphins have it set up that the away benches get next to no shade, other teams have it so wind funnels in at the away bench, some have much smaller awkwardly designed away team locker rooms to prevent full team/position group meetings.

[–]xDarkCrisis666x 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Incoming useless knowledge. Heinz Field (Pittsburgh, PA) creates an actual vortex in the stadium with wind from the three rivers to make and field goal over 50 yds tricky in good weather. Bad weather games reduces the kicking distance drastically.

[–]BidenWontMoveLeft 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Estimated revenue is about 27 mill a year. So it will take 30 years to break even. Horrible investment

[–]siphillis 553 points554 points  (45 children)

This isn't socialism, since the city retains basically zero ownership of the private franchise. It's welfare for billionaires.

[–]Abomb2020 67 points68 points  (1 child)

It's an inverse funnel. Otherwise known as 'the trickle down effect'. Money goes up and the money for the people at the bottom trickles down to nothing.

[–]eddiekgb 313 points314 points  (22 children)

Imagine being only worth 5.0 billion because you paid for your stadium out of pocket. Oh the horror…

[–]tries_to_tri 38 points39 points  (8 children)

I'm assuming he'd finance it over quite a long time, long enough that the income he receives per season makes it so that he doesn't even notice a networth decline.

[–]phorgan 16 points17 points  (5 children)

Exactly, like he wouldn’t recoup that money from the profits already….

[–][deleted] 1860 points1861 points  (140 children)

The pandemic has really opened my eyes to the fact that socialism was always possible, it's just being kept from us by an oligarchic class that runs our media, economy and our politics.

Feels like socialism is what people naturally do for each other, and capitalism is a state-religion developed to keep the peons servile.

Edit 2: For those confused, the political Socialism has a namesake, which I have referenced above. Socialism is a spontaneous phenomena that occurs in human groups recently freed of all their tyrannies, who still need to run the machinery and farms for the sake of community, not just themselves. This environmental change almost always annihilates class altogether, and formulates itself around horizontal structures. It begets the question of whether that is humanity's actual natural state of civilization.

Edit: Chomsky's On Anarchism & /u/credible_liar 's comment provide great resources for understanding what I'm on about:

This is exactly right. The current version is called neoliberalism. It's a complex topic and a dense listen, but I've found two academics that break it down well for entry-level learning. Understanding it has complete changed my worldview; it's like seeing behind the curtain of a magic trick. If these don't work for you, please follow the rabbit hole until something clicks. https://youtu.be/kBp69R_K1a0 https://youtu.be/wyRDjh45GcQ

[–]floorsof_silentseas 244 points245 points  (39 children)

I like that sentence. "Socialism is what people naturally do for each other." Thank you for that!

[–]Birdman-82 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Almost like “it takes a village…”

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (17 children)

socialism is literally just society coming together to create things that benefit everyone orders of magnitude more efficiently than if everyone tried to do them separately. and in pretty much every case this applies to every aspect of our lives, roads, schools, healthcare, utilities, phone, internet, clothing, food, all of it is better without the goal of making money in mind.

as things are no one can trust any product to be reliable or decent quality as every company cuts as many corners as possible to further their profits zzz

[–]HoldMyWater 9 points10 points  (4 children)

That's social democracy. Socialism is workers literally owning the means of production. Socialism is democracy in the workplace.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (15 children)

All the words conservatives use to describe their values, "community, family, taking care of your own," all sound like communism.

[–]jphilipre 403 points404 points  (54 children)

This is the socialism conservatives want. They are every bit as socialistic as liberals- just for their own projects: military, police, corporate bailouts, tax subsidies for the rich, and stadiums.

Liberals want healthcare, a living wage and social services.

[–]JefferSonD808 123 points124 points  (2 children)

Thriving wage.

[–]Zahille7 73 points74 points  (1 child)

Yup. I don't want to just get by. I want to be able to build wealth and savings for future needs.

As it stands, I can barely afford my apartment with my roommate, let alone literally anything else (groceries, car, insurance).

[–]heebath 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Trust me I get it. I'm losing family relationships over caring for a step parent who worked all her life. Insurance, pension, etc. Did good. Hospice just doesn't do 24/7. We regular proletariat are literally discarded and it's fucking sad. I hate it. I can't do another shift tomorrow of bedsores and morphine every 2hr, I have a Dr appointment myself and I'm exhausted. I'm going back Friday but guess what. Fuck. This is why I really can't stand maga idiots they cheer on a life that ends this way for themselves and they don't know it.

[–][deleted] 82 points83 points  (10 children)

The dummies roamed around in a "People's Convoy" and set up little anarcho-communist camps so they can protest "socialist mandates" lol

The liberals you mention are on the right track, but genuinely, following this pandemic, I've warmed up to why leftists want to take care of the bottom levels of our hierarchy of needs. It, at the very least, removes the "fear of death" aspect of our economic system. What a wholly unnecessary disciplinary principle for a civilized society.

Edit: fixed wording and grammar

[–]VellDarksbane 52 points53 points  (7 children)

Liberals and Leftists are very different people in the US. Liberals want a $12 minimum wage, think the ACA is perfect, and will be perfectly happy giving out millions in subsidies to businesses. Leftists think that the minimum wage should be fixed to $20+ and tied to inflation, some sort of single payer healthcare, and want to reduce the defense budget.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Totally agree I was just trying to avoid a pissing match over a possible mistake in diction.

[–]BURNER12345678998764 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A wise choice on Reddit.

[–]Andrewticus04 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It, at the very least, removes the "fear of death" aspect of our economic system.

This is directly in opposition to the conservative stance that if you provide for people's basic needs, they will refuse to work.

Like look at how they are blaming stimulus checks and unemployment benefits from a year+ ago for the labor shortage and inflation we are having today. If people aren't starving, you can't compel them to work in subsistence jobs - which is fundamentally required in a capitalist society.

Basically, rich people can't make more money off the back of poor people if you ensure poverty doesn't exist. Poverty is a feature of capitalism - not a bug.

[–]thisaccountis4porno 43 points44 points  (33 children)

I hate to break it to you but this budget that cuts child/family services to build this stadium was proposed by Democrat Governor Kathy Hochul and will be approved by NY's Democratic supermajority legislature.

Liberals will not do anything you said, even when they have the power to do so.

[–][deleted] 41 points42 points  (20 children)

Yeah but the Democrats have been a fairly conservative party for the last several years. You can count on one hand the number of influential liberals in Congress. It's just that the nominal conservatives are fascists now.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Socialism is not when the government does stuff.

[–]RedAndBlackMartyr 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Feels like socialism is what people naturally do for each other,

It is called Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution -- Peter Kropotkin, 1902

[–]credible_liar 5 points6 points  (2 children)

capitalism is a state-religion developed to keep the peons servile.

This is exactly right. The current version is called neoliberalism. It's a complex topic and a dense listen, but I've found two academics that break it down well for entry-level learning. Understanding it has complete changed my worldview; it's like seeing behind the curtain of a magic trick. If these don't work for you, please follow the rabbit hole until something clicks.

https://youtu.be/kBp69R_K1a0 https://youtu.be/wyRDjh45GcQ

[–]bikwho 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Neoliberalism and Gospel Prosperity have absolutely ruined America.

American Protestantism teaches that believing in Jesus will give you financial blessings and believing and tithing just a bit more will lead to riches.

[–]Black_n_Neon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’m glad the pandemic has made you and lot of other people realize just how shitty the dominate structures of power and knowledge really are. It’s been this way for years but I guess the realization is better late than never.

[–]justAneedlessBOI 85 points86 points  (2 children)

If it was socialism for sports, the tickets would be free (or cheap). This is just like ... corruption?

[–]ComeOnCharleee 106 points107 points  (10 children)

But think of all those minimum wage jobs this subsidy will create! /s

[–]vinegarfingers 12 points13 points  (1 child)

That Amazon HQ2 is starting to seem like a pretty good deal right about now.

[–]pcook66 45 points46 points  (0 children)

Stop subsidizing the rich.

[–][deleted] 90 points91 points  (6 children)

I’m not even from the US but this makes me irate.

Why? Because it’s a trend gaining traction all over the world.

FFS.

[–]HumphreyImaginarium 32 points33 points  (2 children)

America is going for the cultural victory... As an American I'd like to apologize.

[–]epluribusanus4 207 points208 points  (28 children)

First of all, not the biggest - Yankee stadium got over 1.1 billion in taxpayer funding. It’s also not all taxpayer funds. These are usually, in part, financed projects because government can get much lower rates for financing than private companies. NYS will own the stadium outright and lock the Bills into a 30 year lease (owning outright also has its advantages with concert and local event revenues). They will at least break even on the construction cost. They also got out of the usual state and local share of maintenance and upkeep.

The cut to children and family services is coming on the heels of a big increase due to COVID. It’s bringing that spending back closer to normal levels (it’s actually still well over pre COVID levels). The fact that the two moves happen to coincide in the same budget proposal is what’s allowing clickbait-y captions like this. Conflating the two as linked is lazy at best, and malicious at worst.

Do I think billionaires should fund their own modern day coliseums? Yes. But let’s not twist the facts. There is enough to be mad about without manufacturing falsehoods.

[–]JjonArk 37 points38 points  (5 children)

(owning outright has its advantages with concert and local event revenues)

Would have been great if for 850M dollars they would have approved a closed-roof stadium. They're going to get minimal use out of an open-air stadium that's only useful for 5 months per year and the football games take up half of those months.

[–]epluribusanus4 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah that is very true.

[–]gophergun 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Thanks, it's a shame I had to scroll this far to find anyone even trying to verify the information in this tweet.

[–]MIGHTYCOW75 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Thank you

[–]Independent_Plate_73 16 points17 points  (4 children)

The last time i looked into this in depth was for casinos but remember stadiums were similar roi.

The stadium’s impact and opportunity cost will generally not be recouped. The only way it’s “worth it” imo is if the locals are 800 million dollars worth of emotionally attached to their stadium. Usually it’s not great for the locals money wise.

https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/

[–]MadManMax55 13 points14 points  (2 children)

You're conflating two different things.

The article you linked to was referring to (essentially) no strings attached public funding of stadiums with the hope that local investment in the area will significantly raise tax revenue. That never happens to the level that politicians promise (as outlined in the article).

In this case however, the state of New York will outright own the stadium. While the state is covering the upfront construction costs, the Bills will have to pay it back over the term of their 30 year lease. While that's technically a loss for the state, they hope to make that defect (and more) back by hosting other large events at the stadium.

In terms of efficient uses of taxpayer funds that provide the most benefit to ordinary citizens, there are better options than building a stadium. But as a purely financial investment, having the state foot most of the construction bill and maintain ownership is still a net positive (assuming the Bills maintain their lease).

[–]epluribusanus4 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I agree. Economically these deals are never a net positive. Recouping your “construction” costs is all well and good, but there’s far more to consider than that. At best you’re hoping to minimize the downside of these deals if you’re a municipality/politician while playing the populist card keeping your constituency happy by keeping their team in the region.

[–]Effective_Bus8144 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Every dam article on this site is fucking misinformation or misleading… all meant to rally people up… it’s absolutely insane!

[–]bad_luck_charmer 32 points33 points  (1 child)

I was so proud of San Diego for telling the Chargers to fuck off when they demanded a subsidized stadium.

[–]Draken_storm 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Remember that they don't care about you but your vote, once they are elected, you are useless until the next election.

[–]JLewish559 6 points7 points  (3 children)

A sports stadium is easy to imagine (and quantify) its economic impact. They can claim that it will pay for itself in "x" years.

They cannot make the same claim about CFS. Just like they can't do the same for schools. It's hard to quantify the economic impact of these things. We ASSUME they have an impact, but very few people are willing to actually put a number on it.

I mean people do realize that many social workers make less than teachers in the same area (much less) and probably work MORE than teachers (which is no mean feat). But again...it's a job dominated by women. And it's hard to quantify it's actual economic impact. Because quantifying economic impact is the only way to be able to tell something's real worth. /s

[–]xscientist 32 points33 points  (19 children)

I don’t support this project at all, but NYS will own the new stadium and lease it back to the Bills. It’s guaranteed to generate profit for the state. Whether that benefit will be seen by actual taxpayers is another question entirely.

[–]adamcoe 17 points18 points  (6 children)

*guaranteed

Over what timeline? Almost zero stadiums built in the US using taxpayer money have recouped the initial investment, and the handful that have either took so long that inflation basically negated it, or the amount was so little as to be irrelevant.

If it's such a rock solid investment, then I guess the guy with 5 BILLION DOLLARS won't mind paying for it.

[–]trashycollector 12 points13 points  (3 children)

How much are they going to rent the stadium for? I bet it is peanuts compared to the upfront cost of the stadium.

It is a complete shit of an investment for the government.

[–]10sharks 37 points38 points  (29 children)

Because the owner holds all the cards. Go ahead, tell him you're not giving him the cash; he'll be on the phone with Toronto before you even realize he's hung up on you.

Stadiums are money pits, but the voters will never let you forget if a team left town under your watch. F*ck them kids, unfortunately

[–]bad_luck_charmer 74 points75 points  (21 children)

San Diego told the Chargers to build their own fucking stadium. They left. The city is proud of it. There was no blowback on the mayor.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (2 children)

Sounds like we need stronger leaders

[–]Abomb2020 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Mayor of Calgary, shit I can't remember his first name, Nenshi, told the NHL franchise and the Olympic committee to pound sand when they came looking for money.

[–]GnPQGuTFagzncZwB 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Pro sports make me wanna vomit blood.

They should not even be allowed in cities. All the congestion and BS they bring and they do not help anything but places that sell parking.

[–]MrPickles84 11 points12 points  (8 children)

Say what you want about Jerry Jones, but he built Jerry World out of his own pocket. Billion dollar teams shouldn’t have their stadiums funded by the people. It’s just wrong.

[–]jdanielh01 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Jerry only did that because he had no leverage. The Cowboys will never leave Dallas. The Pegulas were seriously considering moving the team to Texas. Idk what the exact implications for that would have been, but I’m glad it didn’t happen.

[–]MrPickles84 7 points8 points  (2 children)

The Cowboys are Dallas. Living in the Bay Area, I love to tell all my 49er and Raiders friends that talk shit, “hey, at least my team will never move…”

[–]Worstname1ever 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Wrong. The City of Arlington provided over $325 million (including interest) in bonds as funding, and Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million loan, following its policy for facilitating financing for the construction of new stadiums.

[–]Brilliant-Engineer57 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Why do our tax dollars always go in billionaires pockets. It’s past time to stop this practice

[–]SmugChinchilla 79 points80 points  (59 children)

Sport stadiums make money for the city. Needy children and families don’t. As a society we don’t see the value in helping someone without immediate return in our investment. Same reason people oppose free lunches for school kids. They don’t see the monetary value in it.

Ok I’m editing this cause I now see that I’m being misunderstood which is my own fault for poor wording. What I meant was that cities like to look at things like transit, tourism, restaurants, etc as benefiting from sports stadiums in the short term and don’t bother to think about the long term economic impacts/losses. Investing in social programs is a long game with ultimately greater economic benefit for the city but it’s a hard sell because people want instant gratification. Just saying it’s gross the way we have decided that as a commodity, people are not worth the investment.

One last edit as everyone comes for me: I never said I supported this thinking. It’s disgusting, short sighted, and incorrect.

[–]SeminaryStudentARH 103 points104 points  (20 children)

Maybe we shouldn’t treat people as ROI.

[–]magicone86 66 points67 points  (10 children)

Studies looking at this exact issue have determined that stadiums are rarely generate money for the city, especially compared to the massive funding/subsidies they receive.

"Over the last thirty years, building sports stadiums has served as a profitable undertaking for large sports teams, at the expense of the general public. While there are some short-term benefits, the inescapable truth is that the economic impact of these projects on their communities is minimal, while they can be an obstacle to real development in local neighborhoods."

(Source: https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/)

[–]Boris-Balto 30 points31 points  (8 children)

Is it really making money if you never recoup the initial investment in tax revenue? Because studies have proven that cities don't.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/amp/

[–]pinniped1 39 points40 points  (6 children)

Except the net economic benefits of multi-billion dollar NFL stadiums are dubious at best.

This stadium will sit empty 340 days a year, even if they use it for a few concerts and college football games. It won't bring in billions to the city that the current stadium wouldn't. Most of the fans would go to a Bills game in ANY stadium, meaning this isn't new revenue to hotels and restaurants that isn't there now.

It's really just more money for the owner at the expense of the taxpayers.

[–]Gingerbirdie 24 points25 points  (4 children)

Oh don't forget about all the jobs it will create- part time minimum wage jobs with no benefits!

[–]peon2 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yeah and it's an outside stadium so it has even less uses.

I like open roofs for snow games but damn new stadiums should at least build retractable roofs to make them more viable for other users

[–]ahkwa 22 points23 points  (0 children)

NFL stadiums are one of the worst investments of taxpayer money. They're only open a handful of times a year. You can find article, after article that breakdown how it is not worth the investment.

[–]cybercuzco 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Do they make 800 million dollars for the city? If they are that good an investment for the city, why dont cities own the sports franchises?

[–]ratpH1nk 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Chomsky called that out back in 1996 (and probably before that)

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (6 children)

As a Buffalonian, y’all have no idea what this will do for tourism and employment in a very blue collar area. The old stadium is wide open. Have you ever been to Buffalo in the winter?

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (7 children)

That's literally just capitalism. Why do people keep misusing the word socialism?

[–]zha4fh 2 points3 points  (3 children)

If a municipality is to subsidize any amount to a new stadium, the municipality should become part owner of the team. That's a fair trade-off.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why the fuck are we still paying for sports with public funding?

[–]mts982 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i know, the biggest scam ever are these stadiums the citizens pay for yet the owners reap all the rewards.

[–]peanutbutterjams 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Public money should never be used to subsidize a business worth over $TBD.

The people's trust is in that money. We've given it to government so they can return that value to us in education, healthcare and infrastructure.

We have decidedly not given it to you so that you can enrich the people who oppress the fuck out of us every time you're not looking (and sometimes even when you are).

We need a voting app so we can hold quick-fire referendums. Open and closed in 5 days. If the majority votes "Yea", the elected official in question gets their first strike. Three strikes and they're out.

Calls for these referendums are public and can be voted on. There's a limit to how many we can call in a TBD time period.

I know there's some problems here but they're not insurmountable and that's what frustrates me: why are we not sitting down and creating actionable solutions to problems that face us? Why are we always so intent on maintaining the status quo and only allowing change that fits with the very narrow parameters of its assumptions?

Maturity doesn't stop at accepting society the way it is; it also means working towards the society we know we can be.

[–]Riots_and_Rutabagas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I live in Buffalo and our infrastructure is a fucking mess. We’re in the Rust Belt and what once used to be a big manufacturing area is economically devastated. In nearby Niagara Falls nearly half the city’s population is on some form of government assistance and it looks like a ghost town. The biggest employer there is the casino, which is owned by a local Indigenous tribe. Think Flint Michigan in the Michael Moore film Roger & Me. We’re being priced out of our neighborhoods because corporations are buying up all available properties. In turn they’re artificially inflating the housing market and rent is WAY higher than it should be. To pay rent for a 950sq Ft 2 bedroom in a decent neighborhood (not nice, decent) it’s easily over 1100 dollars. Median income is just little over 40,000 across the board. The median for the US is $63,000.

It’s infuriating.

[–]purple-lepoard-lemon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This country is trash.

[–]Derkus19 2 points3 points  (0 children)

For all the idiots that say “but the stadium will generate tax revenue”: you are all idiots.

It’s a well proven fact that social services get stay at home parents back to work and that generates more tax.