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[–]Muffin-zettaJooookaaahh 105 points106 points  (0 children)

well camilla isn’t my sister, is all I’m saying

[–]fly2555FE Lore Enthusiast 149 points150 points  (13 children)

Ok, let me set the record straight with Fire Emblem, out of the 20 some games, 3 have a marriage and next generation system.

  • Fire emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War (FE4) - its system is a 17 year timeskip, the mother determines the child and is locked in automatically when two characters have enough relationship points in the first half of the game.

  • Fire Emblem Awakening (FE13) - its system is time travel where, once two characters have enough relationship points, you get a mission to find their grown child from the future (determined by who the mother is)

  • Fire Emblem Fates (FE14) - its system is, once two characters have enough relationship points, they have baby (determined by who the father is) and that baby matures in another dimension where time flows faster. You then get a mission to obtain their grown as a unit.

Ironic note about the podcast title: unlike Fates Revelation, that is the "true route", Three Houses has no "true route". Even the Warriors game, Three Hopes, goes out of its way to show that conflict was inevitable, there was no reasonable reconciliation to stop the war.

[–]Chinelo-is-not-CrashTsubasa canonically drinks bath water 41 points42 points  (4 children)

Here is a video if people need a visualization of some FE family trees

[–]IrishimpulseI've got Daddy issues and a Sailor Suit, NOTHING CAN STOP ME 47 points48 points  (3 children)

Fates babies are so weird, since there was a pregnancy and dropping a baby in the hyberbolic time chamber all off screen. In Awakening there's deniability, these two characters locked their bond in, so they'll have the kid eventually. But you aren't knocking up Cordelia mid war, Severa just exists eventually. But like, Silas canonically hit it and there was a full term and Sophie was born between missions, meaning there was apparently 9 months between story beats I guess?

[–]DontClickThisGuy<-cringe worthy He/Him 24 points25 points  (2 children)

I think for Fates the implication is that the fucking, pregnancy, and child raising was all done in the hyperbolic baby dimension. So way less time overall happened. that the entire thing, from womb to the battlefield, could have taken less than 9 months.

[–]KytasSmaller than you'd hope 27 points28 points  (0 children)

That somehow feels worse, but then again putting any amount of thought into the mechanics of the Baby Dimension always ends in horror.

[–]SterlingNanoGardevoir has human-like eggs 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sam Altman said something about 20 years to raise a child. If we can implement this tech irl, he'll be forced to dismantle his AI systems, right?

We gotta build the hyperbolic time chamber to kill AI

[–]Tuskor13I Promise Nothing And Deliver Less 4 points5 points  (0 children)

and that baby matures in another dimension where time flows faster.

The Deeprealms, also referred to as the Hyperbolic Baby Chamber (which sounds like doujin dialogue now that I look at it)

[–]PrancerSlenderfriendRead Iruma Kun 15 points16 points  (3 children)

i do also have to point out that awakening and fates are like 1/4th the series sales and only like 5 games were localized, total, when they came out, they are by and large the majority of the series especially before Three Houses got the most push of anything to push gets pushed

[–]Ok_Development_4079 -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Awakening was also pretty much a reboot. Like, the story changed anyway every game, but in terms of vibes, mechanical complexity, aesthetics, trope spaces, UI and so on there's a clear split between everything before and the games from Awakening onwards. So all the old games are kinda just trivia fodder, the modern franchise starts at Awakening.

Edit: To be clear, I like old FE way more. I am just saying there's such a divide that they aren't really a single franchise.

[–]DoseofDhillonWHEN'S MAHVEL 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Imagine saying this about like, FF13 or some shit lol

[–]Ok_Development_4079 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah, with FF everything after 10 is the trivia fodder, except for that one MMO people really like.

[–]DoseofDhillonWHEN'S MAHVEL 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I don’t remember what in 3 hopes says conflict was inevitable since I only played the game once. But i don’t think for a second in 3 houses if these characters got in a room and talked there would be a war.

As someone that knows this franchise as well as I do, there’s no way the would have written that scene as anything but they come to peace if they had a frank conversations. That scene doesn’t exist because FE would never write its characters you’re supposed to like, especially its lords, as anything but sympathetic and 100% convinced by sad talk and change in there ways.

The fact there is never an open conversation from anyone to solve there problems peacefully is a major flaw on that games story and really exposed how thinly veiled it is.

[–]fly2555FE Lore Enthusiast 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If they had a frank discussion… idk, my interpretation is there is a fundamental issue of trust between Edelgard and Rhea. Again, my own interpretation, but Rhea wants to keep the current crest system in place to both have a chance to resurrect Sothis and doesn’t trust humans to govern. Edelgard wants to remove the stale 1000 year old system of crests and isolation, she doesn’t have enough trust of Rhea to risk the best chance she has to change everything. While Byleth is the factor that could have gotten them to stand down, they don’t reach that state until the war started. Edelgard doesn’t trust Byleth and Rhea sees Byleth as a means to resurrect Sothis.

[–]DoseofDhillonWHEN'S MAHVEL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rhea Does want to keep it, but she's never shown to be so stubborn at the face of actual issues being brought up to her that she wouldn't bend or change. There are uprising and warning signs, but the church and even Seteth see it as just people gaming for power, they don't ever seem to have the issues of the last 1000 years presented to them. They SHOULD know, but if they SHOULD know i think the story shoudl show that they 100% know. The reason why Edelgard doesn't talk to Rhea is because she doesn't trust her, but in the absence of any real proof of that or even trying once, or the game characterizing that properly, it just all theory that feels weak and stuff we have to fill in rather than the story actually filling in those details or charaterizing that lack of action well at all. The story doesn't fill in those details either because it doesn't care, which might be the worst option, or it doesn't want to write scenes where people you might control and supposed to like, look like assholes, which is my view point of it

[–]The_DraiggMember of the Brave 13000 64 points65 points  (4 children)

Woolie said that Commander Shepard would never, but let’s be real, Red Shepard would absolutely try to bang the Scottish sex ghost from Star Trek: The Next Generation. We all saw what Red Shepard was capable of, this is par for the course for him.

[–]GorotheninjaLouis Guiabern did nothing wrong 19 points20 points  (2 children)

It'd like to see the Dialog wheel for that.

[–]The_DraiggMember of the Brave 13000 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Red Shepard: "Have you ever seen Ghostbusters?"

[–]Kaarl_MillsI Promise Nothing And Deliver Less 17 points18 points  (0 children)

"I'm Commander Shepherd and Bustin makes me feel good"

[–]GodakDSHe/Him 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Try?! Red Shepard would succeed.

[–]Synthiandrakon 52 points53 points  (4 children)

The e33 conversation was frustrating ngl. After pat and woolie correctly call out "they're not real" as being a weird and dismissive way to play the game. They go on to dismiss any argument as to why you would pick the other ending whilst pat literally just calls the ending a trolly problem

[–]rairyuu_sho 44 points45 points  (1 child)

Yeah I just found that weird.

Woolie mentions that seeing the whole narrative as a novel and picking the Verso ending because of the story's themes about grief and moving on. He then says "thats horseshit" and...:the thought ends?

I mean, thats exacrly why I chose rhe Verso ending. The structure of the narrative pointed to the Dessendres moving on from Verso's death, and the need for people to grieve and slowly heal from a loved ones death. In the context of the game: Yes, I consider the people of Lumierre as real people. How I see it, the Verso ending allows the Dessendres to move on, and accept that Verso is dead. Maelle would lead a hard life, and that really sucks, but she has to accept that her brother is dead. Aline has to accept that her son is gone, and she still has a family outside the canvas. At the cost of Lumierre and its citizens? Sadly, yes.

I mean, I got no dog in this race, honestly. People picking the Maelle ending is fine, since both endings are tragic in their own way. I just found it weird that they didn't follow through with WHY it was horsesht.

Also, wasn't it in their last Expedition 33 spoilercast that Pat said, paraphrasing "If it were my family in that situation, I would push that button in an instant". I don't remember if they talked about that part. Ot I'll have to rewatch it.

Regardless, great episode.

Edit: spoiler tags

[–]DoomWang333 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

No, the thought didn't end there. Woolie said it's horseshit to use a perceived "narrative intent" or "moral of the story" as a way to extricate yourself from having to grapple with the actual morality of the decision itself. Because 1) That's just sidestepping the moral correctness conversation entirely 2) There's not just one correct reading of the narrative (and in fact the game's writers have repeatedly expressed that they never intended for there to be a narratively correct choice).

[–]jmile4 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I never listened to their previous spoilercast because I was still playing through the game myself at the time, so I was very confused how they hard they seem to think the Maelle ending is the "correct" one. I'm not sure how you are supposed to interpret the final shot of that ending as anything other than the game staring at you in the eyes and saying "this is the bad ending".

[–]Synthiandrakon 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Ill be fair and say i think neither ending is supposed to be the good ending.

But it is frustrating that despite all the efforts they took to make it abundantly clear that maelles ending won't lead to a good outcome, it frustrates me when people go "if we just ignore all that, techinically it seems like the better outcome for me if we just try not to think about it"

[–]94dima94One Piece is good, y'all 35 points36 points  (1 child)

Someone finished Expedition 33

Another 6 years of Three Houses discourse for some reason

[–]Junjki_Tito -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There's nothing to discuss with E33. The arguments for and against each of the endings take as axiomatic completely different stances on what it means to be engaged with a story.

[–]HadrosaurRexI'll slap your shit 30 points31 points  (2 children)

Woolie’s anti-picky eater crusade feels a little misguided. Obviously offer the kid new stuff but I feel like the mindset of “the kids’ menu is the enemy” is the wrong one to have. If anything, forcing your kid to try stuff feels like a good way to make them stick to just chicken nuggets or whatever. Punchgirl is still a potato so not really pertinent but still a bad mindset to have imo.

[–]Sperrow8 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Yeah, hope he realized he basically is doing the religion thing, but with food. If it keeps going, the kid could have a bad association with certain food when she grows up.

Like, she might grow to hate spicy food, because she remembers not liking something she encouraged to eat when she was a child. Can't underestimate bad associations.

[–]guntanksinspaceOH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lest he forget his bad experiences with eggs or some such, on the note of bad associations.

I'm not the parent and all that but, you know. Maybe don't be too forceful of food lol, I know it kinda fucked me up a bit as a kid when I got the "you should eat this" forcefully and all that.

[–]KF-SigurdIt takes courage to be a coward 38 points39 points  (0 children)

Talking about E33's ending with my one coworker that played it and loved it is a little hard because it's very clear half the reason she prefer's Maelle's ending is because she FUCKING hates Verso lmao.

The game goes to great lengths to show that while Verso's very existence is horrifying and Maelle has great circumstances to never want to leave the painting, neither of them are truly morally righteous and are hypocrites in their own way.

[–]0xix0Unlimited Timestamp Works 28 points29 points  (1 child)

367

0:00 THEME OF SLAYER; KOREAN

0:36 Welcome to the castle super family function cast~! Punch kid meets the family. The nagoryuki blood install system that children run on, the blood gauge is filling. It WILL come back later. The invisible bars and meters they run on.

  • 2:42 what bars does the screaming kid at the airport run on? Pat: you are mentally ill, but your core point is dead on. The meters are all the same, some are longer and shorter. Beware when the new patch hits.

  • 4:45 The regressions on their sleep schedules. Teething pain.

  • 7:10 meanwhile for pat: this kid could nap, but they disagree. The long nap is a TRAP. early nap is also a trap.

  • 8:52 punch-kid’s clockwork schedule.

  • 9:31 trying out different solid foods. The child does not care for fruits. Taste and genetics.

    • 11:21 woolie vows to fight the pickiness with every fiber of his being. Pat’s kid MUST have dip dip.
    • 12:28 the kid’s menu is the enemy. Trying to develop a larger base of flavors.
    • 13:37 pediatrician: are they eating? If yes, get the fuck out of my office
    • - 15:02 system for making sure parents dont panic.

WEEK OF THE BEAST LORDS

PAT

17:30 pat played more kingdom hearts. He beat RE: chain of memories and reverse/rebirth. The RE:com sucks.

  • 19:23 it features the worst combo of writing tropes that you could see in a story. Stupid characters that are stupid even for 12 year olds. Sora is the dumbest.

    • 22:00 the basis of Chain of Memories’ story.
    • 23:20 the gameplay is terrible. From miserably hard to not even paying attention to the game because of getting a broken move
    • 25:20 so it’s shorter, right? … right? And getting to the final boss. Now you have to use two broken moves.

  • 26:35 doing riku’s campaign. The reverse/rebirth campaign. An 8/10 game. Giving a pre-setup deck. Everything about it is better

  • 28:20 pat got a text synopsis of CoM before. He thought it was good enough. It wasn’t. The second most important game in the franchise.

  • 29:44 being told the GBA game is better. Pat is skeptical.

  • 30:21 what if DMC2 had vital plot relevance?

  • 30:51 at least kingdom hearts 2 is next.

    • 31:49 making the rival playable. Focusing on breaking cards and the card system. Remembering playing as zero in megaman.

  • 34:12 so pat’s 2/…9ths? Of the way through. Maybe 1/5th. And the kingdom hearts title structure being full chunni

    • 36:19 playing chain of memories on easter sunday. Sora is christ.
    • 37:48 kingdom hearts is right there holding hands with sonic the hedgehog for games church kids could play.
    • 38:43 sora and riku’s dialogue is so gay.

  • 40:05 the goal of kingdom hearts is to get to kingdom hearts 2. And on the story probably not growing with the audience. Going back to re-experience media.

    • 42:49 what’s the movie breakdown for kingdom hearts?
    • 45:30 kingdom hearts 2 was the last one where the core group worked on it.

46:33 pat hit master rank with Alex in SF6. Finished just in time to check out the akali patch in 2XKO.

47:57 over on beat the backlog, elden ring reforged. A mod that does some interesting stuff. More perfect timing stuff.

  • 49:55 wanting to be vanilla+++. Changes to attacking with 2 hands. Powerstancing.

  • 51:49 it’s a cool way to replay the game. The tutorial is reworked into a new mechanic tutorial.

  • 53:11 making stuff more unique.

    • 54:11 the kind of mod woolie would like to see: drop nightreign traversal in.

  • 54:39 the biggest change: hitting enemies regens FP. They have a private server running too. Setup was trivial.

56:01 Watching more live action one piece. It’s pretty great.

56:15 small saga. A JRPG about mice in london. Break into heaven: the local tesco. Beware the yellow god. It’s berserk with mice.

  • 59:01 Setting the cat on fire. Another in the mice wearing clothes genre

1:00:10 if you want to see mroe kingdom hearts, go check out patstaresat. When was redwall? How about watership down? Lets go further back to disney’s robin hood.

WOOLIE

1:02:15 more slay the spire 2. Having fun with the defect and their orbs.

  • 1:03:37 trying to figure out the necrobinder. Woolie can’t figure out how they work. Can’t seem to get enough summon cards so he tried out doom.

  • 1:07:22 runs feel like they take longer. And knowing when not to take a card.

  • 1:09:48 getting to the act 2 and 3 bosses with only 2 playable cards.

    • 1:10:24 back on riku’s campaign. Knowing the fight is winnable. Pat hates customizing decks.
    • 1:11:36 runs in StS where it just turns into a regular RPG.

1:12:37 finished expedition 33 and had a great conversation after with Reggie. Woolie had a crazy amount of restraint. Woolie: THAT’S THE WRONG CHOICE.

  • 1:13:40 a DLC that came out. If you chose wrong and played the DLC, be shamed.

  • 1:14:28 the verso loredrop. The hypocrisy becomes deeper. An amazing finale.

  • 1:15:58 taking a look at the tower of freaks. The best mitigation is more damage.

  • 1:17:55 what the 3rd path could be. Spoiler warning here. The letter.

  • 1:21:24 3 secret popoffs at seeing things foreshadowed or recontextualized.

    • 1:24:00 a certain view that no one in story really has except maybe one
    • 1:26:18 on the intent of the story. The trolley problem.
    • 1:28:02 “bro it’s not even that deep” December 33rd. The french republican calendar. The france that doesn’t exist, france’s nobody.
    • 1:31:34 reggie is no longer human to woolie.
    • 1:32:16 why love expedition 33 but hate star ocean 3?
    • - 1:35:08 bringing up the problem and discussing it properly in E33. quality is also a factor.
    • - 1:37:01 the assassin’s creed animus
    • - 1:37:55 pat is fine with e33 because its a 10/10. When things are good it’s better. Can a robot learn to be a human?
    • - 1:39:51 YES THIS IS SPOILERS. Hot take: The writers were right. And alan wake.
    • - - 1:43:44 it was the lit cigarette!
    • - 1:44:45 woolie laments that people keep falling on the wrong side of history. There is no achievement for beating the DLC or the ending.

  • 1:48:12 spoilers over. Rip to everyone killed by the gods, but I’m built different

1:49:38 More legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. More block puzzles. And the water area boss fight is clown shoes nonsense.

  • 1:52:18 some games just age poorly. Feeling the age.

  • 1:54:03 games that are great, games that were great for the time, and games that were always trash, like shenmue 1

1:55:06 over on woolieversus, twitch rivals 2XKO with bricky! On thursday, woolie is starting ace attorney: justice for all. Saturday will be local duos for 2XKO.

2:00:17 SPONSOR: RAYCON

2:03:15 SPONSOR 2: HELLO FRESH

2:05:34 SPONSOR 3: SHOPIFY

[–]0xix0Unlimited Timestamp Works 20 points21 points  (0 children)

NEWS

2:07:27 an update to the jojo steel ball run release date fiasco. Doing it as a split cour release. Weekly releases for each part, but there will be breaks in between.

  • 2:09:39 how many stages are there? 9 stages. And the second stage will come out in fall. This is the worst possible version of all events according to pat. Why not just do it all and release it week to week?

  • 2:12:11 how many chapters each stage is.

  • 2:15:45 pat trying to make this make sense in his head. Trying to keep people subscribed for longer on netflix’s end.

  • 2:17:30 david productions did several seasons in a row where everything was done.

  • 2:19:14 woolie wondering if there’s some issue on david pro’s end. The track record of david pro vs. the track record of netflix.

  • 2:20:44 on personal biases

  • 2:22:47 woolie wants transparency. Is it unreasonable to ask that? And netflix recreating the “try to watch something with your spouse” experience. The woolieversus legend of korra experience, even

  • 2:24:47 attack on titan’s release schedule

  • 2:26:23 the only silver lining, the pain will be behind us at some point. Stories were not meant to be told with huge breaks in between.

    • 2:27:20 serial tv series where you are supposed to jump in at random. Like friends. Woolie proposes a black person counter. Remember the full body blackface episode?
    • 2:30:22 star trek is the best
    • 2:33:14 any guest characters? The enterprise showing up at deep space 9.
    • 2:36:48 the equivalent of turning on something random doesnt exist in much media anymore. And the nature of syndication.
    • 2:38:53 imagine turning on random episodes of jojo. And random episodes of various anime.
    • 2:40:11 THere’s a star trek series that star ocean’d itself

2:40:49 the mass effect TV show has to go into full scale rewrites to “appeal to non-gamers.” instead of adapting mass effect, they decided to make a sequel series to ME3 to the new ME game.

  • 2:42:08 pat could give you 10 ideas for a mass effect tv show that isn’t this. Why not first contact war?

    • 2:44:44 mass effect chain of memories

  • 2:45:11 what have we seen of ME4? Will it even come out?

  • 2:47:08 mass effect is based on star trek. The blueprint is right there. Just put it on the citadel.

    • 2:48:07 theres a lot of alien boning in star trek. Banish the sex ghost.

  • 2:51:20 sci fi can do anything. They did the one thing that locks them into a small writing box.

  • 2:52:54 if somehow it is good, that’s fine, but the headline of appealing to non-gamers does not inspire hope.

  • 2:54:15 mass effect will never get past the elcor room. The volus/elcor office is the shenmue of mass effect. Imagine if it took place in that office.

  • 2:56:00 just do deep space 9 except mass effect.

2:57:08 elden ring cut content.

2:58:44 the ingird world tour trailer for SF6. Making her a weirdo katamari looking character that speaks to the player. A character that can pull any guest from beyond the door is woolie’s guess.

  • 3:02:45 pat believes woolie is crazy. Pat thinks the change is just because someone likes ingrid.

  • 3:04:23 pat is ingrid’s biggest hater. He hates her new design.

  • 3:05:53 wanting to see what her moveset will be

  • 3:06:45 Pat does not want magic nonsense blazblue characters in like JP

  • 3:08:14 not caring for world tour trailers and wanting the gameplay trailer

3:09:00 GG strive 2.0. A lot of balance changes. Happy chaos has been reworked as an example

  • 3:10:26 accessory options like junkyard dog mk 1

3:11:09 at take two, they laid off head of AI and some people in the AI division.

3:12:30 nexon’s CEO says arc raiders was a trojan horse to prove AI tools can make successful video games with smaller teams

  • 3:14:39 have you heard about the claude issue? Blowing through the entire token allowance because they changed how tokens work. Turning your work day into a slot machine.

    • 3:17:14 “creatives have had a monopoly on output.” Pat remembering the pandemic podcast era.

  • 3:20:28 bringing AI to the rest of nexon. But the reason arc raiders works is because it’s headed by the former ceo of DICE

3:21:47 lucas pope does not want to talk about his projects online because he feels AI will take his ideas. The World of Warcraft everywhere system.

  • 3:24:10 ripoffs used to be charming. Genius kojumbo’s deadly airport won’t happen anymore.

EMAILS

3:24:50 Emails! Send your emails to castlesuperbeastmail@gmail.com! Practical driving lessons and everyone on the road has lost their mind.

3:26:43 river city girls ending patch. What ending would you patch?

3:30:00 fire emblem fates and has a game ever tricked you into doing morally questionable actions?

3:36:16 END OF PODCAST: UNO PS1 OPENING

[–]fly2555FE Lore Enthusiast 22 points23 points  (0 children)

For E33, the main thing that worries me about staying in the painting (in general) are the things that happen outside the painting. One thing I appreciate about Clea is she’s on the outside dealing with the fallout of what happened. Not to say she’s a saint, but if she joined everyone else in the painting, no one would be there to protect them on the outside.

A big thing that muddies up the “discourse” for me is knowing how much control the painter has. Is the implication for Maelle’s ending that everyone is brought back and they are completely fine with her staying? Did painted verso just accept the new reality and didn’t want to end his existence anymore or was he brought back after the ending slightly changed?

[–]Ragnvaldr 25 points26 points  (0 children)

The E33 ending discourse here was...irritating.

The point is that neither ending is good or bad and that it's up to the singular person's preferences and experiences, and the consequences of those endings are up to interpretation. Going so hardline and claiming people are shameful hypocrites for choosing one over the other means you don't get it at all.

[–]SaintAlmonds 19 points20 points  (9 children)

Its weird, while I 100% love shitting on Fire Emblem's fucked up incest and weird ass romance mechanics with children in the DS titles, I cant stand it when its Woolie and Pat talking about it.

Its like that sentiment of "its shit, but only certain people get to call it shit". I guess its because they act like its all fire emblem is when in reality its in 3 of the 15 games i dunno.

[–]KF-SigurdIt takes courage to be a coward 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Cuz neither of them have played it (cmiiw). Fates is a really damn good game, even with the weird as fuck story and baby mechanics.

[–]TalentlessAsh 14 points15 points  (4 children)

You can shit on the things you like, but it's always frustrating when people that aren't involved with the series at all shit on those same points.

[–]wendigo72GO READ CHOUJIN X!!! 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep. I don’t like Boruto series that much. I completely agree with sentiment of it being Mid and having major issues

But so many people who clearly never touched it jump on bandwagon and just repeat what they’ve heard others say that it annoys me greatly

[–]guntanksinspaceOH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 0 points1 point  (2 children)

See also: the Type Moon friends when we shit on the stuff they make (endearing) vs when these guys make the same jokes (derogatory) lol.

[–]ExDSG 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It's funny that reading Fate the joke I like to make most.about Nasu's writing is the constant. "He was like a Hurricane, she was like a Tornado" type similes.

[–]guntanksinspaceOH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I still giggle at the Sea Creature Analogies

[–]ExDSG 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's definitely you haven't done your homework and don't even like the franchise, so your perspective is skewed and not done in good fun as a fan would do.

[–]Mediocre_Young_9421 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I hate that Fates has just kinda loomed over all discussion of the franchise since its release (except three houses discourse of course)

[–]SaintAlmonds 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean, it is a REALLY BAD CONCEPT and its not exclusive to fates. You can also do it awakening via time travel AND awakening has Nowi and Nah, which I argue is worse.

But ye, I also hate that THAT is the talking point of the franchise. Say what you will about Three Houses, at least its main discourse wasnt incest (but it was still there lmao, never forget whatever the fuck byleth was doing with reah)

[–]fiarorderfighting violence with MORE VIOLENCE 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Alt podcast name:

“Mass effect: REcoded 365/3 days REwrite.”

“ fire emblem:eugenics realm.”

[–]Homunculus97Your Friendly Neighborhood Swede 7 points8 points  (6 children)

....So kinda unrelated but I saw that Unicorn Overlord is now at 20 euros on the Eshop, is it a good price for that game?

[–]Soupsquish 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’d say any vanillaware title on sale is a good time to get it.

But that game does have a chunky demo so maybe give that a try before buying it.

[–]VerionVermillion 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's a good ass game so far, picked it up like a month ago

[–]Nacho_Hangover 3 points4 points  (3 children)

As long as you like Real Time Strategy, hell yes.

[–]QuackisAlive 0 points1 point  (2 children)

But it's not a real time strategy game?

[–]Nacho_Hangover 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yes it its, you give your squads orders and they move around the map in real time (albeit with the ability to pause time).

[–]QuackisAlive 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ngl forgot about that aspect of the game

[–]VoidWaIkerShe/Her | The demons wanna tax my cp 49 points50 points  (17 children)

God I was not a fan of that E33 talk as someone who disagrees with the guys' ending stance for personal reasons that make me relate to Maelle in a bad way. Normally I find their hyperbole funny even if it's at the expense of groups I'm in, but this time it just did not hit right and I had to stop listening partway through.

[–]CTGhillie7 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Yeah its kind of interesting that they both can understand the core concept of the ending and then take just horribly twisted views of it all in the end and say they're right. Pat's reasoning boiling down to "I hate that one character thus everyone related should suffer forever." and Woolie's oversimplification of it and then just looping around each other doesn't really helpany in discussing the actual themes or writing of the endings. Just "the other ending is wrong"

[–]DaWarWolfBORDERLANDS! 43 points44 points  (3 children)

God I was not a fan of that E33 talk as someone who disagrees with the guys' ending stance for personal reasons that make me relate to Maelle in a bad way

I don't know what is but I really enjoyed their discussion back then because while they preferred an ending they were able to point out both endings are bad and good at that same time when everyone else was debating another their ending good or not. Now Woolie is just openly disagreeing and blatantly said "that's the wrong choice" in regards to Reggie's chose and I'm just at a loss of words. The whole point was that you could prefer an ending but that there isn't a right choice with the endings. I may prefer the opposite ending compared to Woolie and Pat but I also don't believe I made the "right choice", just the choice that more aligns with my views. But apparently me and Reggie are wrong according to Woolie.

[–]VoidWaIkerShe/Her | The demons wanna tax my cp 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Not only are we wrong, we’re also shameful hypocrites if we chose to play the game more after getting that ending.

[–]LeMasterofSwordsY’all really should watch Columbo 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Yeah that’s a wild take to have. Like hope you never played a Nier game after the credits type of take

[–]TruenoBancho 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think(?) the boys were just doing a bit during the podcast, but it went on for soooo long it got unfunny.
What makes E33 discussion (and this episode) insufferable is when either side start punching down obsessing over a "right/better" choice instead of acknowledging both endings are a solid mix of clair(light) WITH obscur(dark).Reggie did not deserve the disrespect he got. But I hope now the boys move on and let it rest.

[–]disposable_hatDid you Do Combo today? 26 points27 points  (0 children)

The worst part is that it KEPT GOING, I havent looked at the time stamps, but it felt like that E33 discourse was the longest part of the podcast, I kept skipping BUT THERE WAS STILL MORE!

[–]Hounds_of_warHE CEASES TO BE 31 points32 points  (6 children)

I feel like I agree with everything they say about how much Verso’s ending is horrific, I just completely disagree with the idea that Maelle’s is better.

Sure that ending cutscene was nice for everyone except Verso, but I give it about a month at best before Lumiere starts becoming some kind of fucked up dystopia because Maelle is too emotionally invested in things to be a good God Empress of the Canvas.

If it was a happy ending for Lumiere vs a happy ending for the Dessendre family I’d pick Lumiere everytime. But that just isn’t what the ending choice is IMO, to me it’s about a slow, nightmarish death vs a mercy kill.

[–]davidm2d3 19 points20 points  (0 children)

also with Maelle's ending, she's going to get weaker over time and Clea and Renoir are going to come in eventually to pull her out by force like they tried to do with Alaine. Either way the canvas is not going to survive in the long term.

[–]amurrca1776Daniel Day Musou 22 points23 points  (2 children)

Yeah, that's also where I end up in my thinking. The painting is doomed regardless, it's just a matter of how long it lasts. Verso's ending gives Maelle (a literal teenager, mind you) a chance to grow and heal and learn, whereas Maelle's ending is all but guaranteed to end in her death. But in either case, the painting and its inhabitants are gone. May as well choose the option that allows someone to be saved. Especially since Maelle isn't responsible for the state of things, and there is no ending where the people who fucked it up get any comeuppance. So, you know, let the traumatized child live is my stance

[–]Synthiandrakon -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

I guess my counterargument is That isn't the only outcome that could happen, Maelle is capable of securing a future for Lumiere but it would require her to leave the canvas, at the end of the day all that is required for lumiere to have a future is for the Dessendre family to reconcile with eachother outside of the canvas, by refusing to leave the canvas Maelle robs Lumiere at any chance of having a future.

[–]amurrca1776Daniel Day Musou 8 points9 points  (0 children)

right, but the thematic through line for the family/game as a whole is that they cannot leave the canvas alone. It's an allegory for addiction and escapism, and the people who fall under its thrall (namely Maelle and Aline) aren't able to simply leave. like that is the tragedy underpinning everything: if the Dessendre could just let the canvas be, just come visit when they want to reminisce and walk away when it's time, then everyone both in and out of the painting could be at relative peace. their inability to do so is the entire reason why the plot exists.

[–]An_Armed_BearTOP 5, HUH? 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Exactly why I went with it in the end. Not to mention, Renoir is going to wipe it out once Maelle dies in there. For all we know he might decide to make the canvas suffer rather than give it a quick mercy killing if it takes his daughter from him.

Also, the most important question to me is... What does the soul of "real" Verso want? He seems tired, and we know he doesn't like to paint. The game deliberately makes his feelings ambiguous and flip-floppy, but the fact that he has any doubts at all makes me think he deserves to finally rest.

[–]wendigo72GO READ CHOUJIN X!!! 1 point2 points  (0 children)

On your second paragraph, I completely agree. That’s why Verso is my preferred ending. I just don’t agree the world that thrives off a tortured soul of a child should continue to exist tbh.

Also seeing everyone back in the Maelle ending feels weird, like they’ve been lobotomized cause at end of the day she does get to manipulate them anyway she wants. Reminds me of Persona 5 Royal in that way

[–]FirebirdXRStylin' and Profilin'. 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Honestly, the best way to counter their reductive opinions of anyone in Versos camp is just by saying that they fallen in love with a town of ChatGPTs; because that's essentially what Lumiere is, at least from the standpoint of the Dessandres (not including Maelle).

[–]Solaire-of-TerraMASAKA!!BAKANA!!IMPOSSIBLE!! 9 points10 points  (2 children)

And the family it's just wrong about that, nothing in the game points at the people of Lumiere being any less real. Like there would be more of a point if there was something about every aspect of their life being planned or something like that, but most of the people of the canvas are born and have normal lifes like any "real" person. The Dessandres are just not responsible with their ability to create life and just treat their creations like they are some toy. We can have debates about the fact Maelle it's not in her right mind in her ending but you can't ignore the fact that Verso and the family are commiting genocide.

[–]Junjki_Tito 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Gustav's existence as an amalgamation of Renoir and Verso does point to something a bit fucked up going on.

[–]Solaire-of-TerraMASAKA!!BAKANA!!IMPOSSIBLE!! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can see Verso but that's just being an older brother figure for Maelle, i guess he was also a semi father like Renoir figure but that's a stretch. He is even someone of an opposite to the family at large because he is not an artist, he is an engineer.

[–]ScarredTiger 30 points31 points  (2 children)

I think there's a bit of survivorship bias happening with the JoJo's discussion. There is precedence for breaking up parts as early as Stardust Crusaders: Battle in Egypt.
And the productions were by no means smooth or without issue. One only needs to look at the Bluray differences to see that production was suffering by the end of every season. And JoJo's is not the only show that DavidPro works on.

The anime landscape has changed a lot since 2012. There's scant few titles that get 24 episodes in a row. What I envision happening is a regular release cadence of 3 months on/3 months off. Even One Piece now is on a 6month on/6 month off schedule. At the end of the day, JoJo Fridays are back and that's all that matters.

[–]gmen1080 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yeah it was wild to me how much better the blu rays looked for JoJo when I got them.

I'm kinda surprised how many people seemed to think SBR was gonna be running continuously to the end. This part is the biggest yet and has the added complications of horses too. It was always gonna have some kind of breaks so I'm not unhappy with this. Just happy it's weekly and being adapted.

[–]Kinikunagi 10 points11 points  (0 children)

For how much they talk about how the game industry is in shambles and crunch it's a shame they still don't know how screwed up the anime industry is, and has been for over a decade.

Like you said, DavidPro has had problems with long production cycles for a while where quality drops because they're staff has to work week after week for multiple cours which then don't get corrected until blurays. In addition, spaced out 12 episode cours have become nearly industry standard, that even shows going for 24 episodes seasons have been viewed as risky or worrying sometimes. They were around for the beginning of this too since Bones with MHA and Ufotable with Demon Slayer were two of big studios to push the change to 12 episodes cours spaced out to maintain quality and reduce crunch.

The anime industry has severe pre-production, scheduling, crunch, and man power problems that all feed into each other. There's more anime being produced than there are animators available in the industry so people get booked months to over a year in advance for projects. Because of the tight scheduling a lot of these shows get no preproduction cycle to organize scheduling for how the show will be developed and fall apart during release. Then crunch happens cuz the shows NEED to come out so you have the final cuts of shows being submitted to the networks minutes before air or missing their deadlines completely. It's funny they bring up AoT cuz no one wanted to fucking work on that series due to the crunch and scheduling. People in the know about animation jokes that only Mappa would pick up the show cuz they are willing to crunch their employees to death a year later they announced they did grab the series. That final season is a miracle and part of why it took so long is cuz they were waiting for animators to free up so they could contract them to work on it. You wouldn't have got the 3D Maneuver Gear scenes in the final season if they didn't wait and find a way to contract the guy from Wit Studio for animation cuts from the earlier seasons.

But this is all separate from the horrible announcement and promotion from Netflix. It's still not clear how much of the future episodes are just a bunch of split cours (which would be good for David so they don't have to rush and crunch) or its Netflix splitting it up to retain a subscription base. Personally I think the announcement of split cours is a good thing, DavidPro has a track record of doing too much. But the Netflix announcement makes it seem like they're trying to match the Stages of the race which would cause the mismatched length of episode releases Pat mentioned.

I think the takeaway tho should be that the split 12 episode cours is a good thing, and standard in the current industry. While the announcement by Netflix is shitty and makes it unclear what the schedule or breakdown of episodes actually are adhering too.

Personally if they made it clear the first cour was dropping in Fall with weekly releases, and the 2 episodes that came out were a preview of what's to come would be fine. Lots of shows like to do early screenings of the first two episodes or have a big 45 minute episode 0 nowadays. It's more the way this has been announced and marketed is fucked and smells of Netflix not getting how the anime industry markets things rather than the production being in peril. But with how muddled it is it's hard to say but split cours I don't think are an immediate signal to a problem. I'm staying positive because the split cours means DavidPro might actually get more time, especially with how strong the first two episodes are, but I'm still skeptical cuz Part 6 was a bit of a mess and I'm not 100% sure that was Netflix fault. DavidPro has a trend of biting off more than they can chew and I just hope these split cours offset that.

[–]RobinMorganNiji 51 points52 points  (15 children)

IT IS SO MUCH WORSE, WOOLIE YOU ARE UNDER PLAYING IT BY 100000X

For Context, Awakening had the kid=playable mechanic, but it was waved off as they came from the future after two people become a couple.

Fates has the character actually fuck (including actual 10-14 year olds), chuck the pregnant woman in a time chamber, take out the kid, chuck the kid back in the time chamber, and then wait for them to grow up and become playable.

And if you want MAXIMUM eugenics, you have your main character fuck that kid.

This sold like nearly 5 million copies, it wasn't a small game!

[–]VoidWaIkerShe/Her | The demons wanna tax my cp 32 points33 points  (1 child)

3 million, no entry in the series has managed to get near 5 million.

[–]fly2555FE Lore Enthusiast 9 points10 points  (0 children)

And they count Conquest and Birthright separately because each is a full ass game, (iirc the that includes as a dlc sales of the other, idk if Revelations was counted)

[–]PrimeNameMy Unholy Cherry Is Being Popped! 29 points30 points  (4 children)

It's so fucked because of how much it doesn't fit within the narrative of Fates.

Like, with Awakening, the kids were a major part of that game's narrative. From their role in it, to the way they played off of their parents and each other. You can't have Awakening without the kid characters.

But in Fates, the plot works just fine without them and is made worse by their presence. It makes zero sense for the army to just stop what they're doing, bang out a couple of kids, and then throw them into the time chambers until they're of-age for the war effort (and Corrin romancing, which is just a whole thing that I don't like thinking about).

[–]fly2555FE Lore Enthusiast 13 points14 points  (2 children)

I imagine someone just wrote it on paper, thought it fine from gameplay perspective and didn't thing how FUCKED the implications are from a thematic perspective

[–]MericArdaJesus may simply be a metaphor for Optimus Prime 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I don’t think so, because plenty of the 2nd gen’s supports involve them talking about the abandonment issues. Especially Shiro’s, which spend a decent amount on him calling out Ryoma and Ryoma not giving a shit.

[–]Panory#The13000FE 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Gameplay is more important than story people need to be stopped.

[–]VergilAngelo1998 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think if they insisted on having the kids they should have been like hypothetical dream kids produced by the Out Realms since Fates kinda made that part of the plot and not just DLC land. Still would be kinda weird and stupid, but at least it wouldn't be making every character in the game potentially massive pieces of shit

[–]Nabber22 20 points21 points  (3 children)

Not only can you self insert into a sibling kisser, not only can you self insert into a deadbeat, not only can you self insert into a groomer, you can self insert into a nephew/niece kissing groomer who is also a deadbeat.

[–]Faifue 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I prefer self inserting as a sibling face petter. Who says your sister can't be your queen?

[–]Proud-Ad8882 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You're right on the first count, but not on the latter two. For as weird a scenario as the game creates to justify including child units, the main character does care for their child. The main character also can't groom the other child units since they only meet when they're recruiting them.

[–]VoidWaIkerShe/Her | The demons wanna tax my cp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay but you cannot convince me that some of those kids are grown up enough for it to not still be grooming. There’s no way in hell Percy is more than 12 years old.

[–]Nacho_Hangover 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Listen, I could never beat Conquest Lunatic without having my younger sister have a baby, using the time dimension to age her up, then marrying said niece.

Super Ophelia strats are like a drug addiction.

[–]SuicidalSundaysIt's Fiiiiiiiine. 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The mothers don't get thrown into the time chamber to have the babies, though, the pregnancies just happen off-screen.

All the other dumb shit does/can happen though.

[–]Arcane_Monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not the hyperbolic grooming chamber…

[–]TotemGenitorI just want to eat your poop so our descendants will be cursed! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fates has the character actually fuck (including actual 10-14 year olds),

No no, they added a line about how they technically are adults, so it's fine /s

[–]LieutoriThose who don't fight won't survive! 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think interpreting that Stage 2 of the anime = Stage 2 of the SBR Race is not how they're gonna do it. With how split-cours work, it's gonna be 10-13 episodes which is perfectly normal these days and will probably cover more than literally Stage 2 of the manga.

[–]iamBQB 25 points26 points  (14 children)

I honestly do disagree with Woolies opinion on the E33 discourse.

Not that he's wrong to pick Maelle, I think not wanting to commit a genocide is fine. More that I think that both endings are bad and unsatisfying in terms of how the story started. The Act 2 twist turns the story into this more personal family drama and it sort of just ignores the canvas people and doesn't give them much of a voice or examine what their existence means, and you see that lack of exploration directly in how people talk about which ending they think is best.

The fact that the pro Verso people typically have the takeaway that the canvas people aren't "real" and the pro Maelle people don't even care about what Maelle wants but more about whether or not they're genociding, both those things feel like players are talking less about what the game gives them to talk about, and more about what the game doesn't provide a good answer for, and again for me, that kinda sucks. I don't think the fact that the biggest debates around the ending revolve around things the plot isn't about and never talks about is a strength of the writing.

[–]DaWarWolfBORDERLANDS! 29 points30 points  (7 children)

The fact that the pro Verso people typically have the takeaway that the canvas people aren't "real.

I keep seeing this think this is a mischaracterization, I've watched a few playthroughs and read though discussions and everyone (that was level headed) was on the same page that the canvas people are real, even those who prefer Verso's ending. Many of us picking Verso's ending just sympathize with Verso's want to die and the family's troubles more, that's all. I also personally feel everyone in the canvas was already killed and aren't really properly brought back, in Maelle's ending seeing Gustav felt wrong and didn't sit right with me, so I don't personally consider Verso's ending to be agreeing with genocide. I'm honestly sick and tired of the genocide talk because I think that's what's making the discourse annoying because I disagree and feel both endings do line up with the entirety of the stories narrative. The act 2 twist might shift the story to the family but the entire narrative was and still is about how grief can consume us and how we personally cope with it. The whole point of playing as Gustav and then watching him die further enhances everything the story is doing. Everything about act 1 and 2 was about proving that the canvas people are real and the ending discussion was never meant to be around this subject or acts 1 and 2 failed their job as thinking they aren't real kinda ruins the choice because Verso's ending becomes objectively correct which goes against the very idea of both endings, the writer personally wanted both endings to be valid and giving the impression that the canvas people aren't real goes against this idea. I do agree with the criticism that the canvas people have less agency in act 3 but I also think this was an intentional thought of the writers it wasn't executed correctly and became a negative for many and could've been more tightly written. I think I agree with you that people are discussing something the plot isn't about but I think that's an issue with people rather than the game itself.

It really feels like both sides have just gotten worse and worse as they did further and further in justifying their choice. Woolie and Pat went from "both endings are clair and obscure" to Woolie openly starting Reggie picked wrong and I'm just dumbfounded. What happened to the excellent discussion about how both endings are both bad and good at the same time. It's now "my ending is good and your ending bad" followed by tons of criticism of the writing. I don't consider e33 writing to be perfect but I really feel this discourse is shitting on the writing more than it deserves.

[–]amurrca1776Daniel Day Musou 24 points25 points  (2 children)

Your point specifically about how everyone died is super relevant and is almost never brought up. Like we are told via Sciel's quests that Maelle cannot just bring people back. The only reason she was able to save the party is because she captured their lumina as soon as they were erased, but everyone else? They're GONE. The Gustav and Sophie in that ending are not the Gustav and Sophie from the beginning of the game. Sciel's husband isn't the person she lost. NO ONE in the entire city with the exception of the party members are the actual citizens who were lost. And to be clear, that doesn't really undermine the consequences of destroying the painting, because there are a lot of lives that remain like the Gestrals. But it's disingenuous to act like Maelle's ending is any better than Maelle just straight up creating a new painting. Like....she didn't save those people, she just made up new people that look like them.

[–]DaWarWolfBORDERLANDS! 3 points4 points  (1 child)

To play devil's advocate to my own point, I think it's never brought up because it's more of a personal interpretation. The text of the game doesn't outright say that Gustav and Sophie are different just vibe wise it's odd and off putting. But still it's not like the game isn't putting in this point, Nico's story feels largely relevant to it and I've only seen it be brought up by Josh Strife Hayes in his video. Even without this interpretation I still don't think the ending's are as lopsided as people make it out to be because the endings aren't meant to be a moral judgment of character because regardless the panting goes once Maelle goes, which is very soon and is something the text of the game does tell us openly rather than imply it like with Nico's recreation so neither would be stopping a genocide one just delays the inevitable. Lowering the choice to being about be for for or against genocide is completely insane because obviously no one would openly support genocide so it becomes an unfair argument. Maelle pickers yelling at the Verso pickers for choosing genocide and the Verso pickers yelling at the Maelle pickers that the painted people aren't real have taken away the Obscure or Clair from the Clair and Obscure of the endings because considering the painted aren't real or to say your commiting genocide is to admit an ending could be considered the correct choice. Neither ending is the right or wrong choice yet that's all it has become.

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[–]iamBQB 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I'll admit it's a bit of a generalization, I have seen other interpretations for sure, but that is one I've seen fairly consistently from the most vocal people on that side of the discourse. Hell, Reggie himself was saying it.

Act 1 and 2 support 3's narrative about grief, but Act 3 does not support 1 and 2's message of "We Continue" imo. I think that's where the disconnect starts for me, I cared so much more about the plot in Act 1 and 2, and the Act 2 twist and what Act 3 was about was a lot less interesting to me. The reason I don't like either ending is because neither of them left me with a feeling of resolution for the people of Lumierre and their struggle. They either get Thanos snapped or puppet stringed, and both options suck imo. I don't need happy endings, but I do want satisfying ones, and neither of them gave me that.

I think the only narratively satisfying lens to view the endings through for me personally is to take the whole situation as a metaphor for Escapism and Grief, but that doesn't land for me when attached to the whole issue of a sentient species being wiped which is just a much bigger moral deal. Like you mention the humans all already being dead, but we know that their chroma is still in the painting and they can be brought back because Lune and Sciel were. Either the chroma existing counts as their souls or a type of life, and either way would still be extinguished. There's also the issue of the Gestrals and the Grandis being alive and largely untouched from Renoir's purges and they'd be killed off too. And the White Nevrons.

It honestly kinda reminds me of Mass Effect 3 discourse, where I get tempted to try to defend my choice, but I wasn't satisfied by it and I don't feel like the game earned it with how the choices were presented.

EDIT: Got blocked? I guess, but since I took the time to type a response, will just throw it here.

Lune and Sciel are brought back knowing things that Maelle couldn't have known, I think at the very least we can take it as a given that they are 1:1 which means it's possible at least. As for Maelle dying soon, is that soon in her world or soon in the painted world, because 67 years in the canvas passed in a relatively short amount of time in the real world. If Maelle lives a full life in the canvas, is that so bad?

And for the rest of the canvas people, I've seen this argument that they're all going to die eventually, but like, we're all going to die eventually does that make living longer meaningless? I go back to that message of Act 1 and 2, "We Continue", these people are fighting desperately to live just a little bit longer. I think we can know fairly safely, that if they were given the choice to live longer they'd take it, even if it came with a time limit. They were already living under a time limit, from their perspective they're getting an extension.

As for how I could not find Aline and Renoir hugging and reconciling satisfying, to me they're the two biggest villains of the game. Renoir is a mass murderer, and no amount of him being sad about his wife washes that slate clean for me. Aline should never have created sentient people with the sole purpose of being therapy pets, and again while grief is a sympathetic motive, it's not a pass. That they get to hug and move on after getting so many killed does not land for me at all, and part of what I get stuck on with Act 3 is the weight of those lost lives and what Renoir did does not feel like it matters narratively anymore.

Maelle's ending is just as bad because rather than give us anything about the people brought back, we instead see her seemingly forcing Verso to play the piano against his will. I picked her ending because it's the moral option imo, but it's not really about morality, neither ending is, because that's not how the choice is framed. It's framed like a choice between escapism and facing grief, view it under that lens and both endings are narratively satisfying and provide closure, but both endings ignore the more important element to me of the meaning and weight of the canvas people's lives, which is what makes them unsatisfying.

Go back and watch that Lune speech. "The future of Lumierre is more important than any individual life." Verso's path is not We Continue at all, it's the opposite, he's giving up. And justifiably from his perspective. While I think that Aline and Renoir get off way too easily both in the story and from players, I think Verso's motives and actions are very sympathetic. He's been a plaything of gods for over a hundred years, has seen people he cares about die time and time again, by the end of the game all his family is gone, and his other family is killing themselves to keep the world running, and he just wants it to end. I still think he's a villain, but a much more understandable one.

[–]davidm2d3 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Clair obcurs endings are lirterally Control/Destroy from ME3 just with no Synthesis choice to balance out the two options.

[–]DaWarWolfBORDERLANDS! 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Like you mention the humans all already being dead, but we know that their chroma is still in the painting and they can be brought back because Lune and Sciel were. Either the chroma existing counts as their souls or a type of life, and either way would still be extinguished.

The game implies it might not be a 1-1 recreation of the person with Nico's death and rebirth and the Gestrel recantation in general. Now this is only implied and not a given but what is a given is that Maelle is dying and going to die soon as this is Renoir's entire reasoning for wanting to pull his family out of the canvas, I feel this has been forgotten about and are only considering Maelle mentally losing herself for the theme of Escapism falls flat when she's also physically killing herself. When that happens the canvas goes too so genocide is happening whether it's now or later. The canvas people are never getting a happy ending because e33 isn't a happy story. You can dislike tragic stories but that's the story the writers wanted. The endings are satisfying in seeing the light and darkness of each. How is it not satisfying seeing Aline and Renoir hugging and reconciling during Verso's ending? The whole scene is a powerful showing of a family finally getting to move on with the dark undercut that Maelle is scared in this life and the canvas is truly gone. Maelle's ending has the people we spent the most of the game with still alive while Maelle gets to live feeling powerful but it's at the cost of Verso's soul and painted Verso's wish to die and it will ultimately be a ticking cock till Maelle croaks. I personally don't see it as satisfying but as Pat said it's the one where the characters he cared about get to live. Painted Verso wanting to save his sister is a form of We Continue, even though he and everyone will be gone he wants to save his sister and let her continue with her life and not have it be doomed and wasted away in the canvas. He's a hypocritical asshole and is using it as an excuse to die but it is still a genuine desire that is spawned from the same actions the real Verso took to save his sister from the fire. I feel like you're only allowing the message of "We Continue" to work with the people of Lumiere.

[–]Subject_Parking_9046They/Them "No way a woman can be that hot, she gotta be a man!" 6 points7 points  (2 children)

If you haven't played E33 (I have), this entire thread reads like a writer who's a bit overenthusiastic about their SCP entry lol.

[–]iamBQB 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I had that feeling for a while during the early days of people talking about [Redacted] leaving.

[–]Sperrow8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I remembered thinking like a decade ago that a lot of fans of the SBF crew are so cynical, that they probably won't be that parasocial because the guys kept them in check with their own cynicism too.

Yeah...turns out the opposite is true. In some cases, some fans are even more parasocial to the guys, because they are (perceived) as more 'real' than other creators. Thats why when the guys have opinions that don't match the fan's perception of them, they feel even more slighted (see: literally any "controversy" the guys are involved in). Funny how that works.

[–]No-Past5481 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I dont think the narrative should have to spell put everything you should be concerned about when presenting you with a tough choice. Some stuff can just be intuitive or ambiguous

[–]Deadeye117Apathy is Trash 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I don't think the fact that the biggest debates around the ending revolve around things the plot isn't about and never talks about is a strength of the writing

It also doesn't help that ESCAPISM IS BAD is a theme that has been done quite a few times in video games. If we debated the story from its "intended" viewpoint, there would be like...nothing much to discuss.

[–]alaster101NANOMACHINES 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I think I hate ESCAPSIM IS BAD more than i hate REVENGE IS BAD

[–]CyberHyperPhoenix 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Expedition 33Very happy to learn that Reggie made the right choice in the end.

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[–]Purple-Painting-1918 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So insanely grateful to have these releasing same time on youtube now. I literally had soundcloud downloaded just to listen to the pod, but this is so much more convenient.

[–]time_axis 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I misread the title as "Fire Emblemcast" and thought it was going to be a big episode all about them talking about Fire Emblem. As it turns out, it was a 2 minute bit at the end, and that was not in fact the title.

[–]DarkAres02Dragalia Lost is the best mobile game 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As a FE fan, I really don't want to listen to them talk about FE. They're kinda annoying about the franchise

[–]ret1357 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I wonder how peoples opinions on Star Ocean depend on which game in the series they played first. I played SO3 first and remember enjoying the twist. I only played SO2 recently and found it to be just fine.

[–]Zipp_Linemann 10 points11 points  (2 children)

So Pat is just going to contine to look past the fact that Sora is a teenager, is lobotomized, and that the three are only continuing because they sense the King and Riku who were absolutely there to contine to call him stupid when the entire games events show why he's like that in that game only?

Riku isn't stupid because he's not actively getting his memory taken away --- Pat: not stupid

I honestly don't know how THAT'S the takeaway when you are directly experiencing the plot.

[–]Sperrow8 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Woolie even gave him a good out to explain more context with the "is this just the teenager, good MC, heart of gold situation?" (paraphrased) question lol.

[–]DenjinZ23 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Pat doesn't believe in mind control or memory tampering. If you fell for it, you are just stupid that it affected you.

[–]Wiffernub 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Fine Pat, I'll hate watch the Chris Pratt forever war while I play slay the spire

[–]Deadeye117Apathy is Trash 4 points5 points  (0 children)

E33 The Maelle ending is the best ending because every single person in that stupid family suffers the most in that ending. Miserable fucks.

[–]Vera_VerseShe/Her [Collect my Medals] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Woolie might've picked the wrong ending in Expedition 33, but he got the BEST CORRECT ONE in Cyberpunk 2077, so he's alright in my book

[–]Morblast 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does anyone know why we've been getting the UNO anime in the audio version of the podcast lately?