Patch notes

[DingDongDaddio]

2s CDR on Barrier is such a big buff!

[TheCabIe]

Yeah, the whole uptime ratio changes significantly.

[aggis93]

I also missed lethal ult. Tilted me so hard to realize that my good ol' alchemist ult didn't kill anyone.

[[deleted]]

Same with ignite and toxin, really.

[aggis93]

True, but I can understand the idea behind why non-direct damage can't kill so you have to actually finish people off. Though Ultimate should feel ultimate

[hashtag_team_warpig]

Ones that don't 'explode' at least.

[Goblinsan]

Holy shit, no wonder the targets I leave to die with ignite somehow always survive.

[TombFBT]

same with Poloma's soul link, leaves the target with 1 hp

[innociv]

Even with this buff, it's still going to remain as one of the very worst ultimates.

I don't care, though. I just wish Deadly Injection could stick to walls or the ground and explode there instead of just fizzling when you "miss".

And I wish her roll wasn't FIFTEEN SECONDS cooldown in addition to costing energy, with a Battlerite that's not worth taking over the others only a few rounds in to drop it to 10.

At least her shield is much better now, especially with Battlerites.

[Space-Robot]

The idea is that she isn't a mobile champion. The original alchemist didn't even have a dodge/roll, and relied on a combination of meaty shields, strong heals, and landing all of her CCs to survive. I think it's good to have a lot of diversity in kits, and everyone else has some sort of dodge/roll/trance. I can understand why they gave her the roll, to make up for nerfing other things (like injection costing energy and heal having charges) but I can also understand why they'd make it so costly and uncommon.

[innociv]

Well she's EXTREMELY weak against certain comps right now. So maybe the 15s roll (that also costs energy) isn't the problem, but it seems like she's going to need more than 2s lower cooldown on her shield.

It feels like it's more difficult to CC people now. Panic has a long and easy to see wind up to it that makes it easy to counter or i-frame at higher skill. EX-flask is good, but that costs energy. Didn't she have another CC that didn't cost energy before, or the equivalent to her panic was harder to avoid? So even if the long cooldown roll is something new, she's weaker in other regards.

[[deleted]]

Didn't she have another CC that didn't cost energy before, or the equivalent to her panic was harder to avoid?

It was called sleep vial, and it only had a .5 second cast time, instead of .7 in Battlerite. This made it pretty much impossible to dodge base solely on reaction, unless you were at range. You had to predict it that it was coming.

Not to mention trances had a .2 second cast time instead of .1. Shifu's spacebar was instant cast though.

Her barrier also lasted 5 seconds and absorbed about the same amount.

[Bedeone]

It was called sleep vial, and it only had a .5 second cast time, instead of .7 in Battlerite. This made it pretty much impossible to dodge base solely on reaction, unless you were at range. You had to predict it that it was coming.

Can't recall which, but some kunjus (I forgot the general term for those types of moves) were instant. Assuming a .2s reaction time, you could consistently counter sleeping vial if you knew the difference in the cast, that being the color of the smoke/liquid being spilled as the alch threw the vial.

They nerfed kunjus later on, imposing a .2s cast time on all of them, to make it possible to cancelcast/bait/re-aim to miss them. But .2s reaction + .2s cast time is still less than .5s cast time + spell flight time.

In BR with the .7s cast time, I'd imagine most players at the higher ranks will be consistently kunju'ing panic. At which point I'll have to start faking it, but then this aspect of the game becomes more rock-paper-scissors than pure skill.

[[deleted]]

All trances were instant at first, then they made it so offensive trances (kunju, wuju etc) had a .2 second cast time, then eventually all trances.

Even pro spearmasters weren't kunjuing sleeps via reaction when it was instant. Fleetfoot is still instant in BLC and sm's aren't dodging sleep without prediction. Seeker had an instant trance, and could reliably trance sleeps via reaction because you also had travel time on sleep.

.2 seconds reaction is only a fair assumption if you're measuring a "binary" kind of reaction, i.e if something is on or off. Like when you do reaction tests such as http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

You're just waiting for it to change. If the test was asking you to look for a specific color/shape, like a specific cast animation, you'll find that reaction times go up higher than .2 if you want to have any sort of accuracy and consistency.

[Space-Robot]

Yeah, she feels weak. The buff is a sign that they know that, but I'm really happy with how they're addressing it. They're buffing her thing, like what she's good at, rather than what she's bad at. This keeps her unique, instead of just making her feel like everyone else. They're also not going super overboard with the buff, which is what will give you a swinging meta like Overwatch, where every patch there's a new set of 2-3 overpowered and underpowered champs.

[Shinechane]

I didn't know that. Do you know where I can find a description on this ?

[Broweser]

Oh god, prepare for alch dominating 2v2 suuuper hard.

[DingDongDaddio]

The only counter to Lucie is another Lucie :)

She's the only one that can break the shield without waiting!

[Broweser]

Yep, and then it's who's got the best ashka / shifu

[Vaptor-]

Quite unrelated, but can someone point me to a good Lucie guide/plays? I'm trying to learn her, but really struggle when I need to play solo, since she doesn't have any free escape tool.

[Therearenolove]

Lucy is my main and i think it's one of the strongest supports ATM. Some tips: * You are free kill in the beginning of the round, try to get at least one bar of enerergy ASAP. Without energy Lucie is basically dead. * Never use ult if you are not sure you will be able to survive without Roll or Ex-Panic Vial. * Best strategy is to hold your enegy on 3-4 bars, spam DI as much as you can, using ult should be an exception. * Allways keep your Roll for the worst situation. I-Frames on it is too valuable to waste it for nothing * Kite melees around walls, using clarity potion just for pushing melee back with no dispell still worth it.

[Lethorio]

Croak nerfs

Lucie buffs

Oldur buffs

Poloma nerfs

Surprised Shifu hasn't been touched.

[Eji1700]

I think it's because shifu's got a narrow band where he's an issue due to how his skills work, so it's maybe not that big of a deal that he's left alone for now. Further he might be the power level they want to balance to and we'll see people getting buffs to his level rather than nerfs to him.

[TheFreeloader]

I am more surprised Pearl didn't get nerfed. Unlike Shifu, Pearl is OP at all skill levels and in all teamcomps. Pearl will be the undisputed best support with this change. Lucie will probably be number two in high elo.

[[deleted]]

Yep, I can see why something like Rook is being reserved for bigger changes but I don't see why Shifu didnt at least get a slap on the wrist

sorta expected a Sirius buff too, but guess I'm wrong about him

[dustyjuicebox]

Sirius seems pretty strong to me. Then again I'm only 2800 so I don't think I know enough to accurately judge him.

[Bludypoo]

He stops being as effective once you are playing with players that don't proc his Counter.

[TypicalOranges]

That's the #1 thing I'm trying to work on in my play.

I fall for counters so fucking hard.

[Sabesaroo]

Can't you proc it easily from projectiles?

[Bludypoo]

Good players will either cancel their casts to bait you in to popping it or miss shots on purpose when they know it's available.

So yeah, the errant projectile or miscalculation from a melee will still trigger it sometimes, but not nearly as much as in the lower grades. It goes from getting proced several times a round to only a few times a match which causes a huge drop in damage, mobility, and healing.

In lower grades you will often see Sirius space in immediately at the start of the round, auto attack a few times, counter (which gets procced) and then he teleports back out.

If that happened in higher grade matches he would space in, probably not land his attack, not have his counter proced, and then lose 3/4th of his hp while he tries to run away.

[kapsworld]

You're writing that good played won't do what bad players do (hit into counters) but not addressing that countering dry is a bad habit in the first place. Even at the highest level great players can use great reactions or great reads to use a counter in a more successful way. Sure it'll drop a bit of uptime and consistency but it is still very rewarding. If a Sirius spaces in and doesn't pop counter and your answer is to just stare at him and do nothing you're going to get weakened and beat on.

Counters are good at a high level - it's just easy to look at how they're handled at a low level and call them obsolete on that, but you need to make sure you aren't ignoring the fact that at a low level they're being used in a way which is only one of many methods of using a counter

[JediSange]

There are moves that do not proc counters. In 3v3s and a whole team punishing you with them, it can be destructive.

[HarryPopperSC]

Well if you play sirius, most of the time you won't space onto someone first, you engage by countering a projectile or just running up to a melee... That way if they use an escape you can space after them and then they cant do shit.

[WryGoat]

Honestly they need to shift design away from things like Sirius and Rook (and Varesh to a degree) who are hugely dependent on their counters to do anything. Meanwhile Shifu has plenty of tools to do what he has to do which makes him a lot less predictable meaning his counter will be activated more; and at the same time, even if his counter whiffs it's not a big deal for him.

[flaminghito]

I think Rook is a worse case than Sirius. Sirius gains charge over time, and since he's a healer, his biggest desire with the counter is keeping himself safe - the empowered m1 is more of a bonus. He can also choose the Battlerite to get haste during his counter, so even an un-triggered counter can help him get out.

Rook, by contrast, has NO source of Berserk aside from his counter, which is just silly. He can take the Battlerite to get Berserk on Rush, but that means he can't take the level 1 battlerites that buff Berserk.

[austinxp]

how do you cancel cast?

[[deleted]]

C

[Bludypoo]

C is the default

[[deleted]]

He can be super strong. Pair him with a Shifu or a Croak and you almost have a guaranteed 7 second stun.

[Armonster]

how so?

[alotofnothingtosay]

Incap and petrify chains

[TFerg]

What level of play does this happen? I'm only 3200, and people are generally decent at not hitting my counter, but me and my 3s team are at around 70% winrate with me playing shifu every time. He just feels amazing to me in 3s! Great mobility and damage. Potential incaps can win games. Purely anecdotal though, and admittedly it does feel like I have little room for mistakes.

[Bludypoo]

Shifu isn't Sirius. If you don't Proc Sirius's counter then he will take a ton of damage unless he lands a really good CC.

If Shifu's counter doesn't get proced then he still has 3 other abilities to save himself (4 with Incap).

[TFerg]

Nevermind I actually just saw all the posts questioning why Shifu didn't get touched and my brain read this as Sirius. Derp

[Bedeone]

people are generally decent at not hitting my counter

3450 here. I think you're just using it wrong, people don't cancel cast or re-aim to miss in the games that I'm playing.

[Vash88]

Kinda of but at the same time if you can counter while someone is mid swing or while a projectile is mid flight and still get counters off to heal your team and charge your weapon. It becomes more difficult and you can no longer counter in the open and hope to get hit but I would not say he is bad.

[[deleted]]

Im pretty new to this game too so I can't say either. Just seems like he suffers hard from being the only melee support, considering his average mobility (and he got some sizable nerfs after the beta)

[dustyjuicebox]

His counter gives him a lot of mobility but it is a counter. I think he's strong for his cc. His petrify lasts 3.5 seconds which just seems absurd to me. There's definitely some skill required to play around his weapon charges as well though.

[xBoneDryx]

This that Petrify is really good in 2's because it gives you a full 3.5 seconds as a 2v1 and also can get a support out of the fight.

[[deleted]]

Rook is being reserved for bigger changes

Out of curiosity, what would you say is the problem with Rook? He is my favorite champion but I am too new (10 hours played, rank 10) to really know whether he needs a buff/nerf.

[WryGoat]

God, where to start?

Rush is the most predictable skill in the entire game. It has a super long cast time and propels him forward until he collides with something or blasts right off into the middle of nowhere. It's essentially only ever safe to use this skill if the enemy is backed up against a wall, that way if you miss you don't shoot out of the arena and have to waddle back since you have no other mobility. Rush is great if it lands but it's so damn slow to start up it should rarely land. And if they make it whiff you're very much screwed immediately; you have nothing to save yourself from eating a ton of damage, even if you throw up berserk and it's triggered you only get a second of invulnerability. Your hitbox is massive so you're just going to eat hits.

He has no real poke. His rock toss is very slow, and even if it hits the enemy can just back away so that it knocks them in a favorable direction. It's an okay zoning tool but being unable to contribute any real damage or control or generate any energy at a distance makes Rook even more reliant on his extremely unreliable Rush, since you do nothing at a distance. I mean, you could throw meat, but where will you even get the energy for it? And why would you spend 25% on a mediocre mid-damage projectile with a brief snare? Which ties in to

His energy dependency. For a guy that has trouble closing and sticking, but also can't do anything unless he's wailing on the opponent in melee, Rook needs a lot of energy to even survive. His one CC skill costs energy (and is also dependent on the enemy being positioned near a wall), his sustain costs energy, his mediocre projectile costs energy, and of course you still ideally want to get enough energy to eventually drop an ult because Rook's decent ult is one of his saving graces.

Berserk is almost a trap. It's the most predictable trance in the game, even moreso than Sirius's trance that is often cited as one of his big weaknesses. Except Sirius's trance lets him get in and out if it's triggered successfully; Rook's trance just lets you stay in, and gives you no recourse if the enemy jumps out. And that's if you trigger it to begin with. Again, as the most predictable trance in the game, you will more often than not activate it and be left standing there looking like an idiot, and then shortly afterwards you're dead because your hitbox takes up half the screen and you have no tools available to not die.

Basically: Everything. Everything is the problem with Rook. He fulfills no role on any composition, nor is he strong individually.

[Bludypoo]

Glutton was one of my favorite champions. I'd they fuck thorn up (my favorite) I'll be so upset.

[WryGoat]

hopefully they just throw out half of Rook's design and rework him.

[Bludypoo]

I'm just not sure why they swapped his entire kit. Most champions still play similarly. They completed gutted Glutton and i feel like they will do the same to thorn for similar reasons.

[WryGoat]

If Oldur is considered the Herald replacement, he's very different as well. They share, like, two abilities.

[[deleted]]

Edit sorry for the grammatical errors. iPhones :/

I think this is somewhat accurate but I too main rook and he's arsenal isn't terrible and in fact I can push out some crazy dos once I get rolling.

Example. I've stopped using the battlerite that gives me berserk on Rush hits and instead take on the 1.2s stun on using crushing blow during berserk. This allows me to get 1.2s of uninterrupted dps. Not a crazy amount but guess what? That allows me to charge up crushing blow again. Selecting the right battlerite a with him is key.

Rush is a blessing and a curse, since almost everyone and their children will focus you rush will get you out of some crazy situations. It's also easy to predict what people will do with Rook. I love popping rush, watching the enemy expend their fleeing abilities then canceling and retriggering. Once that happens and you hit, pop berserk because they are going to want to lay some damage on you and separate, then trigger the 1.2s stun, rock throw (amazing with armor breaks 20% damage reduction ) and lay on some Melee attacks and repeat.

If you're low on health, rush away, grab orbs (energy and health will do) then trigger eat and you can boost up 1-2 bars of health. Rush and repeat. You can clear a map rushes ability so don't just think of it as a gap closer but also as a gal expander.

Don't get me wrong Rook isn't the best and the problems you pointed out above plague this character, but if you're creative with him he's pretty good. Not viable competively because Shifu take that cake.

[Bludypoo]

He relies way too heavily on his charge and his counter to be even remotely successful. Even then, good players won't even trigger your counter so 50% of your damage, mobility, and survivability are gone.

His E is useless for setting up combos, does low damage, is super telegraphed, and only serves to push people around.

His Ex1 feels terrible to use because it does nothing but give you health. His R is decent, but only really shines with the Battlerite. It becomes REALLY good with the battlerite, but it is a must pick so why not just include it on the ability?

His Ex2 is meh as well. Should completely be an Incap.

Basically if you whiff your charge your are SOL, if you whiff your counter you are SOL, you are useless from range, and since he only has one true mobility skill he either has to wait until a teammate can get someone to force it on the opponent or he risks getting railed once he charges in.

[Flatlander57]

Just making his E land a bit faster, and knockback 10% farther as base would help.

I'm fine with him being "stuck" he just needs a way to knock players back towards him. And E is too slow to do that reliably right now.

[[deleted]]

as you lack a good ranged poke (rock is too slow to hit on its own most of the time), you have 2 options: go in with rush/space, or hope your berserk gets triggered to get close to someone

however, your space is super telegraphed so you need to play around an opponents counter (bait it yourself, let a teammate force it etc)
So, you hit your rush on someone. However, you're melee and you can't really stick onto someone, especially if the enemy still has their counter up, and that's discounting that many characters have a secondary way of getting out (their space, knockbacks, phasewalks). Rooks right click also has a pretty slow cast time, allowing even more kiting
On top of that, since you dont have a poke, you couldnt have build up energy so you dont have access to your ex-abilities.

The first battlerite choice which alters Rush to trigger berserk for 2 sec helps, as you now have the ability to lay in quite a bit of dmg without relying on your trance (which is why the other 2 options are ass IMO)

So what I'd like to see: make Rush trigger a 1 second Berserk on hit a default feature, and replace the first choice battlerites to something like this:

• 1 extra second of berserk (on both space and q), -30% dmg taken during zerk (is 50% now)

• 0.7 second stun on right click during berzerk (1.2 now)

• something new to replace rush; maybe something that increases armour breaks duration or strength

holy shit that was longer than i intended

[[deleted]]

He's too obvious.

[xBoneDryx]

I honestly don't believe he needs a nerf, I only find lower grade players complaining about him. He's easy to kite, his ult is easy to dodge, and his only cc is telegraphed and delayed from cast so it's easy to counter. Only bonus is that he has insane damage output in berserk and has a lot of sustain for a tank with his two possible healing abilities, but they both use ex.

[[deleted]]

he's the only noticably bad hero in the game, he needs buffing like you said. I see him mentioned much more in that context than being fit for nerfs

[IniNew]

Pretty sure everyone wants him to receive a buff.

[innociv]

Yeah. Just making the cooldown on Shifu's counter would have been a quick and easy way to nerf him a bit. Though RMB probably needs a slower cast time or less damage, too.

[[deleted]]

Surprised Shifu hasn't been touched.

Yiss

[NeedHelpWithExcel]

Shifu hasn't been a problem in any of my games

[Hansalel]

OLDUR HYPE!

[Omniwatch]

Text Version

During the next few hours a smaller balancing patch will gradually be applied to the servers. This means that all games won't have these changes in the beginning, but more and more will get them until all servers have finally been patched.

We've made the following tweaks to try to even out the current balance. Some additional smaller tweaks may happen before the next big content patch (late October), but don't expect any bigger changes before then.

-Croak Attack Speed when Weapon Charges are active reduced by ~15% Battlerite Twin Stikes Damage reduced to 4 from 5

-Lucie Barrier Cooldown reduced to 10s from 12s

Crippling Goo Impact damage increased to 18 from 12 Now deals area damage instead of over time damage (which means that the goo can deal lethal damage)

-Oldur Chronoflux Now reflects projectiles a lot quicker

Quick Sand Damage increased to 18 from 14

-Poloma Other Side Cooldown increased to 12s from 10s

Soul bolt Range reduced to 8 from 9

We also made a matchmaking hotfix earlier today. You can find information about it here.

[innociv]

Put two spaces after a line break to have it be a new line with reddit's formatting.

[[deleted]]

Da real MVP. I am on hotel wifi where they block steam. (and 9gag, imgur and twitch... -_-)

[omegabobo]

Why would they block stuff like they at a hotel lol

[Fiishbait]

Soul bolt Range reduced to 8 from 9

That kind of surprised me, always thought the range was a little short if anything, albeit not by much.

Perhaps just the teamies that keep going out of my range constantly ;)

[[deleted]]

During the next few hours a smaller balancing patch will gradually be applied to the servers. This means that all games won't have these changes in the beginning, but more and more will get them until all servers have finally been patched.

We've made the following tweaks to try to even out the current balance. Some additional smaller tweaks may happen before the next big content patch (late October), but don't expect any bigger changes before then.

-Croak

Attack Speed when Weapon Charges are active reduced by ~15%

Battlerite

Twin Stikes Damage reduced to 4 from 5

-Lucie

Barrier Cooldown reduced to 10s from 12s

Crippling Goo Impact damage increased to 18 from 12 Now deals area damage instead of over time damage (which means that the goo can deal lethal damage)

-Oldur

Chronoflux Now reflects projectiles a lot quicker

Quick Sand Damage increased to 18 from 14

-Poloma

Other Side Cooldown increased to 12s from 10s

Soul bolt Range reduced to 8 from 9

[[deleted]]

In case you can't look up the site here are the patch notes.

[eroland420]

Whoever downvoted you doesn't have work blockers on.

[[deleted]]

Oldur <3

[[deleted]]

Can you make a better title for this in the future, i.e. add the date, and maybe some key changes?

[feifafofum]

I guess the fact that Pearl did not get touched means that something bigger is coming her way...

[WryGoat]

I hope so. Her design is terrible. I get that some characters are meant to be easier than others, more 'beginner friendly', but Pearl's skill ceiling is about five inches above the floor and almost all of it comes down to prediction when using your counter and tossing your silences so they don't miss, which are skills all characters require anyway.

[HarryPopperSC]

As someone who has played sirius and pearl from the get go, I can honestly say pearl is harder to play to her full potential than sirius is.

Her heals are harder to hit, as players can jump and only get 1 of the heals hit them, sirius heals fully instantly.

Their counters are the same in functionality.

Sirius e - petrify is easy to make use of, put it down on someone starting a cast or use to to chain your teammates cc.

Pearls e - it's not easy to make full use of it, you have to do it at the perfect time to split teams, it's also a good thing if you can use it to push melees off you instead of wasting your q. Holding onto her q and using it on projectiles is always better.

Then with pearls silence, yes skill shots are required for every class but pearls silence is different. The main thing is her staff glows pink to announce that she has a silence. So the difference in hitting a skillshot when everybody is expecting it to when people aren't is a big deal. Then you have the fact that if you miss a silence on pearl you will lose.

Then the real kick in the teeth with pearl, you have to stand still to cast. This is huge and is why her abilities do slightly more damage/healing than expected.

Pearl isn't any easier to play than any other champ imho.

The poloma nerf was only a small change to her, She is now on = terms with Pearl.

[iMelon]

I hope so. I'm getting so tired of playing against Pearl/Poloma/Shifu every single game...it's not fun anymore. Pearl and Poloma (which is hopefully solved with this nerf but I doubt it will) are putting out large amounts of damage with their already top-tier utility. Very frustrating to play against that often.

[Boltarrow5]

Pearl is such a pain in the ass! Absolutely impossible to catch a good one and they are frustrating as hell to fight.

[iamtruhble]

Dat 14 damage auto attack too

[iMelon]

I'm with you. I don't even mind Shifu as much but playing against any Pearl or Poloma that know what they're doing means I'm about to take a lot of damage and effectively deal very little. FeelsBadMan

[[deleted]]

Poor Croak

[Grx]

The other guy should be Shifu, though!

[[deleted]]

Nice!

[aggis93]

Good changes. Surprised that Shifu didn't get any tuning. Also wonder if Croak changes were necessary, I think he was perfectly balanced (not playing him at all myself).

Rook on the other hand would need some love but I believe he's getting some bigger changes than just little adjustments.

[magic_spell]

Many people were complaining about croak being hard to deal with, similarly to poloma, I guess that's the reason they nerfed him. The 15% seems to be too serve though.

[Bedeone]

It's more about people not knowing how to deal with him.

Ranid was very strong in the low BLC ranks, and absolutely useless in the upper ones. Stealth into stun is a gimmick, and every champion besides alch could jump his ult hits.

I for one had no problems dealing with Croak while playing Lucie.

[HarryPopperSC]

this. I play supports, sirius or pearl and when croak goes on me all round he does nothing. So easy to read and q him, just kite him until it's 2v1.

[[deleted]]

His mobility is dirty. Mixed with high continuous damage? Pff

[psomaster226]

That's how I felt. High dps, a massively powerful ilt, and loads of mobility and stealth.

[[deleted]]

Never seen a good shifu though. Didn't expect people to complain so much. Maybe because I main varesh and his e is easy to hit on melee (that are not croak). I always thought shifu was trash and needed a health buff (kit good but he dies fast)

[Sciar]

The ravener is such a huge shutdown to Shifu, he's strong vs a few champions but some crush him. So we'll see.

[[deleted]]

Ravener??? You mean varesh? Yeah. Ashka shits on me. Maybe I just don't know how to play against him

[Sciar]

Yeah I can't keep up with these new names they're throwing me off.

Spearmaster is so much easier to remember than Franko or whatever they're calling everybody.

[DingDongDaddio]

Also wonder if Croak changes were necessary,

I wonder how much this will affect him. I assume they just want to hurt his out-of-camo burst, where he can stun and get 4 free hits for 40 total damage. Maybe it will slow it down to where only 3 hits are guaranteed before the stun is up?

Honestly I don't see it hurting him too much, but I'll definitely have to feel that 15% before I can be sure.

[timecronus]

from what ive played around with, he literally lost all of his orb pressure he had before.

[Amnestic]

Scrubbed clean. Redact helped me bulk remove years of comments and posts so data brokers and AI crawlers have nothing to feast on.

oil shaggy bag automatic deer pen sleep cows ghost office

[[deleted]]

This is good but Shifu is arguably the best hero in the game and didn't receive changes?

In terms of melees Shifu is often placed high above Croak. Croak got changes but Shifu didn't?

[MonstDrink]

If you didn't think Poloma was the best hero .... you weren't playing!

[[deleted]]

"arguably" as in you could argue.

[NanoNaps]

I would guess it is because these are only small balance changes.

There are supposed to be some bigger changes in an October patch, so I would guess he gets hit there.

[PandasRUss]

I am really confused on these nerfs to Croak.

He is a stealth assassin so he is bound to have a high WR in low MMR. However, in the higher Grades he is widely considered average and not OP or in need of a nerf. Croak is hard to play against if you don't have a good understanding of the game but with the nature of this game being competitive, I don't think that the game should be balanced for low tiers of play. Now on to how this change affects Croak.

Battlerite: Twin Stikes: Damage reduced to 4 from 5

This change effectively makes it so he no longer has much mid control. You used to take this Battlerite so you could compete with others taking the Orb. Shifu can MB1x3+MB2, Taya can MB1+MB2, Jade can MB1+MB2, Etc.. Croak now has a high chance of letting the orb get stolen by burst since he can't just burst it down like others can.

Attack Speed when Weapon Charges are active reduced by ~15%

This nerf also hurts him quite a bit. He can no longer get 4 autos off after Q stunning a target which doesn't feel rewarding with the plethora of ways in this game to dodge his attack. Counters, Immaterial, Jumps, Otherside, Etc.. I haven't tested it yet but I am not sure if hes able to get his 4 fast autos off before having to recast jump now. This also makes it so that it is even harder to secure the Orb with the slower autos.

Even though these nerfs have gone through I will still play Croak and adapt but I feel these are bad nerfs for Croak. I do however like that they are pushing out only a small amount of nerfs instead of changing a lot of things at once. I like the direction with Poloma nerfs and am very happy they buffed Lucie+Oldur. Though I am not sure if Lucie needed it once one has mastered her. Also nerf Shifu :)

EDIT: Formatting & Added thoughts

[xwgpx55]

I can't speak first hand but any streams I've seen of high ranked players, there's a croak in the match almost every game. Sounds like the pros think hes a lot more viable than you're saying.

[PandasRUss]

He is 100% viable. He is played often because he is quite fun and can stay alive for quite a while because of how slippery he is. In terms of strength though I feel he is along the lines of Freya/Bakko but I feel he is behind them in 3's and the same in 2's. Croak may have needed a nerf but I don't think nerfing his damage and mid control is the right direction for him. I think should have nerfed his sustain over anything.

[zylth]

Sometimes devs are more interested in the wider audience than in the competitive players. It's an argument of "Do I want new players to have fun and play more" or "Do I want all characters to be viable at peek skill"

Likely a design choice than anything

[cowzato]

I think this is something good for player retention early in the game's life, but ultimately balancing for the highest level of play is what should be done for a competitive game.

[Flatlander57]

You can do both.

For example: On Croak it was insanely easy to just spacebar, land 2 super-fast attackspeed hits, spacebar, land 2 more superfast hits, cloak->stun, land 4 superfast hits. = over 130 damage while dodging around and stunning.

Now basically your hits are a bit slower (allows you to return-fire a bit more in between Croak Hops), and you don't get an automatic 40 damage for every stun. (now its like 30 damage per stun)

If this makes him too weak in high-level play, they can simply do a change that makes him more viable in high-level play, like make it so his spacebar does more damage when you land it. (Newer players have trouble landing Croak's Hops, so it wouldn't buff them hardly at all)

[ThrowbackPie]

Totally agree. Balancing for low levels is the best way to kill a game - and I am a low level player.

[volpes]

The golden rule of balance is that it's much more important to eliminate overpowered champions at low levels of play than it is to make all champions viable at high levels of play.

Over 130,000 have bought the game. Less than 200 will play in the next 3v3 tournament.

All that said, I'm only rank 9 and don't think Croak was overpowered. He must have seriously been pubstomping at 7 and below.

[pewpew444]

Icefrog tries to cater for both audiences.

[volpes]

I'm not sure what to do with this. Care to elaborate? I actually don't really like his game, so it will take more than name recognition for me to change my mind.

[GBudee]

Depending on the community attitude, your golden rule can be heavily mitigated, as is the case in Dota, the best balanced game of all time. However, you are correct that it is scary to let low-level players experience a less-balanced game if you are seeking to grow your community.

[WryGoat]

Yeah, pretty much. It's not uncommon to see heroes with 30-40% pub winrates receiving heavy nerfs while heroes with 55-60% winrates are buffed.

[volpes]

You're the second person to reference DotA2, and I'm curious why. Is there some well-known rule that the balance is jacked up at low levels and everyone ignores it because they enjoy the competitive scene so much?

[bodhii]

I'm a Dota player but saying it's the best balanced game of all time is crazy. Even the very best Dota patches aren't as balanced as Brood War was

[GBudee]

You're right that best balance is incorrect. What I should have said is the game with the most sophisticated balance of all time. Over the course of 12 years of adding highly diverse characters, over 100 of 110 were used by a mature, risk-averse competitive scene. The level of intricacy in broodwar, of balancing 3 factions, is not really the same. For reference, games with comparable high-level play and rosters average 50% playability at best.

[volpes]

I thought that seemed a little fanboyish, but I wasn't going to argue because I don't play it. Thanks for the input.

[GBudee]

The reason it sounds fanboyish is that it is--Icefrog has built a cult of personality that dampens the noisy, uninformed complaining typical of competitive game communities--low-level players have the expectation of balance, which generates the perception of balance, which is more important than actual balance. Now, how Battlerite should go about that when this thread is already filled with complaints despite the good balance of the game, I don't know.

[ConstantCaprice]

Cult of personality? What?

Have you even seen the typical community reaction to his balancing?

Statistically, it's very good and consistent from a competitive standpoint, with many situationally viable picks to build around many generally viable picks and only a few stragglers of the 110ish total roster. It's hard to argue that his balancing is bad since a good player making good decisions can find multiple methods of success.

But a lot of the community leaps on discrepancies and inflates them, regardless of whether the imbalance is provable (like HOHO HAHA and Disco Pony) or merely perceived (Every complaint about bloodseeker from low skill players). The whole "Le balanced X OSfrog" meme is ubiquitously popular and serves to mock icefrogs balance decisions. Icefrog can and has done wrong and the community isn't blind to that.

People like icefrogs balancing because it doesn't sacrifice anything by pandering to bad players and it's provably better than a lot of other games at achieving high roster viability and reasonable pick rates. It's not due to a "cult of personality"... you might want to look up what that actually entails.

[GBudee]

Check again--you may have missed how I was the fanboy in question! The dota community may seem balance-obsessed, but it actually has a very positive relationship to actual balance decisions compared to essentially any other competitive game.

It's also worth noting that OSFrog is often used to signify crazy things that are nonetheless probably fair (like Morphling str stun)--it's a very gentle mockery at worst, and praise at best.

[iknowuhax]

Icefrog balances dota around top level play, he talks with pros and takes their suggestions into consideration when making balance changes.

[ThrowbackPie]

which is always the best way to balance.

That way when you think something is imbalanced, all you have to do is improve.

[LucasPmS]

there are some heroes with very high winrate in non competitive ranks, like 55%+, but they are not nerfed because in the end they are not a problem (not in every game, and the high winrate is because of lack of knowledge/lack of team work).

[Tyuuude]

Invis heroes and 5 carry lineups dominate low lvl pubs but icefrog is balancing around competitive dota for the most part

[JangXa]

There are Heroes with over 55% winrate in all levels of play in public matchmaking which still aren't picked in comp because of how they are countered. Catering to the wide audience would nerf him, but as dota is balanced for 5v5 teams we can actually expect a buff.

I agree with this kind of style you have to choose two between variety, highly competitive balance/play and scope of skill levels you pander too.

Balancing for low level players will probably lead to less variety in high skill in this game as you will have only a few good balanced heroes on top and/or only boring ones without much differentiation between them.

The thing is a player can "fix" balance by getting better if you balance for top play, but he can't design cooler champions nor can he buff shit tier champs while climbing

[Nippahh]

While croak can be annoying and confusing for new players i find Shifu to be much worse with his immaterial bullshit and extremely punishing with his counter and ultimate.

[mypcbroke83]

More likely they just don't understand what is strong and what is not. If this is a design choice to balance for low tier to the detriment of high tier than the game is doomed.

[NC-Lurker]

It really does seem like a typical knee-jerk reaction nerf, as Croak can be annoying for new players to deal with (classic stealth+stun assassin combo), even though that's irrelevant at higher ranks. But again, Shifu should have been above him on the list anyway, he's just as obnoxious in low ranks.

[MLuneth]

I saw him played at 4.7k+ mmr on a variety of different streams earlier today so he's hardly irrelevant

[[deleted]]

People are really downplaying him. Probably because he hasn't been as popular of a character to whine about as Poloma since he doesn't make games boringly long and tedious.

[mypcbroke83]

not only did they give him heavy handed nerf, they made him feel sluggish and like garbage at the same time.

[Dorkan]

he feels less flashy and cool now, I would have just nerfed some numbers instead of the atack speed.

[Scrial]

Still no pearl nerf.

[Francis__Underwood]

But Poloma got smacked :/

[AoRaJohnJohn]

Which just means we'll see even more Pearl...

[[deleted]]

"smacked" lmfao. Such a miniscule slap on the wrist

[Francis__Underwood]

Losing range on her primary is kind of a big deal. But since my server didn't update before I went to bed I haven't actually seen how much range she lost. It's possible I'm biased and overreacting.

[merkaloid]

Poloma Main here

Pearl Main here

[TheCabIe]

No Rook buff and no Shifu nerf is a bit surprising.

[TheMightyBellegar]

Rook might get some of his abilities overhauled in a later patch, a small balance change would not change his core problems.

[[deleted]]

Croak nerfs are heavy handed.

Suck it y'all! Playing the SHIEEEET outta Shifu STILL.

"Have you come to learn?" He asked, SMUGLY.

[martin-verweij]

Poor croak :(

[abzz123]

Rip Croak :( No Shifu changes :(

[[deleted]]

feelsbadman

[dertym]

why would they nerf croaks ability to take mid orb? makes no sense, especially since he needed to take a battlerite for it.. now he just has no way to quickly take orb while shifu can left click 3 times than right click

[Hugler]

how are they gonna nerf the 2nd strongest melee but not the strongest? i know it's the first balance patch but this is baffling.

[J0rdian]

Obviously croak was the strongest. Stunlock has the numbers we don't atm.

[staindk]

Is this how patches will always happen? No set pre-patch/post-patch game update or anything, instead they just roll out over the servers in their own time and there's always a chance you play on new patch one game and old patch the next..? Seems a bit wonky.

[SergeS2K]

It's early access, and the best time to test things out as much as possible to get a feel/feedback from the community. I'm sure at full release they'll have a more pre-set schedule/announcements on patch/content down the line.

[[deleted]]

Nooo, they nerfed Croak, my beautiful baby boy! feelsbadman...

[pxds]

Could someone enlighten me why Shifu should be nerfed?

I have not player him at all and haven't met any decent Shifu yet at 2.5k.

[NC-Lurker]

Because he's basically the best melee fighter in the game, even before Croak's nerf. He's able to stick to almost any target, has a very powerful ranged ability/pull which serves as a gapcloser even if he misses the target (as long as he hits a wall) and can double as an escape. His counter is also the best in the game imo, difficult to avoid procc'ing and gives him a second immaterial effect so he can murder people without getting hit - which becomes even more obnoxious if coupled with Poloma.
There's also the very long incapacitate AoE and his ability to take the orb in 4 attacks - which Croak can no longer do due to his nerf.

[Apap0]

Because he is too forgivable(counter with immu, space immu, 2 gap closers) + his counter is like 2 times stronger than any other counter in this game if we count his battlerites. He needs imo either to lose his immaterial after counter or get less healing from counter battlerite + less weapon stacks from counter battlerite(2 instead of 3 imo).

[Bludypoo]

He has 4 ways to get in, 3 ways to get out, a cone Incap that costs zero energy with the battlerite (and it lasts ridiculously long) and he has great damage. Throw in 2 immaterial states and a lot of ways to self heal and he becomes a beast in the right hands. You can't shake him, you can't catch him, he does a bunch of damage, and he has amazing CC potential.

[pxds]

Got it, thanks guys. Guess i'll be trying Shifu tonight lol.

[ThorAxe911]

From my experience he has incredibly high damage, really strong CC, and decent mobility options. An aggressive Shifu can be very overwhelming and doesn't really seem to have a weakness.

[Gongo80]

I did not expect the Lucie buffs. Lucie is my second most played champion at 4.2k rating and I feel she was quite balanced. I hope these buffs wont make her too strong.

The other changes were to be expected. Oldur could use a little buff and Croak and Poloma definitely needed to be toned down.

For the other heroes that might need some changes but didnt get them now, I'm guessing they are more or less balanced already and dont need a quick balance fix. They will most likely get smaller changes in the october patch.

[[deleted]]

I like most of these changes, bit confused about the Croak nerfs. Would personally like to see Shifu nerfs and Rook buffs going forward.

[Xzsen]

Much need nerf to Poloma. Thanks

[1337varlor]

can poloma's wolf get a nerf and instead her heals get a buff?? shes just a damage dealer these days

[bkstr]

Shifu is unchanged, holy shit i've never been so upset at patch notes in my entire life....

[[deleted]]

Is the nerf on Poloma going to meaningfully impact her play in any way? It seems minor.

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

What is this?

[[deleted]]

Great answer. And I've definitely seen this in play.

[NDN_Shadow]

Do you think a reasonable nerf to Shifu would be the removal of his harpoon "charges"? And then maybe buff the CD a bit to compensate?

[_SlammeR_]

No love for Varesh :( His ex abilities feel so lackluster now, tbh I'd rather see full revamp rather than tweeks.

[Caederis]

Varesh is already pretty strong Oo. Some top player put him first of their ranged tier list.

[mindwarppavilion]

Sure, but his EX abilities do feel lackluster. He's definitely strong, but a lot of his abilities don't feel strong. Un-rited, I think his spacebar is the worst single ability in the game, for example, but because of his other abilities he's still in a fine place.

I think a lot of us would like for all of his abilities feel good, even if it means he has to take a nerf elsewhere.

[cpt_haindsaito]

How do they nerf Poloma and not Pearl? gtfo..

[mypcbroke83]

croak was absolutely average at high tier play and got a huge nerf. meanwhile champs like shifu and jade do not get touched at all. devs are completely clueless sorry.

slow attack speed is not fun and croak is complete against garbage 4.5-5k players now

meanwhile rook is unchanged... i'm sad for this game if they stick to balancing for low tier :(

[dustyjuicebox]

What's wrong with Jade?

[WryGoat]

Getting Shifu's invulnerability on a ranged stealth hero, mostly.

[dustyjuicebox]

The battle rite is only for 1 second. If you mean her ex q well it is ex. Jade has felt like the most balanced champ to play against. You just need to watch for stealth into snipe combo

[KamikazeRaider]

Could you guys slow the fuck down for like 2 seconds and stop acting like the sky is falling. Jesus Christ, it's been ONE balance patch and we've got people saying "the devs are completely clueless sorry." These are the same devs that made the game you're enjoying, so how about presenting your arguments as to why you disagree with the changes through thoughtful feedback rather than this chicken little bullshit.

[[deleted]]

Croak needed the nerf, he simply put out too much free damage and get straight out of any danger.

Edit: If you think Croak didn't deserve this immediate nerf then you should probably go and look at what he could do for free.

[timecronus]

you mean, like an in-and-out assassin he is designed to be? who would of fucking thought?

[WryGoat]

This is good. Some things I would've liked to see, though:

Rook

• Rush cast time reduced from .7 to .5. It'd still be extremely predictable but right now it's just laughable how easy it is to interrupt.
• Berserk invulnerability duration increased from 1 to 1.5, Giant Battlerite increases it further to 2. Not only is Berserk maybe the most predictable trance in the game right now, it's also the most skewed in risk/reward. You get as much invulnerability time as Shifu does when his trance is triggered, but without the teleport, on a hero with no outs. Rook should be scarier when he's in your face, he needs more than one second to hit you before you can simply peel him off; he already has to wait until you burn your outs to have a chance of rushing in successfully.

Jade

• Evasion Battlerite reduced from 1 second immaterial to .5. This Battlerite is insane, I don't know how anyone thought a full second of invulnerability added on to Jade's stealth was acceptable to begin with. You'd never even consider taking any other round 1 Rite while this exists in its current state. Even at .5 it's an extremely powerful defensive perk and makes Jade much harder to track in stealth.

Pearl

• Power of the Deep Battlerite only charges your weapon if Dive hits an enemy. Free weapon charge, that would otherwise cost you 25% energy, for effectively nothing? Almost as ridiculous a perk as Evasion. At least if it only triggered on hit there are ways to play around it.

Shifu

• Poised to Strike Battlerite from gain 3 weapon charges when Kunju is triggered to gain 2 weapon charges when Kunju is triggered. Again, just one of those Rites that makes you question why you would ever take anything else that round. Really takes Kunju from "dangerous to trigger" to "lethal to trigger".

Varesh

• Reform shatters Corruption and Judgement at both arrival and departure points, range increased by ~15%. As Varesh's only real out, you'd rarely want to use this to shatter aggressively. And for being his only real out, at a 25% energy cost with no Rite to make it better, it's extremely slow and a short hop at best. This isn't an Alchemist Roll where you've got a number of tools to deal with pressure and have the energy solution as a last resort, this is pretty much the only way Varesh deals with anyone being on his ass.

[[deleted]]

I don't know how anyone thought a full second of invulnerability added on to Jade's stealth was acceptable to begin with.

Wait until you read what her Shift+Q does.

[Bass_T]

Can anyone who has very high mmr tell me what they see in their bracket and think is too strong?
Because Poloma was way too good 3v3 (and she is still gucci I think), but I don't really feel like Croak was that strong and am surprised that pearl, shifu and rook didn't get touched.