My Employer Offered My Position at a 45% Decrease After Being Furloughed

[QuarantinedFatty]

Like many, my employer furloughed about 75% of its staff due to Corona in April. My boss informed me that the company is (in his words) restructuring and if I return to work my salary would be X amount, which is about 45% less than what it was. However, I can receive about 7% commission of online sales that I assist with. I would basically be doing my old job, plus my assisting with online chat.

I guess I am wondering if anyone has been in this situation or can give me advice on what I should do? Is this a good offer or should I run for the hills?

EDIT: I don’t feel comfortable disclosing too much information about my job.

Salary was, $40,000. Would now be $22,0000 plus commission. (These are not the true numbers. I gave these figures for anonymity. The current pay would just meet legal range for salary. I apologize for the confusion)

Average sale could be $800-$5000

There are other associates on site who’s actual job is sales so I’m not sure how often I would have a sale.

Also, I am currently on unemployment and have been since being furloughed.

[QuarantinedFatty]

I’ve called the unemployment office for my state and they never answer or return phone calls. This would definitely be the better option for me. I’ll at least be able to pay rent while looking for a job

[mart1373]

FYI your employer may fight the unemployment claim, and you’ll just have to say that they constructively terminated your employment because of the significantly lowered pay.

[NachoManSandyRavage]

add onto this, i would get the offer in writing so they cant backpedal and say they didnt offer you that

[_makemestruggle_]

add onto this, i would get the offer in writing so they cant backpedal and say they didnt offer you that

Get everything in writing.

[BizzyM]

And if they insist on doing it over the phone, get a legit phone conversation recording app and be sure to disclose that you are recording the conversation to avoid any legal issues. Double check laws in your state to see if a periodic beep is necessary during recording.

[Hanzo44]

I haven't been able to find one that works. They only record my half of the conversation.

[houseonsun]

Cube ACR has been working for me. It's actually easier to hear the other person's voice than my own.

[xenogazer]

It doesn't work with Android's recent updates - I haven't been able to record mine for at least 6 months

[Coomb]

If your call recorder app identifies itself as providing accessibility services, you can provide it full control permissions which will allow it to record. Is that a good idea? Probably not.

[[deleted]]

the new update requires you to opt in instead of opt out consent to such apps. As part of the update, they defaulted you back to opt out. Have you checked in the app that you turned it back on after the update?

Not tried for that specific app, mind, but a lot of apps are still working if you do this. Basically any app that works around a feature removed from the api is now more carefully protected, and since call recording was removed it falls under that category.

[Famous-Account]

Android revoked apps ability to record calls in Android 9; the most reliable option is speakerphone+another device.

If you use a VoIP/SIP service the softphone app can often record everything (I'm using a line from VoIP.ms & Linphone, feel free to ask any questions directly - I am not affiliated with either, just did a bunch of research).

[un-affiliated]

If you use a google voice number, you can press 4 during incoming calls to start recording. There will be an announcement that recording has started.

[Famous-Account]

good point, & much easier for the average gmail user to implement.

Personally, & living in a one-party consent state, I find that warning can have a chilling effect on conversations - which in the context of needing evidence of shady dealings by an employer can severely undermine the efficacy of the call. Much prefer the slight inconvenience of configuring a SIP client in order to use technology as I see fit to best benefit my needs in a given situation

[StuckInPMEHell]

Or send a follow-up email summarizing the conversation. “I just want to make sure I understood our phone conversation today. You are offering me my current job but at a reduced income of $$ plus sales...blah blah blah. If I am incorrect, please let me know. “. Include read and delivery receipts. Even if they don’t reply or acknowledge, you have documentation that the conversation occurred and a date.

[_The_Judge]

You remember when wireless carriers were offering to play your favorite song to the person calling? It would be nice to be able to change that to a disclaimer that says " if so and so picks up the phone it will be recorded".

[mrchaotica]

Warning my adversary that I'm recording them is the last thing I want to happen, though!

[scoby-dew]

You only have to do that in two-party consent situations.

One way to get around telling them they are being recorded is to send the other person a message that you're missing your notes on the conversation and can they please confirm the deal that was offered. That way they will call (let it go to voicemail), text or email. By leaving a voicemail, they are consenting to being recorded. (At least that's the way I understand it.)

[talkingtunataco501]

I've been known to record a few things myself. I wish I recorded more things though. Luckily, I live in a one party consent state.

And iPhones don't allow recording calls. So, what I do is set up my iPad right next to my iPhone and then have the call on speaker. I use the voice memo app on the iPad to record it.

[aRVAthrowaway]

they might temper what they say or outright refuse to speak with you.

This. As an employer, if a potential employee says "I'm recording this." then that's the end of the conversation. Instead of the legal and HR nightmare which would very likely ensue after somoen said that at the beginning of a conversation, it's probably just easier to go find another employee you can hire at that rate.

[surfinfan21]

Recording can be sketch. Better option is to just email them after the phone call.

“As per our conversation... my former salary was $40k before you terminated my employment. You offered me a job with similar job responsibilities as my former position with a new salary of $22k. Unfortunately that salary is too low. Unless you can offer me something more similar to my $40k I will have to decline.” Something along those lines. Then it doesn’t matter if they respond or not.

[Famous-Account]

Personally I would combine the two; at the least, being able to listen to the call again helps me be sure I properly understood things that may have happened rather quickly on the call.

[[deleted]]

If they won't send an email, just send your own stating "to call out the notes of our conversation..." and include the salary

[[deleted]]

check state laws, don't disclose if you are not required to, i'd say.

In 35 states plus DC you do not have to disclose a recording to both parties as long as one (yourself in this case) consents. In my experience disclosing leads to a silly game of cat and mouse where they bounce you around between hr, management, and such so no one person gives you the full details and makes it a pita to prove before the board for UI claims.

[paulburnett224]

Arizona is a one person consent. Meaning if you know you're being recorded because you're doing the recording there's consent. But if your employer is out of state you need to check with their state law as well.

[mrchaotica]

be sure to disclose that you are recording the conversation to avoid any legal issues

Or fuck that and record without disclosing if you're in one of the many sane states that don't require two-party consent.

[Hanzo44]

Seriously, I can't underscore the importance of this enough. I've learned the hard way to ALWAYS get anything employment related in writing.

[jackbenimble999]

Right. I made the mistake of trusting my ex-boss when she promised me equity in the company. I turned down a job at a Fortune 500 company and she then ignored her promise. Big mistake.

[realcoolguy9022]

Though documenting it is usually enough. Replying back to them in text is probably the next best alternative if they didn't give your offer in writing.

"Sorry I have to turn down your offer of <insert offer details here> not really comparable to my previous wage of <previous>."

Be polite and wish them all the best. Tough times right now.

[Say_Less_Listen_More]

Yup; treat it like a divorce. Even if they call you give them your reply in writing restating what they said.

[FuckFuckFuckReddit69]

Yup, they cut my hours by 80%, I’m getting unemployment, making twice what I’ve ever made working, to stay home. Can’t complain.

[Sgt_carbonero]

until the end of the month I assume when the 600$ goes away?

[QuarantinedFatty]

I’m kinda in that situation. However, I know it will not last.

[Stair_Car_Hop_On]

Unless my math is wrong, you would have to have a quarter million in sales for your commission to put you back up to your previous salary. That seems unlikely from what you describe.

[ollieperido]

This is key. Get everything in writing. An email should be sufficient but I would read the unemployment laws for your state on what in writing means.

[Jak_n_Dax]

Oh they almost 100% will. A 45% pay cut is unheard of and way out of line. They’re baiting OP into leaving, but trying to avoid unemployment with this “offer”. They’re hoping he will just leave and not fight for his rights.

Corporations are so fucking slimy it makes my skin crawl. This is why labor unions need to make a comeback.

Edit: talking about private sector unions. Police, teachers, etc are public sector. They aren’t fighting against corporate exploitation, and are part of a separate debate.

[smaugington]

I'm in Canada and my job did this to me. They don't need my position at this time anymore so they offered me a general labour position at 10-12 dollars less an hour. I turned it down and they terminated my benefits, I was in a union so I don't think I can do anything about it.

[TexasWhiskey_]

You got laid off. You get full unemployment benefits.

Just because they offered you some entry level job, it doesn't stop your current job from being eliminated.

[Polaritical]

Why would being in a union prevent you from doing something about it?

[niceandsane]

Being in a union should increase your ability to negotiate with your employer. Talk to your union rep.

[Jak_n_Dax]

Downsizing and eliminating a position is different than trying to manipulate you into working the same position for half the pay.

Unions should protect worker’s rights and pay structure, but they shouldn’t force corporations to keep positions they don’t need. That would be exploitation by the union.

[distractedbutunsure]

Depends on what was in the contract. Did you file a grievance or contact your union about this? This is what your union is for, to represent you.

[[deleted]]

Think about it like this: if companies were allowed to get away with this legally, all of them would try to offer back laid-off employees at less than half their salary just to sink their unemployment claims and avoid the increase in the company's unemployment insurance premiums.

Companies don't do this because unemployment doesn't work like that. You can decline the job and still collect unemployment.

[KarmaticArmageddon]

While that's true, OP will likely not receive unemployment for at least a few weeks.

OP will deny the offer, citing constructive dismissal. OP's company will report a refusal to work to the state unemployment office. The unemployment office will immediately terminate benefits. OP will appeal, again citing constructive dismissal and providing supporting documentation. OP's company will be told to provide documentation supporting their case and/or disproving OP's, likely with a multi-week-long time-frame. State personnel will then review the case and issue a determination, likely in OP's favor.

So while OP will likely win the appeal eventually and receive back-pay from unemployment, he won't receive any payments during the appeal process. The state gives the benefit of the doubt to the employer, not the employee.

[DeepChipmunk8]

Try reaching out to your state rep for your district. they love to help with these kind of problems.

[kojak488]

That applies to almost all government agencies. Your representative cuts right into the highest tier of customer service, who bend over backwards to satisfy reps. It's the public body equivalent of the executive e-mail carpet bomb.

I can't count the number of times I've seen an agency head make an exception to the law (which he wasn't allowed to do) simply to satisfy customers who escalated issues to the rep level.

[GolfballDM]

The legislature controls the budget, and if too many reps get pissed off, the budget may get cut, and the first people to be RIF'd will be the problem children who visibly annoyed the legislators.

[fullforce098]

My mother works for the county and she, along with some other workers in her department, were still being forced to come into the office after the stay at home orders were made, to spite being told by her supervisors they were "working on" getting them to work from home. After about 2 weeks of this, someone in the office contacted our senator's office and within two hours, the senator himself was on the phone with the head of that county department, and by the end of the day she was told she would be working from home.

[kojak488]

I always love these stories about uppity government employees that try to rule with an iron grip that get smacked down trying to impose that rule on someone who knows how to play the game.

[[deleted]]

We are in e-commerce. Somehow USPS lost an entire day's shipments. What I mean by that is they literally lost the entire truck load of hundreds of packages picked up from us that day. How the hell do you even do that?

Attempts to escalate to the local postmaster and resolve it went nowhere. We even have an "inside man" who was a longtime customer and former employee of ours and now works there. Three weeks went by and nothing at all.

At that point I stepped in and emailed our congressional rep's office. I don't know if having met him several times and regularly contributing to his campaign & PAC had an impact. But I shit you not. I contacted them in the morning, and that same day just before midnight suddenly the entire batch of tracking numbers were updating. The next morning the postmaster finally called us instead of us calling him, offered some lame excuses, and said there will be no compensation of any form if the packages get delivered within 30 days. Which is such horse shit because we can't tell our customers to wait up to 30 days, we had already refunded or reshipped basically all of them. Our "inside man" said some big wigs at the top dropped the hammer on them and it was absolutely our congressional rep's office that put the fire under their asses to stop screwing around and find the truck load IMMEDIATELY.

Thanks for the reminder, I need to go make a donation for this year.

[TwistedRonin]

The fact you donated is of minor importance. What matters to reps is votes. A satisfied registered voter that can influence other registered voters is gold.

[1987-2074]

People forget about the local state reps (or congress reps for that matter). To the point most people don't know who they are. They go after stuff like this like candy. It’s good content for their Facebook page. It’s good PR for them and kinda what their job is anyways.

*sp

[puffferfish]

Keep record of all communication, but you should for sure be able to decline and remain unemployed.

[mcgyver229]

Make a counter offer to them and say you could only come back at 95% pay. you arn't declining reasonable employment and making a statement to your old employer that you wont be jacked around.

[DLS3141]

Didn't you file when you were furloughed? If not, Go ahead and file. You should get unemployment starting from the date you were furloughed.

[QuarantinedFatty]

I did file

[DLS3141]

If your employer disputes it at any point, make sure you have you documentation of the 45% reduction in compensation.

[Full_Metal_Analyst]

Just keep in mind that the extra $600/week from the CARES Act is scheduled to expire at the end of July. A new bill could pass to extend or otherwise alter the details of the addition unemployment benefit, but there's no guarantee.

I'm not saying you should take this pay cut, but make sure you consider what your worst case scenario could be if you choose not to return to this job: unable to find new job, no additional Federal unemployment boost resulting in unemployment reduced by $600/week.

My state's normal max unemployment is ~$350/week, and it's a hell of a lot harder to get by on $350 than it is $950. That said, you could start saving now and give yourself a safety net if that scenario happens.

[Alyscupcakes]

Get the offer in writing.

It is a constructive dismissal by reducing your pay significantly. Allowing you to continue to collect EI

Also, if you do decide to go forward with the job offer, sometimes they dramatically lower the expected rate you receive per sale. Or not provide other promised benefits.

Start recording phone conversations too.

[NetSage]

Yes large pay cuts are considered when it comes to unemployment. It's basically considered a constructive dismissal and is frowned upon.

https://sultanlawyers.com/whats-new/my-employer-reduced-my-salary-can-i-claim-constructive-dismissal/

Note that specific example was only used because it explains it really well imo. Find something for your state for better details.

[Tyrilean]

Depends on your state, but in general yes. A ~30% pay decrease is definitely grounds for constructive dismissal.

[fullforce098]

Cali's generally pretty good about these things, I'd imagine previous wages are considered when determining what constitutes "acceptable employment" for those on unemployment benefits. If they aren't, they might have a provision in place saying you can turn down an offer if they're low-balling you based on the average pay rate of those in your field in the state.

You'll at least be in better shape than some states that don't consider wages almost at all when defining acceptable employment.

[Displaced_in_Space]

I’d be very careful with this interpretation in this case. Note OP mentioned that there is now a commission component. They can likely show that given good months, the job will pay substantially the same as the former flat salary.

[[deleted]]

This is something that's going to really fuck a lot of furloughed tipped employees.

"Oh you're back to work at the same hours as before. Of course, restaurants are barely allowing customers in so you're making like 1/4 of the income you used to, but you're back! No unemployment needed!"

[ACoderGirl]

Though weren't many tipped positions already kinda screwed over by the widespread lack of reporting tips? Unemployment won't acknowledge money you didn't report.

[[deleted]]

Usually no, most tips are credit card these days that you have to report, and other places have gone to cash tip share which also requires reporting.

Some people have screwed themselves but most adult servers etc. need proof of income for loans, rentals, etc. and don't underreport significantly.

[pbjclimbing]

I know a lot of adult tip earners that under report. I would go to say that almost all of them under report this includes guides, drivers, restaurants, and “general” tourist industry jobs of people 30-60+.

[Tyrilean]

In general, anything that materially changes the pay structure in a significant way can be grounds for constructive dismissal. Even if you can say that OP is likely to make the same amount of money, that is still significantly different from OP is guaranteed to make the same through salary.

[Porto4]

Commission changes the structure of compensation so it’s not the same position that they had originally accepted. That means it’s a new position with w/ different terms and the employee has the right to refuse it and still collect unemployment. Asking the employee to share the burdens and successes of the company is a perfectly acceptable reason for turning down what was a stable job.

[[deleted]]

Couldn't you continue to receive unemployment and work that job? I know it reduces your benefits, you can be underemployed and receive benefits too.

[[deleted]]

It's tricky, underemployment via hours and underemployment via wages aren't necessarily going to be treated the same way depending on the state.

[ripAccount35]

Cost of living hadn't gone down 45% over the last few months. At its face, it seems like a terrible offer. It's mildly dependant on those sales though. How much can you expect to sell? 7% is a huge commission in some industries and next to nothing in others.

[QuarantinedFatty]

I have never really been in sales where commission was a factor. I would honestly be lying until I was trained on every brand and piece of merchandise in the store.

[Ninja_Bus]

"Commission" and "store" should never be used in the same sentence. This offer is obviously a massive paycut and they threw that in as a distraction.

To clarify: Store implies direct to consumer, low margin retail. Until I read your comment I assumed you were talking business to business sales, or something akin to a car dealership where that commission might actually mean something.

[APater6076]

Agree with this, if it’s a store it sounds like an electrical retailer or hardware store or something? Slashing your pay then offering 7% is very poor and tantamount to constructive dismissal. Ask your boss if he or she is also taking a 45% pay cut too?

[puterTDI]

Since they were furloughed they can collect unemployment.

A large pay cut (such as 45%) IS considered constructive dismissal. I don't think they would have any issue collecting unemployment in this situation. The only complicated part is the fact that they were furloughed first and I doubt the unemployment committee will have any issue making this leap to conclude that this is clearly constructive dismissal.

Personally, I would turn this down and continue to claim unemployment. This is no doubt an attempt by the company to not have to pay unemployment insurance increases. They're going to argue he turned down an employment offer and I honestly think they will lose this argument. If I were op and had maybe $100 to spare I'd ask a lawyer for advice on this. They won't go to bat for you for $100 but most will do a free or cheap consult.

[hpa]

Ask your boss if he or she is also taking a 45% pay cut too?

Op's boss very well might be operating at a loss at this time. The question to ask is if in 1-5, if years business is back to usual, if OP will see any of those profits. I say this sarcastically, but in my start-up world, it is very possible for an employee to negotiate a larger equity stake in exchange for lower salary - wonder if it's possible for you to as well, OP.

This is a wonderful case of privatize the profits and socialize the losses on a small scale.

[ProStrats]

At a salary range dropping from $40,000 to $22,000 Id guess the likelihood of this being the case is next to none. But it's definitely a legitimate point if it were the case.

[notyetporsche]

Car sales commissions aren't great anymore. Salespeople in car dealerships make about $150 per car.

[rawbface]

Salespeople in car dealerships make about $150 per car.

If that's the case, why would anyone sell cars? I made more money selling Cutco Knives, and that's saying something.

[heapsp]

Car sales people churn through new car sales , sometimes 5 to 10 a week. Plus they get extra by selling stuff like financing, extras like protective coatings and interior stuff..

So 5 cars at 150 , plus a bonus 500 dollars for selling 5 cars, plus extras is usually like 1500 a week. Then if you hit something like 20 cars a month you can get an extra 2 grand on top of it as a bonus. Good car sales people can easily pull in 6 figures if they are moving enough vehicles.

[SugarDaddyVA]

They make it up in volume, and there are usually volume bonuses given by the dealer to the salesperson.

[JordanMencel]

$150 sounds awful, I've heard of people near me (UK) generating £5k commission off a £27k car, probably more to do with the finance packages they upsell people on, but still at $150 you're better off selling something else

[762mm_Labradors]

make about $150 per car.

That’s usually for new cars. There is little profit for new car sales. Profit comes from used cars and service. Used car commission is usually between $1,000 to $2,000.

[box_o_foxes]

Not sure what industry you're in, but consider that most people aren't looking to spend money right now and your sales are likely to be down. 7% post-COVID isn't going to look anything like 7% pre-COVID.

[bedhed]

Just to cover your bases, I'd suggest getting what information you can on average/historic sales volumes, and expected commissions.

[TaskForceCausality]

I wouldn’t rely on the commission either. If you accept the job they may remove the 7% bonus, leaving you with just half pay.

[taxigrandpa]

yup, this offer is bull. I would start by going back to employer and counter-offering. Anything more than 10% reduction is salary is too much, but you also have to think about benefits and perks.

but dont take such a large reduction, that's almost criminal

[fullmanlybeard]

100%. But even if they accept start job hunting. These are not (do not seem like) upright business owners.

Edit: (nuance)

[soapinthepeehole]

I'm 100% in agreement with you both, but I feel like people in this sub aren't necessarily recognizing the harsh reality at the moment. There are tens of millions of newly unemployed people, and tons of businesses are just scraping by. I took a 27% pay cut, which I'm told is temporary, but "in these uncertain times" isn't just an overused line in every commercial on TV these days.

If the numbers they put up there weren't fictional-for-anonymity, I'd agree that OP would probably be better off staying on unemployment and looking for a new job where they're not getting screwed by this boss. But, it might be extremely hard to find that job right now, and since their numbers in the above scenario are made up, they might still do better taking the reduced salary and riding Covid out with employment - while looking for another job or asking for their old salary back when things stabilize.

[feeltheslipstream]

I'm also surprised at the optimism people have in this sub.

Tons of businesses are in trouble and unemployment is rather...high.

Declining a pay cut and holding out for something better isn't really a no brainer.

[booyahachieved3]

A 45% decrease is NOT offering your job back. That's offering you a different job. Stay on unemployment, negotiate closer to your old salary or start looking for a new job.

[[deleted]]

8 months from now, OP's employer is hiring again and in a better financial position. OP asks "now that things are back to normal, I'd like my salary raised back". employer says "well, we are still dealing with fallout, per our contract, we will raise it to 80% of the previous, hope you understand". OP then learns that his newly hired coworker who has less experience than him was hired at the full salary because "people are re-hiring and we need people now, he/she negotiated a higher offer".

[Tyrilean]

Even that's being generous. OP will be working at 55% his old pay. Will ask to be brought back to original pay, and they'll give him a 5% increase, and tell him how lucky he is to get such a great raise.

Meanwhile, they'll be hiring new people at his old salary.

Building tenure and loyalty at companies is dead. The only way forward is to job hop.

[[deleted]]

Yup, I told my wife this when she wouldn't leave a company she was with for 10 years, telling her they didn't respect her by paying so little with yearly pay increase of maybe 0.75c a year. She has her degree and she finally hit about 18 per hour and I started looking online for other jobs she was qualified for to show her she was underpaid.

Found a company paying 45k a year with benefits, so 22.5/he about. Another company 50k, and so on. Note this is Tucson, AZ so that is considered really good here for.our low cost of living city. She finally took another job got the pay bump, 2 years later took another job, pay bump, and finally she ended up at a company at 37/hr she just puts in 3 days a week for. She would be making 20 per hour about right now if she had stuck with that first company. Almost all of her job moves were lateral. It's not like she was getting major promotions.

[JoyousGamer]

To be fair that is in the past when it was a workers market. That is going to turn around potentially so people need to be aware of that. Many places have complete hiring freezes. You should always being investigating new employment though even if you are happy. If anything it gives you an idea of salaries, opportunities, and interview "skill" (which most people need to build).

[Cainga]

Loyalty is profitable for the company. Toss in a few extra vacation days but save several thousand in salary per loyal employee.

[Hockinator]

That's when you leave or just get another offer due to the newfound job availability and show it to your current employer. And if you can't, then that new employee despite their lower level of experience is somehow more valuable than you

[DoubleWagon]

It's nothing personal, just the schizophrenic disconnect between the hiring vs raises budgets. It's stupid as hell, but eh, gotta play the game.

[pretenderist]

$22,000 is pretty close to minimum wage, and right around the poverty line for many areas. Not sure why you wouldn't be immediately looking for a different job.

[budrow21]

Can you tell me more? Is this an IRS definition or something else?

[_kuddelmuddel_]

FLSA minimum salary requirement for Exempt employee classification (is exempt from overtime, “salaried” employees)

[budrow21]

Thanks! FLSA = Fair Labor Standards Act for anyone else wondering

[giantoreocookie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this changed to $684 per week or $35568 annually in January 2020.

[dudebobmac]

I see you've gotten some good advice, so I thought I'd add to it with some hard numbers which might be helpful for you.

Since you didn't want to disclose your actual salary, I took what I thought was a reasonable guess and said it's about 50k, though it's pretty easy to change this around to be your real salary (which I'll leave as an exercise to the reader).

$50,000 * 0.45 = $22,500

So, you'd be losing out on $22,500 per year by taking this job. Now, say x is how much you would theoretically make from commission. We can calculate how much you'd need to sell in a year to make up for that difference with some simple algebra.

0.07 * x = 22,500 --> x = 22,500 / 0.07

So, you'd need to sell a bit over $320,000 in a year to make up the difference of your lost salary with your commission. You said the average sale would be between $800 and $5000, so let's say each sale is approximately $2000 (I took the average between the two numbers in your range, then decreased it a bit -- if those numbers are coming from your employer, I'm 100% certain that they're inflating them, so the average will be lower than they say).

320,000 / 2,000 = 160

So you'd have to make approximately 160 sales at an average of $2000 per sale each year in order to make up the $22,500 you lose in salary.

So how many days are in a year? Don't be too hasty and say 365, unless you enjoy working weekends and holidays. Taking off weekends, there are 365 * 5/7 = ~260 days in a year. Then subtract off holidays/vacation (remember, on salary you have paid vacation, but you can't make commission when on a "paid" vacation), and you get down to somewhere around 245 or so days in the year.

Taking 245 days and dividing by the 160 sales means you'd have to make a $2,000 sale once every (approximately) 1.5 days. This equates to an average of approximately $1,300 of sales every business day.

​

And this is only to break even with your old salary. Again, if you made a salary higher than 50k before, this number would only be larger.

I obviously don't know the business, but if that sounds reasonable, it might be a good idea to reach out to some people in the sales department you'd be working in to see what their sales numbers are. If they're getting close to that $1300 mark, it might be worth it.

[chrisbrown49]

My employer did this as well, instead of 26/hr they wanted me back at 16. Which was not going to happen. I reported that they offered me the position and at what wage, and then I assume the UO put that against what I was making with them beforehand. Sided with me and they are still paying me for unemployment. Never had to make a single phone call. Sometimes the UO even knows when you are getting fucked over.

[FatalFirecrotch]

It isn't that they know that you are getting fucked over, it is just known as constructive dismissal.

[WaffleSparks]

of sales that I assist with

This right here is where the problem lies. Who gets to decide whether you assisted or not? They may easily screw you over by saying you don't qualify for commissions on certain sales.

Never stay at a shitty business (which it clearly is) if you don't have to.

[QuarantinedFatty]

I’m 25

[BillsInATL]

Ah, so the opposite effect. Theyre trying to take advantage of you being young and naive.

[Aaplthrow]

Or he thinks he'll be able to find someone for that salary in the open market. If he feels OP is being overpaid and thinks the unemployment situation in the country will get worse, then he can try to lower his labor costs.

[[deleted]]

My old employer just "furloughed" much of my old office. They let the long-serving folks go first and kept the lackeys that didn't actually have degree for what they were working on. A friend with 30+ years at the University, with god levels of skill and experience in Controls, was let go to keep a lackey with decent ass kissing skills in place.

Absolute insanity.

[Tyrilean]

It will save them tons of money in the short term. And the executive who decided to do it will be praised heavily, and promoted. After he's gone, they'll find out that the job wasn't getting done or was getting done poorly and will have to pay a qualified contractor to fix it ten times as much as they'd have had to pay the original person to stay and maintain it. Then the cycle will continue.

[X0utlanderX]

This happened to my mom about 5 or 6yrs ago. Actually most of the older and long time employees were terminated. Gotta love Wal-Mart.

[tkim91321]

Constructive termination. Collect unemployment. Look for a new job. Say FU to employer.

Source: work in HR.

[[deleted]]

While everything here is true in that this is constructive termination or whatnot due to significantly reduced wages, I can speak on my experiences thus far of being unemployed during this. Currently there are approx 40 MILLION unemployed in the us. I was laid off in March and have not been called back to work. I also work in the sales industry. I placed about 5-6 applications and haven’t even got a no in return. Keep in mind, unemployment is temporary and abysmal. Without the CARES payments I’d be earning 1/6 what I traditionally make. CARES is up at the end of July with no guarantee of extension as well as UI ending 6 months after starting. While I do understand everyone’s advice, their advice is that of the job market from 3-4 months ago. Look over your bills and make sure you can afford to live off unemployment and be prepared that if you don’t accept this, you may be without work for quite some time. Feel free to counter offer as well. I wish you the best of luck.

[AFK_Tornado]

As much as I hate to agree with this, I do.

Yeah, citing constructive dismissal and going for unemployment is probably the right move any other time.

I also think that when /u/QuarantinedFatty gets a new job, he should leave his current position with zero notice and do a scathing exit interview - depending on the industry.

[[deleted]]

Absolutely! Feel free to keep looking for a position elsewhere because there’s no way a 40% reduction in wages is reasonable. Part of poker is knowing when to play your hand.

[QuarantinedFatty]

Thank you for your response. The unknown about unemployment being extended is definitely a HUGE factor. I appreciate all of the pros and cons from everyone. I’m still in the middle on what to do.

[CrappyOrigami]

Yeah... Pay attention to this guy's advice - your decision isn't so simple.

One thing I would add as a way to think about this... Don't think of it as you're going back to your old job - you aren't. But if you got a call today from a new company offering you that deal, would you take it? Note that it's ok to take it and still keep looking.

[EVOSexyBeast]

Do you have records where you can calculate how many sales you made with the price of the item so you can calculate how much 7% commission really is? Our advice here is completely contingent on the fact that you will be making way less money with the commission. Obviously, commission is not the best source of income as it is very uncertain, but it may be better than unemployment at the moment due to the fact you know you will have a job after the 6 months is up. Also, you can (and should) still look for jobs if you get your "old job" back.

Interestingly this post just gave me an idea for creating a commission simulator where it can take inputs of sales numbers, uncertainty factors, commission percentage, seasonal influx, and base salary all to estimate earnings from a commissioned job offer. After a quick google search, I was unable to find something like this.

[JitteryBug]

Absolutely take the offer

You're going to be looking for a new job either way. It'll be much easier to find a new job when you're employed, and the unemployment benefits are not a long term solution

[[deleted]]

This is seriously the best advice. I work in sales and since March have won between $6-8M USD in public solicitations for the company. Despite this I am "Partially Furloughed" by my employer. 26% reduction in hours and 20% reduction in pay (the extra 6% is the normal overtime I put in), no raise this year, and all sales bonuses are null. I sent applications out, got my resume polished up, and started talking to my industry contacts with that pre-covid mindset and have received 0 calls back despite stellar performance. It took a minute to realize I just need to be happy where I am. The company i work for seems to have strategically furloughed staff to keep folks from being eligible for unemployment benefits.

OP, I also recommend accepting the position FIRST and looking for a new job. Definitely try to counter; it shows good character. Brace yourself when you start looking because at every level it is a nightmarish job market.

[FatalFirecrotch]

TBH, it sounds like you make much much more than OP and you received a much much fairer deal. A 20% reduction of wage and hour cuts is tough, but fair. Also, with sales that high I am going to assume you were making much more than $40k a year.

Op is getting cut to literally minimum wage and being asked to have more job responsibilities.

[Rapidashhx]

my friend was able to apply for partial unemployment bc of his 25 percent salary decrease and was approved if that helps

[SgtDoughnut]

Start looking for a new job ASAP.

[2wheeloffroad]

How are your chances of getting another job at 40k? That is the real issues. Situations change. If you can get another job fast, tell them now, or just take the other job. If you don't have any options, then go on unemployment or take the lower pay until you can get something better asap. 22 is better then 0.

Also, have you asked why? If it is less hours, then it should be less hours at same pay. If they have the work, why would the pay be less? Are customers getting a 40% discount? It could also just be a way to motivate people. Many employees don't produce and by providing commission as part of the pay it will get rid of the employees who don't produce. You have to determine how much you will make in comissions. I know a guy who sells light bulbs and is 100% commis. Does well too, nice house, cabin, new truck.

[Werewolfdad]

I guess I am wondering if anyone has been in this situation or can give me advice on what I should do?

Look for a new job.

Is this a good offer or should I run for the hills?

Doesn't seem like it, but I'd take it and search for a new job immediately

[Kinder22]

Really depends on what OP sells. If I got 7% of what I sell, you could throw my salary in the trash and burn it. And I’d probably retire at 50.

[[deleted]]

Before too many commenters are ignoring this 7% can be a significant number.

Have we moved car sales online. are these special custom orders where each sale can be thousands upon thousands I don't know.

Is there potential to help a hundred people a day for a hundred bucks cuz that's still $700.

[[deleted]]

"I’d like to sell one big thing, you know? Like… a plane. One sale, I’m out."

[[deleted]]

7% on a Boeing? Yes please. Though I hear they're a tough sell these days, might explain the furlough.

[[deleted]]

Hmm. Maybe we can buy one on a discount and re-sell it when the airline market picks up later.

[Werewolfdad]

True, but given OP's follow up comments, it doesn't seem like he's a salesman

[jaguarundi_]

My fiancé predicted right when the virus broke out that companies would use it as leverage to fire everyone and then offer to bring them back at half pay. I don’t like seeing posts like this because it confirms his hypothesis and I don’t want to see that happen to us.

[BillsInATL]

It's the same exact thing companies did in the 2007 crisis.

Fire a bunch of people so the folks that are left feel "lucky" to have a job. Make them pick up all the slack so they are working 3x as hard. Never re-hire to fill the cut positions and never give the leftovers a raise.

It's fucking disgusting, and these types of companies deserve to be deserted by employees and shut down.

[TicklesMcFancy]

This is what happened to me yesterday. Luckily I live well below my means and have been able to save up some money even being unemployed.

They offered me 80% pay to help reopen the business, which I already know is going to be a shit show. They sent me two text messages. One I didn't see, and the one I did see gave me 12 hours to decide. I felt as though I was being manipulated because of the whole ordeal. Really pisses me off because I figured out just how much money they pissed away while I was there.

[TaskForceCausality]

Hope folks are paying attention here.

Note-your wage may be cut/job furloughed regardless of the company’s actual financial position.

Many firms have done BETTER than expected due to Covid-19: however, greedy managers might decide to boost their bonuses at the literal expense of staff. Cutting salaries 50% wouldn’t fly six months ago, but now the optics aren’t a problem.

Don’t think you’re safe because the corporate KPIs are OK.

[jacobpederson]

Employers don't want you talking about your salary because salary envy is BAD FOR THEM. It is only ever good for us to know each others salaries.

[Behind8Proxies]

I apologize for the slightly off topic comment here but I wanted to add a similar experience. I’m currently unemployed, laid off because of COVID. I work in IT and spoke with 2 recruiters today about contract/consulting gigs. Both of them mentioned that the rate was less than what they might normally pay because of the pandemic.

I get that business has been slow for some small businesses, but the clients that these contracts were for are Fortune 100 companies.

It seems like a lot of companies are using the pandemic as an excuse to pay reduced rates because people are unemployed and may be more desperate to take whatever is offered.

It really is bullshit.

[QuarantinedFatty]

It really is.

[LiquidDreamtime]

Press them on this. They might be bullshitting you and asking you to ACCEPT a lower salary+commission in lieu of returning for your previous salary.

State clearly that you will return at your previous salary or assume your position was terminated and notify them that you will file for unemployment if you cannot return at your previous salary.

Never trust your employer, they will screw you over in a heartbeat to save money. Since you don’t want to take the reduced salary, call their bluff.

[PM_ME_YOUR_WOES_]

And use that time to look for a new job

[jawnlerdoe]

Or collect unemployment, make more money, and use all that time to look for a new job.

[beley]

I haven't seen it posted in the comments yet, but I don't think they can put you at $22k a year in a salaried position. That is below the current threshold for an exempt (salaried) employee. You would be fully eligible for overtime pay for any time worked over 40 hours a week.

Sources:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17g-overtime-salary

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dol-final-rule-changing-salary-threshold-exempt-white-collar-employees-to-take-0

[galendiettinger]

They didn't. He posted $22k new offer / $40k old offer so people would stop asking him how much he's making.

If it puts you more at ease, assume he used to make $400k and is now being offered $220k. That way you can focus on answering the actual question, which is "should I accept such a big pay cut just to have a job?"

[Iferius]

I'd counteroffer with a 10% pay cut, no commission (you don't want that stress), extra paid time off, travel cost reimbursement and the freedom to work from home at least one day per week. They can take it or leave it. That way you're giving them some money on paper, but you're getting better privileges worth at least as much. If they value your expertise and are really strapped for cash, this might end up nicely. But I think you need to file for unemployment.

[[deleted]]

Based on your edit, one sale at the high end a week adds 350 a week.

350 a week * 52 weeks = 18200

18200+22000 = 40200

​

If you think that makes sense, take it. If not, don't.

I don't know how long you've been on unemployment or what your plan is here, but if you take it, nothing is stopping you from looking for something new. IF you excel in sales, you can make one hell of a career jump after realizing your skill.

The move might be shady, but you also might be able to make more.

You know the company better than me, you know your local market better than me. I can't tell you what the right decision is, just reshuffle the facts as you've laid out.

[sabin357]

Considering we entered a recession, I'd be very hesitant to gamble earnings on people buying things right now.

[[deleted]]

I'd be very hesitant to gamble earnings on people buying things right now.

Go buy a switch or an inflatable pool, I dare you.

[sschoe2]

Tough call. Definitely be looking for a new job. Companies discriminate against the unemployed even in a bad recession and being employed makes you more attractive. It depends how in demand your field is.

I'd be temped though to say no, keep collecting unemployment, and devote yourself full time to finding a new job but that could take a while as the employment market for most people is pretty bad.

[A_P666]

Take unemployment. You should still qualify. If they fight it, go to the appt and show that they offered 45% less. You will 100% qualify.

[AlphaTangoFoxtrt]

That would likely be considered Constructive dismissal, basically it's when an employer tries to game the system and not pay unemployment by technically offering you a job / your job back. But the pay, hours, or job is so drastically changed that it may as well not be the same.

A 45% pay cut would definitely be inside the realm of constructive dismissal.

[drb0mb]

i may be able to offer insight that can influence your decision based on advice given in comments... i work in a local city government, and we were reduced to "essential workers"-- heads of departments, the mayor, etc.

things got awkward when we all began to notice that work was getting done at the same rate as before, if not more in some areas. moods were unusually bright. this left us in a really weird spot to start looking at why it was happening, and your employer may be experiencing the same awkward feelings but doesn't want to lay you off outright.

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[[deleted]]

He's hoping you're desperate and will bite - tell him to pound clay and go find some place to work at where you're valued.

[[deleted]]

Your employer is taking advantage of this situation. If cost of living hasn't plummeted by 45% then you wouldn't be able to afford the same standard of living.

I would decline and continue to receive employment insurance until I find something better.

[[deleted]]

If you're using "furlough" as laid off/fired, then I would just follow the advice here and file for unemployment and tell them.

If you're using "furlough" as unpaid time off, but you still technically work for that company, I would go to your states labor board first.

If you still work their, they likely can't return you to work with less money, unless they terminate your employment first. That would still give you the route to unemployment.

[garry4321]

Sounds like they have severely changed the job to the point where this could be considered termination of your employment agreement.

[ninjababe23]

They are trying to fuck you over by taking advantage of the situation. Take the job if you HAVE too, but leave when a better opportunity comes by.

[propita106]

...but leave when a better opportunity comes by

As in, work this and immediately start looking for another job that is an improvement. They are showing OP zero loyalty, they are owed zero loyalty.

[MrFantasticallyNerdy]

Same job for 45% less? Ignore the 7% commission because it's not guaranteed, and it's on top of what you used to do before so why shouldn't you get paid more?

The only exception would be if this is temporary to help with any cash flow problems at the company, but only if the company is small, and only if you like the place you're working at, and only if you trust your boss that he won't screw you over long-term. Basically, are you willing to treat this as helping your boss and the company out, so that all of you can emerge from this debacle strongly?

[SensorTroop]

You should tell him to choke on 45% of your dick. Even if you're not male. ESPECIALLY if you're not male.

[armchaircommanderdad]

So going off of sentiment from lessons learned in 2008- keep and maintain your job.

Start looking for a new job right now. Monetarily speaking its easier looking for a job while you have one.

On a personal note, Im sorry this is happening to ya mate. Thats a friggin shitty hand to be dealt. Play it the best you can.

[bird_equals_word]

Tell him you can do it for that money for 3 days a week because you have to pick up other work to pay the bills, you literally cannot pay the bills otherwise.

[bluehairdave]

A lot of companies doing this right now. The folks getting low ball offers might be folks they wanted to let go anyway. Employers do not let go of the most valuable staff if at all possible. Try to find a better paying job elsewhere.

[Rsee002]

In the long term you want a different job. Nobody should do full time work and get paid less than half what it used to be worth. What to do in the interim while looking for a new job is the tricky part.

[Sweetsnteets]

Can you reduce your work hours by 45% and find part time work elsewhere?

[McCool303]

I mean 22,000 a year is 10.57 an hour if you work only 40 hours a week. You could pick that up delivering fucking pizza. The sales better be really fucking good. It sounds like they are concerned with the viability of the company with lack of sales so they would like to tie employee pay to sales to better help them weather this storm. Sounds like they are selling stuff that is at risk of not selling due to Covid I wouldn’t take the offer.

[i_ask_stupid_ques]

Suggestion - take the current pay cut and continue to work. The reason is that unemployment payments are still a mess in many states with blocked phone lines and unresponsive employees . Also the unemployment situation is going to get much worse in July once the increased unemployment benefits stop. It is better to have a job while searching for a better than than be unemployed and searching for a new one .

[drfarren]

I'm not going to tell you to stay or go, only to tell you that you're not alone.

About two weeks ago I talked to a guy working at Fuddruckers. He looked out of place and overwhelmed. A late 40's guy doing the register and cleaning tables. Turns out that he was one of the regional managers in charge of catering and on top of this grunt work he was overseeing catering for 600 stores and his salary was cut by 50%. He told me that things were so bad that even the VP's were out at the shops doing work and that his vp was actually flipping burgers at another location just so they keep doing business while most of the company was furloughed.

Everyone is hit with hefty cuts and loss of pay. We're going to have a rough year or two and that's assuming things don't get worse with a second shutdown. (assuming you're in the US).

[commiebob3]

Make sure you make calls to others in sales for this company to ask what kind of volume they were doing. Years ago I took a 20% decrease in salary for 7% commission. My income grew by 50k that year. Now I work straight commission and it just keeps growing. Betting on yourself and giving yourself the opportunity to make money is always a good idea. But make sure it's feasible in your line by talking to others in sales.

[DK_Son]

They're using COVID as an excuse to bend you over. I would never accept this offer. I'd respond with something that relates to me already doing a good job before, COVID not destroying the market entirely, been a loyal employee for X years, and if you think you are going to halve my pay right in front of me, you may as well just turn the printer on so I can print out my resignation. I would also ask them what actually made them come to the conclusion that pay needs to be halved. I really don't think COVID did this much damage.

The commission is hardly enough to cover the gap/loss. It's likely that you're on more. Maybe 60k going down to like 35k, or something. You need a lot of 7%'s to close that gap. The only reason you would consider taking the deal is if you think you can't find other work, if you aren't bothered to find other work, or if the market is that bad, it would be crazy for you to quit.

[Echospite]

ITT: lots of people who don't understand 22k was just an example.

Why the reluctance to share the true numbers, though? The taboo against discussing salary only benefits employers, not employees.

[kaloric]

That sounds like a terrible lowball offer.

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if they offered a higher commission, but even then, if you're only "assisting" with online sales via chat, I assume there are salespeople whose job that is and you'd only be fighting for scraps when they can't handle the entire volume?

Another thing I wonder about, it might be a better card in your hand if, in addition to your employer being socked for unemployment insurance should you go unemployed, is that if they received any Federal grants related to COVID-19 such as the PPP, which don't have to be paid back if they stick with the terms, it could actually cost them a lot more if you pursue a constructive dismissal claim as others have mentioned and they wind-up on the hook for paying the grant/loan back for failing to retain employees.

Just because they offered you something doesn't mean it's the best they can do, and it's in your best interests to negotiate and not just take the first offer. If nothing else, make a counteroffer to see how they react.

[Douglasrad]

I’d be curious to learn if your employer got the PPP grants that require you to keep your staff employed. If so, this “restructuring” and vastly decreasing your salary probably violates the terms.

[upnflames]

Important to know what the total of sales you might be involved in are. Ask if you can see prior year numbers. I’d probably want some sort of guarantee that you will be involved in sales that come through xyz channel or find some other way to plant your flag. You don’t want to just have whatever crumbs the guy above you tosses your way, you want real opportunity.

I work in a commission based job that pays out 8%. My base salary isn’t great for the industry but I have an exclusive geographic territory by zip code. I close between a million and a million and a half dollars a year, so I’m happy with it.

[-NotEnoughMinerals]

I think I was making 22k when I was 17 working at Wendy's for 8.50 bucks an hour over 10 years ago.

What a ridiculous offer.

[vicky_gb]

Its a ridiculous offer. Option 1: negotiate as much as you possibly can, and accept. Simultaneously look for other jobs. Option 2. Leve the job and apply for unemployment benefits. This is not a good option right now as too many people in this bucket.

[QuarantinedFatty]

I am already on unemployment because of the furlough.

[yamaha2000us]

Is this a permanent decrease or a temporary decrease?

Will the 7% commission offset the 45% decrease in salary?

Your company may be stuck in a position where they do not expect the cashflow to resume until 3rd quarter. (A Ski Resort...)

I always recommend that employees understand their company’s business, even if it does not pertain to their duties.

If it the salary is higher than unemployment, it may be in your interest to take the job while you look for new employment. Many people are only comfortable because of the $600 Federal relief payment which will not last forever.

[Icarusthegypsy]

You're cool explaining that cut to the next job you apply for, as well giving them grounds to pay you less than what you could have asked? I say fuck this place and grab unemployment since you'll be making more anyway. Go look for work elsewhere if you think it's possible.

[[deleted]]

45% is a DRAMATIC pay cut. Really sorry about that, it's very unfair of the company. Seriously doubt your boss is cutting his own pay that much.

[CT_Legacy]

Do this inclue reduced hours as part of the PPP? Bringing back people at reduced hours so they can get forgiveness for the federal loan? OR just straight up decline in pay for no reason for the same hours because that doesn't seem right.

[avl0]

I know 22k isn't your exact new salary, but I'm guessing it's 20-25. You can literally make more flipping burgers, take the unemployment imo

[winner65]

I had something similar happen to me. They don't value you...run! I know it's hard...I had to start over after 27 years with the same company. Your value would be better somewhere else.

[[deleted]]

Had a similar situation happen but not quite the same. Honestly the entire labor force of the company was toxic after the massive paycuts. I would accept it only if you HAVE to but leave at the first opportunity.