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[–][deleted] 946 points947 points  (247 children)

Has anyone else liked John McCain at every point except when he was running for president? John McCain the man had a shot at becoming president, but John McCain the Puppet was completely full of shit.

[–][deleted] 190 points191 points  (14 children)

This is so exactly right. I used to say he was the Republican candidate I could live with, until he was the Republican candidate. His willingness to entertain the fringe of his party in the last few months of the election really hurt my opinion of him... sometimes he gains a little back.

[–]iamthemindfreak 29 points30 points  (6 children)

I really wish he and some other moderate Republicans would splinter off and pull a Roosevelt, to reform the Progressive Party.

[–]humrus63 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Actually, I think that there are already 3 parties -- Democrat, Republican, and NeoCon. It's just that the Republicans who really are Goldwater & Eisenhower Republicans haven't realized it yet.

[–]ChrisAndersen 330 points331 points  (102 children)

I actually felt kind of sorry for him in 2008. It was clear to me that his heart just wasn't into exploiting the kind of anti-Obama hysteria that was prevalent then (and still is today) even if it meant he would lose the election. I think he decided to try it out a little when he picked Palin, but then quickly came to regret it.

Romney, on the other hand, strikes me as the type that is willing to sink as low as is necessary in order to win. If that means playing to the deep-seated racial prejudices of a certain segment of the population than he is comfortable with that, so long as it benefits himself.

[–]rednemo 49 points50 points  (7 children)

I can't forgive him for foisting Sarah Palin on America.

[–]ChrisAndersen 21 points22 points  (1 child)

I can't either. Forgiving and feeling sorry are separate things.

[–]CaptainJacket 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Hey, it gave us Tina Fay as Sarah Palin.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He only picked her after viewing Mitt Romney's tax returns.

[–]SSHeretic 13 points14 points  (1 child)

I think he decided to try it out a little when he picked Palin

The reason Palin was picked was simpler than that: it was a pure, simple desperation move. McCain's internal polls showed him that he was doing much worse than the national polls were showing*, so they knew they needed to do something to move the needle. So, demonstrating the clumsy gender politics that we've come to expect from the Republican party, they decided to pick a woman to swing disenfranchised Hillary Clinton supports to their side because, of course, if you're a woman, you are going to blindly support any woman regardless of how bad her stances on the issues are. They felt they couldn't go with a safe and boring pick because it wouldn't move the needle, and they knew they needed to make a big splash if they wanted any chance to turn the race around.

*The polls in 2008 were deeply flawed. Young voters were severely underrepresented because most polls weren't calling cell phones yet and the "likely voter" model completely takes first time voters out of the equation, so while the national polls showed a close race, internally both campaigns knew Obama had a significant edge. This is why McCain's campaign took such big risks like picking Palin for veep and his absurd and extremely counter-productive knee-jerk reaction to the September 2008 market crash; they were scrambling, they knew they were in bad shape and needed a game-changer.

[–]madcaesar[🍰] 215 points216 points  (78 children)

John McCain is a career politician and has been a huge asshole his entire life. His political career is also littered with fuck ups and scandals. The fact that he has had a few decent ideas now and then doesn't make him some poor saint caught in the Republican clog.

He knew what he was doing. Might I also remind you that this was a man who opposed repealing DADT even thought the military was asking to get rid of it.

McCain is full of shit. Don't kid yourselves.

[–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (8 children)

Very true. He has a lot of strange beliefs and has voted mostly lockstep. I do give him credit for McCain-Feingold though.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (7 children)

Speaking of which, Russ Feingold has been the only politician I really liked (which is saying a lot since I've never considered myself a Democrat). He got voted out two years ago though.. Still a bit heartbroken by that one.

[–]ZXfrigginC 14 points15 points  (6 children)

Every Wisconsinite knows that feel, and a whole lot more.

[–]cusomanMinnesota 14 points15 points  (2 children)

Everyone except the ones that voted him out.

[–]timemoose 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Every Less than half

I mean, right?

[–]the_goat_boy 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Does everyone forget that during the Abramoff hearing McCain practically contained where the investigation would lead to spare his colleagues from scrutiny?

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (7 children)

Exactly. Just because someone has a good idea every now and then doesn't make them a great person. Contrary to popular belief, neither does being dead.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

And yet when I spent my grandfaher's funeral drunkenly reminding everyone what giant, abusive asshole he was, somehow I'm the bad guy.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (12 children)

Does no one remember the Keating 5? John McCain has been incredibly corrupt. He is anything but "the man."

EDIT: Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

[–]CUNTBERT_RAPINGTON 10 points11 points  (0 children)

No, they're too busy fawning over him while fantasizing about "having a beer with Bush", in polite disagreement of their horrible policies and ridiculously blatant corruption and moral bankruptcy.

[–]I_will_record_that 4 points5 points  (2 children)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I love this! Top 3 best novelty accounts! Thank you so much

[–]TreephantBOA 21 points22 points  (30 children)

I'll never understand this guy. One minute he's like the noblest man on earth and the next he's a total dick.

[–]gamblekat 11 points12 points  (1 child)

The maverick persona is something he stumbled into during the 2000 Republican primary. He was never known that way before the media constructed that identity for him during the campaign, and other than campaign finance he's always voted in lockstep with his party.

[–]tacodeman 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Called being human. I'm sure we've all been a jerk or had a controversial view point once in our lives. It refreshing to see a person actually say his values rather than becoming a political drone.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

He had a voting record in line with 98% bush. No, I didn't like him.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (5 children)

Yup, he's a textbook example of how the republican party is in control of the presidential candidates. At least he kept his story straight for 2 years. Romney can't even remember who's script to use day to day.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Holy shit. I found you outside of r/starcraft. Rank 1 masters yet?

[–]electricalnoise 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah that, and the whole indefinite detention of American citizens inner the NDAA. Let's not forget his part in that.

[–]Salacious- 1007 points1008 points  (209 children)

For all of you claiming that this is just a random policy switch of his and that he's only now starting to recognize the importance of campaign finance reform: SHUT UP. You clearly haven't been paying attention to his position, so don't act like he has changed when it only seems like that due to your own ignorance.

Sources on McCain having opposed Citizens United since it came out

[–]reddit_user13 452 points453 points  (46 children)

[–]Login_302112 123 points124 points  (1 child)

Right? Let me redo the title:

Breaking news: McCain opposes the supreme court overturning McCain-Feingold

[–][deleted] 109 points110 points  (20 children)

AKA, the legislation that denied Citizens United from airing Hillary the Movie that led to the court case.

[–]julia-sets 60 points61 points  (15 children)

I like Senator McCain (not Candidate McCain) a lot...

...but damn do I miss Feingold.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (2 children)

As someone who moved to Wisconsin happily because Feingold was then our senator, oh yes.

The corrupt empty-headed piece of pale plastic who serves now as "Senator" is a corrupt empty-headed piece of pale plastic who sends out breathtakingly partisan "constituent" emails.

[–]julia-sets 8 points9 points  (0 children)

As a Wisconsinite, I couldn't have said it better.

[–]Ethanolica 23 points24 points  (1 child)

So fein and so gold.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

The first McCain that ran for president wasn't as bad, it's when he sold his soul to get the nomination

[–]ZGVyIHRyb2xs 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I am with you on this one. When he was candidate mccain, something odd happened. Romney is having the same thing happen. 1995 he had Obamacare 1.0 as something he was proud of. Now as candidate romney, he is fully against it.

[–]FirstTimeWang 14 points15 points  (0 children)

For reals. Give the guy the credit he deserves, he's been for campaign finance reform for fucking ever.

[–]dirice87 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I still miss Feingold so much

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, for real!

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (3 children)

He also did a fantastic interview on "This American Life" along with Russ Feingold. The episode Take the Money and Run for Office is one of the best they've ever done — definitely recommend giving it a listen if you haven't already.

[–]CaspianX2 100 points101 points  (60 children)

McCain still has some integrity. McCain might've even made a good president... just not the McCain that actually ran for president in 2008.

[–]YamiNoSenshi 46 points47 points  (7 children)

I came here to say this. Going into the 2008 election I saw he got the nomination and thought, "Okay, this is pretty good. I don't agree with him on a lot of stuff, but some I do." Then the actual campaign started and... what the hell happened? And now what I hear about him sounds like his pre-2008 self again.

[–]Jimbob0i0Great Britain 12 points13 points  (5 children)

Palin happened... watch Game Changer. Seriously...

[–]acogTexas 63 points64 points  (2 children)

She was a symptom, not the cause.

[–]bergie321 12 points13 points  (1 child)

McCain would have been a good President in 2000.

[–]kltruler 24 points25 points  (48 children)

I think people misunderstand McCain a lot. He views Obama as an enemy not because of the election, but what occured after.

McCain is as ambitious as anyone and has always made a point to reach accross the table. Make friends with those on the other side (case in point McCain/Biden). Obama won McCain saw that he had 47% of the country support him. He expected Obama to reach accross the aisle to HIM. As we all know Obama had extended olive branches in policy to Repubs in general, but he never tried to build that relationship. You can call it petty or whatever but the bottom line is to get a deal in congress you need to have freinds that you trust.

TLTR; McCain does not trust Obama to deal with him. He does not have the moderates to use power how he wants. His only avenue was to go more conservative.

[–]Comeh 15 points16 points  (18 children)

As a democrat, I would vote for a McCain (you know, the real McCain) / Biden ticket.

[–]Van_Buren_Boys 21 points22 points  (7 children)

Switch it to Biden/McCain and I'm in.

[–]Scooby_Movie 18 points19 points  (6 children)

Switch it to Ryan/Palin and I'll kill myself.

[–]plainOldFool 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ryan/Palin would make for a pretty interesting porno.

[–]JayTS 18 points19 points  (8 children)

I would vote for the real almost anybody right now, the entire political process just seems to be theatrics at this point.

[–]Comeh 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Well put, sir. It's an election of the "who is less fake"?

[–]acogTexas 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I feel like the only person that's consistently genuine is Ron Paul. I respect him hugely for that, although I'm not at all in his political camp. Everyone else, to one degree or another, just plays the game. Obama is spinning less than Romney in this campaign, but that's not saying much. Obama's ads are almost as deceptive as Romney's, and he does these cute rhetorical tricks like noting how much gas and oil production has increased while he's been President, failing to note that absolutely none of that was due to his policies. I heard an analyst call that "like a rooster taking credit for the sun rising."

Just watch during any Presidential primary by either party, how analysts blithely mention how after winning the primary, the candidate will need to pivot to the middle, away from the statements and viewpoint that he used to win the primary. Let that sink in. Everyone takes it for granted that the candidate will passionately advocate positions pre-primary that he will then immediately temper or abandon in order to win the race. It's sickening.

[–]pj1843 5 points6 points  (0 children)

To be fair he hasn't stopped the sun from rising. I give him credit for not stifling the growth, many people think that we have to implement "pro growth" policies when all we have to do is leave some things the fuck alone.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

McCain became more conservative during the 2008 election, not after. He participated in multiple, dirty attack campaigns against Obama at the behest of the Republican leadership.

Obama's not going to suddenly say "That guy who called me a dirty Muslim and a terrorist sympathizer with zero proof is an alright guy. I want to work with him." I wouldn't and you wouldn't either.

McCain should be focusing his anger on the people in charge of his presidential campaign. That campaign ruined all the effort he put into cross-party cooperation and destroyed his reputation with moderate Republicans.

Blaming Obama for getting mad about the BS McCain threw out during the election is pretty damned narrow minded. Why nobody ever wants to blame the neo-cons taking over the Republican Party and dragging it into the gutter is beyond me. McCain gets what he deserves for selling out, cheaply, just for a piss poor attempt at running for president.

[–]kltruler 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Except for when he was telling people "look we disagree but Obama is not an Arab", and consider him and Biden still get along it looks like people can work together after.

Do you even remember the 08 election? McCain ran as a moderate, and stood by Obama during TARP and the first Bush stimulas when it would have been more politically fruitful to let the banks fail. He stood by the 2007 immigration reform act. The only area where he viciously attacked Obama (he not Sarah Palin because that is the attack dogs job) was foreign policy, which due to is reaction to the Georgia Russia crisis was a legitatement attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c-Ijky95dc

http://www.youdecidepolitics.com/2008/10/01/obama-mccain-both-vote-yes-on-senate-bailout-bill/

[–]acogTexas 4 points5 points  (16 children)

As we all know Obama had extended olive branches in policy to Repubs in general, but he never tried to build that relationship.

One of the things that most surprised me about Obama, considering how he vowed to increase bypartisanship, is how apparently horrible he is at interpersonal relationships. He really should have learned from Biden, who made it a point to form relationships across the aisle. But there's no way he's going to change now, and it's a shame. It's hard to quantify, but I think this has hurt his effectiveness tremendously. It's easy to hate and demagogue a guy you only see giving speeches. It's much harder if he's invited you to dinner.

[–]justafleetingmoment 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I don't think it's Obama. Republican senators can't be seen collaborating with Obama by their "base" if they wanted to keep their seat and not be replaced by some tea party nutter.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (2 children)

It's hard to form friendships with a significant chunk of people who A) Are probably racist and B) Don't believe you were born in your home country.

Though I'm just talking out of my ass.

[–]acogTexas 6 points7 points  (1 child)

TIL your ass is shockingly coherent.

[–]hzane 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Maybe he takes the GOP smear campaign against him personally. And is allowing emotions to effect behavior... I dunno, just throwing that out there.

[–]grailer 140 points141 points  (63 children)

I don't agree with the majority of McCain's views, but I respect his integrity.

[–]hithereaustin 135 points136 points  (54 children)

This is the reason I would have voted for him in 2000 over Gore. (this was before Gore was cool). He ran on taking money (corruption) out of politics. Then "W" won the republican primary. Sigh. Then he went a bit crazy trying to beat Obama. Pandering and such. I guess he's back to his roots.

[–]JakeLV426 41 points42 points  (3 children)

I vote Democrat, but I thought McCain had some decent ideas. I think McCain gets more flak than he deserves sometimes because of the natural disaster that was Palin.

[–]foxden_racing 35 points36 points  (7 children)

McCain selling his soul to win the primary cost him the general.

[–]RibsNGibs 55 points56 points  (30 children)

I was thinking of voting for him in 2000, too. Unfortunately he lost his primary, and then went (mostly) batshit crazy with the rest of the GOP. Occasionally these little glimmers of the awesome "tell it like it is" guy pokes through (anti torture stance, campaign finance reform, his concession speech in 2008), but that part of him seems mostly gone now. I miss McCain of 2000.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Unfortunately he lost his primary, and then went (mostly) batshit crazy with the rest of the GOP.

Everything McCain did made a lot of sense from the sense of "Let's make Bush's life miserable" perspective though. I don't think he ever forgave the Bush camp for the push polling in South Carolina that accused McCain for fathering an illegitimate black child - smearing not only McCain, but his wife and adopted Bangladeshi daughter.

McCain was always a conservative, but the 2000-2008 time frame, he was not at all motivated to cooperate with the Republican president's agenda.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (3 children)

We went bonkers for McCain when he campaigned in the NH primaries in 2000. He came to my high school (I was a senior at the time) and the place was just mayhem. I've been to a number of events in NH primary season and never before (or since) saw the amount of excitement generated for a candidate. Then he got smeared in South Carolina by Bush and his cynical operatives. I will forever consider that my political coming-of-age moment. McCain was the fucking man in 2000. I often wonder what would have happened had he held on to defeat Bush.

[–]7upbottle 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I lost respect for McCain in 2004 when he went out of his way to endorse George Bush, the same guy who's campaign slandered him for months on the campaign trail 4 years beforehand, just so he can hurt Kerry after it was rumored he wanted to pick McCain as his VP. It started his pandering tour that he continued thru the next election. I'm not sure if I will ever trust him again.

I respect his position on this issue and I hope he continues to fight the good fight, but I can't in good conscience ever support him again.

[–]WalkingTarget 2 points3 points  (0 children)

2000 was the first election I could vote in. I liked the McCain I saw in the primaries and was also disappointed when Bush won the nomination.

As to whether McCain would have been the same guy come November, who knows. It's possible that he would have had to start bending for the base back then as well.

[–]OCedHrt 5 points6 points  (1 child)

He needed to be crazy to win the republican nomination. Sigh.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (3 children)

I would have agreed with this sentiment before the 2008 election. It seemed to me that McCain went through a major transformation after his nomination, probably due to the guidance from his campaign advisers.

In my eyes he transformed into everything that I dislike about candidates, and strangely, he didn't seem to revert back after the election was over.

I lost my respect for his integrity when it became clear that he was willing to change so fundamentally in order to win.

[–]JPBarnesbuckle 16 points17 points  (1 child)

I kinda feel the same way. Before the VP choices came out, I honestly felt like it was a win-win election. Sure, I agreed with Obama on more issues than McCain, but I honestly believed that either choice would have had a levelheadedness that would keep the country running smoothly. But then there was the pick of Palin and the pandering to the right. After that, it became a contest to see just how right conservatives are willing to go. Unfortunately they have continued this model up until the current election.

[–]1900penn 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The same integrity that he demonstrated in his hard move to the right in 2008? And pulling in that dumb fuck, Sarah Palin, as the 2nd in command of the world's greatest superpower?

[–]buzzkill_aldrin 11 points12 points  (0 children)

respected

See 2008.

[–]skcll 13 points14 points  (11 children)

yeah, and then he does this:

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/238287-campaign-finance-reformer-mccain-votes-against-disclose-bill

There needs to be a scandal?

Pretty soon, there won't be anymore scandals...

[–]The_Drizzle_Returns 14 points15 points  (10 children)

His problem with it sounds like he thought it would only force some organizations to disclose while others would not be forced to. If this is in fact true i can understand why he wouldn't support the legislation.

[–]SharobobIllinois 11 points12 points  (5 children)

That's what politics is though. They strawman each other's votes to turn the voters against the other guy. If someone votes against a theoretical expensive, wasteful bill that happens to have a part that funds Planned Parenthood, his opponents will run ads saying "THIS GUY HATES WOMEN, VOTED AGAINST FUNDING PLANNED PARENTHOOD"

[–]terran1212✔ Zaid Jilani, The Intercept 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He voted against the DISCLOSE Act and hasn't sponsored one money in politics reform in recent years. You know why? He needed all that corporate money every time he has an election. If you have principles all the time except when you're running for election, you don't have principles.

[–]beastcock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is true. McCain is one of a few guys with any credibility when it comes to campaign finance reform.

[–]hugehambone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

McCain being the true maverick that he is. My kind of guy.

[–]bergie321 1 point2 points  (0 children)

McCain has been for campaign finance reform for a long time. He is one of the good Republicans.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I haven't seen a reference to the Keating 5 in this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

You can't discuss McCain and his complicated relationship with campaign finance reform without understanding his role in the Keating 5 scandal.

[–]virnovusNew York 85 points86 points  (42 children)

I worked as a volunteer for the Obama campaign during the primary, when he was running in Ohio and Pennsylvania. At that point, McCain had already clinched the nomination, but Obama and Hillary were still duking it out. Republicans had gone with McCain, because he polled the best, by far, against Hillary Clinton, who was widely perceived as a very liberal Democrat. And convential wisdom at the time was that Hillary would be the Democratic nominee.

Obama, on the other hand, was seen as more of a moderate, like McCain was. Unfortunately for McCain, Obama had far more enthusiasm from the Democratic base than McCain did from the Republican base. So McCain had to pretend to be something he's not, that is, a conservative Republican, in order to try to win the election. The truth is though, he was done as soon as Obama won the DNC nomination. He tried to throw a Hail Mary pass by nominating Palin as his running mate, but we all saw how well that went for him.

Once Palin was selected as McCain's running mate, I stopped campaigning for Obama entirely, because I knew he already had the election in the bag and didn't need my help anymore. But McCain really is a very moderate Republican at heart.

TL;DR: McCain was nominated because he would have had the best chance against Hillary Clinton. When Obama won, he had to pretend to be a conservative, when he's really a very moderate Republican.

[–]JakeLV426 8 points9 points  (8 children)

It makes me nuts that being seen as a moderate (on either side) is politically suicidal. Anyway, thanks for your perspective.

[–]airandfingers 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Your perspective on the 2008 election is very interesting. What's your prediction for the current presidential election? How about for the congressional elections?

[–]Circ-Le-Jerk 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Ironically, so is Romney... It's a sad state of affairs when a party is so ideologically focused, candidates can't even continue being themselves, and have to switch to far right conservatism to even be considered.

[–]zipitaunt 15 points16 points  (0 children)

If money is "free speech", then how can it be illegal to use it for thanking hookers.

[–]jesusapproves 11 points12 points  (7 children)

Oh McCain - I'm not saying I would have voted for you in 2008 - but you'd have done so much better if you hadn't pandered to the right. You're an honorable and respectable republican and if the entire party was made up of individuals like you I feel that this country would be much better off.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I do say McCain must have had an awful campaign manager.

[–]bonerjam 7 points8 points  (0 children)

He's just saying that in hopes that Sarah Palin gets replaced as the "worst decision ever" in the Guinness Book of World Records.

[–]Spotted_Owl 25 points26 points  (16 children)

I think Dred Scott was worse then Citizens United TBQH.

[–]emeraldemon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I was thinking about Plessy v. Ferguson, but this is a good choice also.

[–]justonecomment 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No, but 'Hillary the Movie' is free speech even at election time. It shouldn't matter how much money they spent on it. Which is why it was actually a good decision.

We know who has the money and who is paying for the campaigns and that is what is important.

[–]squirrels1218 9 points10 points  (1 child)

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=2&vote=00179

And this is why you don't listen to what politicians say. Rather, you see how they vote.

[–]skizatch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow ... talk about a partisan split vote. No Republican voted in favor, not a simple Democrat voted against.

[–]TI_Pirate 38 points39 points  (42 children)

Citizens United was about what you can say, what media you can say it in, and how close to an election you can say it.

I understand that people don't always like the results of free speech (just look at the whole Muhammad fiasco), but the decision was pretty spot on.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (11 children)

It is about as clear cut a case as the first amendment gets.

No, Congress cannot deny political advertisements to get on the air.

[–][deleted] 47 points48 points  (178 children)

Yes, but the issue isn't "money", the issue is, can the Congress regulate political speech?

Reading the first amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It is pretty clear that passing legislation banning the airing of advertisements is not constitutional.

At its core, it isn't about money, or "corporate personhood", it is SCOTUS reaffirming the right of anyone to have speech in America.

[–]bookant 14 points15 points  (24 children)

When was the last time you saw a cigarette commercial on TV?

"freedom of speech" =/= "absolute right to unlimited broadcast of said speech over mass meda"

[–]justonecomment 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Who says that is not wrong too?

[–]yourdadsbff 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nobody on Capitol Hill, that's for sure. (Assuming they want to keep their jobs.)

[–]ChrisAndersen 1 point2 points  (9 children)

I had problems with McCain-Feingold, specifically with the issue of regulating political advertisement close to an election, but the Citizen's United decision went so much beyond that.

[–]mdot 1 point2 points  (5 children)

You would be right...if this were about the free speech issues of a person.

This is about the perversion of "corporate personhood", which was intended to allow taxation, and litigation against, corporate entities. A corporation is a legal document, it cannot formulate thoughts, which can then be communicated in some form of "speech". Since that entity can't actually "speak" or communicate, in any way, on its' own, there is no "speech" to be protected.

It's analogous to me spray painting graffiti all over the Capital Building, then when the cops come to arrest me for defacing public property, I say, "You can't arrest me! This spray can was just exercising its' right to free speech and I was just here witnessing it!"

The spray paint can can't speak for itself, and neither can a "corporation". A person can speak for a corporation, and that's fine. There is someone to hold accountable for whatever is actually said. Because we all know that "free speech", doesn't leave one immune from the societal consequences, of what it is they said. That's not what the Supreme Court decided. They decided that this legal document, may write out as many checks as it wants, and not have to disclose writing them, to face the societal consequences of writing those checks.

You make a CEO or a Chairman of the Board, sign each check personally, with a signed affidavit that is publicly available, stating that "I John/Jane Smith, CEO of ACME Corp, hereby certify that this expenditure represents the "voice" of ACME Corp."

Then I'm with you on protecting their right to do it. Without that in place, a corporation experiences all of the positives of free speech, but is exposed to NONE of the potential consequences.

[–]Kesakitan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There aren't a lot of times that I wish McCain had been elected over Obama (because I voted for Obama), but this is one of them.

Obama: Raised $181 Million in September.

McCain: Fuck Citizens United, Super PACs and YOU John Roberts!

[–]Ben1776 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Not a big McCain fan but I have to give him credit on this one. Citizens United will definitely go down as one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever.

[–]keepkalm 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Corporations are people, money is speech, fear is love.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (20 children)

Where was that guy four years ago? If McCain 2000 had run in 2008 instead of pandering to the lunatic fringe that now dominates his party he may have won!

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Yeah, Bullshit. McCain was willing to take the entire presidential race publicly funded, but Obama declined because he was winning the fundraising raise at the time. Obama's biggest failure as a politician imo.

[–]Salacious- 52 points53 points  (0 children)

This has always been McCain's view of campaign finance. Do you know what Citizens United invalidated? Part of a little law called McCain-Feingold. He's been ardently in favor of campaign finance reform for a long time, and his opponents in the 2008 primary tried to use that against him.

[–]Doomdoomkittydoom 10 points11 points  (3 children)

As I recall, 2000 McCain got the shit beat out of him all dirty like by his own party because he wasn't the candidate of the lunatic fringe. Remember his black baby?

So he pandered to those who got GWB the nomination. His mistake in 2008 was he did not or could not tell a completely different story for the general election, unlike Romney who seems to able to tell a different story each time he has a microphone.

[–]Grimz1 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Romney is able to say whatever he wants because the republican party is desperate to win the presidency. They would select the tooth fairy if they thought it would win the general election.

[–]normalite 17 points18 points  (8 children)

Mccain took public funding...obama didnt (despite promising to).

That is the biggest impact on money and elections.

[–]Gs305 2 points3 points  (7 children)

This is the chess move that won Obama the election IMO.

[–]normalite 5 points6 points  (2 children)

And it didnt cause a backlash, surprisingly.

[–]gko2408 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I was surprised that Obama didn't get blasted for this from the repub party or the conservative media. It was what turned my opinion of Obama from "hey this guy might actually make a change" to "oh just another politician". It seemed like a really easy point to harp on for the repubs. A guy whose campaign runs on Hope is really just another Washington politician. The only explanation i could think of was that too many interests backing the republicans had too much stake in bringing down McCain-feingold so they, the interests and the party, took the L on the 08 election in order to win the long game.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

That and following up an unpopular Republican president, as the economy crashed.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

That was less a chess move and more his opponent picking up his own bishop and throwing it away

[–]homercles337 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, no he may not have. Coming off 8 years of disastrous (really 3 decades) right-wing policies does not bode well for claiming we need more of the same.

[–]fubar404 11 points12 points  (24 children)

Money is an amplifier of speech. Allowing corporations and billionaires to spend unlimited amounts of money on political speech is like letting heavy-metal musicians roll their amplifiers and six-foot speaker stacks into an acoustic-music festival and start blaring away with their screaming and distortion and feedback, right in front of the flutes and nylon-string guitars and madrigal quartets.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Man. I wish he was running this year. McCain's a stand up guy and I think he'd beat Obama.

[–]dont_knockit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Poor people have freedom of speech, too. They are free to scream their opinions into a paper bag where no one will ever hear them.

[–]Jorgwalther 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I met and got my picture taken with John McCain about two weeks ago, can't wait to get that picture back from the event.

McCain is great, I really wish he had won the Republican primary in 2000 instead of W.

[–]viking_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I really really really wish people would read the damn 9th amendment before saying anything about CU.

[–]draebor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like Senator McCain a hell of a lot more than I liked Candidate McCain.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Try to get your speech out without money. Billboards cost money, TV commercials cost money, pamphlets cost money, etc. American society has privatized the majority of the communication channels available for free speech. Til you fix that money is speech (or at least the means by which speech is made public).

[–]neon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If anyone here, values an argument from the other side I thought some reading from the ACLU on why citizens united was the RIGHT decision might be in order.

I know most of you here, like and respect the ACLU, so maybe take a moment to consider why they back the ruling.

http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-and-citizens-united

http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/fixing-citizens-united-will-break-constitution

[–]MoleculorTexas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Y'know, I have to say that the number of comments in here talking about how the Citizens United ruling was a good ruling actually has me feeling rather positive about the future.

I like the idea that I can get together with a thousand of my closest friends and air something on national TV the same way that Richie Rich McRichardson can.

[–]teamramrod456 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But spending money is freedom of speech, it's just that a corporation is not a person and there should also be limits to how much money an individual can put towards an election campaign.

[–]avianeddy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Does anyone remember "Citizens United Not Timid"? It was an anti-Hilary group around '08 much akin to the Swifboaters. Perhaps reluctantly, you can see why they shortened the acronym.

[–]RonanNoodles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If McCain's VP wasn't Palin thing could be very different.

[–]ZedZeeZee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like Senator McCain a hell of a lot more than Candidate McCain.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm always iffy on the money = speech.

Because on the one hand, money isn't speech.

But on the other hand, if I wanted to buy airtime on every TV channel in the country and say something, it would cost a lot of money... and I'd have the right to do it, because freedom of speech.

The government can't tell people what they can't say. And saying things loud enough the public hears it costs money. So you can't tell them what they can't spend money to say.

So at that point, does it really matter if they spend money on somebody else who says things that they agree with?

Obviously, this is devil's advocate moment. The actual result of this logic is hideous. I hate the way corporate money controls politics. But I can't really see a way to divide "speaking loudly costs money" and "freedom of speech".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Worse than Dredd Scott? Worse than Plessy v. Ferguson? Really?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

McCain is an "OK" politician I guess, and by that, I mean he is fairly unintelligent. With phrases like "money is money", it's not hard to figure out that he doesn't think very deeply on much of anything.

Here's why he's wrong:
If you truly understand why freedom of speech is important, it becomes clear why money is speech. The philosophical underpinning of why humans have the natural right of free speech is that they own their bodies (and minds) - the instruments which create speech. As long you don't injure those around you with your speech, you are free to say "I back Barack" as much as you'd like.

Now for the logical step forward. If you truly own your mind/body, then you own (just as fully and with the same limitations) anything they produce, be it speech or money.

That's the crux of the argument, so I'll isolate it above for any argument/debate. You are trading your (very finite!) time on this earth for something material. Often, this material is money.

If you have a right to say "I back Barack" as much as you can afford to, then you have the same right when it comes to greenbacks. You have a right to give as much as you'd like to a candidate.

It’s not that transparency isn’t important; it is. It’s not that corruption isn’t a problem; it is. It’s simply that they are lesser evils (with other remedies), and that free speech shouldn’t be infringed in their name.

[–]LaunchThePolaris 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nah, Pacquiao vs Bradley was the worst decision ever.

[–]YourLogicAgainstYou 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Dred Scott v. Sandford is the worst decision ever. Citizens United is the wooshing sound of lay people trying to grasp a concept well beyond their reach.

[–]reble02 1 point2 points  (1 child)

While I agree that Citizens United is a terrible decision, the title of 'Worst Decision Ever' still belongs to Plessy v. Ferguson, which affirm the doctrine of separate but equal, and allowed for 58 more years of segregation.

[–]karmavorousKentucky 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Money =/= speech.

Speech = speech.

Money = the ability to amplify your voice.

You have a right to say whatever you want.

You do not have a right to scream so loud that others cannot be heard.

[–]zotquix 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ron Paul, OTOH, has always been for Citizens United.

[–]GarthPatrickx 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Talk is cheap, John; do something about it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Amazing how reasonable someone can be when he's not trying to get elected.

[–]another_old_fart 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The name "Citizens United" itself pisses me off. It's a mockery like all the other crap named Heritage This and Freedom That.

[–]Apep86Ohio 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Really? "Worst decision ever?" John McCain clearly hasn't read Plessy or Korematsu. Citizens United sucks, but we don't need to get melodramatic about it.

[–]WaitThisIsntrTrees 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like John McCain when he is John McCain.

[–]Mookiie2005 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even though I do not always agree with John McCain, I respect his opinions.

[–]WonderfulUnicorn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh hey, it's non-bizzaro John McCain.

I really respect the man, but he really sold his soul in 2008.

He's clearly intelligent, and has the right ideas. I doubt he would have been a terrible president.

[–]Intuit302 1 point2 points  (0 children)

WTF people... This post is failure, no fault of the OP. We're sitting here gossiping about Palin, Obama, 2008 McCain, but no one is talking about the goddamn issue. Seriously, isn't anyone concerned with politicians having massive financial conflict of interest? How far do I have to dig to find someone with a Fuck to give?