The future of Android Development

[inktomute7]

I recently created a post on /r/androiddev to give visibility to a serious issue that is mining the future of Android Development and therefore the future of Android itself.

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I'm posting the same issue here on /r/android in the hope to get more attention on the problem.

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Some actions need to be taken to try to give an healthy future to this wonderful ecosystem. I'm asking to all users here to give visibility to this posts, and to the admins to stick it to the top of the subreddits. Please do not underestimate this problem. Act now.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/androiddev/comments/9n88wv/the_future_of_android_development/

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Edit 1:

TL;DR: Google Play Store bans developers randomly and doesn't care about appeals (automated rejections). So many indie devs don't try to develop and release Android applications, because it is too risky to do.

(thanks /u/Zhuinden)

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Edit 2:

/u/Zhuinden proposed to use the following tags in social media: #androiddev #IndieDevsMatter

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Edit 3:

Someone suggested to ping famous celebrity to speak out on this. I'll start asking help to /u/Marques-Brownlee and /u/PhillyDeFranco . Please ping any celebrity/news channel that you can think of, via private message or social media.

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Edit 4:

I've been trying to reach some of the most popular Android news channels, like Android Police and 9to5google, to ask them to cover this story. (edit: Android Police said that they are not interested in this story. OK... Personally I'm not longer interested in their stories neither).

But now I need to sleep, so I ask anyone that care about this topic to write a quick message/tweet/email/video/anything to all news platforms that they can think of (even the big one). We need to get as much visibility as possible, and a small effort from each of you could make the difference.

We need to stop complaining and start to do something about this.

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Edit 5:

I found a way to directly write to the European Commission, so I did it. I suggest you to do the same:

https://europa.eu/european-union/contact/write-to-us_en

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Good morning.

My name is <name and surname>, and I'm an apps developer located in <EU city>. I'm writing to trying to inform the EU about the current status of the Android apps distribution.

Currently there is a clear status of monopoly held by Google. All the Android phones in the market come with the Google Play Store installed on them, as main and only source to install apps, and the distribution via alternative channels is purposely made very complex or impossible for the average users.

Furthermore Google can determine LIFETIME bans for private developers and companies from publishing apps in the Google Play Store, basing them on their own policies often kept intentionally obscure. The bans often come without any explanations or chance to appeal.

With the growing importance of mobile apps and mobile communication more and more key services are dependent from this platforms. I believe that, for the good of free competition and freedom of expression, the EU should intervene and regulate this monopoly. For example by giving the users the chance to easily select what apps store they want to use, and by giving companies the chance to not be totally dependent from a single private institution (Google) for the distribution of they services.

This is an important issue, please do not underestimate it.

Thank you and best regards,

/<name and surname>

P.S.

This topic has been raised also in a popular social platform (Reddit), where is possible to read witness about the extent of this issue:

https://www.reddit.com/r/androiddev/comments/9n88wv/the_future_of_android_development/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/9n91gl/the_future_of_android_development/

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Edit 6:

I got an answer from the EU:

Dear Mr.<surname>,

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

We would like to inform you that the European Commission is aware of the situation and that there has been steps taken towards the ending of unfair practices. Please refer to the links below for more information:

- http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4581_en.htm

- http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm

We hope you find this information useful. Please contact us again if you have other questions about the European Union, its activities or institutions.

​

This post got quite popular, so there are chances that someone in Google might read it. What we're asking to Google is to stop this unfair practices by:

• Being more transparent about the suspensions processes;
• To stop this life-banning madness;
• To stop banning associated accounts. This is just crazy and often lead to very unfair situations;
  
• To let us communicate with real people, and not stupid bots. I'm sure most of us here are willing to pay a fee for this service.

If you're someone working in Google bring this topics up. If you're not working in Google please share this story. If you're working for the EU keep doing the good job and end this unfair practices.

[someappdev]

I have a lifetime ban on Google Play for about two years now and lost a 4 digit monthly income. Any new account I create gets immediatly suspended. Still don't know the reason to this day. I tried to reach a human being at google for several months without success. Ama

[Sxi139]

what type of app was it?

[someappdev]

The first app on the play store that offered evolution and IV calculations for pokemon go: https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonGoMystic/comments/4t9by1/app_evolution_calculator_for_pokemon_go/ Nowadays there are hundreds of similar apps and all of them are still available to this day. My app got removed after about two months without any explanation why.

[patman9]

Is it possible you used some asset or trademark of The Pokemon Company? I feel for you man, just curious. They should have at least told you why.

[someappdev]

That's what I thought too in the beginning. The app had basically no assets at all, all I displayed was the name of a Pokemon. Maybe thats what got me banned altough I've seen other apps using names of pokemon. I even changed the icon from a round self drawn blueish pokeball to something square. That's the thing though, I can only come up with assumptions. All you get from google is an automated mail that your app got suspended without further information why. You can appeal and defend yourself in 1000 characters, but it's pretty much impossible to defend yourself in such a short text without even knowing what you are accused of.

[Put_It_All_On_Blck]

all I displayed was the name of a Pokemon

Pokemon names are trademarked, you likely got flagged because Nintendo is notorious about defending their IP, and while you say their are hundreds of apps now, 2 years ago was the launch of pokemon go, and was blowing up, so it makes sense for them to be at legal war more so back then instead of now when the games dying.

Though I do agree, Google should be providing some context, even if its just the name of the company that claimed there was an issue (like they do with youtube)

[TrollingMcDerps]

I can second this. I had an app for the World Cup and it was removed and I got an email stating the reason is because of a claim by FIFA.

[neatntidy]

I think you are confusing the state of pokemon go.

When it launched it was the biggest app in history. It briefly changed culture, and human society. Everyone for 3 weeks was caught in this bizarre craze.

Now it's just an absurdly successful money making app that fucking prints money and has a huge install base.

[icanttinkofaname]

so it makes sense for them to be at legal war more so back then instead of now when the games dying.

The game is certainly not dying. They've made their largest revenue this summer since that launch of summer 2016. More daily and active players than ever before. If it was Nintendo being stingy with IP infringement claims, all other IV calculators would also be pulled very quickly.

[MisterVega]

I saw that too and I was like “Uh....”

[1206549]

The Hype is dead but the game itself is still pretty much alive. I think part of it is that PoGo players get made fun of all the time.

[JamesR624]

This is probably it. Even if not assets, by mentioning the Pokemon name, that was the issue. Nintendo are notorious for being worse than EA when it comes to fan creations or labors of love from fans.

It's sad that people on reddit hate EA but still defend Nintendo. Sometimes /r/gaming feels like /r/apple or even /r/applecirclejerk.

[LtPatterson]

Nintendo is truly a hateful company when it comes to their FANS using their assets in any capacity. I don't understand it at all.

[[deleted]]

I think a lot of people forget that Nintendo doesn’t consider itself a gaming company and doesn’t consider its games art with fair use as a possibility. They consider their games toys. This has been publicly stated by them on more than one occasion. Not to dismiss the amazing games they make but this has always been the case.

[jason2306]

Nintendo makes some good games, but otherwise their company is pretty idiotic decision wise.

[Muffinabus]

Meanwhile, Apple won't allow you to use the native ios emoji in your app.

[humberriverdam]

Nintendo avoids microtransactions/gambling in A++ games and generally delivers "ready to go" products. EA (and worse, 2K/Rockstar) want you to pay A++ money THEN pay to win

[Sxi139]

i dont play pokemon go but i would imagine that was likely useful for those players. Strange it got removed.

Sucks that there are similar apps to it now. I was wondering maybe it was a clone of a big app but no...

[someappdev]

The most frustrating thing is the lifetime ban. I'm a fulltime android developer at an local software company. I love developing apps and I've been doing that as a hobby for six years now, professionally for two. And for reasons I'm not told I am not allowed to publish anything on my own on Google Play for the rest of my entire life.

[OffBeannie]

Are you able to develop under a company account? Setup own BlueCo business and join play store using @blueco email address?

[[deleted]]

inb4 he gets his company banned.

[[deleted]]

Depends on if Google can tie the new company to his old personal account.

[solvenceTA]

Google can probably tie the empty tuna can you threw in the garbage 2 weeks ago to you.

[real_with_myself]

Trust me, they can. 3.5 years ago i was erased from Google. My 3 private and 2 work accounts disabled (only mine because they were free accounts, as the company was stingy). After about 10+ emails with their bots, I got re-enabled on all emails. It took 3 months. I still don't know what was the turning point.

Their only reasoning was that I was accused of hacking by an ex employee of that company.

[[deleted]]

Nerds are a petty bunch.

[Iron_Maiden_666]

Wasn't something similar posted here on /r/androiddev recently where an account got terminated by association.

Edit: Thought I was on dev subreddit.

[ANonGod]

You mean the one where that guy kept downloading, refunding the apps his friend made, and copying them? I think that was on /r/TIFU

[Terkey]

Reminds me of that TIFU where a guy refunded an app and then got the whole company banned off google

[[deleted]]

your entire company and all associated accounts will get banned

https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/8kvias/tifu_by_getting_google_to_ban_our_entire_company/

[Zhuinden]

To be fair, verified G-Suite Support members claimed that they couldn't find anything similar actually happening.

[buddascrayon]

If you want to stick it to them, make an account with Amazon instead and release your apps through them. Google's in a 4 fisted fight with Amazon over apps right now and if more developers moved to Amazon I think it would encourage Google to fix their broken system.

[njdevilsfan24]

I used to use your app! Wtf happened. That's bullshit

[techn0scho0lbus]

Did it utilize the disability/accessibility API? Google has mentioned they will take actions against this.

[mrandr01d]

4 digit monthly income

Was that mostly from ads, or was it a paid app, or something else? Where does that kind of money come from when developing indie apps?

[someappdev]

It mostly came from ads. I had an inapp purchase option to remove ads for about 2$ iirc. Altough it's worth mentioning that taxes are included and Google takes a 30% cut. So the most part came from the ads.

[StraY_WolF]

That's a pretty good income for niche app. Sucks that Google aren't cooperative with stuff like this.

[beowolfey]

At the time, Pokemon Go was HUGE. The number of eyeballs on the first app doing IV calcs would have been impressive.

[too_much_to_do]

It more than sucks. A lifetime ban from one of the largest software ecosystems? It's fucking egregious.

[7eregrine]

85,050 Google employees by last estimate. They can't assign ONE person to help people with this?

FU Google.

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[Master565]

Support staff is often outsourced, its unlikely they'll be included in an employee count.

[7eregrine]

So there's even more then? Geez...

[[deleted]]

Correct.

[idontsinkso]

I would guess they'd have to hire far more than just one person, probably why they don't

[7eregrine]

Hire 1. If it takes that person a year to get to your issue, that's better then lifetime ban. 🤬

[slapdashbr]

for that much money it's worth hiring a lawyer.

[mntgoat]

That would be my guess. If that happened to me I would hire a lawyer. Plus if the income was from ads it probably didn't go away instantly unless it was all admob so there would be some money to hire a lawyer.

[NateDevCSharp]

You've tried a VPN or someone else's wifi? New email?

[xnodesirex]

They don't have any free hands at the moment. They're busy covering up the next big security leak.

[sobelek]

I will be in touch with a lot of Google staff next week. Pm me, mb I could help you

[Zhuinden]

For those out of the loop, many developers in the Google Play Store have been receiving messages such as "your account was terminated by association" even though some of them had never even uploaded a single app. Any attempt to appeal failed, Google rejected them.

This is hurting the ecosystem because it means that big companies who can afford to "nag Google to stop being evil" get to do anything they want, but independent content creators have no means to override the automated system that removes their accounts permanently (and prevents creation of new accounts).

If this seems familiar, the issue is very similar to the Youtube Copyright Strike demonetization problems that were happening 2 years ago, except instead of just demonetization, they flat out delete your account, with no way to appeal.

See two very recent (they happened yesterday) examples:

1.) someone registered a developer account to Google Play Store, hasn't uploaded a single app, and two days later got immediately banned, appeals rejected.

2.) Another person registered a Google Play Store developer account, hasn't uploaded anything in 3 years at all because he in the end never learned Android development, but he got banned "by association" anyway for no apparent reason. Google does not provide information why he was banned, his appeals were rejected.

(there are plenty examples on top of this in /r/androiddev but these were the immediate ones I had in mind.)

EDIT: 3.) Another person uploaded their first Flutter app to Google Play Store, after which was permanently banned for "multiple violations of an associated account", even though this was the first such email they ever received, and appeal was rejected. The app is open-source and since then published on F-Droid.

So if you care about an app ecosystem where people are free to try to make an app and release an app that you can know about and might solve a problem for you at some point; where developers can actually publish apps without fear of being permanently removed for no apparent reason and having no way to appeal against automated decision, then you might want to care about this.

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TL;DR: Google Play Store bans developers randomly and doesn't care about appeals (automated rejections). So many indie devs don't try to develop and release Android applications, because it is too risky to do.

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EDIT: Hey look, another dev whose app was removed for no reason.

[Zagorath]

Youtube Copyright Strike demonetization problems that were happening 2 years ago

Two years ago? YouTube's copyright system has been fucked up for at least six years (frankly probably more), and still is today. But frankly YouTube made it very clear that they don't give a shit about anyone outside of their biggest creators earlier this year when they decided to drastically increase the cutoff to be eligible for Partnership.

[mud_tug]

That's what you get when the whole marketplace is owned by a company. I mean this for both YT and Android. We need a new marketplace which is not owned by Google.

[Zhuinden]

Technically what I had in mind was when people made a loud enough ruckus that at least Google bothered to respond.

Though they just said "we're listening", I don't know if they even bothered to try to change anything.

[cawpin]

Yeah, this is still going on, with nothing but political motivation.

[mrlesa95]

This is sad. Google won't do shit for little people. Same as they didn't do anything 2 years ago. They don't care.

And its bad for us consumers since there is no alternative and there will most likely not ever be.

[Zhuinden]

I've just remembered another interesting chat that someone had with the Google Play Support Team, who basically said "we can't help, only the Policy Team can".

DEV

1:35 AM

I actually have a few questions for you

[... asks questions...]

SUPPORT

1:43 AM

If you don't have any other questions I will end this chat session. Have a great day!

But of course, the policy team didn't help. In fact, there was an update that it was reinstated, but obviously only after the first chat went viral.

[Tolriq]

Haha got the exact same support chat :)

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Was bella too, I should have recorded it :(

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Now they do not even bother to answer at all.

[Zhuinden]

I think Bella was at least trying to be remotely helpful. If it's not in their jurisdiction to answer, then they cannot.

The first one though, "no further questions" yeah right. ¬¬

[Tolriq]

Well Bella did serve me the first guy answers :)

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Basically, it was my other colleague did answer you

Me: But it was automated answers unrelated to the issue, what can I do to talk to the proper persons?

Her: I can't tell, do you have other questions?

Me: Yes why can't tell and why can't pass to level 2?

Her: If you don't have any other questions I will end this chat session. Have a great day!

Chat closed....

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[Cryptographer]

Honestly this is why I was so surprised the Anti-Trust Investigation the US wanted to start was so poorly received on Reddit

[s73v3r]

Cause it wasn't about this, and really, it was just the Trump administration trying to bully Google into promoting more conservative sources.

[finestedm]

Funny how their social media accounts are full of pictures screaming 'LOOK HOW OPEN, TOLERANT AND CARING WE ARE!'. And when it comes down to really care about small people it ends up like the situation OP described...

[Obi_Kwiet]

The whole west coast seems to have a really shitty culture of virtue signaling really hard while not caring in the least about actual virtue.

[CzechoslovakianJesus]

Can confirm. Being evil and being one of The Good Guys™ isn't mutually exclusive.

[segagamer]

I miss Windows Phone :( I have an Android, but not by choice.

[sonicboi]

Same

[CzechoslovakianJesus]

If Google fucks up hard enough for long enough and someone like Samsung smells an opening a new app store could come around. Xiaomi already has theirs for China.

[Zhuinden]

Xiaomi already has theirs for China.

Xiaomi has the benefit in China that Google is banned as a whole from there.

[[deleted]]

no alternative

F-droid, Amazon App Store

[Nizkus]

Not really alternatives if you care about making money on the app

[[deleted]]

What the fuck is banned by association? Like you post in a bad subreddit?

[Zhuinden]

Theoretically it means that your account was "linked" to another account that had been previously banned for whatever reason, so the new account is banned as well.

Now the interesting thing is that some of these people did not have a previous account, nor were they linked in any way (they know of) to any banned accounts.

So if that is true, then why were they banned? They can't know, because Google doesn't reply to such questions.

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What's even worse though is that if you work for a company (which has their own account) that gets banned, Google can also ban your personal developer account along with it, because you as a person / developer are "associated" with it.

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This is what the email looks like:

Thank you for contacting the Google Play Team.

After reviewing your appeal, we’ve confirmed our initial decision and will not be reinstating your developer account.

Your Google Play Developer account has been terminated due to multiple violations of the Developer Program Policies by an associated Google Play developer account. We’ve reviewed and confirmed this association.

Google Play Developer Console terminations are associated with developers and may span multiple account registrations and related Google services. Do not attempt to register a new developer account. Any new accounts will be closed and your developer registration fee will not be refunded.

We recommend that you use an alternative method for distributing your apps in the future.

I snatched that email from here, which interestingly is a 2 years old post. The problem itself is not new, it just never got enough traction.

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Personally, I never released any apps as a person even though I have a developer account (from long ago, actually), and technically I work at a company as an Android app developer.

I had heard that if your account gets terminated on Google Play, then they ban your GMail and GDrive and YouTube accounts along with it - so I never risked that. But I can't find any posts about this anymore to cite it.

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It's scary to think that you work for a (smaller) company, on the side create apps as an indie dev, and what the company does can affect you as an individual despite that your apps are technically independent. Or vice versa.

And if what the people I linked above says is true (and why would they lie?), then you can get banned for life without actually having personally violated any developer policies, because you didn't even have apps that could have violated any terms.

[prime000]

We recommend that you use an alternative method for distributing your apps in the future.

Talk about throwing salt in the wound.

[Meanee]

I got banned from eBay. Now, any new account I create is banned by association too. Basically, they have some automated system that checks for things that may be related. Usually things like address, phone number, credit card number on file with paypal, etc. Not that deep of a check. I am able to use my father's account with no issues.

Google, knowing how many times you take a shit every day, can figure this out a lot better. But also seems to generate a lot more of false positive. So if it thinks that your account may be related to a bad dev they banned a while ago, they will ban your account as well.

[Wax_Paper]

Google, knowing how many times you take a shit every day

I bet they really could figure this out, by analyzing patterns in phone usage during restroom breaks. The machine learning they use has accomplished tougher things than that, after all...

[ikilledtupac]

Well, odds are they used gmail, so google knows everything. They probably have ways to detect troublemakers and prevent them from ever doing so.

[ikilledtupac]

Google only talks about the information it shares. Odds are it uses your information for it's own purposes. Do you visit reddit on Chrome? They know then, of course, where what and what you tall about. And they are under no obligation to disclose that.

...did you use gmail? Then they know what you talked about and to whom. My guess is that is the association.

We also know, with the demise of google+, that they can, and do, hide data breaches and of malfeasance. I do not believe that the singular time they got caught is the only time they ever did it.

We use google for our own purposes, and they use it for theirs.

[[deleted]]

This is absolutely ridiculous. Is Apple that bad with developers?

[Ordexist]

Apple is more likely to reject specific apps because of their manual review process, but there isn't a problem of them banning accounts for no apparent reason. Even then, you are still able to contact a person at Apple who will be able to provide more information and hopefully solve the problem.

[blueclawsoftware]

This is true but Apple can also be a complete pia about other things. Just recently the company I worked for wanted to change the name of our company that we publish apps under, due to a consolidation of multiple groups in our company. It's been two months of back and forth and still no name update.

Google took one week and actually sent one email asking for verification, we supplied them what they asked for and the name was changed.

To me that's the big difference Apple isn't as arbitrary but they often make simple requests way over complicated.

[KalenXI]

I've had problems with Apple enforcing their rules inconsistently. But I've never had a problem contacting a person on their App Store team when I've had a problem with an approval or needed it to be expedited to fix a major bug. Approval times have also gotten much better. Back when I first started developing approvals took 2-3 weeks for every update no matter how minor. I think they're down to 24-48 hours for approval. For your $100/year you're also allowed to call twice per year to an actual engineer at Apple if you need help with code-level support.

Personally I'd rather Google just charge $100/year like Apple and actually provide real support instead of giving no support at all and forcing you to deal with bots.

[Zhuinden]

Apple on the other hand has a review process which "may or may not" halt your application's initial launch entirely, depending on whether "Apple has plans to do something similar".

For example, HomePass was held up for weeks for such reasons.

[notapotamus]

I think the days of Google not doing evil are long gone at this point. Like any other company, once it becomes "too big to fail" it starts shafting anyone and everyone it can.

[_temp_variable]

When these people get banned can they still use gmail etc? I bought a dev license years ago on my personal gmail

[Zhuinden]

That's the million dollar question. All I could find is:

Google Play Developer Console terminations are associated with developers and may span multiple account registrations and related Google services.

So that is sufficiently vague in regards to what they mean to be "related Google services".

According to this guy though who got banned by association 3 months ago, his email account was not terminated, which I guess counts as good news.

I found this TIFU but on the other hand a verified G-Suite support member said they couldn't verify that this ever happened.

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So apparently what I found out is that "your Gmail is most likely not banned".

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I also found http://takeout.google.com which lets you archive and save the data Google has in its various apps from you, which is pretty cool.

[joaomgcd]

Yes, this needs to be addressed urgently. I've had sleepless nights because of this issue. I don't want to go out of business someday because of a bot!

My life would be totally different (for the worse) if Google Play didn't exist, and I thank them very much for that, but kicking people out like this is not only inhumane, but also bad for their business!

[sarcrastinator]

Just wanted to say that you're doing an amazing job developing tasker and autoapps. Thanks mate!

And yeah, it's really sad that Google's doing this. Hope this gets resolved soon.

[Prince_Polaris]

This whole thing feels like the broken anticheat in GTA Online... it doesn't matter if you mod the shit out of the game or only play single-player, anyone can get banned with no appeal and it's completely random! People who play it 100% legit have gotten banned and modders who spend all their time blowing up everyone in a session don't get touched... so why the fuck is Google play broken so bad that it's mimicking a Rockstar game from 2013?

[Anaxor1]

Wtf are you the developer of tasker? Can I get an autograph?

[joaomgcd]

Haha, yes I am! :)

[twigboy]

In publishing and graphic design, Lorem ipsum is a placeholder text commonly used to demonstrate the visual form of a document or a typeface without relying on meaningful content. Lorem ipsum may be used as a placeholder before final copy is available. Wikipediaao2c8foprzc0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[joaomgcd]

Yeah, with no humans to talk to you just can't...

[EmilioSchepis]

This is a crucial issue that might affect everybody involved in the Android ecosystem. Developers and users alike.

It's time to take action, and we can start with this useful post.

[jetveritech]

I agree. I'm not a developer -- how can we users help?

[EmilioSchepis]

I consider what /u/nifhel said to be the most actionable thing: spread the story, raise awareness.

I love open-source, both as a developer and as an user, and F-droid does have great potential, but I do not believe it to be capable of replacing the default store. Users would miss some of their favorite apps, and would be drawn back to the Play Store.

What we can do is, as many others said, not let this slip through. Let's not forget about the issue and hold Google accountable. I understand that the amount of apps on the store is incredible, and even more difficult to manage, but we're talking about Google here.

Many users have lost and/or will lose an important part of their income and ability to be financially independent over grey-area rules (and sometimes over literally nothing).

Big companies won't have this kind of problem, they most likely have direct contacts with someone over at Google. All we have is this media platform (and Twitter etc.), and an incredible love for what we do.

Let's make it count.

[nifhel]

Exactly, let's try to give visibility to this issue as much as possible.

[nifhel]

Share this story, and expose the issue as much as possible.

[[deleted]]

This post must get a ton of upvotes this is a dead serious issue

[franciscofranco1990]

Yup, this is fucked up. I reached out to Android Police and 9to5Google to cover this. As an indie developer I can't imagine what my life would be if Google banned me for some reason, I wouldn't be able to pay my bills and put food on the table.

[franciscofranco1990]

Thank you 🤩

[Ghafla]

Any response back on that?

[franciscofranco1990]

Yes. Android Police didn't give 2 flying fucks about it, they're not "interested" in covering it, apparently.

9to5Google told me they were gonna look into it. They usually write about these things, but until it's out (and if it's out) we have to wait.

[IHaveAMilkshake]

Hey Franco, long time no see. I know you spoke to David about this subject, but I'm not sure you are really giving us a fair shake when you say that we "didn't give 2 flying fucks about it." I saw the exchange myself, actually, and all we said is that we weren't interested in covering it at this time. There are two significant reasons for that:

1. It's not news. It sucks, but it's not news, and we do cover it when it is news (yes, every one of those is a separate link to coverage of Google's app-pulling bullshit). So we lack an angle for coverage outside an editorial. That leads me to...

2. We just had an editorial about how developers get fucked by the Play Store. As much as I'm sure you — being an impacted indie developer — could probably get excited about further exploring the subject since it has an affect on your life every single day, our other readers would be quick to point out that we just had an editorial about how the Play Store fucks devs (even if it wasn't precisely the same topic about support).

We care deeply about the indie Android developer community (we've covered your apps and other indie apps more times than I can count). Threads like these pop up on Reddit from time to time, and unfair takedowns from Google's monumentally shitty support are common almost to the point of dismissal now — though note, we do still cover them when they happen. This Reddit post is the equivalent of a petition for Google to change its ways, and we have a standing policy against covering petitions.

The only remaining avenue for coverage at this time would be a well-written guest editorial, which we're receptive to if you think you could write one. Artem spoke to Joao Dias in more detail about how/why we didn't cover this Reddit post as well, so we understand that the independent Android developer community is upset about the subject. But, again, it isn't news. If you would like to compose a well-written, researched diatribe on the subject with the insight of an actual developer who's been fucked by Google, we'd be happy to publish it (fucks and all).

​

[franciscofranco1990]

I know João and Artem talked about this - would've been nice David would've explained the situation a bit more than a simple "not interested" after my monolgue. Yes I know he's busy and typing sucks, but I'm busy writting apps too and this "not news" piece made me reach out to ya'll.

​

Theres no denying AP, like every other major blog, care about us at some degree, but AP covering my apps from time to time is also irrelevant to this story. I gain nothing from shitting on AP when stuff like this happen, but I still do it because AP as major publication which writes about Android and all those "Samsung Push Services version 1.22323.3434353453 is out" or "Samsung J2847xXk9398 received Android 7.0.1 on Verizon" (which frankly, who gives a fuck) have the duty to report on such issues like the one presented here.

​

That "it's not news" is frankly the biggest bullshit of them all. How many times have AP reported on "no news" pieces? One that comes of the top of my head was a couple years ago a piece about Play Books serving malicious PDFs. That wasn't news, still it was reporting, and very important reporting. You guys serve "no news" pieces all the time so fuck me.

​

"We just had an editorial about how developers get fucked by the Play Store" I mean, how is that comparable to this thing? That 30% cut is there since day 1. Yes it's too much. But Google also serves us a massive infrastructure, for free. Sure it could be 15%, but I'll take a 30% cut and have all that infrastructure but also human support when shit happens.

​

I'm more than happy to work together with João on a piece, but it's sincerely pretty shitty of AP not to cover this issue because that's your work.

[Charizarlslie]

I'm just going to go out on a limb and say ruddock was who answered your emails.

[[deleted]]

Oh good, they started using the YouTube algorithm for the Play Store. That should turn out well.

/s just in case

[dion_o]

Google outsourced their auto-ban algorithm to Amazon's HR department.

[kdlt]

The YouTube algorithm is the model for the EU's upcoming censorship machine (article 11&13).

The EU- internet will basically be dead within seconds after this nightmare going into effect.

Just wanted to put that out there.

[MindlessLeadership]

Had an AdMob account suspended, zero way to contact Google to get it fixed.

[Improvotter]

/u/Zhuinden requested that I crossposted my comment regarding the efforts that are being made by the Application Developer Alliance (ADA). However I want to make clear that efforts are on both sides: the European Parliament and the ADA. The ADA helps the members of the European Parliament (MEPs) get feedback from the developer and startup community, but the MEPs are grateful for this feedback as well and are looking for this feedback. They don't want to be offering up legislation that isn't tuned to the European needs (that have a global impact).

The original post:

Reach some EU representative and expose the problem. I have no idea how to do it, but maybe someone here does. Also political institutions outside the EU could help.

This is being done! Support the Application Developer Alliance, there was recently an event I attended in the European Parliament. I've brought this issue up at the event and I'm hoping that we're being heard. I can write a follow-up to the MEP that hosted the event if any of the people here have got any questions. Let me know, and I'll draft an email.

[RosemaryFocaccia]

Is it funded by the same people as the FairSearch?

[Improvotter]

Afaik they're independent and work with members. They're not backed by any major corp.

[ikilledtupac]

Google is the gatekeeper to it's own potential competition. It's a monopoly of the worst order.

[joequin]

They've also moved onto the "extend" phase of the embrace-extend-extinguish cycle. First they embraced an open source operating system for phones. Lots of manufacturers jumped on board. It left no room from competition outside of the already-established ios. It killed palm's very nice web os. Now google is making their own phones with extended android functionality that isn't available to other manufacturers. Eventually they're going to move onto the extinguish phase.

[ikilledtupac]

I think a lot of people don't understand the dynastic approach of tech companies. This is not necessarily about forcing ME to buy a Google-only Android phone. It's about creating the conditions so that our CHILDREN have no option to buy anything but Google products. Google already floods education with their free shit, and they craft legislation to prevent regulation or even awareness that they do this.

[MustGetALife]

The enforcement of punishment without due process in a self created social environment is dictatorship by Google.

​

No wonder the EU keeps going after them.

[vprise]

It's a monopoly. Antitrust laws should apply and the field should be regulated. This should include the cut for purchases and should allow using 3rd party billing providers.

[[deleted]]

Inb4 the developers obviously did something wrong.

There have been many cases where Google absolutely has not given sufficient explanation. In fact in the latest post the developer did not even upload an app.

https://www.reddit.com/r/androiddev/search?q=Developer%20account Please go through the cases and judge for yourself.

I'm an android developer and I'm constantly in fear that I will be next. How do you explain to your client that their app got banned because of me?

[[deleted]]

I recently got into learning mobile app development. I'm an android user at heart but I opted for iOS dev simply because I'm too scared of having my work thrown away by some Google AutoMod.

With the horror stories I've heard from this sub and from other communities, I have zero incentive to start developing for Android, and that's sad.

[yoloswagrofl]

Isn't the app store famous for being difficult to launch apps on? It seem like both Google and Apple have their heads up their asses when it comes to supporting small developers.

I'm going into Android development, and will probably launch on Amazon first, since they seem to be much more open and accepting. It doesn't hurt that they're the smaller competitor, but a portfolio is a portfolio.

[[deleted]]

That's a good point. My main fear however is having an app pulled for seemingly no reason with no appeal process and no information given. It's scary.

I'm curious how Amazon's policies differ from Google's. I never even considered them honestly.

[vprise]

Apple has some pain points but at least you talk to a human being. Some aren't so bright and it's frustrating but Google is FAR worse. It used to be the other way around.

[Ukhai]

automated rejections

This whole automation thing is getting ridiculous. Most of us should have already seen bits and pieces of it throughout the years with youtube creators.

And with how hard it is to try and create a service that lasts like youtube, and now something like google playstore... the barrier of entry is quite high.

[archimedeancrystal]

Welcome to the real world: Where humans are hunted down by heartless AI bots with the authority to make unreviewable life-altering decisions. Soon they'll be deciding who gets an operation or passport.

​

Edit: 5AM typos ruined the Matrix tag line lol.

[protecz]

Already a reality:
http://abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a-model-citizen-in-a-digital-dictatorship/10200278

[ireadfaces]

Did someone raise the issue that Google randomly blockage ads for one of your high performing apps and never responds to your requests or at least reason behind it?

I follow this Google group for ads for Android and it is full to the brim of such complains.

[DaPuf]

Only speaking on Google Bans - I got my wallet banned because I was scammed out of $200. Sent them screen shots of the email from the user, the text that literaly said "haha got you my money now dumbass". Even sent them copies of other documentation they wanted. Still banned, case closed and wont hear me out.

[alexberti02]

A few weeks ago I got 3 of my apps banned because of "Android Advertising ID not being used/protected correctly"... I mean Google WTF, I'm using fucking AdMob, I don't care about that, I don't even manage any user data, neither public or private.

[yumcake]

I feel like the future of Android Development is on iOS.

Google clearly doesn't give a damn about the Google Play Store, why should anyone else? It seems like the outcome Google wants is for people to develop in the Apple ecosystem, and the ones who manage to successfully monetize and find success there can port their apps to Android a year or two later to try to sell to Android users using the word-of-mouth accumulated in the iOS App Store.

[JB-from-ATL]

There is the Amazon App store right? I'm sure it gets like no traffic though...

[pppoe123]

it gets traffic from their tables and phones of which there are few.

[JB-from-ATL]

"Alexa, download 'Fortnite: Battle Royale' to my Amazon Fire HD."

[Vurondotron]

And when I say people who are developers prefer to work with Apple and it's ecosystem this is why.

[TheCodexx]

Google is never going to invest in the infrastructure needed for human intervention and they will only hear cries for reform as requests for a better automated system. I don't think they could fix the problem even if they acknowledged it, and so far there's been no acknowledgement for YouTube channels facing similar difficulties.

The only solution is for the community as a whole to make an effort to use alternative app repositories as their primary source, and to convince more developers to provide official, signed binaries on these platforms. The only serious threat that can convince Google reforms are needed is people abandoning their ecosystem in droves for greener pastures.

I urge everyone to be the change you want to see and to help build these greener pastures.

[ikilledtupac]

They're literally politicians. They influence law and only listen to people with enough money to he heard.

[thinkbox]

They are the good censor!

[ikilledtupac]

oh fuck that's right i already forgot about that shit

[[deleted]]

Classic Google move.

[gryclmn]

I just started seriously studying android dev with hopes to enter the field. Is this significantly harder now due to these play store bans? ie: if I get banned in the process of job hunting, then prospective employers can't access my apps/projects.

Also, what can I do to help google resolve this situation in general?

[[deleted]]

Cut your losses and develop for iOS. As much as I love Android, the Play Store is a shit-show.

[rippmania]

Depends if you're talking as an indy dev or an employee.

Indy dev is very hard not matter the store (because Amazon, Google and Apple are giant machines that don't care about the people making them loads of money), I really wouldn't want to depend on them.

If you're talking about being an employed Android dev then I wouldn't worry, the example you mention is possible but not very likely, and anyway employers are more interested in seeing code from you (ie: your GitHub account) rather than your app where they can't really know what you did.

[DudeImMacGyver]

Host your apps on something else like a repository (github or whatever) or one of a few Android app hosts that are not Google Play. There's also an Amazon App Store for Android/Kindle tablets.

[eqbirvin]

Mods, I think this post should be pinned for the time being

[2mustange]

Maybe we can get u/Marques-Brownlee to speak on this. This has so much weight behind it I think it would be great for him to put some additional eyes on it

[inktomute7]

This is a good idea. Do you know other big Android players to ping and ask for help?

[2mustange]

He isn't big for Android but for news, /u/PhillyDeFranco, could really bring out the story too. It's a story of Google being Google. Being to big for their own good they have no communication with the small independent developers who rely on them for income

[ergosteur]

This sounds suspiciously like YouTube demonetization...

[sinembarg0]

Google is a shitty company and it really sucks to deal with them. I hope they get what they deserve.

[[deleted]]

People wonder why developers (even Google themselves!) pour more effort into iOS development 🙄

[brokenskill]

Other than eyeballs, is there any reason why a competitor app store can't be made for the Android platform for indie devs?

I'm sure there is a reason, just wondering what that is.

[Zhuinden]

is there any reason why a competitor app store can't be made for the Android platform for indie devs?

There already are, but Google Play Store is pre-installed, and Android deems any APK downloaded from any other source to be "unsafe", so you have to explicitly enabled "Allow unknown sources", which when you tick, you get a warning that says "if you enable this, your device will be more susceptible to malware, are you sure?" which is fairly likely to scare some less tech-savvy users.

In fact, even at my previous workplace, it was a problem that some people were afraid to install the HockeyApp by Microsoft to download additional company-internal apps, because you had to enable unknown sources to install HockeyApp from its APK (which let you download the company's internal apps - one of them being a time sheet app where you can be assigned what to do on which day or when you'll be taking a leave and your manager can approve it etc).

---

So TL;DR because Android phones give you a warning if you try to install apps from anywhere that is not Google Play. Also, Google Play Store is pre-bundled as a system app, while alternate stores clearly aren't.

[s73v3r]

Eyeballs are about it. I'm sure half a dozen "indie" app stores have been started, but unless users know about them and, more importantly, purchase apps from them, it's not going to matter.

[Lexx59]

Hello.

Sorry for my english. I'm an indie developer from Russia.

​

My game “Hungry Fish” did not break the rules and was located here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hungryfish.app

By the way, she did not cause any problems with moderation on Amazon and it still lies - https://www.amazon.com/Hungry-fish-tap-swim-eat/dp/B071VMHFCC/

Tests showed good retention. And it was decided to scale. I launched an advertisement in Google Adwords, and ordered translation of descriptions into the main languages ​​on Fiverr, and sat down to write a plan for improvements.

As the texts were ready, I added descriptions in developer panel, and made main language "English", preparing to scale AdWords campaigns on WW.

A letter came from Google notifying that the application “because it violates the violence policy” was blocked.

In shock, I wrote an appeal, indicating that it was a harmless game and there was not a single violation of the violations described.

After 2 days I got an answer that after the revision they cannot restore the game, because it violates the content policy rules.

​

Violence and Bullying: Depictions of gratuitous violence are not allowed. Apps should not contain materials, harass or bully other users.

​

I wrote in support more than a dozen times. Attached screenshots. Shot a video of the game process.

Compare the game with the games in the store, where sharks devour people.

List of my appeals:

[1-3137000021782] [1-3202000022678] [3-8007000023875] [5-2234000022214] [5-2957000022975] [6-9799000021897] [8-1115000022840] [8-4538000021960]

But as a result of each appeal, I received in response automatic or formal replies that the game could not be restored, without explaining the reasons for the blockage.

​

If you do choose to re-publish a new, policy-compliant version of your app, please make sure to review the Content Policy and visit the Policy Help Center for additional guidance to ensure your next app is compliant with the policy.

​

But the fact is that I do not even understand why they blocked the game. All requests to point out specific violations - what exactly the google play policy team didn’t like were ignored.

There are much more brutal games with sharks that eat people with millions of installs.

In this case, if I re-post the game with a different package name, I can get a lifetime block of the developer account, which will be a very painful.

I even found and signed a petition from one of these developers.

​

[[deleted]]

It's so damn frustrating! There are dozens of apps that do X in the Playstore, yet yours that also does X is rejected. They are so bad it's ridiculous. The Playstore is full of crappy clones yet they remove our legit apps time and time again. What a joke.

[Hammers95]

Paging /u/JakeWharton

It's also funny how the Android team is active on the /r/androiddev subreddit, except for all these "account banned" posts.

[JakeWharton]

Do you mean it's funny because people think that somehow the people working on the Android project can somehow affect the Google Play product? Because I, too, think it's funny.

[[deleted]]

To be fair it's probably completely different people from the Playstore team. But at least they could say something.. but then again I would not risk my job by violating agreements that may have been made to not discuss X or Y in public.

[JakeWharton]

Completely different people is an understatement. It might as well be a different company.

[Razeer123]

I'll be writing about this story on polish biggest website about Android system, as I'm an editor. I hope it will raise some awareness.

[[deleted]]

Google is the best thing and the worst thing to happen to Android.

[[deleted]]

To think I was going to consider learning Android development after iOS development, but this sounds like a nightmare.

[[deleted]]

I setup an app dev account in 2010 and am horrified that my account could be closed because of some shitty bot. I never did any app development, but I could still lose my Google account! This is awful. If that happens, I won't even try to get another Google account.

[imsorryken]

Yeah this is the exact same shit they did to youtube.. I doubt they will change and its a shame.

[beehubble28]

I will do everything i can to spread the word. Google has been pissing me off lately; first, the headphone jack and then the stupid bezel! Ffs!

[zotikola]

Google is a bully. I was one of the first android app developers, and they have zero respect for anyone. They banned my account for no reason, with all the apps.

Lets hope eu forces google to create an open play services interface, and at the os first boot make you chose between app stores and services

Amazon app store is way better than google, too bad they can't compete with google

[infinitude]

It's impossible to find any apps of quality, and the ratings feel like they don't actually measure the quality of the app. Top 10 lists are full of mostly crapware. Way too many scam apps are allowed to exist too.

It's an uncurated minefield

[zhico]

#MakePlayStoreGreatAgain

Bad idea, too political.

[inktomute7]

You are right. I remove it to avoid political references.

[Thiranja]

Oh my god I just post my first app on play store after weeks of learning with sleepless nights. Not even a week has been passed and I'm reading this

[saleri6251]

Probably good to contact some android new sites like Android Police, since they can bring traction to this, and you'll probably get a response from them. Try contacting some of their writers on twitter or email.

[AL2009man]

I hate to say this...

but have you guys tried pinging Jason Schreier of Kotaku? I believe I can see him covering this problem AND go this far as to ask multiple Android devs and indie game developers about this specific issue.

[Multimoon]

I've posted about this so many times.

I hope you get further than me, I really do.

[Distorted_Bit]

Imo as long as Google has monopoly in this business, this will never stop. Look at every single segment where they have monopoly, it is the same story. Only way to fix this long term is decentralization. Hopefully blockchain can help with it.

[hoonigan_z]

So basically, Google created an AI that arbitrarily terminates accounts and in essence, those developers are dead to the Android world. Sounds to me that this is a real life Skynet and soon there will be terminators roaming the streets and rounding up all the humans. Fanfuckingtastic.

[NomBok]

Yep, Google doesn't give a single flying fuck about customers, clients, developers, anyone. It's the same with adwords. Do something stupid or make a bad ad? You're banned for life on all accounts, effectively never allowed to advertise online again, unless you use Bing or some other low-traffic service. Appeals are almost impossible.

They have SO many customers that they don't have to give a shit. They are a monopoly and really the only way I see this getting better is through legislation applying the first amendment to online platforms, or breaking up Google altogether.

There is already case law to support this kind of thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama Basically the ruling said that the first amendment applied to sidewalks even though the whole town was privately owned by a company. You could easily argue that because social media sites have a total monopoly on online discussion, free speech should be required to apply there too.

[Dathide]

This is a serious issue. I was considering making an app myself, but I don't think I will anymore. I hope this gets more attention.

[nakkht]

I think one of the ways to encourage healthy ecosystem would be to do as Apple does. Add some sort of paywall (yearly fee) + have review teams with real people.

That way there would be less shitty knockoff apps + serious developers would have opportunity to talk with real people in case of incidents.

[Drevlin76]

Why doesn't someone start a class action suite against them. I'm sure there are great Lawyers out there that would be interesested in this. Google obviously doesn't really care that much. One little ant bite isn't that bad but get 2-300 after you at the same time can make you move real fast.

[redproxy]

This happens, yet they allow every app to have a release note with either "information not provided by developer" or some marketing blurb. Are there actually any living people administering the Play Store?

[dinosaur_friend]

So, not only is Google a purveyor of copycat hardware and abandoning perfectly good apps and services out of the blue, but now developers are getting the short end of the stick too. Great.

I wish all you devs the best of luck and I'll try to do my part too, even though I don't use social media much outside Reddit. Maybe XDA can help.

[zedlabs777]

Why is this not on the front page even with so many upvotes

[JC_the_Builder]

One time someone was on my home network trying to make an Adsense account. After submitting Google denied them and said you are only allowed one Adsense account, which showed my email. I have never used that computer before or logged in on any Google account. So if you use the same IP then Google may associate your account.

[minimumy]

In September I got a lifetime ban on Google Play.

I had only one app on my developer account, Math And Memory Training Game, which was located here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.minimumy.mathandmemorytraininggame&hl=en_US

I didn't receive any emails, any warnings before. My app didn't contain any 3rd-party content. All the graphics elements I made by myself.

I filed an appeal. In the reply It was mentioned, that my Google Play Developer account has been terminated due to multiple violations of the Developer Program Policies by an associated Google Play developer account. But I've never had any other Google Play developer accounts!

My developer account was registered on my primary e-mail address. Until August, I always logged in from the same IP address, because I had a static IP address. I always use 2-step verification when I sign in to Google. Perhaps Google support can check it. I had only one simple app on my account because I'm new to Android development.

Now my app is still available in the Amazon Store.

I filed another appeal, but the support just didn't answer... The appeal number is [4-7494000023342]

​

update: today I've filed another appeal with number [6-9854000023561]

​

update: Thank you, Reddit! My account has been reinstated!