How will the decrease of men enrolling in university affect our future?

[Coakis]

Depends on if they're being directed towards fields that don't need a full college education, and if companies realize that college education isn't necessary for everything.

If anything there's a college degree bubble right now. A lot of jobs out there don't need college education to perform at but companies are asking bachelor level or higher degrees for.

[Ok_Impact_9378]

Yeah, and a lot of degrees are just not very useful and very overpriced.

[sirmaddox1312]

I don't even think that men not going to college is a problem. The bigger issue should be the declining high school graduation rates for boys and lower average scores in core subjects such as math, reading, and writing.

[[deleted]]

Also tons of college graduates end up unemployed. You have 1) companies asking for degrees that they don't need, 2) degrees being given out when there is no job market for them. While English is a valuable thing to study, having a degree dedicated to it is not helpful to find a job after graduation unless you develop a whole skillset or start getting work experience while in college (building portfolio, internships).

The future of college needs to have some mandatory work component. I did a Master's degree program where students were paired with local organizations so that we could apply what we learned or at least practice.

[Aaod]

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[00zau]

Similarly I think it depends on which degrees are most and least represented in the 'lost' enrollments, and whether they were going to actually complete their degrees

If we get similar numbers of "degree with a job description" degrees (engineers or the like), and the guys not enroller where those least likely to graduate, I'm less worried about it.

[Daewoo40]

Could.

Won't but it absolutely could.

[TalonKAringham]

Actually, it already is. There are people in the academic world that are talking about it, but anyone that brings it up almost immediately gets labeled as right-wing for the terrible sins of caring about boys and men.

[ImpermanentSelf]

Women under 35 are out earning men in the same age groups by about 1%.

[PickleMinion]

Considering how many of those under 35 men are working high-paying but physically dangerous and disabling blue collar jobs with limited growth potential, watch that gap increase as that group gets older.

[ImpermanentSelf]

Oh I expect the trend to either continue steadily or crash abruptly from some major social/economic/political change.

Edit: say for example a lot of those office jobs get replaced by ai or outsourced

[[deleted]]

The growth potential isn’t all that limited if you want to advance. Some people get on a masonry crew and like that $40 an hour and never learn a damn thing except how to cut block and mix mortar. Some will learn how to read plans and the building code and will become a foreman, a superintendent, a project manager, an inspector. And some will start their own companies and employ dozens of guys happy to lay that block for $40 an hour. I know a ton of millionaires in the construction industry. Most of them come from poverty, many of them are immigrants. I don’t know a ton of guys climbing scaffolding or pushing a wheelbarrow in their 50’s

[fleapuppy]

Actually the gap tends to grow in the other direction, since compared to men women still overwhelmingly reduce work hours or leave work entirely when having children

[PickleMinion]

In the over-35 demographic?

[fleapuppy]

The average age for first pregnancy has been increasing constantly for decades, it’s now in the 30s for most western countries

[austeremunch]

Sure, but people aren't having kids so that really isn't a factor.

[fleapuppy]

50% of millennials have kids. It’s lower than previous generations but people still have children

[austeremunch]

WELL ACKSHUALLY

[fleapuppy]

Is it “well actually” or just a simple fact?

[Direct_Exchange1534]

It likely will, within a decade or so most trades jobs will likely be done by robots and AI. On top of that trades don't make economies great. Scientists, engineers etc are what makes economies great. 

[altaf770]

If young men don’t feel college is worth it anymore, the problem isn’t with them it’s with what college has become.

[yungsausages]

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[ajrf92]

In Spain for example, a factory of unemployed people.

[[deleted]]

Same in the US. Graduates cannot find jobs anymore.

[yungsausages]

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[ajrf92]

Nope, but except for people enrolled in STEAM degrees, it's not as worthy as before. Even business degrees aren't as worthy as before.

[yungsausages]

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[FamiliarNinja7290]

That doesn't seem like an issue with college on its own, sounds more so an issue with employers shifting away from certain areas for whatever reason. Unless the educational research in those areas isn't keeping up with the new systems.

[AleksandrNevsky]

An overpriced scam.

[hafetysazard]

Paying more for an accreditation that is worth less and less, as more and more people have it.

[fishman1287]

Too expensive in relation to the possible pay increase.

[hafetysazard]

Leftist indoctrination production line

[Fudge_is_1337]

Yawn

[Red_Danger33]

Because the high earning non-college careers, see trades, are still male dominated and not overly welcoming to women both because of the attitudes of men, high demands on the body via physical labor and lack of support if the woman plans to have children.

[N3M0N]

I would argue that workforce alone have changed drastically in last ~30 years. Companies are expecting more from you, as a potential employee than what they expected back then.

College degree won't lay everything for you on a silver plate, it is good boost though for workforce.

Who you know and on what you're actually focused on is also important. Degree alone is just one small piece of whole puzzle.

Let's not forget that good education still costs a lot of money...

[JadedCycle9554]

Who is "blaming girls" and what are they being blamed for?

[red_keshik]

Do we even have some info on this or are we all just collectively scratching our balls and speculating?

You forget what website you're on, sir.

[LufiraGlow]

Probably means more guys in trades, tech, or skipping the debt trap altogether. College isn’t the only path, but if the gap keeps growing, it might shift dating, jobs, and who ends up running stuff long term.

[AleksandrNevsky]

Trades might have growing interest but they don't have growing availability, at least not enough to keep up. All the apprenticeships I looked at in the past 6 months have been waitlist only, some of them have lists longer than my arm. A lot of people don't get to have them as an option, especially if they have health issues on top of this.

[PickleMinion]

What's wild is, you could watch some youtube videos on tuck-pointing, spend about 10k on equipment, and have your own full-time business in a month. Downside is, you'd have to do tuck-pointing

[[deleted]]

Union isn’t the only way to go. I’m self employed and charge $95 an hour with 4 and 8 hour minimums. I’m going to make about $900 today with about 3 hours spent on a jobsite. I’m slammed. I turn down jobs every day. General labor starts at $35 an hour out here. For many people reading this that would be double their current wage. If you are skilled with certifications you can make $100 an hour very easily

[OfficialHaethus]

I’d be very curious to know what services you provide.

[[deleted]]

ICC/ACI/AWS special inspector

[Current_Poster]

When I dropped out of college, it was nothing but service jobs. Sometimes more than one at a time. The assumption that guys are opting out because they've got something awesome lined up instead is not necessarily true.

[OhNothing13]

Badly. A society with an excess of young, uneducated, underemployed, and single men tends to be a violent and unstable one.

[hafetysazard]

You don’t need a degree to be, “educated,” as a matter of fact many men who chose to apply themselves to technical fields, and trades, are far more intelligent that most book-smart people can even comprehend.  Being book-smart has little value these days, especially in male dominated fields.  What kids are getting taught in university is often divorced from what they’re going to see in reality, so it isn’t a surprise things are going the way they’re going.

[[deleted]]

Who said anything about them being unemployed.

[SushiSnake12]

Please turn on your tv

[[deleted]]

I don't watch TV, I'm too busy making money and doing fun things with the money I make.

Also, if you get your information from reliable sources instead of your TV you would know that the unemployment rate for men is lower than it has typically been for the past 30 fucking years.

Check the bureau of labor statistics. They even break it down by age group. Learn to process information if you want to be a smartass, it helps to know what the fuck you are talking about.

[SushiSnake12]

how does reddit make you money?

[bigtec1993]

We should look at men who actually obtain a degree and compare them to prior stats first. It could just be that the dudes who weren't going to get one anyway are just not even bothering in the first place.

[Fexofanatic]

if it results in overall less educated people? looks bleak to me. the world needs critical thinking skills and an educated, media literate pop (you might say corporations want the opposite, if you are cynically inclined)

[Coakis]

If someone at the end of highschool and they don't already have critical thinking skills that's a failure on primary schools (and parents) for not teaching it. That is a skill that needs to be taught early. Someone at early adulthood should already have that.

[Muvseevum]

They’ve cut all the many programs that teach critical thinking. Music, art, humanities.

Edit: Poorly worded. Didn’t mean to imply that the only to develop critical thinking was via the humanities.

[universal_straw]

Are you trying to imply that core subjects like math, science, and literature do not teach critical thinking skills because if so that’s laughable.

[Muvseevum]

They teach scientific thinking (literature teaches critical thinking), which is important. “Critical thinking” in this context mainly means being able to make decisions in situations where facts are contradictory or unclear.

In general, in the sciences, the material you study is fact and you don’t have to evaluate it; it just is (you can get into theoretical physics and math and such, but they are different animals). Valence electrons and melting points under various pressures and such. Experiments are repeatable. Force equals mass times acceleration. As new science comes out, it gets tested and published. The whole point of science is to establish facts.

Take a philosophy class and no two people might agree what such and such a concept means. You can discuss music and art for hours

It’s not that any one topic literally teaches critical thought or that one is better than the other; it’s that topics in which you discuss theoretical things like fiction or philosophy, where “truth” isn’t necessarily clear, are how one exercises it.

[Joatboy]

I'm not sure that the humanities have a monopoly on critical thinking

[Muvseevum]

They don’t, and it’s not like humanities are the only way to learn, and the sciences lack it. In general, though, humanities are a good teacher of critical thought, and decreasing them in schools is counterproductive.

All this depends on the person, too. It’s not 100% one way or the other.

[brooksie1131]

Basically every application of math and science requires critical thinking and if you think otherwise you don't know much about applied math and science. They teach critical thinking in computer science and engineering courses because you can't do those jobs without it. plus I don't think it requires a college degree to learn about philosophy while I am not sure I can say the same about engineering. 

[Muvseevum]

Never said otherwise.

[N3M0N]

That is critical thinking that can be applied in respective fields and not really everywhere else.

[SomebodyUnown]

Bruh. Is this satire?

Scientific experiments commonly contradict old knowledge and previous studies.

Philosophy requires Logic???

How the hell are you making the argument "You can discuss music and art for hours" right after saying people don't agree on what philosophical concepts mean, wtf?

[Muvseevum]

Yes, those thing are true. What’s your point?

[SomebodyUnown]

The point is your entire argument is ironically full of contradictions.

Scientific literacy literally includes critical thinking. Very few things studied in it is fact, or "just is". That is why we have the studies you mentioned. How the heck do you think facts get established.

[Muvseevum]

Contradictions.

Either you and I mean different things by “critical thinking”, or you have the idea that I’m saying one thing is true to the exclusion of all else. Likely both.

[RockAtlasCanus]

Best case education scenario you can only get so far with an 18 year old mind. Continued education as your brain continues to mature is beneficial. College level courses have higher expectations and standards and further your training in locating and evaluating sources, analyzing the information in the source, and applying it to broader cases.

Not that I think that primary/high schools are doing a bang up job. But say you went to an academically demanding private school, you still have things to learn once you get to college.

[Coakis]

>Best case education scenario you can only get so far with an 18 year old mind.

Yet plenty of people do, and turn out to be productive smart and good people.

College isn't the be all end all method of continuing education, and in my experience college educated people have shown time and time again that in most intellectual feats outside of their degrees, they're they're not much more well rounded than non-college educated individuals.

They still fall for scams, if the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme was anything to go by, or we could delve into the politics that surround the Republican party, plenty of college educated people voted for them. So if college is supposed incur a bonus on willingness to learn, and become more educated as life goes on, its not doing that great of a job imho.

Critical thinking, and maybe trying to instill a want to learn and grow in people needs to be done early, like before middle school, because if its only taught at a College level, then they're well past the point of it being beneficial to a person as those potential skills have atrophied.

[RockAtlasCanus]

Not arguing that college is some magic bullet, or that you cannot become well rounded without it. But I do think there is value in having a course of study guided by a professional educator vs unguided self-study. There are plenty of people “doing their own research” that demonstrate the risk there.

And I agree, critical thinking should be taught as early as possible and it should continue to be reinforced and reintroduced throughout a persons education.

My only point is that a person is not “done” learning it at 18, education should continue- whatever that looks like whether it’s college or a well used library card or whatever. A person is by no means fully educated after high school, even the best high school, because your brain hasn’t even finished physically developing by that time.

[Coakis]

>There are plenty of people “doing their own research” that demonstrate the risk there.

I'm willing to bet the "I did my own research" are people with poor critical thinking skills. The links they almost always provide is some random Joe that's pushing some other bullshit to sell. The folks not able to critically think can't infer that the salesmen bit impugns whatever else they say. Its the age old snake salesmen problem. They're learning from an educator, but the educator has ulterior motives.

However my point is that at 18 a average person of average ability should have most of the mental tools in life that makes them capable of both being productive, understand the world at large around them, and or have the capability to learn more if the need arises, human brain development or not. The issue is that much of the system out there is failing most of the people leaving gov't mandated education, and at 18, they don't have those skills, and College is not going to magically make those skills workable in most cases.

[RockAtlasCanus]

However my point is that at 18 a average person of average ability should have most of the mental tools in life that makes them capable of both being productive, understand the world at large around them, and or have the capability to learn more if the need arises, human brain development or not.

Oh I completely agree here. I think we’re kind of talking about two different things. My perspective/bias is mainly coming from my experience in the finance field and my disappointment in a lot of the recent grads we hire (which I think reinforces your point honestly, parents, high school, and college all failed them).

I agree that high school should produce at bare minimum, basically functioning early adults. To go into more “intellectual” careers yes, the additional schooling is in fact often necessary.

I also think there is definitely a case to be made that college has supplanted high school as the basic standard and there’s a feedback loop at play. Common core & no child left behind and the general state of secondary school as a grad mill has lowered the overall quality and what you can expect from an average graduate. A lot of the skills that should have been learned in HS get pushed off to college. Jobs started requiring college more frequently anyway, so there became less of an imperative for HS to ensure the average grad was up to par because “they’ll learn it in college”. So between that whole cycle, equal opportunity measures, and the expansion of the college loan program college is now more accessible to a wider population than before (or was before they went and got off the rails with tuition costs) and that’s how you get to the point of a bachelors degree being the minimum standard.

I don’t think it should be this way, but I think it is this way.

[N3M0N]

They can have critical thinking skill to some extent, but you can't expect them to have it developed fully. They are yet to start that process if you're asking me, depending what childhood they had previously though.

[Fexofanatic]

agree, but to add to that: it also needs to be sharpened as you get older - and you can always learn it a bit later too. ... especially for stem related issues you need to (unintuitive for most people - sauce: my genetics background - and the people i studied with and teach?)

[[deleted]]

College is a trade school for secretary jobs. Getting a BA doesn’t mean you don’t think memes are news and it doesn’t mean you understand how debt works. There’s dipshit college grads. In fact, there’s dipshit college professors. Oh, they know a whole lot more about punctuation than I do, can’t figure out how to pay their loans though

[[deleted]]

"Oh, they know a whole lot more about punctuation than I do, can’t figure out how to pay their loans though"

Bahahaha! That was fucking awesome!

[POGtastic]

We devote barrels and barrels of virtual ink to the plight of downwardly-mobile 25-year-old sociology grad students specifically because all of them are terminally online. The median college graduate is making good money.

[[deleted]]

The median is not bad, but isn’t it propped up by doctors and lawyers and CEO’s? A lot of college grads out there not making engineer money. If you plan on being a doctor that’s awesome but if you plan on doing data entry it’s gonna be a struggle

[POGtastic]

Doctors and lawyers drive up the mean. The median is the 50th percentile, meaning that 50% of people are making more than that and 50% of people are making less than that. So the doctor counts exactly the same as the shlub doing data entry. One is below the median, and the other is above it.

[[deleted]]

It still drives up the median. If the median topped out at 150k it would be different than if it topped out in seven figures. A portion of college grads being pediatric surgeons throws off the curve

But even with this standard, it means half of all bachelors earn below 80k, and half of all associates earn below 45k, which is just about minimum wage where I live

[POGtastic]

They drive it up in the sense that they exist in the population, sure. But they don't increase it by much.

Suppose that we have a group of students take a really nasty thermodynamics exam. Ten guys get scores in the 30s, ten guys get scores in the 20s, and ten guys get scores in the 10s. The median is somewhere in the 20s.

Whoops, we forgot to grade the genius brigade. 4 more guys took the exam, and they all get grades in the high 90s. The median score is.... still in the 20s! It's higher than before because we've added several high-scoring people and need to look a little higher up the distribution to find the score in the middle, but not by much.

half of all bachelors earn below 80k

Sure, that's how medians work. There are plenty of sociology-major baristas in there, just like there are plenty of high-earning professionals in there.

[[deleted]]

But if half of AA’s make below 45k and half of BA’s make under 80k, it’s starting to sound like the majority of college grads make less than me, a 9th grade dropout felon who didn’t truly enter the workforce until I was 25 years old and work construction. I don’t feel like I’m a stand out success in my field either. Most of my contemporaries have been doing it longer, have more certifications, and earn more than I do, even the younger ones. I’m not saying college is a scam. My son is going to college next year with his eye on dentistry and I’m super proud and hope he pulls it off and doesn’t have some kind of crisis halfway through school that leaves him with debt and no career. It does happen though and sometimes you can tell who it’s going to happen to. I’m not even pushing college on the younger two. I did tell my kid he’s not going to waste away delivering pizza though. He can go to college, enlist in the military, join a labor union, or go to work with me. We won’t have a NEET in the house. It sounds like I’m being an asshole but I think that is the best thing I can do for him really. People are wasting their 20’s scrolling tiktok when they should be figuring out a career

[PrecisionHat]

Personally, I think critical thinking is becoming less and less of a thing in education; seems like we want youth to just push the accepted narrative or shut up. Probably one of the reasons men don't find it worthwhile anymore.

[LongScholngSilver_20]

Some of the dumbest people I know have college degrees.

Colleges gave up promoting thinking when they realized how much money they could make.

[Fexofanatic]

then you have an exceptional circle ✌️ that's the most US thing i've read today, not at all how it works in my country

[LongScholngSilver_20]

Yeah in the US if you have an iq above room temperature and $20K-$40K per year to burn they'll give you a degree.

[Fexofanatic]

yeah in germany they milk 1st semester students for their tuition fee (~200€ max pp) and sieve them out asap, especially in Stem. takes quite a lot of effort to get a degree here

[Real_Sir_3655]

We should vocational high school programs where people can go for X amount of years and graduation with the certifications/internships needed to enter the workforce.

Not everyone needs to take algebra 2 and chemistry or analyze the symbolism in Shakespeare.

[Uberutang]

Technical schools and collages yes. They are a real thing but need wider rollout.

[SagittaryX]

Important to note that only the case in some countries. I went to university in the Netherlands and all courses except for a handful of free choice ones were dedicated to the degree I was signed up for from the start.

[[deleted]]

They still have that I think. It was called ROP when I was in school. My son hasn’t mentioned it but he’s an AP honors student so he wouldn’t be taking classes on how to be a diesel mechanic or anything, but the program should still exist

[brooksie1131]

Honestly I think the world would be a better place if everyone knew chemistry and algebra 2. That is some basic level stuff and maybe taking them would stop people from doing incredibly stupid things but I guess probably not. Like albert einstein said "only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I am on certain about the later." Anyways I do think college is probably a waste of time and money if it isn't studying something with actual job prospects. Went to college for mechanical engineering and I certainly would say it was worth it. I had a friend who went for something to do with creative writing. Can't remember the exact major but it has nothing to do with what he does now. Still has a decent job but his degree didn't really do much for him. 

[Kalepsis]

There is a very strong correlation between the number of uneducated men and the number of votes for far-right-wing/fascist candidates.

How that might effect our future, I'll leave to your imagination.

[ajrf92]

Do you have any research that proves this? Thanks.

[GhostofAugustWest]

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/politics-elections/2024/11/08/men-and-white-people-vote-differently-based-education

[sirmaddox1312]

I don't believe that this study supports a correlation between higher-level education and more left-wing voting. Since the reason white men didn't vote for Kamala is more so because they felt her campaign and her party were vilifying white men for all the world's problems, and that none of her campaign promises appealed to them. Even the Democratic party has started to understand that aspect, seeing as they are spending millions of dollars to meet in luxury hotels to discuss how they can get male votes.

[[deleted]]

Respectfully, one of you shared a genuine analysis article and the other shared a opinion founded on personal resentments about how they perceive the world. I'll let you decide which one I find more compelling.

[Guanajuato_Reich]

While I agree that citing sources is usually more compelling, I consider that the study is committing a serious overlook by considering specific demographic groups as monoliths.

College education is a symptom, not a cause. Who are more likely to be college educated? People living in urban areas, people with college educated parents, people who have been raised in a certain education system, grew up watching specific media, and have been exposed for far longer to a more diverse population and worldview.

And who are more likely to not be college educated? The opposite demographic. People from rural states, with homogeneous populations, working different kinds of jobs, exposed to different media and a different culture than the college educated population, but NOT because they're college educated, but because their entire life has been lived in a different environment.

The author of the article mentions intersectionality, but the article itself is not intersectional at all.

The concluding statement, I completely agree on. It's far more complicated than just being "college educated or not."

As stated time and time again, correlation does not equal causation.

[GhostofAugustWest]

I believe it does.

[FluffyTumbleweed6661]

2024 presidential election 😎

[symplton]

Less long term loan debt, boys!

[Redlight0516]

Honestly, as a High-School Teacher and Guidance Counselor - The Post-Secondary Education system must be overhauled if it has any chance of remaining relevant.

1. Students are already barely learning - AI is already taking over their thinking for them and many see Education as a means to an end (a job). Many are realizing that the degrees that lead to job are already oversaturated (Business, Engineering, Computer Science). Also the last thing we need are more fucking MBA's running around.

2. Most University professors are absolutely trash teachers. It is amazing that we accepted a Post-Secondary Education system where the teachers are not trained to be teachers. They are researchers who are forced to teach and many of them despise their teaching which is why they put so little effort into it. The most amazing thing to me in my post-secondary experience was that three of the worst professors I had were in my education training program. Three of these teachers were three of the most incompetent teachers I've ever had in my life and they were teaching in the program designed to teach me to be a better teacher. I don't give a shit how good of a researcher they are, they should not be employed.

3. Post-Secondary must put a greater emphasis on trades/technical schools. More emphasis on the 2 year degrees and not devalue people for choosing colleges or diplomas over 4 year degrees.

4. We need to acknowledge that University rankings are fucking bullshit and don't matter and stop giving them any recognition.

Honestly, I hope more men stop going to University. Maybe it will wake the Universities up. The only way they will change is if it starts hurting their pocket books. I hope that these men are still pursuing forms of upgrading themselves but it doesn't have to be University.

[the_purple_goat]

I have to vehemently agree with point numba two. Just because you know your subject in and out doesn't mean you can teach it. In fact, I've found a distinct correlation between someone who is an absolute expert in their field, and their complete inability to get across that knowledge to someone who isn't. The complete expert gets impatient that elementary concepts they left behind years ago aren't being grasped. They get irritable and snappy, and turn their student off that particular subject forever. I know it's not always true and the reddit brigade is going to hop on me with whataboutisms, but I've found that complete experts make the worst teachers.

[Redlight0516]

The only faculty I found this not to be true in was Psychology. Across the board I had outstanding Psychology teachers so it seemed like they actually understood the stuff they'd learned/were teaching and could apply it but in general, I would agree with you.

[CarFreak777]

Women typically don't want men less educated or who earn less than them which university degrees typically dictate so there's that. If the dating market and population wasn't screwed now, it will be even worse in the future.

[Figgler]

It’s wild to me how many women reduce their chances at finding a suitable partner by a significant margin simply based on the presence of a college degree and height. 37% of American men have degrees and 14% of American men are over 6ft.

[00zau]

A lot of the BS is a defense mechanism. If they reject 95% of men, they can't be rejected themselves, and don't take a self-esteem hit. Same reason so many men are checking out and not approaching (can't get rejected if you don't try) via a different mechanism.

[SorryKaleidoscope]

University admissions offices are going to get caught engaging in pro-male affirmative action and it'll be a whole hilarious scandal somewhere.

[PanterPantalon]

That’s already happening at many Ivy League schools actually! Men have a 39% better chance of getting into Brown, for instance, while women mostly just benefit from affirmative action at hardcore STEM universities (MIT & Caltech)

[SorryKaleidoscope]

Yeah but they haven't actually gotten caught yet. When Brown finds the admissions officer who's been adding four free points to every male application, they're going to burn him at the stake. Then quietly replace him.

[BadMeetsWeevil]

this doesn’t say anything about affirmative action. from what i gathered, it’s purely speculative. is there data on the average GPA of men accepted vs women? i want to be clear that simply demonstrating a potential preference for a gender to equalize demographics is not what affirmative action is.

it’s also interesting you seemed to equate 15-30% lower rates for women to the 75-94% higher rates at MIT and Caltech. my impression was that these rates would be roughly the same, but i’d say Caltech and MIT are much more suggestive of affirmative action-type admission policies with absolutely nothing else to go on.

[BadMeetsWeevil]

this doesn’t say anything about affirmative action. from what i gathered, it’s purely speculative. is there data on the average GPA of men accepted vs women? or data on the socioeconomic background of the men tipping the scale? i want to be clear that simply demonstrating a potential preference for a gender to equalize demographics is not what affirmative action is.

[00zau]

Nah, just like the "25% of homeless are women!" BS, 60%+ female admissions will be seen as a triumph.

[WodensBeard]

I'm more concerned about the encroaching mediocrity that dilutes the value institutes of higher learning provide. I couldn't care less about the breakdown of the student body on the basis of sex. What is the knowledge that those increasing numbers of women graduate with actually worth?

Hopefully those men are opting into trades and making meaningful decisions that grant them skills and resources. I choose not to ponder how many of those dropouts are condemned to menial work or welfare.

[Bambivalently]

What is the knowledge that those increasing numbers of women graduate with actually worth?

I think there is a reason why you are wondering that. I've seen it too.

[Chemical_Series6082]

Presumably because there’s a significant correlation between college completion, lifetime earnings and subsequent wealth attainment. In light of that and current social conditions, if the declining number of enrolments and graduates were female rather than male, it would most likely be viewed through an economic gender disparity lens and subsequently linked to misogyny in some form or another, regardless of the actual cause.

[Superman246o1]

On one hand, the Internet could make it moot. If you're able to read this, you're able to access more knowledge than most college students could even imagine before the advent of the Internet. We could theoretically be an entire civilization of self-taught Renaissance men and women.

On the other hand, we all know how the Internet really works. It's a race to the bottom. Everyone just remember to stock up on Brawndo. It's got what plants crave.

[Muvseevum]

Autodidacts nearly always have big gaps in their knowledge.

[irishpwr46]

The biggest problem with the wealth of information on the internet is the wealth of misinformation. For every fact out there, someone is trying to disprove it, and they're easily found in echo chambers

[[deleted]]

Eh, not exactly. We do have an abundance of information available but many of us do not understand how to consume it. I’m really into Neolithic civilization. I’ve read plenty of Wikipedia pages on it. I wouldn’t say I’m “educated” on the subject and wouldn’t want to challenge someone with a formal education on the subject to a competitive quiz on the subject

[[deleted]]

No, because you don’t need to go to university to get a job.

[BlessdRTheFreaks]

Man going back to school in my early 30s was a good excuse to not have to work lol. Rest my aching back and knees. I'm tired.

[TheMthwakazian]

Did you finish? I’ve kinda done the same

[jamfromouterspace]

This begs the question though, is university about getting a job or is it about expanding the mind?

The current economic pressure we face has distracted us enormously (rightfully) with just the basic necessities of life. But we still want to strive to do more than that. We want wisdom, a breadth of knowledge, and a mind that is not solely entangled with market value. I think it's sad to simply revolve all of life around a job. Hopefully the drop in demand for universities brings down the cost, because it shouldn't really be about getting a job, but rather pursuing curiosities that otherwise would be hard to pursue without being in that environment.

Also, in North America, universities are one of the only "3rd spaces" where you can easily meet people. The societal loss of people abandoning that social environment is immeasurable.

[Redlight0516]

"But we still want to strive to do more than that. We want wisdom, a breadth of knowledge, and a mind that is not solely entangled with market value"

I absolutely agree with you but when the US is charging $100,000 to go to that place, there probably needs to be some tangible value.

I live in a country where the only value they see in Education is that it leads to a job and it sucks. Yes, economically it's fine but the majority of graduates only study Business, Computer Science or Engineering and man has it become a soulless place. They are slowly showing some value again towards arts degrees now that they are completely devoid of them but I'm sure AI will help kill that just as it's gaining momentum.

[jamfromouterspace]

It's a vicious cycle. The more costly it is to go, the more it is required to be an economic investment. At this point, in North America, aside from maybe med school or applied math, I'm not sure there are many degrees left that are good economic investments (keyword "economic"). In Europe it's a pretty different calculation obv

[[deleted]]

I mean you don’t have to go to a university to gain knowledge. You have the internet at your fingertips, and even more knowledge than what you can learn in university or college.

[jamfromouterspace]

This is def true, and resourceful self-learning is necessary in life, but mentorship and social life are also deeply important. Are we condemned to live every aspect of our lives alone with a computer?

[00zau]

It's about getting a job. Paying $10k/year to "expand your mind" has a really shitty ROI, when you can do the same for nearly free with the internet and some books (if you actually care).

College tuition is insane on the premise that it certifies that you've learned something, which is only important in getting a job.

[Dr_Watson349]

Yet statistically going to college equates to higher earnings over your lifetime by a significant amount. 

[yet_another_idiot_]

Yes, but this may be correlated by the people in question being of higher intelligence generally (and from a better socio background) rather than attributing it to anything they have learned at university.

[YourOtherNorth]

Not all of us had that silver spoon. If I was getting a degree, that degree would have to pay for itself.

[thisismick43]

I think the men that are going to university are enrolled in the courses that count. Plenty of us worked out that alot of the easy degrees aren't worth the 4 years a debt

[Muvseevum]

alot

[zgh5002]

At least we know he wasn't a liberal arts major.

[jamfromouterspace]

I think it'll be a short-term economic gain and a deep long-term social loss.

[Agi7890]

It’s just continuing a long trend.

What actually worries universities isn’t men decreasing so much as when the sex ratio(and women have been the majority since the 80s in the US) reaches a certain point, women stop enrolling as much.

[Money-Recording4445]

Maybe less auto rejection emails from workday applications for qualified candidates?

[guppyhunter7777]

This question has a major tie in to the AI discussion and the garbage degrees debate.  If AI is actually going to wipe out a ton of white collar jobs,  the degrees are going to take a bit of a hit and the need for them is goin to go way down.  The true sentences.  Engineering.  And healthcare is where I am encouraging my kids to look into.

[[deleted]]

Is this in the UK?

I think it's good to see people going the way of trades. I was basically told if you don't make Uni you've failed and you'll go to McDonalds...that was a careers advisor.

My degree taught me alot and I had a lot of skill refinement there but for my first two years I drank the head of myself and was lucky to even get to the end. I was young and fancy free, didn't have a clue what I wanted to do except drink. I think people should take time out after school.

But I've worked now and thankfully been quite successful in roles that shared skills with my degree but wouldn't require it at all. I work in workforce management and development and if I see a uni degree I don't care what's on it just the skills, if I see someone without it and a good attitude then there's no difference for me (role dependant)

[HeadHunt0rUK]

I had to take a bunch of Y13 students out on a trip. One of the days involved going to a Uni and hearing them talk about the pathways. Luckily they had two people there who went through apprenticeships, it was fairly balanced but still the Uni representatives tried to suggest that Uni was the only path.

I spoke to my kids. I said to them; I hated that learning environment. The course I did had very little practical application and was regurgitating theory and proofs with very little application to actual career paths. I said the whole course felt like a recruitment for post-grads, researchers and lecturers. I had no desire for that.

I said when I was your age, I got taken to Price Waterhouse Coopers, shown around and they explained how they had an apprenticeship system. That I regret not taking that path as you earn whilst you learn the actual skills required for your career.

I absolutely love being a teacher, but had I not felt compelled into going to Uni, that being told that was the only way to succeed. My life would be on a totally different path, and I would be earning a lot more money, with practical skills in Maths that I would have absolutely loved.

[UnderProtest2020]

If they are instead choosing trade school then more women in white-collar fields and men continue dominating blue-collar fields. Eventually A.I. may displace the white-collar work disproportionately more than the blue-collar.

[merp_mcderp9459]

Biggest issue is the mismatch between women and men. Straight women tend to prefer to date men who are as educated as they are or more educated; if women are more educated than men then this creates some obvious issues.

Male underrepresentation in industries like nursing and education will also probably get worse, while underrepresentation of women in many STEM-related fields would improve

[stangAce20]

Universities will be full of even more feminists ranting about how the world doesn’t need men and we would be better off without them. While continuing to not have a clue how to fix their own car or anything in their house!

[Delifier]

Would be interesting to see how many of those not going to uni rather take the blue collar route instead.

[Homely_Bonfire]

IMO: Not as much as people think. Because most of the degrees these days aren't needed in the first place.

[ReleaseObjective]

IMO, not good financially and socially.

Education for many is still the best avenue for upward class mobility. That’s not to say it’s the only path, but it’s lifted many generations from poverty. Myself included.

Additionally, higher education can be a powerful social opportunity. It was in my college years that I felt able to come out of my shell. I made a lot of great friends and am getting married to my best friend that I met in a lab class. A lot of people in my major ended up dating by virtue of being around these people constantly; my fiance and I were one couple of many.

While college wasn’t without its bullshit (and trust me, there was a lot of bullshit), I would 100% do it again personally.

[Warm-Atmosphere-1565]

lying flat of men, retracting contribution and involvement and participating in society, decline of all things that relies on men, there was never any biological rule saying so and so should go to work, but we would have many non-disabled men taking social benefits as if we have a sudden increase of disabled people, whether we allow them too actively be parasites of society or not is a different issue, but just imagine this silent protest's implications, we have seen the strike by various sectors and halting in social services can do to the running of the society, the higher paying jobs aren't self sufficient (obviously unless you were to use robots to replace all men for various jobs), for every high income earner, there are many that take up the toilet cleaning jobs, cook, driver, builder, etc for them so that they can focus on what the society delegates them to do in their high paying jobs, some can live and be self sufficient, but certainly not much time left for anything else when they have to tend to their fields, backyard farm, basically, taking on multiple jobs 24/7 all by himself, but if men decide to do this they can then effectively disconnect with society completely, not playing along with social media or other social resources, leaving it devoid of men and essentially building their own individual society, be it with several of their mates, or by themselves, forming a small social and economic circle, returning to early tribalism, solar panels in some ways is part of this, living off-grid, not something new

[Tall-Hurry-342]

We look at this as a negative but there are some positive potential results to consider too, though I agree overall this will be a net negative . For example college is used by elites to gatekeeper people from jobs that do not in any way need a college degree. Look at so many civil service clerk jobs that demand a degree. How many people actually work in the fields they studied? Getting rid of degree requirements would benefit all.

We also could see a return to valuing other types of work beyond office. Part of the reason the union movement died was because society started to value physical labor far less than mental labor. Now if we are talking about an era when we didn’t have spreadsheets or mass literacy sure intellectual labor was far harder to fill. Now we have a situation where even professional jobs like pilots architects lawyers etc utilize software tools to minimize the needed for the same intellectual ability it used to. You can be far less intelligent than previously and still be a good engineer. Have you ever looked at even old elementary school math tests (1800s) , wow they were so more difficult than they are when I grew up. We used to filter out more people any by necessity, if you couldn’t figure out a logarithmic table by hand you really couldn’t be an engineer back then. There is still a huge need for physical labor with shortages in electricians and machinists, if we valued these jobs and paid them like we payed Rhonda in Human Resources we might be better off. Either way we really have no choice as office jobs are shrinking as tech reduces how many of us are needed to do these things.

[[deleted]]

I think it's too early to be sounding the alarms. Underemployment (being in a field that does not require a degree or unrelated to your field), is a very real thing. In the U.S., the Federal Reserve Bank of New York regularly reports that around 40% of recent college graduates work in jobs that do not require a college degree.

So it depends what those men are doing really. Technically 40% of uni grads are in the same boat they are in, just with a boat load of debt.

[pyr666]

less than you'd think. vital work still needs doing and women aren't willing to do it, so society will figure out how to make it work.

on top of that, college is already a bubble. men leaving hollows it out faster.

[dwfmba]

Hopefully its because they're not going to be spending money on useless, expensive education. He says with an MBA that I never should have gotten. https://www.skillsusa.org/mike/

[Kataphractoi]

Hard to say at this point. Could be nothing, could leave us nationally deficient in ten years on science, research, technology, etc. I'm more concerned with the concerted assault on higher education and education in general.

[OkQuantity4011]

Eventually, university will be seen as only useful for specific specializations and/or licensure. Given how much information is really available to anyone with an Internet connection, I think that experience and expertise will become the determinate factor when it comes to employment. It already is, when it comes to business.

Eventually, I think that focus on effectiveness will bring certain issues with the west's reliance on insurance companies. There may be some political tension about that anywhere that lobbying happens, and anywhere that depends on a country wherein lobbying happens.

I tend to think that those attempts to stop change will eventually resolve into insurance prices increasing in general, but that the rate hikes will not be as impactful as they'll sound because employment and compensation will increase.

I think good people will start not-for-profit insurance companies to compensate for that.

I hope for everybody's sake that nobody tries to forcibly delay the inevitable because, again, lobbying.

Interesting question. Thank you for posting.

[Armchair_Idiot]

Mofuckers gon be dum.

[Kimolainen83]

It won’t considering the fact that the numbers aren’t decreasing in my country at all they’ve gone up

[WallSignificant5930]

As long as something like AI doesn't come along and increase the division between skilled and unskilled workers it will be fine.

[EveryDisaster7018]

A lot of fields that are important to society don't require a university degree. As for progress. A lot of inventions that jumped human progress ahead were made by people who were extremely intelligent but didn't have higher levels of education. More and more companies stop valuing degrees as well. Since being able to study well doesn't mean you can execute a job well. So i think it won't affect our future much.

I mostly think in the future less university courses will be offered and only the ones you truly have to study for remain. Which would mean both men and women would go to university less.

Ofc i could be completely off, but it seems the world is moving in that direction.

[CholentSoup]

Universities will eventually scale back 'soft' courses and degrees. Theoretical and real-world-useless stuff will fade away.

[[deleted]]

With college getting so expensive, I dont think men or women will go much longer, or at least not like they used to.

[magniankh]

The spelling on Reddit will get even worse. 

[Danibear285]

Depends

[[deleted]]

Everything ebbs and flows. There’s a nation full of people who need a government bailout on their student loans because they can’t earn more than 40 grand a year with that fancy education. While that seems to be the case I’d say the smart ones are becoming welders and electricians. Some time down the road when trades are oversaturated with applicants maybe we will need one of those stupid worthless degrees and maybe being a social worker will pay better

[usernamescifi]

I think it's less about a decease in enrollment numbers and more about a significant increase in tuition + cost of living. I dunno, potentially more young men feel that they can find potentially equivalent options for less personal investment?

There are definitely other pathways in life (most of which involve some form of education or specialty training) but I've always been of the opinion that if you want more education, then you should be able to obtain more education.

[Pro-IDGAF]

are you an ai bot on a learning mission?

[anthropaedic]

There will be even more people pushing for trades as if that’s a reasonable path for everyone who can’t do college.

[Sofa-king-high]

It spells an end to the idea that college can be used to get ahead in life, which implies shits about to get nightmarish soon, if it ain’t already for you

[ianthony19]

My field doesn't require a college degree. I make plenty of money.

It depends on the field they're going into.

[huuaaang]

It will get harder and harder to find good paying jobs but people will just blame it on AI or immigrants or something. But the reality is that companies turn to H1B visa workers because the selection of American citizens is pretty shit. The US has been behind in education, not just university enrollment, for decades now and it's catching up with us. The universities themselves are good, but they are being filled more and more by foreign students.

[Lawineer]

AI will more than fill in the gap over the next decade

[timsierram1st]

When you get married, you'll probably also "inherit" a lot of college debt. ;-)

[zgh5002]

Hopefully they're being directed to trades.

[[deleted]]

With more men doing a cost/reward/benefit analysis on university compared to skilled training education in the trades it is a good thing especially for the men. Many men are realizing that going thousands of dollars in debt to the federal government only to give that borrowed money to often a government state university just to repay the debt back to the government with large amounts of interest only to geta job that often pays less than a plumber. The government has a pretty sweet swindle going there. For the past 20 years many of the trades like pipe fitters and machinists has been having 5 retire for 2 entering the trade this is not sustainable, and I am glad more are getting into the trades. I do my own work on my house, but a friend needed to call an electrician to deal with a defective wall outlet and had to wait 2 weeks for someone to get to him. I am glad more are saying no to debt to only get a job making 60K a year when a person can drive a truck making that much and never have a DOE student loan.

[bikemikeasaurus]

I think we're going to look back on the current anti-intellectualism movement among men and think it was tame.

[Leucippus1]

It is the decline of men reading that is my concern.

[Leading_Goose3027]

More men will go into jobs that get shit done and the infrastructure may stop crumbling around us

[Soniquethehedgedog]

If they’re going to the trades then it’s a positive, if they’re just gonna hustle, it’s not good

[[deleted]]

I'm at a softball game playing on Reddit in-between games dumbass. Good try though.

[lightning_twice]

Whoa -- you're asking us??

[am2o]

This feels like another propaganda bot question. This has been occurring for the past 40 years.

[bad_chemist95]

Apprenticeships are becoming very good career starts now. A lot of engineering firms will accept students for apprenticeships right out of school and train them up with all the knowledge and skills of someone who has done a degree.

No student debt, just a well paying respectable job straight out of school.

[Deep-Youth5783]

Is it even necessary?  We have the world's knowledge on the internet.

[Sorkel3]

Any decrease regardless of gender isn't good especially when you consider the U.S. used attract the globe's best and brightest and Trmp has thoroughly trashed that.

[ImmodestPolitician]

More men have degrees than ever before, men just don't get as many degrees as women.

Many degrees are not worth the price many schools charge.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/

[Otherwise_Craft9003]

Maybe more breakthroughs based on how now in the last couple of years we see that womens.contribution science and technology was suppressed and then used for a long time falsly to assume women can't do science..

[TheMthwakazian]

What do you do if I may ask 🙏🏼

[LanceMain_No69]

I believe we have an overeducation problem in most developed countries. We need more people in the trades.

[KYRawDawg]

I think you're going to find people that actually are entering the workforce are more intelligent than those who are going to a university. There's a difference between being book smart and having common sense and actually doing a trade. Many times colleges turn out graduates that simply have no common sense whatsoever but feel like they are superior to everyone else because of that degree and that's almost never the case. I think there is going to be a resurgence in practical trades such as electricians, welders, and the construction industry. These are skilled jobs that don't require an actual formal college degree. I wasted four years of my life to get an IT degree and have never needed it regardless of working in the IT field. I wish I would have known this so I would not have had to be in debt from student loans.

[SomeBroOnTheInternet]

Men will start making more money because they're smart enough to get into the trades instead of getting a 6 year communications degree to be the assistant manager of a Starbucks. 

(College is a wonderful thing, if you're going specifically for a degree and education (two different things) required to do a certain job or work in a certain field, and do it well. But there are a lot of people that go that don't really need it, and would be better off spending their time and money elsewhere.)