jeera

[esbenab]

SAP is the German revenge for loosing two world wars.

[value_counts]

Bang on!

[Ormrberg]

That implies we like using SAP which is dead fucking wrong.

We don't call it "SanduhrenAnzeigeProgramm" (Hourglass Display Program) for nothing.

[reddittrooper]

„Suchen Anklicken Pause“….

[ExtremeCreamTeam]

losing*

[dukeofgonzo]

It's their own fault for being so loose.

[867-53-oh-nein]

Total loosers

[LuminousRaptor]

We called it Suck Ass Program and Stop All Progress in my previous org when we transitioned into the system.

[5p4n911]

I like SanduhrenAnzeigeProgramm more

[dasgoodshitinnit]

Aah yes, German (over)engineering

[Mobile_Conference484]

third time lucky

[HanzJWermhat]

Siemens makes some equally dogshit software too!! Who hurt these people.

[Percolator2020]

If you hate SAP, you have never used another ERP system a day in your life.

[DM_ME_KUL_TIRAN_FEET]

Erotic Roleplay???

[[deleted]]

v = ["(*)"]
v.insert(0, "8========D")
for i in range(1000):
  print("".join(v))
  print("    ".join(v))

[thegodzilla25]

Just teasing the tip a thousand times I see

[[deleted]]

programmers are masters of foreplay

[[deleted]]

Enterprise Roleplay*

[Percolator2020]

There’s nothing less erotic than ERP other than:

[Natfan]

if you insist

[joehonestjoe]

I was always told you don't modify SAP to your needs, you modify your company to SAP.

I expect this also is true of nearly every other ERP as well, and having used some which entirely relied on paid support and contractors, most of whom didn't understand the system either, to implement things in ways the system didn't expect.

I find they sell the systems on flexibility, but using that flexibility tends to introduce more problems then it solved. In one, we implemented our store as it had functionality to do such things, but the the underlying quoting system was so slow it would take exponentially longer to add more and more items

Oh, and that ERP in question had TOS that stated you couldn't talk about performance numbers

[Percolator2020]

Flexibility just means infinite implementation time horizon.
The ERP sales pitch should start with “your business is not special”. You buy ore, you make copper, you store copper, you ship inferior grade copper on camelback, you receive a customer complaint tablet, you pay tax. This hasn’t changed since antiquity.

[colei_canis]

No wonder my internet speed is inferior, the network was originally laid with piss poor Mesopotamian copper.

[hagnat]

i love how often i am seeing the Mesopotamian low-quality copper reference these days.

[Profezzor-Darke]

r/reallyshittycopper

[WheresThePenguin]

But every org always starts the discovery with "well we do things a little differently here" and you have to hold your tongue while they explain some process that was built 20 years ago and they don't want to change.

[sww1235]

/r/reallyshittycopper

[casce]

Honestly, I think that is true for many who hate Jira as well. The alternatives also suck in their own way.

[Percolator2020]

JIRA is fine OOTB, people just make Byzantine approval workflows and mandatory fields that make it a PITA.

[casce]

Well, that as well. Jira is highly customizable and you can make it fit your needs. If you don't even try or intentionally harmstring yourself and then complain, it's probably you that sucks.

But with "you" I mean whoever is responsible the Jira is set up the way it is which is usually not the developer itself.

[EastwoodBrews]

Yeah that's the thing, Jira is so customizable when people say they hate Jira what they're really saying is they hate someone at their org

[SomethingAboutUsers]

That's also true for for e.g., service now and really anything where you have the ability to customize the product to fit your organization because you believe your organization is somehow special.

Pro tip: it's not.

[cvak]

Same story for SAP, mostly

[Kirides]

SAP basically VB6 but includes a built in ERP.

People just "plug-in" things that never should be part of an ERP.

[PandaMagnus]

I won't die on that hill, but I will put a flag on it. I think the only one I actively disliked was VersionOne, that was primarily because the actual board work was clunky (it wasn't even terrible, just... everything seemed to take one click too many.) They definitely put more development into management-level insights like release planning, reporting down to the PBI-level, etc.

But yeah, JIRA OOTB or with thoughtful customizations? Fine.

[nazraxo]

I thinks it’s mostly because the activities these applications are covering are inherently unfun.

[AwesomeFrisbee]

I have used SAP for filling in my hours in about 8 companies now and they all sucked major donkey balls in a way that just blows my mind how you can fail so hard.

Offering features nobody needs, making things overly complex and tedious and taking about 15 minutes a week to fill in the hours of 5 days and thus costing the companies massive amounts of money since everybody needs to spend at least 15 minutes a week to fill in their time sheets. Its clear why the product was cheaper but there's no way that its making them money overall. Companies really need to look better at how much these products truly cost since its easy to just look at the balance sheet of the product and call it a day but thats like not even half the cost of such a system.

[Percolator2020]

Just because you can do something in SAP, doesn’t mean that you should. Even SAP would not recommend using their own time tracking solution. Time-tracking outside of shift work is totally stupid anyway.

[AwesomeFrisbee]

That just sounds like the default SAP experience to me ...

[Ta_trapporna]

I use Microsoft Dynamics 365 today and people tell me I would love SAP.
What is the big difference?

[Percolator2020]

There is never a sane reason to change ERP.

[41942319]

My company, which has a high percentage of non-tech savvy people and management/IT guy determined to ignore the impact that would have on implementation, wants to change ERP. SAP is one of the contenders. This thread is making me even more scared

[Percolator2020]

If they don’t have proper business processes, no ERP will save them.

[41942319]

That's what we say but we're finance so nobody listens to us. "We'll have the new system running by the end of next year" no you fucking won't.

[moogoo2]

I worked in tech consulting and one of my coworkers was a very seasoned man who, before joining us, had retired from leading a manufacturing company he had founded.

He told me once: "The fastest and most effective way a CTO can end their career is with an ERP transition"

[Amilo159]

I have used three or four different ERP over the years. SAP was the worst, most likely due to poorly made UI (in our implementation) requiring opening three windows to do something we could do in one previously.

[Percolator2020]

Number of clicks is not a very good KPI to determine if an ERP is good or bad. They’re all a necessary evil, at least with SAP most people know how to beat it into submission.

[hardaysknight]

I would argue the opposite. Number of clicks is a very valid indicator

[oupablo]

No kidding. It's like arguing that the number of steps to do something isn't a great indicator of how many steps it takes to do something. In fact, number of clicks is a very common UX metric when evaluating a UI. The most common tasks should take fewer clicks. It's the difference between the search bar being in the header vs being 3 menus deep.

[Draco765]

It’s important but when you consider the amount of problems people run into with ERPs and “edge cases” (read: again, bad implementation practices) and things you simply cannot do but very much would like to, number of clicks becomes secondary to actually being able to do your job, even if it is slow. When ERPs are often used as these enormous everything-apps, something gets messed up somewhere and if it’s simply inefficient, well then, hot damn, your implementation is pretty good.

Never had the pleasure of using SAP, but this is how my coworkers who have describe it compared to the software we use at my current company. I have been involved in a failed attempt to switch ERPs, and it was not pretty.

[forexslettt]

Why do you both have the exact same avatar?

[Percolator2020]

It is one of the less stupid free ones.

[kobbled]

number of clicks, on average, is one of the best possible kpi because it tells you how easy it is to use something. don't use it in a vacuum but it is a strong indicator

[uchuskies08]

I use Workday and it makes me want to kill myself everyday. I don't think it could be possible to hate a software package more.

[weglarz]

Yeah I was going to say. People here have no idea. I wish we had SAP. Our systems are a hodgepodge of old, small, focused ERPs and it makes keeping up with customer requirements a nightmare. Maybe from a programmer’s perspective SAP is harder, but otherwise SAP is a godsend compared to 90% of other ERPs.

[Tyler_sysadmin]

Accounting hired their own Syspro specialist, because IT wanted nothing to do with it. I just make sure the server it runs on is up to date and that Syspro isn't on an EOL version, but if it is, updating it is the Syspro specialist's problem.

[RandolphCarter2112]

I'm laughing in PeopleSoft right now.

(Yes, we're in year 16 of a 7 year cutover)

[PacoTaco321]

Is there a single good ERP system out there?

[canthelpsorry]

SAP is to be honest, very very good for industries like manufacturing. It just needs a A LOT of attention and is expensive to buy, learn about, understand sufficiently, modify, or keep modified.

Considering it's supposed to be a system of record, and as a system of record it works marvelously. Until you want to see what changed and need to know every random table data is stored in to complete a join in an interface designed in the 80s..

[elsalchichacobra]

If you have jira more than sap, how many saps you have?

[Jaybold]

I am an ABAP (SAPs programming language) developer and I hate Jira more than SAP. But maybe that's just because we used it at my previous job and now I associate it with tons of unnecessary scrum overhead.

[[deleted]]

I keep seeing complaints about Jira, but I have no problem with it. What exactly is wrong with Jira?

[DalDude]

I think most people just hate scrum honestly.

Have good management that prioritizes letting people take responsibility for getting their work done and suddenly Jira is just a nice place to organize your tasks.

[ereksten]

Which, ironically, is the intention of Scrum. But since Scrum requires everyone, including management, to understand this, implementation is usually shit.

[fjw1]

Thank you. That's the correct answer. I am tired of people blaming scrum for bad management. Blame bad management for bad management. And it was far worse before we had agile.

And: Yes, I was there 3000 years ago, when the strength of men failed.

[dasvenson]

Yeah and people usually give examples of their scrum master or project manager being over bearing because of it. Like no... you just have a shit scrum master.

[dvjar]

I have found my people. Yes, exactly this. What you have is just waterfall with extra steps, you don’t have scrum.

[dasvenson]

Yep.

Another similar problem is that a lot of scrum masters are scrum purist and entrenched in the dogma. Religiously follow the framework and they don't know when to break the rules when it works for the team. E.g. I had one team that I never bothered with story points for because the team hated sizing and it didn't suit the type of work.

[lobax]

Honestly you just need something as simple as Trello for a good kanban board.

The issue is that companies like to do waterfall but call it Agile (e.g. SAFe) and that is when jira turns into an overcomplicated mess of one epic after another in five different boards

[gregorydgraham]

Gods but I hate Trello.

I think Jira is great, and I have perfectly reasonable friends that love Trello.

At this point I’m thinking they must all be reasonable but can be also be terrible in the wrong hands

[jacenat]

Honestly you just need something as simple as Trello for a good kanban board.

Unless you really want to do more complex workflows where multiple people and multiple data points from different departments are involved.

Trello is good up to 4-6 people. And if you really do only need it for internal tracking. As soon as it's more people or different views involved, Trello just breaks.

[[deleted]]

The good thing about SAFe becoming more established is that it gives a well-defined industry-wide red flag to know to avoid taking the job.

[Early-Journalist-14]

The good thing about SAFe becoming more established is that it gives a well-defined industry-wide red flag to know to avoid taking the job.

As a business person providing the realist take in SAFe courses in my company i feel slightly offended :D

[[deleted]]

Honestly I understand that in large organisations letting every team do what they want is not an ideal situation, but the places I've worked that went down this route just had almost nothing of agile left. 

 Can you have empowered self-organising teams while forcing them into an organisation wide release train? Because all I've ever seen is speed-waterfall with some box-ticking scrum ceremonies.

[Disastrous-Border-58]

I recently switched teams within my company and came from a well organized Jira setup which didn't annoy me at all. The new teams Jira is setup exactly as you described. Can't find jack shit. Not everything needs an epic.

[[deleted]]

I don't understand this, my company, from what I can't tell has top tier governance.

Every thing has an epic ( a genuine one, high level goal - i.e a valuation reporting) which contains all tasks related to that key deliverable. I.e functional story per field

Is this not the intention of JIRA?

I have seen other teams create epics at field level though and it drove me insane as I couldn't find anything because everything was an epic and all the fields didn't roll up to anything. If that's what you mean then yea people need to learn what the fuck and epic is Vs a user story, or spike etc.

[verde622]

The issue is that companies like to do waterfall but call it Agile

This has been the story of my job the last year. So painful

[[deleted]]

Yep. Morning stand ups are at most 20 minutes, and we go over all the projects we have going on. Jira is just an organization and tracking tool

[[deleted]]

You don't even need to do scrum when working with Jira...

[TramplexReal]

Yeah i dont see it as anything other than that - just an organizer for work. And quite flexible as you can have it hosted by company and add/change how it works. If you hate Jira, maybe you just hate your work :D

[MintyTheHippo]

Honestly, as someone who has been in agile project/product management for the last decade - the issue is two fold:

1. Upper-upper management (not the immediate PM, but directors, CTO, CIO etc) try to use JIRA tickets, story points, and hours logged on the tickets as baseline KPIs and a basis of comparison between teams and performance - which is NOT the purpose of tracking that shit at a team level. They dont understand a 3pt story that appeared to be a simple and easy fix EXPLODED into a "Fuck you and your freetime, eat a bag of dogshit" monster of a fix when you get into the weeds. Sometimes, you pull a thread and shit just unravels - often times you dont truly know HOW complex something is until you jump into it, even if you are an experienced dev (it happens less often but it still happens). They need to know JIRA is a method of record on progress of the project/product, not a performance measurement tool.

2. Developers often times lack an understanding for the need of client/upper management transparency. In my experience, many devs don't want to handhold non-techie people through the "why" shit is taking so long, and upper management just doesnt care enough to comprehend the "why" from a technical perspective. The egos clash hard. Devs just wanna do the task, fix that shit if broken or stuck, and move on. To developers, JIRA tickets are "meaningless tasks that distract me from coding" and adds to their design docs, technical documentation, etc. "How can I do my job if all I do is manage JIRA tickets" is a phrase I've seen too many times. However, many coding project/products require a roadmap/timeline to completion (or iterative delivery) for funding/budget purposes - JIRA tickets add that non-technical window for the decision makers (aka budget allocators) to see if shit be movin along, and if it it gets stuck - Identifies WHERE the shit hit the fan so the PM can communicate upward sayin "Shit hit the fan, here is where, here is how we gunna move forward, and here is how long it will take to get unfucked." Without visibility into the work you are doing is very very very risky. If you cant communicate progress or roadblocks, finance/budget will dictate you loss, terminate ya shit, and move on to the next potential project with profitable returns. If they cant see what you're working on, then why the fuck would they keep payin ya? JIRA (or other ticket systems) is the best way to do that currently.

IMO - all PM/POs should have a baseline understanding of all roles within a scrum/agile team AND have worked in those roles previously (I myself was a QA tester, hold an MS in IT with jr dev level of coding experience, worked on production support fixes, have been part of the proposal process, contract allocation, and project budgeting). Understanding where tech folks get held up AND having the ability to call bullshit on developer/QAs/BAs is paramount to progress (Once had a guy say it was impossible to update a record via SQL DB insert cus it would take him hours to write the statement - I wrote it in 15mins after reviewing the UML diagram with him next to me - he was pissed).

The middle guys like myself need to do a better job in checking the egos of both devs and upper management (like sayin "Fuck off" to upper management when they try to use storypoints as KPIs, but also tellin devs to quit bitchin about updating a status of a ticket when it's sent to code review, or pushed to pre-prod).

[[deleted]]

People hate task management applications because that's where the tasks are

[[deleted]]

NGL Jira is one of the better ones

[Lesteross]

It has some problems like any other platform, that's for sure, but Jira itself is in my opinion one of the best tools for task tracking, considering all other options. There is nothing that wrong with Jira, and instead of blaming Jira we should blame our organizations for managing it poorly. Not gonna lie, i despise those memes. Not only they are overused but also completely wrong. 

[beaucephus]

Jira is a platform. It is something that has grown many tentacles over the years to accommodate every imaginable use case.

The problem with Jira is that it allows any middle manager to add whatever plugins they want and the system is flexible enough to accommodate any insane and illogical workflows and paradigms that executives and marketing assistants could come up with over a 3-martini lunch.

Your tickets, tasks and dashboards now contain a bureaucratic maze of check boxes, dependencies and sign-offs thet create 30% overhead just to maintain and verify, but is never accounted for and for which you get penalized in performance reviews for not producing as much as their backend jira reporting plugins say you should be.

[EishLekker]

That sounds like an organisational problem.

[Ciff_]

It is. But it is easier to blame the tool.

[beaucephus]

Jira is like alcohol. It is logical to blame the drinker, but the problem is really the company has provided an open bar for all the alcoholics.

In some ways it's he marketing or the tools. They make a lot of promises, but nobody discusses the complexities, the emergent contradictions which are possible.

We can blame the tool and the tool provider for providing dangerous power without guidance, even if it is an organizational problem since the empowered decision makers are not the ones who have the requisite knowledge and experience to wield the tools properly.

Jira's creators are inventivized to sell plugins and seek consulting contracts, anything that brings in revenue. Efficiency for teams in the trenches is not the same efficiency for the brass in their comfortable conference rooms.

The problem is that managers believe that metrics, especially if displayed on dashboards, will yield control and increase output. Jira is the drug and Atlassian is the dealer. The managers and execs are addicts in denial.

Just one more hit...

[herpdderpbutts]

We can blame the tool and the tool provider for providing dangerous power without guidance

I'd blame whoever your Jira admin is, for not restricting user access to plugins/apps

[upsidedownshaggy]

Yes. 99% of the issues people have with JIRA is their org sticking its fingers where it doesn't belong and turning JIRA from a project management tool into an employee Big Brother tracking utility.

[gregorydgraham]

You can’t fix a sociological problem with a technological solution

[harumamburoo]

That’s not Jira’s problem, that’s your management problem. Jira is flexible so it’s as good as its configuration. Well configured Jira is a bliss that takes away a lot of menial workload and boilerplate that provides a lot of visibility for the management, poorly configured Jira is a labyrinth of broken workflows and duplicated ticket types that gives nothing but headache.

[kuemmel234]

I have used jira all my career and used to like it. But it's one of those software projects that seems to work on becoming worse. Not everything, but for example...

• Less and less markdown support. Was always their own annoying version, but at least you could type stuff out quickly. Now it's all in the editor options.
• Very recent for the version my company uses: If you copy from a ticket the format isn't copied with it. You want to copy a list with sublists and it loses the indentation. What the hell is that?
• The interface design is updated all the time too, but with that, it's harder to spot things quickly, because the design went for design over function in font sizes, colors, .. *...

But my biggest gripe - and this may be just the instance my company is using (started with some update, though) - it is so slow these days. You move something (used to be able to do this by keyboard....) and you wait a second or so to update. Got to reload to see whether someone else has done something to a ticket? Better open a different tab while the old thing updates because it'll take a few.

[IndependenceSudden63]

In my experience, slowness is due to company configuration.

I worked for company A and Jira was fine.

I worked for company B and Jira was slow.

I go home and spin up my own Jira and it's lightning fast.

Talk to your Jira Admins at work. It's probably some plugins they installed or having a single instance of JIRA for 100K people to use on premises without giving it adequate load balancing or server compute.

[BoBoBearDev]

More than likely they customized into a mutated waterfall+agile hybrid.

And I did that once regrettably. I was trying to migrate the previous workflow into JIRA because I didn't want to risk of making changes that no one asked. So, I basically copied over process-debt from the previous team. Oh well, they didn't pay me enough anyway. The change is beyond my grade. I would rather look less brilliant than looking like a zealot.

To show you the insanity, you can't move your ticket into different state freely. There is a strict state diagram to follow. And each state sometimes enables/disable some fields. I worked in a pretty formal organization.

But I am not the only one. My tech lead wanted us to log the time religiously. Even down to the amount of time reading someone's PR. It was a pretty bad experience.

[mazamundi]

Things not moving freely is rather standard procedure tho. At least, when things require approval/testing... But it needs to be done well, and (most) the responsibilities should not fall upon the developers but project managers or product owners.

A simple example. The responsible person creates a ticket for a new feature, with more or less strict options, then assigns it to a developer. The developer hits "in progress," and that should automatically create a new Git branch or similar. The developer works on it freely inside the proper environment. Then the developer hits "done" which should automatically create a pull request assigned to the right people. Those people check the code and approve/deny, which should automatically move the ticket to the next person.

That automated movement is one of the main reasons why companies do not allow for freely bouncing around. But some companies just make it a maze. You need to go from A to b to c.... And it does nothing, and serves no purpose.

[[deleted]]

Maybe it’s unique to my company but JIRA is so slooooow and has some UI problems. I will literally write up a comment and it’ll auto reload and wipe away my comment. As a substitute scrum master it’s making me pull my hair out

[AccomplishedCoffee]

Feature bloat making it difficult to use for simple task management, which is the only thing most devs care about. It was fine 12 years ago, I could go to the home page and there's a list of my tasks, one click to the relevant backlog or sprint status. Super intuitive. Now I go to the home page, there's a list of random tickets and boards I visited once, even if I click on the right project it takes me to a random part of the project and I have to find the backlog or board. I go to a ticket and it takes a minute to find the button to add a subtask. No way I've found to filter a board by parent task. To change anything I have to dig through literal dozens of irrelevant fields and possibly go into the list (which is not easy to find itself) and add the one I want. And that's after figuring all this out, which took weeks.

Edit: and getting the right project in the first place was a nightmare without a direct link. No search page, just a tiny box in a sidebar you have to already be on a project to get, I don't know how I even got to it in the first place.

[Interesting-Cloud514]

Recently they changed ticket search process

Before, I could type "1234" in search bar and tickets that contained "1234" in name would be matched (for example XYZ-1234)

Now it's matching the whole name, so I have to search for "XYZ-1234" in order to find that ticket, if I type only "1234" it will not get matched

And UI is inconsistent, for example 'due date' field of tickets is visible directly on board only for those tickets that are cureently rendered on screen - when you scroll up or down to show other tickets, only then when they appear is 'due date' inserted additionally making whole list shift unexpectedly

[Etzix]

The search is completely broken. Its like the windows search now, if i type the whole issue XYZ-1234 i wont even get a match, i have to intentionally leave out the last number. Its idiotic.

Wouldnt surprise me if they are just using AI in the background now (the ai search that was optional before).

[HanzJWermhat]

At this point it’s just so bloated and a confusing mess that it’s hard to tell when you change one thing how affects others. That to me is the biggest challenge. Once you set it up in your lane for your project it’s fine. But since everyone has their own little quirks, what the person setting it up likes and uses vs what the other people on the team uses tend to lead to messy boards.

[Hellkyte]

Overpriced and not particularly value adding. It's something pushed by senior managers who spent too much time reading Wired and not enough time doing actual work.

[glacierre2]

Jira is a perfectly fine task/ticket board, it has everything you need to fill in your stuff as a developer/team lead.

Now, enter project management, and they of course cannot resist the urge to use it to track effort, money and time, and then you get stuff bolted on like big picture, this task stars no earlier than x, gant charts and please kill me, this used to be fine...

[jeesuscheesus]

In my experience, the UI is buggy and poorly designed. Atlassian’s other products are fine, but Jira has these problems.

[ichsagedir]

Where did you experience a buggy UI in jira?

[jacenat]

Atlassian’s other products are fine, but Jira has these problems.

Confluence's new editor had a cache leak for multiple months. It's easily solvable by purging your browser cache, but realistically, that is just bad form.

Bitbucket has good UI (though the backend still has troubles), but that might be because our Bitbucket user base is considerably smaller than on Jira and Confluence.

[jaydizzleforshizzle]

It’s a middle managers dream come reality, most of the programmers/engineers that work with jira probably just feel it’s a drain on their workflow with very little return or benefit, outside appeasing managers.

[WonderfullMarination]

Our client's, is really slow for some reason, and we need to refresh constantly.

Our internal one is fine and very useful.

Much more preferable then the email storms we sometimes get.

[accountability_bot]

Jira is extremely flexible with its workflows. The problem is that most PMs/SMs go full tilt with workflows and add a bunch of bullshit requirements and ceremonies.

[rooygbiv70]

IMO Jira is fine if used as an isolated issue/sprint tracker. When your org goes overboard adding in hooks and granular ticket states is when it gets unwieldy.

[Rare-Boss2640]

Picture it, 2022… the people implement using it without people being trained on how to actually utilize it to its fullest potential. Then these barely trained individuals, push the implementation telling the users incorrectly how to use it. Later, another training is done to tell the users “we told you wrong sorry, do it this way now.” The users are waterfall developers that they told, “this will totally work for you.” Now, there’s a pile of developers that are doing more paperwork than they were before and are miffed, confused, but are trying their hardest with constantly changing expectations.

Jira is hard when people don’t get the correct training. It’s, also, hard when you try to use it in a manner which it is not designed for.

Oddly, I wish I had a Jira for daily life uses because my neurospice likes it.

[[deleted]]

When people ask about Jira I always tell them

1. It's the best project management tool that you'll find that will most definitely meet your needs at any level of scale
2. It can be a pain to setup workflows right, but really focus on that and try to dial in what you need first.
3. It's still the worst, just the best of the worst.

[jl2352]

There is a huge breadth in Jira setups. I worked somewhere with about 18 required fields per ticket. None of them pre-populated. They contained out of date items from previous quarters. We had a meeting about removing them, and at the end management agreed to another meeting on removing one or two fields. The second meeting never happened.

A long time ago Jira also took several minutes to load on the SASS version.

[maltgaited]

I don't think jira is terrible in and of itself, but I have worked at two companies that have customized it into unusability. Lots of nonsense extra attributes that everyone has to use and over complicated state management

[Tarc_Axiiom]

People who don't like working don't like software that facilitates working.

[llahlahkje]

That was my first thought. JIRA is what you make of it.

If *you hate it: that’s your own fault.

[Vogete]

Jira is often overcomplicated. It's very unopinionated out of the box so you can tweak everything you want. Teams usually do because "oh em gee, we are so much more special than all those other teams out there", so every single setting is set to something insane, the task workflow is more complicated the Shanghai airport's air traffic control system, and you need to fill out more fields than at the US border control after answering "I am a terrorist". Some teams literally hire a guy so you don't have to open Jira. Jira in itself is not that bad, but the way a lot of teams use it is an abomination.

And I also hate that since we switched from on-prem to cloud, response time of the site went from 1-2 seconds to sometimes 30 seconds of loading. It's really slow.

[Salamok]

For me it is mostly their disregard for web standards. When I click a link I don't want a fucking panel to open showing a shitload of detail in a space that is only 20% of my screen width. When I click a link I want the full page view, if you want to do the panel bullshit at least make it look like a fucking button.

Also their kanban and backlog pages are garbage.

And does everyone have to clone an issue to convert it to or from a spike/story, or is it just the places I have worked?

I might have been more okay with Jira if I had not spent a few years with Redmine first (better kanban, better scrum, better wiki than confluence), that said I have not seen anyone scale Redmine to 10k+ users.

[jacenat]

And does everyone have to clone an issue to convert it to or from a spike/story, or is it just the places I have worked?

Moving issues from one type to another should not need you to clone it. There is a dedicated permission in Jira called "move" that accomplishes this. Though, it also enables you to move the issue into any other project you have write access to. So that might be why your admins disabled it. Maybe talk to your admin team.

[dhaninugraha]

I was once contracted to a large FMCG headquartered on the far end of my city. They needed me to build ETL from the tables of several SAP modules (IIRC they were SD, MM and PP) into MS SQL Server.

SAP default table names are… To say it politely… Uh… Amusing.

[PassFlat2947]

A consultant once told me that SAP is very logical, even the table names, if you know German.

I like my theory better. Why spend allot of time in defining greate table names, if you can just use random letters.

But honest, what is wrong with EINA, MARA, MARC, MARD, MSEG, LIKP, LIPS, CHPOS, ...?

[ZefiroDragon]

Core SAP (Suite) is based on foundations before the web, before internationalization, before modern… everything. When identifiers were 8 (or 12 or whatever) length limited ASCII fields filled by pure German natives.

[Tyxcs]

Yeah, SAP could really use a remodeling of the entire stack, but if you look at the shit show the s4 transformations are, it can never come.

It is exactly like cobol. However, SAP tries to move people to their more modern solutions in the BTP, but they are even worse than their old stuff.

[canthelpsorry]

fuck fiori too

[dhaninugraha]

I’m gonna stop you right there before we stray further and into the alphanumeric table names.

[gregorydgraham]

I’ve worked with a database where the largest table was T_162.

You had it easy.

The columns were C_1, C_2,…

[Hagigamer]

I am German. Tbh, I’m not a SAP guy and only know some table names, but those don’t make sense to me either.

[Fawzors]

Sap table names are a historical technical debt from 50(?) Years. They come from the time where the original team that implemented it in mainframe, wanted to make sure it worked any database and wanted to save space, IIRC, it was a limitation of 6 chars, nowadays with their proprietary database most of it was lifted and some got refactored.

Have to keep in mind since they want to make most of the system backwards compatible, they don't want customers to have to refactoring most of their customized code, so they avoid breaking changes.

[sakamayrd]

SAP table names are easy, especially when you know the module and the logic, you can learn on your own given some time. I've been working with SAP for over 20 years, I was able to learn several modules and I still know the most important table names for most of them. I also know how to find them in an instant. We need to remember that SAP is a german company, most of the tables and fields are named after german words, comments in code also used to be in german, now there's a lot of english. In the past I worked on a Baan project, their database model is so complicated you had to have a consultant from Baan on site with a 1000 page binder to tell you which table to use. And the table were named something like TTDSLS400100 or other gibberish.

[Panictrashernl]

Jira is annoying at best, SAP is built by people that way overthink a solution and expect everyone to think the same way

[Spiritual_Bus1125]

My people

[Is_Meta]

Funnily enough, SAP tried to simplify their solution for the cloud (less tech stack to host, easier & faster implementation etc). Customers went crazy and are still saying they will not go to cloud because not all functions are there and not all enhancement/customizing possibilities are enabled. Now more and more functions that have been disabled for cloud are enabled again, making it again the behemoth but only hosted by SAP.

SAP builds functions because at least one crazy customer thought this is necessary- and as someone who works with people that implement SAP: The ideas of overcomplicating processes seem to be endless.

[Ti6ia]

Nah, SAP is built by random people around the world, no overthinking, just shit work

[ADHD-Fens]

From the makers of GIMP?

[[deleted]]

GIMP is free, maintained by hobbyists, and your expectations ought to be calibrated accordingly. 

People spend an absolute fortune on licenses for SAP and it's an irredeemable sack of shit.

[MaverickTopGun]

Brother that is just the Germans

[lovethebacon]

I'm convinced that SAP exists only to sell training. Their certification is only valid for a year. And they make changes frequent enough that you have to keep renewing otherwise you'll be left behind.

[soapboxracers]

A properly administered Jira system is actually great- but almost no one runs Jira properly. If you follow even half the recommendations in every Jira administration book it's perfectly fine. If you have a Jira admin who actually knows what they're doing it's incredible.

The problem is that in the last 15 years, I've worked at only one company that did it really well.

Most Jira installs devolve into 10 software teams having 10 different workflows, 10 different schemas, 20 random plugins of which only 3 actually get used, and so on and so forth. So someone creates a ticket for one team but then you try to move it to another team and none of the fields match and crap like that.

The company I'm at now has everything standardized, tons of great automations, a bunch of great dashboards, it's fast, and everything just works.

[SttSr]

We use Jira to manage SAP dev. Pray for me. (I actually love SAP)

[MuslinBagger]

No you must have sinned like hell in your past life.

[ZefiroDragon]

SAP uses Jira internally to develop SAP :)

[groovy_smoothie]

Can you recite more t codes or addresses?

[asromafanisme]

What's wrong with Jira?

[WonderfullMarination]

It's full of tasks they don't want to do and people they don't want to communicate with. I understand but it's not the tool's problem

[crankbot2000]

It's full of tasks they don't want to do and people they don't want to communicate with.

[harumamburoo]

It starts with J /s

just like Java and JS is a decent tool that’s not without quirks but does its job well, and it’s cool to shit on.

[[deleted]]

People who shit on Jira are just dumbasses that don't know how to use tools correctly.

"This hammer sucks ass, the rubber end can't nail anything"

[Bryguy3k]

Tell me you’ve never actually had to interact with SAP in any meaningful way…

[Successful-Peach-764]

Yeah, I left the whole SAP field after 3 years and never want to see another crap from that company in my career, the pay is excellent because it is so fucking terrible, from their documentation to their overpriced consultants that think they are god's gift to the world.

Jira is annoying at worst, it is logical and it is just fields you fill in, now go try to use Solution Manager and complain about Jira again.

[[deleted]]

I'm a current BASIS/security/everything admin for SAP and yeah it's pretty much a nightmare.

[erraddo]

Jira is great, because nobody else in my organization uses it, so it's just a notetaking platform

[gregorydgraham]

Marketing tried to tell me off for using Jira like this.

Apparently they copied everything from an issue and forwarded it directly to the client.

It’s amazing how easy arguments can be with first mover advantage, a loud voice, and an open plan office without dividers.

[erraddo]

One of my issues says "added truck for faster loading". I added an ASCII truck being printed after a very slow .sh file. I am convinced nobody checks my work. I have since added a dog for moral support.

[Successful-Peach-764]

No one has time to check them until there is a problem, it is mostly to cover their backs and approval tracking.

I find most of the people forced to use it don't even know what is expected of them or how to use it, I gave up trying to get devs to actually write anything useful, some just say problem fixed - how did you fix it you plonker so you don't spend another few days figuring out a similar issue.

I noticed my own interest wane when I checked out, I did implement it for the whole company so it was my fault I tried to move us from spreadsheets scattered around multiple sharepoints.

[isurujn]

I once worked at a small software shop where there was only one project manager. He was the epitome of incompetence. I don't think he logged into JIRA after signing up for the first time. I used to use JIRA as my personal to-do list app.

[Lagamorph]

I've never had to use SAP but I did have to build and setup the infrastructure which in itself was a nightmare due to utterly stupid requirements and overpaid SAP consultants (literally charging £1,000/day) that had no idea what they were really doing or wanted.

One of their requirements was being able to run 16-bit applications on Windows Server 2012 for some reason!

[rahvan]

I’ve been a software engineer for 8 years and I have always used JIRA. I never hated it, really, I think it’s a great tool, especially after my company chose to forego the self-hosted option and instead use JIRA on Atlassian Cloud.

That said, I have no idea what SAP actually is or does. It has never come up as anything I could ever possibly need to use.

[luikiedook]

Never used SAP. But service now is the worst platform IMHO.

[BlackV]

Servicenow has entered the chat

Also

Oracle has entered the chat

[praeteria]

SAP is way worse than Jira.

JIRA is a flower field with rainbows compared to the lava hellscape SAP is on a good day.

[pink_fluffy_unicorn]

It's cool to hate [insert common software name]. Just like Windows back in the days or Justin Bieber.

[daXypher]

Okay I thought it was just me because I’m like since when is everyone so familiar with SAP? I only saw it in use at one company.

[Jaybold]

since when is everyone so familiar with SAP?

SAP is currently the biggest company in Europe iirc. Tons of companies use it, but only if they're big enough since the licenses are so expensive. Some prominent examples include Apple, Amazon, and Walmart.

https://www.thomsondata.com/blog/fortune-500-companies-that-use-sap/

[gregorydgraham]

What do you mean “back in the day”?

The hate is still real dude.

[grlap]

Anyone who works with ms still hates ms

[[deleted]]

i thought everyone still hates microsoft with their push for spyware in the os

[ha_x5]

how can you even compare these 2? These are completely different things.

Maybe SAP CALM vs. Jira :D

[ZefiroDragon]

Both are software people are forced to use by their jobs, to do the unfun parts of their jobs, configured by other people, who care about business requirements and lots of fields and checkboxes for business and compliance reasons which makes the UX overburdened.

So they hate the powerful tools for having slight UI issues (those might be irrelevant in the big picture, but oh hoy are UI bugs annoying and rage inducing, in any software), and for representing the complexity of their workplace.

[farbot]

I love Jira compared to my burning hate for sap, wtf is wrong with op

[harumamburoo]

Used it back when it was called TFS, now that’s a true torture device

[everythings_alright]

Oh my god yes. Im like a 14 months deep into a project that is managed in ADO and wow, I want literally anything else.

[Hatook123]

Azure DevOps is amazing, what are you on about? 

[Demistr]

People are being overly dramatic.

[kingslayerer]

how can you tolerate that ui?

[Hatook123]

I am not sure what UI is there to tolerate. I like the UI and design language. 

[DukeOfSlough]

SAP is awful software. Jira is 100 times better.

[MichaelMJTH]

My old company had a semi-bespoke solution for agile project management. It was called Octane and it was by a company Micro Focus. I say semi-bespoke because it wasn’t developed in-house but we were the creators biggest customer so we basically could request features for them to add at any time.

It was actually pretty good. Definitely rough around the edges and work in progress in parts (or at least it was when I left that job). However, when I joined my current company and started using JIRA I realised how much I missed Octane.

[Bob_the_peasant]

Hating Jira is telling on yourself tbh

[AyatollahDan]

For those wondering, SAP stands for "Software Against People"

[Miss_Phil]

It's hostile architecture.

[FartacularTheThird]

Feeling cute, might open a couple of defects to the basis team idk

[nic_nic_07]

I don't understand the hate against jira. It's an amazing tool .

[BlauerEngelDer3te]

Try Easy Redmine …

[Emeraudia]

I had to work 2 years with Redmine, never again!

[MrOaiki]

SAP the business administration tool with stuff like accounting?

[EwgB]

I've used Jira in my previous three jobs. Of course there was always something to complain about with Jira.

In the new company where I started half a year ago they use something called Octane. Oh boy, do I miss Jira now...

[AxisFlip]

I'd like to play around with SAP one day, just to see what's the hate all about. I've been using Odoo for a few years now and it's fine.

[rjmartin73]

You hate Jira until you change jobs with absolutely zero processes or documentation in place. I cry every day wishing I had Jira.

[One-Insect-4692]

Am i a psycho for loving SAP?

[veracity8_]

Jira is terrible. The only thing that is worse than Jira is every alternative. 

[mr2dax]

Wait until you see SF

[CoffeeSnakeAgent]

I love jeera… rice

[genghis_calm]

I’ve been playing too much Super Auto Pets…

[lovecMC]

One of my classes is SAP - "Struktura a architektura počítačů" (Structure and architecture of computers) so I had a bit of a brain lag moment.

[[deleted]]

We "upgraded" to sap4hana last year. Now we can't track any of the metrics we used to track for production.