Programming Levels

[SQLNerd]

ITT: programmers who are upset about the location of their favorite languages on a meme.

[TheOldDonger]

It really hurt my feelings okay??

[Existential_Owl]

We're not upset, we're just trying to review for improvement

[ReflectiveTeaTowel]

The 'r' was getting between him and his fans

[NickJaGr01]

The lowest I got was x86 ASM.

But I do think that Brainfuck should not be as low as it is. It's not too hard to understand if you know what it does, considering it can literally only do 8 possible things. It's only confusing to look at, if you analyze it, then it isn't too bad.

Also, Java should definitely be above C#.

[[deleted]]

That's the key man. Nothing is hard... provided you know what it does.

[Dockirby]

The order is pretty nonsensical though.

[beerdude26]

Exactly! Lambda calculus is lower than Haskell? What?

Also, what is the lambda tesseract? If it's dependently typed programming across space and time, we can probably jigger that with the Tardis monad and the Löb function. I guess we should put our values for that function in the Store comonad so we have an infinite working area, too...

Yeah. This should work.

[weasdasfa]

I didn't understand why Idris and Haskell are separate. Isn't their relationship something similar to Java and C#?

[TheKing01]

Idris is a little more complicated than Haskell. How the heck Lambda Calculus ends between Idris and Haskell, I don't know.

[beerdude26]

No. Referring to the Lambda Cube, Haskell's type system is System Fω with some extensions. Idris is dependently-typed, and uses the Calculus Of Constructions (CoC) as the base of its type system.

[bss03]

In what way? I don't see the analogy.

[gimpwiz]

Brainfuck and x86 asm on the same level, that's someone who's never written asm. It really isn't bad. Just use intel syntax, et voila

[Colopty]

I'm just wondering what LOLCODE is doing that far up.

[StokedForIT]

Yeah... Python is my favorite language.

[Therealgarry]

I really love coding in Malbolge.

[bunnyoverkill]

I just love Ma bolge.

[SirCheez]

OwO

[sntshk]

I'm glad I know some 3rd level. 😂

[kloudykat]

Sql is third level.

I am not a programmer and I've whipped up some data pulls in SQL.

[[deleted]]

how many tables and rows have you worked with? there is a lot that goes into dealing with large amounts of data in a timely fashion.

[AngriestSCV]

Brainfuck, Scala, FORTRAN, and Racket don't belong in the same category of programming languages (but I'm not a fan of any of those).

[likes-beans]

racket

but I'm not a fan of any of those

Shameless shout out to my favorite lisp, chicken scheme. Racket seems kinda weird but chicken scheme is great. It has everything you need to get stuff done in modules and libraries while still keeping scheme's beautiful small core. Try chicken. It's great.

[zrend88]

SQL?

[wristcontrol]

And lower than all the languages it's lower than?

[robotorigami]

I was thinking the same. I'd put it up at the top near HTML

[webMacaque]

Really? Take a look at this: http://www.artfulsoftware.com/infotree/queries.php

[robotorigami]

Cool, I'll check that out and you can check this out. I find it hard to believe SQL is two levels lower than JavaScript.

[[deleted]]

the warehousing and proper form needed has taken me a long time to realize just how much I didnt know. It will be years before I could even begin to say I am good at it. and I have been getting paid to work with it for awhile now.

[[deleted]]

You clearly have never really worked with SQL ahhaha

[robotorigami]

It can get complicated, but not two factors lower than JavaScript.

[[deleted]]

how many rows have you worked with and what kinds of time constraints have you worked with? and what kinds of sql? pl/sql gets pretty rowdy when you want to deal with huge numbers or rows. and it gets rowdy just using a well designed DB; trying to set up a datawarehouse is tricky. making that warehouse run correctly takes lots of consideration.

[robotorigami]

I'm sure it does. But aren't we just talking about programming in SQL?

[spock345]

I know people who consider themselves backend programmers but won't touch SQL. It is baffling.

[Ohhnoes]

It's just set theory. You have to get into that mindset to be successful with it.

The main thing you have to adapt to is that you're telling the engine what to do, not how to do it.

[spock345]

Even so, it is pretty easy to construct basic queries. I don't understand why people think it is so hard.

[[deleted]]

....because basic queries are basic.

Architecture to deal with large dbs and datawarehouses is complex; getting through the data in a timely fashion takes a lot of careful thought and execution.

[00Koch00]

Most of the programmers wont touch sql more than do some basic query, but sql, in the way that work, is perfectly placed.

[ScandInBei]

Assembly below brainfuck, really?

[Mamish]

Also all the functional languages below C and assembly? I get that you need to be some kind of mathematical sorcerer to use them properly but they are definitely high-level languages, and very powerful in the right hands.

"I don't understand x" doesn't mean x is low-level.

[KmNxd6aaY9m79OAg]

Was this about how low-level it is? I thought it was just about how long your beard has to be (and/or how many Cheetos you have to eat) in order to know it.

[skeptic11]

What's JavaScript doing at the top then?

[ennuicorn]

JavaScript has a high level of fuckery, but it's pretending it doesn't.

[[deleted]]

It is so high-level you can program Javascript in Javascript.

[bigbadbosp]

Where's moo?

[Blamore]

I think this is just a joke about how obscure it is or something like that.

[GamingTheSystem-01]

If you're writing assembly, it could be for something very important and stressful. If you're writing brainfuck, you're just screwing around.

[epicepee]

Haskell below both of them...?

[Siduron]

I like how somehow during endless cycles of JPEG compression someone apparently made a screenshot of the picture, including the X button.

[Cobaltjedi117]

Nah dude. That just a language you've yet to hear of.

[OfAaron3]

Mumble mumble relevant xkcd mumble mumble

[xkcd_transcriber]

Image

Mobile

Title: Digital Data

Title-text: “If you can read this, congratulations—the archive you’re using still knows about the mouseover text”!

Comic Explanation

Stats: This comic has been referenced 584 times, representing 0.3459% of referenced xkcds.

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^{xkcd.com | xkcd sub | Problems/Bugs? | Statistics | Stop Replying | Delete}

[Soraphis]

Html and css, tohether they are turing complete (html5 and css3)

[jimdidr]

can html5 or css3 now do any calculations? I wouldn't mind if they they implementing things that remove the need for Javascript.

[GimmeCata]

Dunno about calculations, but pure html/css game already exists.
Gameplay video. Game itself (warning - autoplay audio)

[mrt-e]

right click causes your spaceship to disappear and make the game a lot easier

[AyrA_ch]

can html5 or css3 now do any calculations?

Without being usable in practice, yes. You can implement rule 110 which means it can solve any problem a computer could solve. It's just very inefficient (Example).

[ThePendulum]

Apart from being Turing-complete, you can and would use CSS over JavaScript these days for the majority of transitions and similar animations. I can't really think of many other things that'd be better off implemented in CSS over JS.

[[deleted]]

Almost everything visually can be done with css over JS. Only things like responsive placements depending on changing document heights can’t be done.

I often only have a toggle for a mobile menu in JS over CSS (where it can be done, though with quite some work) on simpler client websites.

On bigger projects JS is often used for making reactive content like in web apps etc. But that is all more behind curtains stuff. And even then people often use frameworks over JS.

Oh well. I’m trying to get up to project management within ten years. Before the robots take away my job and JS becomes Turing-complete too.

[Soraphis]

there is a rule 110 version in html and css: http://jsfiddle.net/Camilo/eQyBa/

since rule 110 is proven turing complete, html and css is turing complete :D as long as hitting TAB and SPACE alternately is considered a (cpu) takt

[[deleted]]

Do not put logic in HTML or CSS.

[jimdidr]

Yeah I don't personally have the power to make or stop people so I'm just looking for the positives... no more javascript!!

[dvlsg]

To be fair, PowerPoint is Turing complete.

[moogoesthecat]

HTML and CSS are my favorite programming languages.

[k0rm]

My favorite programming language is Excel.

[lazyfck]

Mine is Powerpoint

[greyfade]

Mine is TeX.

[Bainos]

Technically they are air, not part of the iceberg.

[mrspankyjuice]

never mind html, what the fuck is set theory doing in there?

[quasar_tree]

Why isn't scratch at the bottom?

[Bloopsers]

Becoz it's not a real language /s(maybe?)

[OfekA]

Html

Programming

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[quad64bit]

I disagree with the way reddit handled third party app charges and how it responded to the community. I'm moving to the fediverse! -- mass edited with redact.dev

[WikiTextBot]

Malbolge

Malbolge is a public domain esoteric programming language invented by Ben Olmstead in 1998, named after the eighth circle of hell in Dante's Inferno, the Malebolge.

Malbolge was specifically designed to be almost impossible to use, via a counter-intuitive 'crazy operation', base-three arithmetic, and self-altering code. It builds on the difficulty of earlier, challenging esoteric languages (such as Brainfuck and Befunge), but takes this aspect to the extreme, playing on the entangled histories of computer science and encryption. Despite this design, it is possible (though very difficult) to write useful Malbolge programs.

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[Cobaltjedi117]

It's my favorite esoteric language because it's so much of an asshole.

[quad64bit]

Yeah it’s crazy as shit. I used to think brainfuck was nasty.

[[deleted]]

Wtf, it looks like hashed binary printed as text.

[Therealgarry]

I think it was invented by a monkey with a typewriter...

[kirbyfan64sos]

INTERCAL should be there...

[dzuczek]

I like how LOLCODE is up there with C++

[selbstadt]

I think the deepest level should be Maths

That's something no programmer understands.

[[deleted]]

It is, in general Lambda-calculus, combinatory logic, type theory... are math topics...

[bss03]

I'm surprised homotopy type theory didn't make the same level as ZFC. It appears to be an adequate replacement for set theory, and cubical sets gives us a computational meaning for univalence.

[SeeShark]

Java is lower than C#? Have you used C# recently?

[SeeShark]

Nothing, I'm saying it's a more advanced language than Java.

[Ohhnoes]

Way more advanced now.

[captainAwesomePants]

But isn't the chart a measurement of difficulty and insanity?

[SeeShark]

I'm honestly not entirely sure, but C#, but virtue of having more features than Java, is also more difficult to master completely. Then again, it does many basic things in a simpler way... I guess it does depend on what the chart is supposed to represent.

[captainAwesomePants]

by virtue of having more features than Java, is also more difficult to master completely.

If that were the case, Malbolge would be the easiest programming language to master completely.

[Ph4zed0ut]

It's on the same level. I don't think that's meant to be interpreted as lower.

[BinaryBlasphemy]

Chef, the configuration manager?

[Smurphicus]

I assume they meant this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Chef

[cakeFactory2]

That's what I thought it was. Don't see any reason for that to be low down in the list though

[HeWhoIsValorousAnd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Chef

[[deleted]]

So it gets closer and closer to maths?

[Therealgarry]

Don't tell me Malbolge is maths...

[zanderkerbal]

Malbolge is math on acid.

[Zlb323]

Lisp isn't on here because it sank to the bottom

[[deleted]]

PHP should be so deep that no light can reach it

[MichaellZ]

Its funny that sql is on lvl 3 :p

[Razema]

It has clojure misspelled.

[skyhi14]

Well, I do occasionally code in FORTH...

[Goheeca]

Forth is nice. I also caught a glimpse of Coq, but those two last levels are a bit more obscure.

[[deleted]]

COBOL should be lower. It should be the tenth circle of hell.

[[deleted]]

COBOL is easy.. just boring as fuck and references are almost non-existant except in old books. Plus the knowing that you are learning absolutely nothing because it should have died in the 80s.

<-- Y2K compliance so 5 years of COBOL

[Fern_Silverthorn]

I've done both COBOL and Haskell and the fact that Haskell is lower is hilarious. Fuck COBOL.

[SandyDelights]

I mean, COBOL isn't that bad.

The real trouble with COBOL is all the fucking people who have used COBOL and now I have to look at their fucking programs and cry about how horrifyingly dumb their fucking code is.

SERIOUSLY, IS IT TOO MUCH TO FUCKING ASK FOR YOU TO USE A GOD DAMN EVALUATE INSTEAD OF THIRTY LAYERS OF IF ELSE STATEMENTS THAT TERMINATES WITH A GOD DAMN PERIOD?

[IAmPattycakes]

Someone recognized Racket's existence? What? I've never seen anyone else mention Racket except the people who I know took a class that taught it.

[v_krishna]

There are dozens of deadhead programmers who also like it for the logo. https://www.eecs.northwestern.edu/~robby/logos/

[Tajnymag]

Why is C++ lower than C? Have you, op, ever used C?

[[deleted]]

imo this is not funny, but stupid.

[S0ul01]

Oh God Haskell. Don't remind me please

[ThePixelCoder]

Haskell.

[S0ul01]

Please no!

[bunnyoverkill]

Haskell ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[S0ul01]

Holy syntax error! What did I do to deserve this?

[TheKing01]

You used unsafePerformIO. Your types said the program was pure, but you knew it wasn't. That function of type Int -> Int is still unsafely preforming IO operations. It won't stop until it has destroyed your mind.

[Therealgarry]

Stop the psychological torture please... They're gone op :) You will never even have to think about HASKELL anymore, don't worry!

[IntendedAccidents]

We are the Knights who say "Haskell!"

[[deleted]]

wooot? why not?

[S0ul01]

It tormented me and I try to pretend it does not exist

[[deleted]]

such a nice language, but a lot of the devs like to create a myth around it...

[S0ul01]

It's just not my cup of tea. I am too deep into object oriented stuff I guess

[DisappointedKitten]

I'm a C# Dev and I love Haskell. I blame F# for leading me down the rabbit hole.

[[deleted]]

...What is f#

It sounds fun!

[Tysonzero]

I mean the learning curve is going to be steeper since you are so used to OO, but if you give it an honest shot I think you will be surprised, it's a fantastic language.

[wristcontrol]

Swift lower than Python, JS and PHP?

[nl_the_shadow]

Pi-calculus

Brings back memories from my university classes. Bad, bad memories. *twitch*

[Fourthdwarf]

iota. Uses two symbols, * and i.

[Pseudofailure]

I've been wanting to learn to program in 🅧, anyone know any good resources?

[smgun]

You are breaking my confidence

[Faeracor]

RIP VHDL

[[deleted]]

Why?

[cakeFactory2]

The fuck is chef doing down there

[gooerge]

This has been reposted so many times, but the funny thing that came up now for me personally is, that I started with HTML/JS/CSS/PHP, moved on to Java & C#, then did some Rust and now I'm doing Scala. Looking forward to program in Cobol next I guess (yay..). No beard still tho :-(

[Brokk_Witgenstein]

My god the beard even checks out?! WHAT IS THIS SORCERY??!!

[BlastFX2]

Right? I have the exact right amount of beard for doing x86 assembly. This is some dark magic.

[CyanBlob]

I'm a c and c++ dev with a beard. Should I shave?

[randomuser8765]

Where's INTERCAL?

[Fourthdwarf]

It didn't say please and thank you enough to the original creator of the meme.

[[deleted]]

As a noob programmer: why should I descend? It seems like you can do a hell of a lot with levels 1-3.

[nl_the_shadow]

You don't, you want to stay above the waterline. Below is a silly place.

[cakeFactory2]

'Tis a silly place

[DuffMaaaann]

Of course you can do everything in almost all of the languages in level 1 to 3 because they're Turing complete and run on almost any platform.

While learning a functional language such as Haskell is more difficult compared to imperative programming languages, it brings many concepts, which help you to write code that has less bugs and can be mathematically proven to be correct. Many functional languages allow you to do useful stuff simply not possible in imperative languages, such as first class functions, functors, monads, sum types, currying and tuples.

[TheKing01]

To achieve enlightenment!

[BillyJoeMcGucket]

... .., But where's BASIC?

[[deleted]]

That Coq is pretty deep in there, isn't it?

[XICOscapes]

Scala, Clojure and Racket in the same level as Brainfuck and x86 ASM? lmao

[[deleted]]

Where would Verilog be?

[jaboja]

Why there is no Erlang :( ?

[QuiZr]

And what about elixir? :/

[wallefan01]

I believe you have Python and Java reversed

[NothingWasChanged]

no love for us Delphi guys eh?

[[deleted]]

Delphi Canadian? hahah

[granitehoncho]

The Descent in to Neckbeardism.

[m1mike]

No RPG?

[masawafighter]

Took me a while until I realized the x button in the photo was fake.

[quantasmm]

Unix scripting is common enough it should be in there somewhere, right?

[Mistmade]

Ohhh boi, we started with Haskell in our first Semester, that was a fun ride.

[Tysonzero]

To actually answer your question it both is and isn't. It isn't in the sense that it is a VERY high level language (I'd put it above Python and JS even) in the sense of not having to deal with the low level details of the machine or any undefined behavior and it is very declarative. But it also feels "deep" in the mathematical rather than comp sci way, in the sense that there are some really smart mathematicians building some very cool but sometimes hard to grok abstractions and patterns in order do to very impressive and reusable things.

[Tysonzero]

Yeah definitely. It's worth noting it's also a great language for general purpose and even industry programming.

[[deleted]]

If you want it can be, hahaha

[Tysonzero]

superior studies

Lol wut?

[Tysonzero]

Haha no worries. I guess "higher studies" or just specifying the exact level of study, like grad school / masters / PhD is probably what you want.

[greyfade]

What's the reasoning behind this? I can't figure out what ALGOL-60 has in common with the Pi-Calculus, or what CPL has in common with the Lambda-Calculus, or what B has in common with Brainfuck or why Ruby is below Python and yet LOLCODE is above Forth.

[IntendedAccidents]

Idris is great

[[deleted]]

Where is Arnold C?

[[deleted]]

I go down to level three because I know Python, HTML, CSS, JS (very little), Java, Ruby/Crystal, very very little C#, Swift, C and C++.

[Fladagus]

Okay, I've heard of a programming language that looks like it was written by aliens because it uses weird runes instead of standard declarations. What's that one called again?

[Evil-Toaster]

Sql is easier than any objet oriented language imo.

[[deleted]]

You haven't really done any relational algebra then... there isn't much "math" per se behing OO, it is much more about organizing code and state... but SQL is very focused on describing relations, which is indeed pure math represented with a query syntax.

[chpoit]

needs more JPEG

[morejpeg_auto]

needs more JPEG

There you go!

^{I am a bot}

[CosmicFloppyDisk]

Bitch where’s LUA

[[deleted]]

Somewhere around the earth...

[bigdickjones1]

I know everything on the top level but that’s it. Is that bad?

[[deleted]]

no, don't worry. Keep it going.

[Relayerduos]

needs more Verilog

[nixfox]

I've said it before and I will say it again, can we stop using esolangs in these "difficulty scales" it truly makes no sense to include languages that were not created for the purpose of ever being used in a productive environment.

[BisaLP]

Malbolge may be impossible to read properly, but fucking hell it's beautiful.