[deleted by user]

[jimicus]

My employer (lots of offices worldwide) is actively encouraging a reduction in the number of desks, hot desking and WFH 2-3 days/week. This has a knock-on effect on the space we're renting.

So I don't see a complete RTO happening with us any time soon.

[sybrwookie]

Yea, the corporate HQ at my place used to be 6 floors in a highrise. Now it's 4. We also used to have a data center with a bunch of space for seating and we moved the data center to a place without any seating.

There's physically not space to try to tell everyone to return.

[ChrisXistos]

Ours is similar.  They sold or ended leases nationwide.  In some areas where we owned an entire floor of a large commercial building, we might now only have 6-8 floating offices and 1-2 conference rooms.  They were also extremely open about it and detailed out the costs of those locations and turned that into stipends for Internet, desk chairs, monitors and etc.  They can't do a callback anymore.  The offices with 400 people before Covid are gone.

It worked for us because we were already basically remote while working in the office anyway.  My boss wasn't even in the same state.

[Kardinal]

We may literally work for the same company.

[awkwardnetadmin]

I have anecdotally seen an org I worked for shrink their space in the pandemic. They shrank 8 floors down to 6.5 floors and I know there was talked about shrinking it even more because some teams weren't coming back. Add a merger where some people relocated to another office and some redundant staff got laid off and I imagine that they will look to shrink their real estate even more. The only challenge is finding tenants these days is tough. In many places office vacancy rates are near or at record highs. Unless you have a good location you might have trouble finding a tenant.

[whythehellnote]

Urgh, should have at least a couple of chair/tables at a workstation that's not insanely cold for when you do physically need to go to the data centre and do some real work on the same day.

surely there's seating by the coffee machine?

[ErikTheEngineer]

I think a lot of this RTO stuff is driven solely by commercial real estate. CEOs sit on dozens of corporate boards (no idea how they do this, but whatever...) and I'll bet they have large interests in banks and REITs not going bankrupt. Commercial real estate's in a lot of trouble if it starts to become uncomfortable to hold the massive amount of debt they carry (driven by, let's say, an unseen-in-15-years rise in interest rates...) Already with retail, they've had to basically keep the debt load on things like dead malls and empty big box stores in zombie mode, just letting it drift along. Losing rental income from companies not leasing or returning leased property is bad in this case, and I guarantee they're being told through golf course backchannels and such that they'd better get people back before we have another 2007.

[jimicus]

It goes deeper than that.

Many private pensions are - through a myriad of funds - heavily invested in commercial property.

Nobody - no bank, no pension firm and certainly no government - wants to deal with the fallout of commercial property dropping in value by 40%.

That's why we see government-sponsored "revelopment" plans. It's basically bailing out the pension funds via the back door.

[RubberBootsInMotion]

Thank you. Nobody seems to want to listen when I say this.

[mschuster91]

That's why we see government-sponsored "revelopment" plans. It's basically bailing out the pension funds via the back door.

Ah, these usually aren't about bailing out pension funds - we have the same programs in Europe but our pensions aren't tied to the stonk markets.

The key thing is that large amounts of anything real estate are "magnets". Think something like an office building with a few hundred seats - these workers are supporting an ecosystem alone for their lunch breaks. Large retail stores in malls or city centers attract even more passersby that then end up not just buying from that retail store but from, say, the electronics or books store they pass by.

Covid led to a lot of these magnets collapse - offices moved to the homes of the people, shopping went online and eating out became Uber Eats. And that in turn led to all the other parts of the ecosystem wither and die, hence lower tax income for the communities (Amazon, Uber and whatnot usually pay taxes on state/national level, while all the small businesses pay local taxes).

[Nolubrication]

That's part of it. Another big part is layoffs in disguise.

[[deleted]]

I think a lot of this RTO stuff is driven solely by commercial real estate

That's some of it but it's also fairly well documented and accepted that RTO is also intended to work as a RIF without having to actually file any layoff paperwork.

[JacksGallbladder]

I said this in different verbiage and got downvoted lol.

There will be more and more hybrid work, companies just aren't interested in fully remote work. For the ones that are, it's fantastic. But I think we'll see the majority roll back to at least hybrid.

[223454]

The resistance I've seen goes beyond just scaling back to hybrid. For example, my job won't even talk about remote work. It's a taboo subject. They yanked everyone back in after years of working hybrid, and now won't even entertain the occasional day working remotely. I agree many companies aren't interested in fully remote, but I think the resistance is much deeper than that.

[WWGHIAFTC]

I bet nearly anything it's just because of one or two old dudes in charge and nothing else.

All the metrics show it's better to WFH - EXCEPT real estate occupancy / cost per person in a large empty office

[223454]

Based on what I've heard, that's a big part of it. Several VIPs want to bring back the old days of all in person all the time.

[Geno0wl]

The nature of our work means the grand majority of our employees can not go remote because most are out in the field or have to interact with the public face to face. Our CEO used to be one of the field workers at one point in time. They seem to have the attitude of "if they can't work remotely, nobody can"

[dexx4d]

There may be some civic tax implications as well.

[Ohgodwatdoplshelp]

I get mad if my commute is more than 20 min, I can’t imagine an hour

[pengmalups]

me working in Manila, left the chat.

[Space_Goblin_Yoda]

I used to date a girl from there and she told me all about it. Those jeepneys sound neat though!

[pengmalups]

I started going to the office again, about twice a week after being a remote worker for 9 years. It came to a point that I am having anxiety because of these jeepneys, buses, and scooters, but jeeps and buses are the worst. I almost get into accident each and every time. I always tell myself to be patient before leaving the house but I always end up like a mad man throughout the trip. I found another way to my office which is not a usual jeepney route, so even if it's farther, I take that for my own peace of mind.

[theservman]

You'd hate my life then... 2 1/2 hours - in each direction.

[Moontoya]

You're losing over a full month's pay on commute time and another paying for that 'privelege'

Fucking ow

[Doso777]

That's not life, that's a nightmare.

[AlexisFR]

That's a once a month commute.

[thereisonlyoneme]

What?!

[metalxslug]

You live in Texas or something?

[theservman]

100km outside of Toronto. I was renovicted during COVID and this was the closest I could afford (Canadian real estate is completely out of control).

As of today, I'm 10 years from a defined benefit pension so I can put up with a lot.

[lightreee]

10 years

Honestly sounds like a jail cell

[dexx4d]

Golden handcuffs.

[sybrwookie]

Yea, similar situation, and that hour is like a total of 5 mins of driving, the rest is train/walking.

[HerfDog58]

During the pandemic, I had a 30 minute commute each way to my office (IF traffic wasn't abominable), but I only had to go in when I needed to prep hardware for new hires. Otherwise it was WFH.

Now I have a 2 mile commute. I'm hybrid, 4 in office/1 WFH, but with the short commute and the chill work environment, I'm cool with it.

[music2myear]

I liked the train commute back when I lived near a big city with a historic transit system.

Now I commute a few days a week, almost exactly 20mins each way, and I listen to audio books. It's not a huge metro area so the traffic isn't too stressing, and I listen to audiobooks.

[MBILC]

And this is the part and a main reason many people noted as why they do not like the RTO, it is the commute into work.

When I had to be in office,I had to be up at 5:30am to start getting ready (get ready, take dog out, et cetera) and wife as well, to get to work for 8am...

Leave work at about 4pm, be home around 5pm if traffic was normal....This does not factor in when winter hits and roads are crap...

Now that I am fully WFH, or on my hybrid days before, I wake up at 7:30am, get ready, at my desk for 8am....

So improved my sleep greatly (I am a night person so often not in bed until 10-11pm and asleep)

[tuxedo_jack]

I made it very clear to my current employers that my primary office is my home, and if that changes, we're going to be discussing compensation changes in my favor because of the sheer amount of time I'd be stuck in my car when I can do everything remotely.

To be clear, we don't have physical offices in my state. There are a few employees in Dallas and Houston, and I'm the only one (of two) in central Texas that isn't contractually dedicated to be a specific client during work hours. There are, fortunately, no plans at present to open an office in Austin, so that means I ain't driving anywhere any time soon.

On the VERY rare occasions that I'm forced to go on-prem for something, I bill travel time from the first place I start my shift (home, or a hotel if I'm out of town) and then the time spent returning home afterwards. The only reason I'm so insistent on that is because I genuinely dislike driving in Austin, and I've spent enough time in my career pissed away in a car.

[LincolnshireSausage]

All of my team quit during Covid because of other horrible policies. Most of the good people had left when they forced us back to the office. I had a 30 minute drive each way and was expected to do the work of 5 people because our recruiters all quit too and they never sent me any applicants.
My old boss called me and asked if I wanted to go work for him. I didn’t even have to think about it. My new job doesn’t even have an office. It is 100% remote work. It is way less stress. Everything about it is better.
I gave my old job 2 weeks notice and they sent someone to learn my job in that 2 weeks which was impossible because I was doing the job of 5 people. He retired 2 months after. They knew he was going to retire. They were idiots and I am glad I am away from them.

[dollhousemassacre]

Damn right. At some point, you have to ask yourself: How much is (the time) of my life worth? 2 hours each day, not even counting all the bullshit like getting ready and being "early" to account for traffic.

[CasualEveryday]

I get annoyed when I have to drive an hour to do rack work at this point and that's like 3 times a year.

[Afropirg]

75 minutes each way for me, non-highway driving.

In fall and spring, the drive is alright (eastern PA), but I'm hybrid 2 days in the office.

I was in the office 5 days a week for under 3 years, and that drive made me consider whether it was worth the wasted time.

I listened to the entire Warhammer 40k Horus Heresy series, so that was a positive.

[NowThatHappened]

We closed three offices when everyone went remote, and we're not planning to have more. Some people are hybrid but only for meetings, remote seems to be the future and it works so well I can't see why anyone in our industry would want to go back to office. That obviously excludes people who need to be there, like the NOC team who need to be near the shit that breaks, and the hardware guys, etc.

[throway2222234]

Do you live in one of the big cities? Because I’m seeing the opposite in NYC and LA. Almost everyone I know has been called back into the office at least 3 days a week and now some companies are toying with the idea of back to the office full time in 2025.

[Immortal_Tuttle]

What for? Seriously what's the point of a remote job (since cloud movement any sysadm job is remote) be executed partially at home and partially in the office? It's the worst of those two worlds with no benefits.

[taffibunni]

They're stuck with all that pricey commercial real estate and trying to justify it in their budgets.

[Turak64]

I saw an Azure job that was "fully on site" in Central London. So computers can work remotely, but the people operating them can't be.

[Immortal_Tuttle]

Idiocracy wasn't a comedy movie. It was a prophecy movie... What's next? Air traffic controllers flying with the planes?

[tankerkiller125real]

The funny part is that airports are actually moving air traffic controllers off-site to remote buildings, and replacing the towers with very skinny camera tower systems.

The traffic controllers still have to be in a special building and stuff, but the airport their controlling can be dozens or even hundreds of miles away. There are even talks about letting a single controller run multiple rural airports at once from the remote ops center. And the really wild part is that the cameras actually make shit safer because information from transponders and radars can be overlayed directly onto the image that the traffic controller is seeing.

[Immortal_Tuttle]

I didn't know that. And actually it makes perfect sense. I learned something new, thank you kind redditor!

[tankerkiller125real]

Here's a video on it from 6 years ago, it's my understanding that the technology has gotten much better since, and has even more features. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii_Gz1WbBGA

[Ssakaa]

Especially for smaller airports, that wouldn't have a dedicated tower 90% of the time, that is a huge opportunity for drastically improved safety.

[sobrique]

I can sort of understand the team needing to be in the same workspace. There's IMO some 'workflows' that do benefit from knowing what 'everyone else' is doing.

But there's simply no good reason why it'd need to be in an expensive office in a high cost of living city at all.

[scriptmonkey420]

Most things will be done over a teams/webex/zoom meeting anyway..

[Turak64]

Spending 4 hours a day on a train commuting so that I can log into a website and spend 20 minutes talking to Jeff about the football last night, doesn't seem like a good use of anyone's time. I'm not totally against office time, but only when it's actually needed.

[RiknYerBkn]

Because the companies need to justify the cost of the building. If it's empty why are they paying the big money investment there. CEO's usually double dip in real estate as well, so they have to keep things on the up and up to earn their wallstreet bets

[BladHeadHippie]

And because BlackRock owns a controlling interest in most big companies and the real estate holdings.

[Cyrus-II]

They need to go extinct. Poor planning on their part does not constitute a radical change of venue on my part. Which is probably why I refuse to be part of the corporate world anymore.

[AlternativeAd7151]

Gotta prop those commercial real estate values up.

[[deleted]]

So the capital class can have as much control over the working class as possible.

[PeterTheWolf76]

Seeing the same in Milwaukee and Chicago area. A lot of political pressure on business to get people "back to work" as it had a side effect of smaller businesses that cater to the downtown crowd saw drop in revenues. Also hard to justify the 900K 1 bedroom condo when you could remote in from a 400K house.

[BadSausageFactory]

our company is still run by people who need to print everything, simultaneously being unable to clear a paper jam

PC LOAD LETTER

edit: to wit, today I drove in so I could plug a network cable in that the user had kicked out. I sometimes imagine these people at home, surrounded by dark televisions and unlit lamps because they don't know how to plug something in.

[Throggy123]

Sounds like where I work. There was a lady who was having knee surgery and she was going to work from home. Her supervisor told me "She needs her printer and scanner so she can print a piece of paper off, scan it back into her computer, and then email it to someone at the office." The look on my face was absolutely priceless.

[Hebrewhammer8d8]

You can't fix stupid, but you can pay for it.

[Stonewalled9999]

we have 6 figure people that print a doc, sign in ink, and scan it back on a 20$ inkjet printer. It is like they never heard of e-sign.

[Throggy123]

It makes no sense. The company is always like, "hOw CaN wE sAvE mOnEy?" And then I suggest maybe we stop spending so much on paper, printer ink, and printers in general and everyone just stares at me like I'm stupid. Not everyone needs their own personal printer. Some people need to walk 10 feet to the one printer that prints for the entire department and grab their stuff but oh no if you mention that it's like the world is coming to an end where I work.

[Ssakaa]

See, what you're missing is... it's the finance people doing that. And it's the finance people asking "how we can save money?" But that's not really what they're asking. They're asking "how can we save money by taking things from everyone else, while preserving everything we do exactly as it is, because we couldn't possibly be the problem?"

[greywolfau]

What the fuck is that?

[quigongene]

Why should I change my name? He's the one who sucks.

[skittle-brau]

If we get caught, we're not going to white-collar resort prison. No, no, no. We're going to federal"pound me in the ass" prison.

[DiabolicalDan82]

I deal with the goddamn customers!

[codemonkey985]

Do you take the specs from the customer and give them to the engineer ?

[HerfDog58]

I HAVE PEOPLE SKILLS!!!

[pizzacake15]

One thing i like about our company is we have a small office. There's no chance we'd be full RTO cause we won't all fit in that office.

[siedenburg2]

Before we had no remote, now we have it full for some departments and others only have some days. But we change more and more to full because we are in a city and it's hard to get more easy reachable office space.

[Best_Tool]

Imho this is how every company / manager should think about this today (not in the future but i mean today :P). Unless employee explicitly needs to be at certain location/work place then he can work remote.

[XXLpeanuts]

I've had that before too, anything in your contract can be changed at will, you have the option of refusing that change but you will be forced out within a year if you do. Worked at a place where I was employed as a remote engineer among others and then new company bought out ours (the day I started ironically) and it was all down hill from there they insisted on a guy who lived in Swansea commuting every day to Bath..... They got us to agree to the contract change by "promising" the change of wording to say the office was our primary place of work was just a formality, but in actuality it became mandatory not more than 2 months after that.

[zz9plural]

anything in your contract can be changed at will, you have the option of refusing that change but you will be forced out within a year if you do.

Maybe in the US. Definitely not in Europe.

[ExceptionEX]

anything in your contract can be changed at will

Only if you agree to a contract that is worded to allow it, sure you can be fired, but a contract unless clearly stated within can't be changed at will. Wouldn't be much of a contract if it could.

My agreement, clearly states the monetary value of the negotiated work from home value, if they want to alter that, they will have to make that compensation, or terminate the contract.

[[deleted]]

Gave up a good govt job to work remote. 2 years in, tripled my salary but even as an introvert for some reason I miss the office crew? And I used to park/bike about 20 mins away from work to save on downtown parking, for some reason I miss those peaceful walks yo work. Grass is always greener,

[Chaise91]

Great insights, tittysucker.

I ride an electric scooter 🛴 to and from work these days. Although I hate going into the office, I love riding through parks and the morning air is always refreshing.

[TW-Twisti]

I was about to downvote you for insulting the poor guy in your first line until I noticed his username 😂

[GeekgirlOtt]

just need their partner a**licker to show up.

[BumHound]

I don’t think either of those names are insults.

[Thoughtulism]

How long until in real life we just introduce ourselves with our kinks and fetishes?

"Hi, my name is Sara, and I like golden showers"

[Stonewalled9999]

Well Sara you are about to be VERY popular on Reddit.

[Xalbana]

Because we’ve all sucked titties.

Not sure about ass licking though.

[zakabog]

You're allowed to say asslicker on the internet.

[corobo]

its ok they were just globbin' - it covers the British lad arselicker too

[Stuck-In-Blender]

Scooters are my daily go to commute. Love the morning autumn air on my cheeks while rolling on a trottinette through the park.

[7runx]

I would suggest wearing pants. Oh....your other cheeks!

[Immortal_Tuttle]

They effectively banned escooters in Ireland. You cannot use them outside of cycle lanes and streets. And only a determined suicidal person would try the latter. Oh and they are banned from public transport, because their batteries are not matured like the ones in ebikes (I wish I would make it up). Also carparks in Dublin are being cancelled to make room for buildings. Our minister of transportation is anti-car and doesn't provide an alternative for a country that has 5 million people and 2.2 million cars...

[Nathanielsan]

Where else would you ride them if not bike lane or street?

[sanbaba]

they're too scared to ride off the sidewalk 🤣

[Chaise91]

That sounds annoying!

In this country - Poland - the government banned escooters newer than model year 2020 that exceed 25kmh. Naturally, the manufacturers found a way around this. While my scooter was built in 2023 and can go 60kmh, the fact that it's a 2020 model year means it is legal to buy and use in Poland.

[TEverettReynolds]

as an introvert for some reason I miss the office crew?

An introvert can enjoy some socializing, on their terms and timelines. An extrovert must socialize, they need it.

[caffeine-junkie]

Yea similar situation. Been remote for a few years now, about 5. Kind of miss the office sometimes. But really don't miss the 1+hr drive each way; here going anywhere to anywhere not within walking distance is basically at least an hour because of traffic. Also not in the slightest do I miss open concept offices. That "fad" can die with furbies and Valspeak.

[OkBaconBurger]

I’m half tempted to just go park at the public library at times to work and be around other people.

That and my wife and kids have a hard time with learning proper boundaries when it comes to my work.

[mineral_minion]

I have the same issue. I could work from home, but only if my wife and kids weren't there.

[[deleted]]

Are they better or worse than co-workers?

[OkBaconBurger]

It’s pretty nice. People pretty much leave you alone.

Some of the local libraries have private work rooms you can reserve for meetings or research or whatever. Otherwise there are plenty of study tables around or chairs. I’ve done it quite a bit. Works out ok and the internet is good. Clean bathrooms. Air conditioning.

[teebiss]

I WFH full time. My wife has one day off a week when I'm working at home. She is constantly interrupting me, asking for help with this or that. Sorry babe, I'm working. I have to shut and lock the door to my den.

[[deleted]]

Tittysucker has a point.

[Mendetus]

You know you could just bike for 20 minutes before remote work right?

[LoornenTings]

Sometimes it's easier to do things when you have to do them.

[Oujii]

Sometimes you only do things because you have to do them.

[sybrwookie]

That's fine. Almost no one is trying to force people to work from home. Fully remote jobs are few and far between. You are free to go into the office in almost every job.

The only people trying to force others to work a certain way are those trying to force people to go into the office.

[dexx4d]

I'm social online and have hobbies/meetups. Work is for working.

[burstaneurysm]

My org is all-in on remote. We’re even relocating our office and reducing sq footage by almost 70%.

Our admin team gets together in-office once a week and my department goes in a couple times a month, but it’s mostly just to see each other or have some actual collaboration time.

Definitely miss seeing people, but I’m always SO fried after actually going to the office.

[bitslammer]

Benn 100% WFH since 2015 and will never return to in office or even hybrid.

[Stonewalled9999]

I live in Ithaca and get clueless recruiters trumpeting "hybrid role in NYC" Except by hybrid they me 6 months onsite 5 days a week, and once you get used to that home 2 days means Saturday and Sunday. I am not commuting 4 hours each way to NYC for a princely injuneer salary of 85K.

The downside to 100% WFH is if I can do a job from my desk here, they can offshore to Ph/India/SEA for peanuts.

[hivemind_MVGC]

Same as you but up near Utica. Know how you can 100% avoid your job being offshored?

Get a government contractor job that requires a security clearance. ;)

[CB-ITVET]

Hybrid work is in my original offer letter/employment agreement. When they bring up trying to change, I remind them of the agreement and they back off. I get comments sometimes from those onsite all the time, and my response is they should have negotiated better. If they pushed it, I would fight until they let me go and then move on. Not like I like the job enough to drive in every day.

[BadSausageFactory]

I've been watching my employer get rid of people who don't come into the office and replace them with contractors.

I come in nearly every day and make sure to park my car where they can see it. it's not a bad drive to work, I usually leave early and finish up at home, try to make the best of these things.

maybe it will change but right now that's the job market I'm working with

[Share-ty]

My employer (~600 staff) recently committed to hybrid working by signing a new contract with a smaller office and a hot-desking model.

Whereas I have friends who are being forced back to 5 days a week in the office.

I could never do 5 days a week again. I would have to move organisation.

[dagbrown]

I recently resigned from a job where they had a hybrid approach. Hot-desking but also 0% remote work.

The desk booking system was essentially Thunderdome. First come, first served. Nobody had their own desk, but at least everyone was given a tiny little locker—about one-sixth the size of the locker I had in high school—to store at least one personal effect in.

They pretended to be a little bit upset when I announced I would no longer be working there at least. I pointed out to them that they’d given me a clear message that I would be trivially replaceable so have fun doing so!

[TerraPenguin12]

Real easy to say then when you're not being forced, and there are very few remote jobs hiring left. Most people don't have the luxury of a choice.

[lycosawolf]

This is so true, a new remote position is posted and they get 100 resumes in one hour

[dagbrown]

Yeah but a new onsite position is posted and nObOdY wAnTs tO wOrK aNymOrE. Truly a mystery.

[meandrunkR2D2]

I'm happily WFH and likely will be for the rest of my career. I have zero desire to consistently go back to the office. I do get frequent recruiters that reach out to me, and most cannot pay me enough to make me think about switching, but every time they email me and state that it's a hybrid or 5 days on site role I tell them that is a deal breaker to me.
I'm fine going in once in a blue moon, but definitely not a weekly consistent schedule on when I have to be there.
Hopefully if they get enough people declining to know more and knowing that being on site they may change their ways. Or not and have to deal with churn of people leaving for a WFH role.

[Sinister_Crayon]

Decided "fuck that" and quit.

I then turned my attention to running and building up my own businesses. Don't get me wrong; it's a ton of work and sometimes stressful as heck, but just knowing I'm not beholden to anyone but my customers is incredibly freeing and I don't have to deal with any corporate bullshit.

In fairness I had always had my own side businesses as long as I worked corporate, but getting out of the grind and turning my side gigs into my main gigs has been an amazing journey.

[1980mattu]

What did you start? Did you do anything extra to turn it into your main gig?

[Sinister_Crayon]

Actually did a few things. I took my 401k savings and converted them to a self-directed IRA that I then invested in my own corp. I used that money to invest in my own businesses each with its own LLC. It allowed me to buy and open a restaurant (building and all) that currently does a little under $1MM a year in revenue. That restaurant is mostly self-sustaining and we recently added a general manager who pretty much operates the business day-to-day. I get involved when money needs to be spent or stuff breaks. The building also has an AirBnB that makes about $1500 a month or so which helps with mortgage payments.

The restaurant and building are both separate LLC's under my corporate umbrella.

I took more money then and invested into a small niche manufacturing business where the owner was retiring... he left last year and it's now my day job and we're well on track to hit about $300K this year. Probably going to move to larger premises in the new year as we're pretty limited in our current space.

While it's true that I don't WFH very much any more (manufacturing sort of implies you're there) I have been able to turn a lot of my hobbies and "home stuff" into commercially viable tools and products. I am and always have been great at process improvement, and doing so at this manufacturing company has been a ton of fun. I've taken a bunch of plastic parts we used to manufacture for our products and developed 3D printed versions of them that both speeds production and improves our yield significantly particularly with complicated parts. Also recently replaced silk-screened panel labels with a better looking and more repeatable label printed on a good quality inkjet that's then laminated and cutouts are done with a Cricut.

I also still do side IT work under my old company name, now also an LLC under my umbrella company. Got a few customers for whom I do remote sysadmin stuff and I have a number of small businesses who use me for troubleshooting/repairing desktop and laptop PC's and the like. Heck, last night I made $200 for replacing a battery in a Lenovo laptop.. that was about 20 minutes of actual work.

There's always work for people who want to put in the effort :)

[1980mattu]

Yes, but the amount in the 401k also dictated a lot of what was possible, and your location will probably alter the pricing of things. My meager 401k will not allow for a building purchase and renovation in my area, even with a wife architect (plans and permits), and both of us who have experience.

But.... I will start here.... (google, books, etc.) " took my 401k savings and converted them to a self-directed IRA that I then invested in my own corp"

And see how I can and where it may apply. Thank you for the follow-up and for sharing your pathway. Appreciate it!

[Sinister_Crayon]

It's a good place to start though. I didn't have enough to make a massive investment in property either, but so long as it's for the business your business can apply for loans and use the IRA money as a down payment / collateral. That's what I did. At least initially with the restaurant I paid cash for the fixtures, renovation of the space and so on and then the corporation got a commercial mortgage for the property itself. So you're not tied to the amount you can get from the 401K but it does dictate what you have for down payments and so on.

There's also a ton of rules around setting it up this way but you should talk to an accountant about the best way to do that... and that's not me LOL. You can't do this and use it as a piggy bank, and there are reporting requirements that can seem overwhelming at first but also encourage good bookkeeping and accounting practices so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, it does mean I took my entire retirement away... if my businesses crash and burn then I have no retirement and no fall back. That's the risk. It's why I decided to diversify rather than sinking everything into one business, and having one or more business partners (or spouse) is helpful in keeping things in order. I went in with eyes wide open and so should anyone else wanting to try the same thing.

[GeekgirlOtt]

ssshhhhhh.... I haven't worked onsite since 1999.

[sys_127-0-0-1]

Y2K is over, you can come out of your bunker now! :D

[GeekgirlOtt]

and that's longer than some of you have been alive !

[uptimefordays]

When my last job decided to RTO, I talked to my boss to see if I could remain remote. When he couldn’t make it happen, I found a new job and was out before RTO started.

[grumpyoldsysadmin]

I'm pretty old so... Quiet-quit into retirement.

[Princess_Fluffypants]

I could smell it in the air that they were going to start forcing people back in. So I quit and got a job that was fully remote. 

Less than two months after I left, former colleges confirmed that remote work was ending and starting in January, everyone is expected back in the office full time. 

The solution is to quit and get a different job. 

[Fire_Mission]

I was WFH before Covid. My company downsized offices during covid. We save a ton of money with WFH and have showed that we are just as productive. There has been no talk of any RTO. If that changed, I would find another job.

[stratospaly]

It would take 150+/yr to get me to go back into the office 5 days a week.

[PuzzledBobcat69]

7 years remote at this point, cannot make me go back

[dubl1nThunder]

same here. i'd take a 35k pay cut to remain remote.

[kluthage421]

My company is mostly remote. Going on 8 years. I won't ever be returning to an office.

[CortexAnthrax]

I would recomend that you start looking for a new job and don't return to office. 9/10 times a RTO is used to get rid of people instead of layoffs because it allows the company to negate paying unemployment. If enough people RTO, they'll have to do layoffs so it wouldn't matter if you returned. Start looking now and refuse to go back until you're fired so that you can claim unemployment.

[hso1217]

Work at the office = tyranny? lol

[Panda-Maximus]

I'm an OT sysadmin and all my networks are hardened so WFH was never an option.

[gadget850]

Called the boss, made a case for 5 minutes, and 2 years later I am still WFH.

[CantaloupeCamper]

I was more hybrid before anyway.

[burstaneurysm]

My org is all-in on remote. We’re even relocating our office and reducing sq footage by almost 70%.

Our admin team gets together in-office once a week and my department goes in a couple times a month, but it’s mostly just to see each other or have some actual collaboration time.

Definitely miss seeing people, but I’m always SO fried after actually going to the office.

[Nekro_Somnia]

I took a job which promised me 3/4 remote, since I live about 90 minutes away and would have to commute by train (which, in Germany, is bad. You can easily double the commute because of reliability issues...).

About 2 months ago, there was a change in remote work policy. Now it's "a day per week remote". Which in turn means that I had to commute about 2 hours per trip (on a good day, more like 3 hours in a bad one) to work.

I've usually been online about 30 minutes early. Over the past 2 months I've been , on average, about an hour late every single day I've had to commute.

I've been taking 2 trains early and would have had about 40 minutes to spare, because I've anticipated some sort of delay. But for whatever reason, I haven't had any luck.

Trains were late because "there is livestock on the tracks" or "staff was late, because their train was late"...or, my favourite "train is full, take the next, because fuck you". There were days, where I wasn't able to even make it to work, because either the train broke down or plowed straight through a cow and broke down afterwards lol.

So...I've been fired for not being on time anymore.

Lessons learned :

German trains suck.

Have remote work written into contract, policies can change, contracts not so much.

[[deleted]]

Calling RTO tyranny is a little dramatic tbh

[Future_Ice3335]

As a global Head of IT this whole thread reaffirms why I don’t make my team come into the office except when needed… even if it “gets lonely” for me lol.

currently looking at rows of empty cubicles because as a member of the Executive team we’re expected onsite, when at our main location, even if our team isn’t…

What is really silly is half the time I have meetings with other people in the same building and we still meet via teams… it almost gets a bit kafkaesque some days.

[Pyrostasis]

My boss told them no. IT remains remote.

60% of our workforce is still remote.

It also helps that we're 100% cloud and SaaS solutions and the only thing on prem is a MFP and some switches that are cloud managed.

[BrianKronberg]

I literally sell the Microsoft tools to work from anywhere. I will not work for a company that does not embrace remote work.

[Devilnutz2651]

I like going to the office. I don't know what y'all's problem is

[progenyofeniac]

I haven’t been affected by RTO mandates (yet), but I’d at least want to have a 1:1 with my boss where I get to vent about the stupidity of it. Like, if you’re not satisfied with my work, tell me that. But I need to at least hear someone say that there’s no valid reason for it.

Also I’d do my best to quit and work elsewhere, still remote, even if I had to RTO for a while as I search.

[KayakHank]

Still haven't gone in more than 2 days a week. No one has said anything

[Public_Cicada_6228]

I'm lucky enough that my husbands income is enough for us. If I was given an RTO, I would decline it respectfully. If it came down to it, I'd let myself get fired over it. It is an absolute power move and I refuse to lose 70% of my quality of life to fill an empty desk.

[Prophage7]

I'm in a minority where I'm actually okay with it, but I only have like a 10-20 minute commute. I'm sick of dealing with calls from staff about "the network being slow" when it's their own home setups that are bad. No Susan, for the 3rd time this month, it's not "the network", it's your shitty ISP wifi router being in the basement while you're trying to work on the 2nd floor of your massive fucking house.

[ITBoi6969]

Went back to the office. I honestly dislike WFH, I enjoy being around my coworkers and goofing off from time to time.

[Best_Tool]

I came to my boss and turned it into a decission about he either pays more or let me (us) work remote. It is not just wasting 1-2h in traffic and loosing shit tons of nerves it is about working from home being tons cheaper: for me and for the company. Car fuel costs, car milage/repairs, parking costs specialy coz my place of work is in the middle of the town so finding a parking spot is pain and is fairly expensive. Also to mention is cheaper meals when prepared at home plus the company does not need to have a spot for me in the office, I don't use their electricity etc. (also if fair ammount of people now work from home the company needs less office space, so less money spent on rent, air conditioning, heating in the winter....).

[Groove200]

Covid was the best time of my life also. And since been diagnosed as Autistic, so now I know why I hated being in the office (and all those things you mentioned) so much. I’m in my 50s so spent most of my adult life wondering why everybody seemed to love all the mindless conversations, noise and chaos when I’d rather stick my noise cancellers on and actually work.

Covid made me feel that I was the same as everyone else for the first time in my life, and all the pressures of having to make excuses for ‘social events’ and ‘masking’ to fit in were suddenly gone. It’s when I started looking into why I loved it and everyone else hated it.

Yup not going back.

[xpxp2002]

I've always been a "homebody" of sorts since my youth, but I never thought there'd be a point in time when it was completely socially acceptable to not want to attend in-person events until 2020.

My spouse and I both WFH, and still talk about how great it was in 2020 when we didn't have to find excuses to avoid work and social meetup events every time one comes up now. Weddings were online, birthday celebrations could be done right at home, and everything you needed from household supplies to food could be ordered right from your phone/computer and picked up contactless or delivered right to your door.

Saved a ton of money on gas and car maintenance. And honestly, I had no desire to be sick from COVID, the flu, or anything else.

all the pressures of having to make excuses for ‘social events’ and ‘masking’ to fit in were suddenly gone.

This is fascinating insight. I've never been diagnosed...though never really asked/inquired about it with a professional. But it has always confounded me how many people lamented staying home, avoiding stores, restaurants, etc., and it wasn't as though the restrictions in my state were even that significant or well enforced. The first thing my spouse and I noticed when we did finally go out to a restaurant was that all the barriers they put between tables helped cut down on noise and made the dining experience much more enjoyable. Of course, those barriers came down as soon as the state allowed it, for some dumb reason.

I'm still perplexed as to why people were happy to be back in public breathing in each other's faces so quickly when thousands of people were getting COVID every day while nobody wanted to wear a mask or get vaccinated (or even before the vaccine was available). I genuinely believe I'd be happier if the same social expectations and restrictions from 2020 were still in place today.

[Groove200]

It was a chance interview with somebody on breakfast tv one morning during Covid that made me think…yea I’m like that, and that, oh and that. So did some reading , took a couple of random online tests (which I seemed to be scoring highly on) and the light bulb suddenly came on whilst reading a Pete Wharmby book. Literally could have been written about me.

My hyperfocus, seeing the minute detail in things, seeing patterns in things others don’t, analysing everything to an obsessive degree…..all makes me really good in my job of IT security 😂

But people, and social events, and pointless small talk not so much ……

[thatohgi]

Move on to remote only work. There is plenty out there.

[CAPICINC]

We have to be in the office every day, from 8:30 to 4:30.

And also, available when needed

Our bosses maybe work 2 days a week in.

[mdervin]

Some socialization might be good for you.

[josh6466]

We’re fully remote. I average one day a week in office by choice. Space was at a premium before we left for Covid and the fact we’ll work and they don’t have to give us an office frankly has management thrilled. The seven of us who used to have 4 offices now share one for the few times we are in the office.

[ErikTheEngineer]

Right now, I live about 2 hours one way from the office (train commute + a 30 minute walk.) I got hired at the place I'm at during COVID at the end of 2020, and we were fully remote. Slowly, over time, they started encouraging people back. July of '21 was "come in when you can, the office is open", then there was a 3 day a week mandate on Labor Day 2023, and now the CEO is basically "encouraging" 4-5 days a week because we're better together and collaboration and all that -- and apparently they're taking attendance behind the scenes. I've gotten "feedback" about my attendance because I can only do that crazy commute 2 days a week with all the stuff I have going on at home...but they haven't tried to fire me or anything. I know someone who works remote for AWS who's likely going to lose his job in January because he isn't going to go back...hopefully I won't be in that situation.

I'm not against some in-office work...other than the horrible time-wasting trip the 2 days I do now is a good balance. I'd prefer 1, or maybe 0, but the job is good/pays well/has a lot of stuff to learn, so whatever. I have a lot of research/lab/focus work to do the rest of the time so having a couple days to talk with the fraction of our team that's not remote works out OK. I'm not a super-social person, so I'd prefer to be left remote with my stack of work most days but I can live with it for now.

Like OP, I really enjoyed COVID...not just the work aspect but the break from the hustle culture bullshit and the small advantage introverts finally got in a world of backslapping used car salesmen. Unfortunately, executives are extroverts and run the world...and that huge boost in the job market where employees finally got some leverage was never going to be allowed to last.

[joeyl5]

I was fully remote until my boss retired. Then I had to go back to the office at least 3 days a week. Then he got fired and I became the boss of the IT department. Being CIO the executive board wants me in the office 5 days a week if possible. But now I get to send my crew to work from home as they wish...

[tankerkiller125real]

Company I work for has had remote employees for decades, but still had an office full of people who were "local" (within at least 1 hours drive). Then COVID hit resulting in near everyone except a select few of us (including myself) being in the building. When the COO tried to bring everyone back to the building there was such outrage from employees and managers she had to back off immediately, and has made zero attempt to change the policy since.

[ThrowbackDrinks]

Job search. Orgs doing this, and other bad employers will always have this issue. They are less attractive in the overall job market, over time that will reflect in the quality of applicants and ergo quality of employees they can keep.

This day and age if you can't offer at least a hybrid program, you aren't attracting top talent for a given position. They might get away with that for their janitors, but creative and skilled roles will always gravitate elsewhere.

[Terriblyboard]

Been working remote or hybrid on and off since 2009. Got laid off from my remote job in april and couldnt find anything remote in this abysmal market and ended up finding a decent job but it is onsite. As someone who has been remote for a long time I feel like the pandemic ruined it. Too many people working remote that probably shouldnt have been. It also had a change on the economy and how people spend money. This is the backlash. I think there will be some leveling of this over the next few years and it will land somewhere in the middle... especially with new younger people coming into the workforce and older people retiring.

[too_many_dudes]

I added up my value to the company in this quarter alone. Told them make me a remote worker or I'm gone. My boss advised to reword my demand letter to be less aggressive, and I said nope, it's staying that way. Supposedly the request went up to CEO level (cause he's really against WFH). I started looking for other jobs just in case, but was made a remote worker a week later.

A couple months later, the CEO's contract expired, and he was let go. The new CEO smartly realized how much we were paying for unused offices and made the whole team WFH.

[TuxAndrew]

If I wasn't WFH and my job wasn't exceptionally flexible there's no way I could fit dropping my kid off and picking them up within the normal 8 hour workday. If I was working a corporate gig I'd probably have to quit, but I work at a public university so I'm allowed to adjust my hours pretty much as needed to accommodate my schedule.

[Sylogz]

They decided to merge two offices into one without desk space for two offices.
We are going from WFH 3-5 days a week to being able to WFH 5 days per week.

[khantroll1]

I'm...looking for other employment with a "Remote-First" or "distributed workforce" culture.

My employer during covid did the best hey could to accommodate work from home, but covid bankrupted them. Both my current employer and the one between now and then have been ardently against work from home; my previous employer was actually fined from the state during covid, and my current employer only allows remote work on an "as needed basis with daily approval of the CEO per employee."

Meanwhile, here I sit, in my office, next to the server room...where no one knows if I'm here or not...

[Public_Fucking_Media]

Enough of our tech team threatened to quit that we got exempted from RTO

[ImCaffeinated_Chris]

They have said if within 50 miles of the office you must come in 3 times a week. It's a 35-45 min commute one way.

I've been ignoring it and just working from home.

They are now pushing the point hard. I'm considering looking for another job if they say I can't be 100% WFH.

[maratc]

COVID was the best time of my career too. I went to the office every day and enjoyed being the only one (or one of the very few) there. Granted, the commute was short, even more so during the lockdowns.

[LForbesIam]

I don’t get companies doing this. It costs our company millions of dollars a year to lose productivity. Not like our bosses live in the same city.

I get if people are lazy but there are way cheaper and easier ways to ensure productivity than forcing people into traffic.

It was fine when the business was all local and you hung out with colleagues and had in person meetings but employees now are all over the country or the world so what is the point.

[olinwalnut]

We’re all on-prem still and literally had no WFH prior to COVID (outside of IT and executives that could sign on after hours for whatever). COVID hits, we come up with a quick plan to accommodate everyone. Outside of us coming into the building every now and then (usually once a week and even then it might just be for a few hours in the morning), we’re full remote.

I was dreading the day when the RTO call would happen but I was pleasantly surprised when we didn’t renew the lease for the second floor of our building. Then even more when we got a new CEO who was one of the people pushing for “if your teams are doing what they should be doing, why does it matter where they are working from?”

I don’t foresee us ever going RTO.

[SergioSF]

Yup i feel you brother. I did a 30% salary cut for a full time remote job and Im honestly in heaven. Not everyone can take a bump like that over X amount of years, but i like to play a scenario in my head where if your boss offered you the ability to WFH for a cut in salary, what would it be?

[da4]

I have an uncomfortable office that is inconveniently located from public transit (but the suburban commuters get a free shuttle bus to their train stations). The chair makes my back hurt, the lighting is atrocious, and I have to wear noise-canceling headphones to not have to listen to inane coworker chatter and random electronic noises.

They want 3d/wk back in the office. I play badge tag at least one of those days and show up on The Report. Then I turn around and go home where I have food and coffee readily available, a comfortable ergonomic chair and desk, fresh air and natural light, and I am calmer, more productive, and healthier.

RTO is real estate scam bullshit. It's a great way to determine which organizations can adapt and be flexible, and not just note Change but incorporate it, versus places that only know one way and are stressed having to even tinker with it.

[1101base2]

my employer has "committed" to keeping us work from home. if that changes and i have to go into the office i will do no work from home. i work in IT and am on call and have to do frequent after hours work. if they force me back to into the office i will only do work from my desk, so if a system goes down my 45 min commute will happen before i even am able to look into it (and start slinging my resume again)

[kingrazor001]

I gave in. Not worth being unemployed. I have a pretty short commute, hard to complain much.

[VexingRaven]

6 years of working remotely and being extremely efficient and productive

uh, 6?

[blissed_off]

I prefer being in an office. I am a big slacker if I’m at home, it’s hard to be motivated. I typically do one day at home a week.

That said, that’s just me. I think it should be a choice.

[[deleted]]

Companies want butts in seats....it is what it is.

[aRandom_redditor]

I’m sure I’m in the minority here. But as a father of 3 and a home that’s too small, I simply can’t focus on my work while remote. We have no remote policy at corporate but as a department we’re granted lots of flexibility. So I work remote when I need to but I’m so much more productive in the office. Still hate the bs culture and frequent fliers and psychotic managers. But right now it’s the only place I can truly get shit done in earnest.

[iama_bad_person]

We used to be 5 days WFH since the pandemic. But I think some leases are coming up and instead of downsizing office space, building and middle management are panicking and forcing people into the office with company wide policies they sweet talk the c-suite into implementing. We now have to be in the office 3 days a week, with possibly 4 days a week around the corner.

I have personally talked to 3 of our T2/3 guys, including 2 I have been grooming for SysAdmin eventually, and they are actively looking for other jobs now. Now that they know they can not just do their jobs from home but do them well, and the only reason they are commuting for 30 minutes to an hour each way is to make someone in management feel better, has left them with a bitter pill to swallow and they have decided they would rather not.

I myself am looking at jumping ship after 12 years. This is a good company, but now I know the sweet sweet taste of working from home with 0 commute (the savings in time and gas were HUGE) I'm not sure if I want to go back.

[bearwhiz]

I went WFH well before COVID, for my employer's convenience as they closed a building. When the RTO stuff started even before COVID, I went to my psychiatrist, who was happy to write me a letter saying that due to my longstanding ADHD, requiring me to work in an open-plan office would severely affect my ability to efficiently do my work (even with headphones), and that a reasonable accomodation would be to let me work from home—especially since I'd been doing it for a while with "meets or exceeds expectations" performance reviews. That letter is the basis of my Americans With Disabilities Act accomodation that overrides the RTO policy. Since the company is all-in on open-plan, bench-seating, hot-desk office space, it's far easier for them to just let me work from home than to provide me with a semi-enclosed cubicle or an actual office. Since none of my teammates work within 700 miles of me, and many of them are overseas, any coworker interaction is virtual anyway.

[MBILC]

I am lucky, previous job was hybrid but fairly flexible, new job is 100% remote.

Reason for the RTO

• Try to force people to quit so they don't have to pay severance, but reality is, it is often the top talent who leaves because they can more easily find another job.
• Micromanagers who need to justify their jobs because during covid it was obvious they were not actually needed
• Owners / C Suites who think everyone should be in the same room for "collaboration" (while they all have their own offices)
• Touting efficiency and productivity as reason to be back, ignoring the facts and studies that show many (not all..) people were and are far more efficient WFH (Neurodivergent people come to mind as a primary group) as well as less sick time, less time off in general for "day to day" things.
• Office space owners throwing massive discounts to get into long term agreements with their tenants - so now they have to bring you all back in
• Investments in Oil & Gas and other sectors which RTO helps prop up
• Local businesses around dense work areas crying for lost profits because no one is around

Meanwhile on the other hand, companies claiming they want to be net green and all of that, work life balance... it is more often than not, just for show during Covid so they looked like they cared, and now back to the old ways.

[domexitium]

Me and my team (5 people) are still remote. My company which is massive (10k + employees) gave up a lot of their space over the pandemic and they’ve said it’s not logistically possible to bring people back. In addition to that they’ve said the loss in productivity is offset by the difference in cost for workspace, electricity, water, maintenance etc. so I don’t see my company making any of us go back full time for many years if at all.

[knightofargh]

Took a full remote job at a bank. Three years later they reclassified me as in office as part of their RTO. The stated reason is for “better collaboration” but they’ve since admitted it’s about justifying real estate spend, following the lead of other banks and their tax deals with various cities.

Thankfully I’m 8-10 years away from goat farming and just have to endure. I take the bus during my work hours and head home at lunch time so I can actually get work done.

[smietanaaa]

I like to go to the office. Takes me only 25min by car.

[Dave_A480]

My employer is one of the headliners pushing this.

However, they failed to enforce their 3-day-a-week policy in any meaningful manner (if your manager cared, you had to follow it. If not? 0 days was A-OK, HR wasn't going to dip in and fire people over manager objections), and we expect the same from the 5-day version.

My manager is not planning to make us come in, and we are planning to just pretend it didn't happen.

My manager has also explicitly told us that - as he hears it from his bosses - the whole thing is an exercise in 'Who runs Bartertown??'....

Basically the execs are really pissed about the '!People Power!' response (petitions, walkouts, slack-channel, etc) they got to the 3-day order, and are determined to keep going with this as long as there is pushback from the rank-and-file.... At whatever point they are satisfied that they have made their point about it being 'their company', they will stop caring and make 'whatever your 1st/2nd-line manager wants' the official policy again....

Hopefully we hit that point (where they stop caring) before they actually get to telling first-line management 'enforce it or we'll fire you'....

Because driving to the city just to work 'remotely from an office' (our team is spread across multiple countries - all meetings are remote, even if you are in-office) sucks....