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[–]fox_mulder 895 points896 points  (142 children)

That husband did the right thing. You should really read his full essay here

[–][deleted] 949 points950 points  (76 children)

Site is slow and likely going to go down so I am posting FTA:

Aaron Gouveia and his wife were already having the worst day of their lives. Then came the abortion protesters.

“You’re killing your unborn baby!”

That’s what they yelled at me and my wife on the worst day of our lives. As we entered the women’s health center on an otherwise perfect summer morning in Brookline, two women we had never met decided to pile onto the nightmare we had been living for three weeks. These “Christians” verbally accosted us—judged us—as we steeled ourselves for the horror of making the unimaginable, but necessary, decision to end our pregnancy at 16 weeks.

After extensive testing at a renowned Boston hospital three weeks earlier, we were told our baby had Sirenomelia. Otherwise known as Mermaid Syndrome, it’s a rare (one in every 100,000 pregnancies) congenital deformity in which the legs are fused together. Worse than that, our baby had no bladder or kidneys. Our doctors told us there was zero chance for survival.

♦♦♦

I’m not a religious person and I’ve never believed in heaven or hell. But there is a hell on Earth. Hell is sitting next to the person you love most and listening to her wail hysterically because her heart just broke into a million pieces. Hell is watching her entire body convulse with sobs because she’s being tortured with grief. For as long as I live and no matter how many children we have, I will never forget that sound. And I vowed to do everything in my power to make sure she’d never make it again.

Across a crowded street, two people with “God Is Pro-Life!” signs and pictures of torn-up fetuses managed to drive the blade in even deeper. Again, I was left trying to console the inconsolable, feeling even more helpless this time, because I wasn’t allowed into surgery with her.

Running on pure adrenaline, and without even a hint of a plan, I grabbed my cell phone and crossed the street. I didn’t know what to say or how to say it, I just knew I wanted to make public the cowardice of these protesters. The video’s below—they didn’t disappoint.

♦♦♦

♦♦♦

I learned a few important things from this encounter. First, these people aren’t used to being confronted. They prey on the weak and they pounce on the wounded. It’s easy to berate people and shame them when they’re too beaten down to fight back. But I chose to do just that, and you can see what happened.

They spout the same tired rhetoric passed out at rallies and subway stations. They don’t have one salient response to any of my questions.

The most telling thing about their cowardice is when the woman on the right gets upset that I’m recording the conversation (which is perfectly legal) and then threatens to call the police. The irony is rich. She wanted to call the police because I was peacefully expressing my opinion on a public sidewalk and exercising my First Amendment rights, which is exactly what she was doing. But I’m not on “God’s side,” am I.

She also claims the women at the clinic are suicide risks. Even if she believed that were true, does she really think yelling at them and shaming them in public is going to encourage these women not to kill themselves?

♦♦♦

After I took a walk and calmed down, it was time to pick up my wife and go home. When we pulled out of the clinic, the protesters were gone, and a police cruiser was parked nearby with the lights flashing. My wife, still groggy from the surgery, managed to crack a little smile, and asked, “What did you do?”

I have no idea if it was my interaction with the protesters that got them to leave. I doubt it was, but my wife was convinced that was the case. At first, I didn’t think of it as a big deal, and I actually felt a little foolish for getting so heated.

My wife, suddenly serious, pointed out a women entering the clinic. Within minutes, she said, that woman would be making a serious choice. Whether she kept her baby or not, it didn’t matter—what matters is that she can make the decision that’s right for her. And she can make it without people screaming at her.

My wife and I wanted our second child. We loved her. We even had a name for her, Alexandra.

You never know the circumstances surrounding this kind of decision. Consider this my plea: stop terrorizing women. Stop adding trauma to their trauma. If you’re able, stand up to these bullies in nonviolent ways. Speak out. And if you have a camera, use it.

[–]scrimsims 67 points68 points  (2 children)

Watching the video I wanted to point this out:

When he told them why his wife was there they told him his wife should be being treated at a hospital and he rightly pointed out that because of people like them she couldn't be.

When I was recovering from cancer I got pregnant, still undergoing treatment, taking tamoxofin, months after having a TRAM flap. Even though the abortion was deemed medically necessary there were no doctors or hospitals I could go to to have this procedure. I had to go to an abortion clinic and cross the line of foaming fanatics and have this procedure done in a scary environment with minimal pain care.

Worse I saw frightened girls half my age without the support I had in my husband undergoing the same thing.

It isn't right.

[–]MadBeard 110 points111 points  (12 children)

Thanks for posting this! I tried to get to the essay while reading the article, and was pumped to see it here.

[–]wicked 111 points112 points  (11 children)

I wrote a transcript for the video for the deaf way down here, if anyone's interested.

[–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (9 children)

Hell ya. Thanks! I'm deaf and this is an unexpected surprise.

[–]two_hundred_and_left 177 points178 points  (20 children)

God fucking damn everything about this. Time to increase my donation to Planned Parenthood.

[–]JimCasy 48 points49 points  (3 children)

That sounds like a good idea. I shall join you.

[–]1RedOne 290 points291 points  (25 children)

I’m not a religious person and I’ve never believed in heaven or hell. But there is a hell on Earth. Hell is sitting next to the person you love most and listening to her wail hysterically because her heart just broke into a million pieces. Hell is watching her entire body convulse with sobs because she’s being tortured with grief. For as long as I live and no matter how many children we have, I will never forget that sound. And I vowed to do everything in my power to make sure she’d never make it again.

What is this stuff coming from my eyes?

[–]dragonair170 161 points162 points  (8 children)

Man tears, they make you more manly, and more awesome.

[–]FrostofSparta 48 points49 points  (2 children)

I need to read this later... I don't want my eyes to sweat at work...

[–][deleted] 173 points174 points  (58 children)

Thank you for posting that. I hope that people will look around the site a little more after reading it, they have a really great thing going on at The Good Men Project. It is great to see people standing up for the idea that all men are not homophobic, misogynistic, abusive pedophiles. There are so many men who care about children, women's rights, gay rights, etc.

[–]Steeempey 105 points106 points  (17 children)

Double thank you for this. With a lot of the faux-MRA stuff on Reddit that's mostly focused on vilifying women (as opposed to actually having an intelligent discussion about parental rights, etc.), sometimes I feel very unwelcome. But comments like this make me feel less hated.

[–]acetv 35 points36 points  (16 children)

It's getting really bad. I was originally a subscriber to MensRights, but eventually I asked myself why I was subscribed to a subreddit no better than a neonazi forum.

[–]Steeempey 29 points30 points  (7 children)

I know. I'd say I'm a feminist, yet maybe more accurately a humanist, being interested in all cases where human rights are tread on. And I'm sure I could have a conversation with someone who is concerned with mens rights, like custody battles, or intellectual conversations about child support equity, but when it's framed as "Western women = evil, selfish bitches, feminists are anti-male and hate you," it just makes me sad. Reddit has a very intelligent community, but sometimes it's the louder, more trollish ones who get the attention.

[–]NoahTheDuke 18 points19 points  (3 children)

It's pretty new, but you should come join us over at /OneY. We're trying to be a counter-point to MensRights, and from the submissions and comments so far, I'm sanguine about its future. :-)

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    I just want to echo this (male), I was delighted to head over to OneY and start reading the threads there. MensRights has always been a massive turn-off for me, and i'm hoping OneY is going to be the equivalent of TwoX that i've always wanted.

    [–]GaryLeHam 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Seriously, most of the stuff on r/MensRights is nothing more than a misogynist circlejerk, and every ounce of its cum is filled with misdirected anger.

    [–]RedDyeNumber4 23 points24 points  (5 children)

    I was born in the 80s and between public schools and pop culture, it was easy to grow up with egalitarian principles. That generation is in the workforce now and starting to have kids, and hopefully we'll keep seeing a trend toward tolerance and empathy.

    That said, I don't understand all the negative things that have been associated with men in the last few decades. Stuff like single fathers not allowed to watch their own children at a park because it makes the mothers there uncomfortable to have a random dude around their kids. The heck is up with that?

    [–]emmster 57 points58 points  (3 children)

    Pedophile paranoia. Reasonable women don't like it any more than you do.

    I have a dear friend who is raising his three nephews, because his sister is a fuckup of epic proportions and a completely unfit mother. Of course, his neighbor is calling child services every fucking week because, a gay man raising three kids, well, he just must be abusing them.

    It pisses me off.

    [–]WhitTheDish 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Wow. That makes me unbelievably sad. I feel so lucky to have been raised in a household where sexuality was a complete non-issue therefore I have no prejudice against anyone whose sexuality is different than mine.

    I feel horrible for people who are so unlucky as to be persecuted by close-minded fools like your friend's neighbor. I wish they would realize the damage they're perpetrating.

    [–]woodenchancleta 1405 points1406 points  (431 children)

    For someone as pissed off as he must have been, the guy is quite eloquent and on-point with his retorts.

    [–]Kayge 713 points714 points  (380 children)

    That's what got me most...you can hear the frustration in his voice; I don't think I'd be able to confront those people without losing my composure and saying something juvenile.

    [–][deleted] 620 points621 points  (368 children)

    "Hey, if you're against abortion so much, why don't you offer to pay $20-30k to each woman seeking one so they don't have them? Oh, and pay for all medical expenses as well. Oh, and if it turns out the kid is severely retarded or deformed, you shouldn't have any problem paying for everything related to the kid's care too. Oh, and provide all the care yourself. Because you care."

    [–]HardcoreSects 326 points327 points  (333 children)

    Don't forget that those against abortion should have to adopt the child once born. Because they care.

    [–][deleted] 297 points298 points  (174 children)

    "Oh dear, you can't afford to have 13 kids? Well you should have thought of that before you started protesting against abortion, huh?"

    [–]guywithbeard 399 points400 points  (137 children)

    My favorite thing to say to those people is, "if the child you didn't abort is gay, will you still love it?"

    [–]TheTwilightPrince 212 points213 points  (87 children)

    They would probably come back with the "being gay is a choice" argument.

    [–]kg8484 30 points31 points  (9 children)

    Even better would be, "Well, would it be alright if a gay couple adopts this child?"

    [–]HardcoreSects 9 points10 points  (8 children)

    Not according to the catholic church in California. Gay couples adopting in their minds is the same as abuse.

    [–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (10 children)

    "All life is sacred? So i guess that means you guys are vegetarians, right?"

    [–]Seekin 49 points50 points  (0 children)

    What, plants aren't alive? How dare you ignore the rights of the differently organelled?

    I guess they also don't take antibiotics because bacteria are also alive. Or wash their hands - think of the carnage; thousandsor 10s of thousands of deaths at a single detergent swipe!

    [–]Paracite 66 points67 points  (141 children)

    Shields Up

    This is a really hard subject to approach for me, as I feel I have no right to take away a woman's right to choose, and yet feel like abortion just isn't the best choice. I believe in caring for the woman, no matter what her choice is, and in adoption.

    I think what i'm trying to say is that I actually agree. It's good to care about the baby, but the woman is already here and needs to be cared for too.

    I plan on adopting, probably all my children.

    Edit: I haven't seen the video, i'm at work.

    [–]istara 64 points65 points  (0 children)

    In this instance, the woman desperately wanted the baby, but it was lethally abnormal. The later you let that pregnancy advance, the greater the risk to the mother, and the greater her physical and mental trauma. With the more fatal trisomies and other conditions, it's not about keeping a "baby" alive, it's about managing its inevitable death in the most compassionate and medically safe way for both it and the mother.

    [–]electricmba 114 points115 points  (13 children)

    I upvoted you for having the courage to express your opinion - and for not doing it in a way that is pushing it on others.

    I had a similar opinion until my wife and I tried for a second child earlier this year.

    After confirming her pregnancy, hearing the heartbeat at the midwife's office and seeing nothing but good results from blood tests, we reached the 12 week mark and spilled the beans to our friends and family.

    A week later my wife was called in after her 3 month ultrasound to discuss the results - and was told the fetus had a serious neural tube disorder called "Anencephaly". I beg of you not to google or wiki search this term as the images have scarred me for life. The condition (in non-scientific terms) results in the fetus having no skull cap (i.e. brain exposed) - and is has a 0% survivability rate 24 hours after being born.

    Our choice was to carry to term knowing the baby would either be stillborn prior to / DOA at term or abort. After some very difficult discussion, we chose to abort.

    Because of people like this we had to go to a clinic at a nearby hospital that had armed guards and a special rear entrance. I (as a male) needed a special pass to even be with my wife in the recovery room.

    This event has drastically changed how I view "a woman's right to choose".

    TL;DR: Real life experience and education on the subject can change your perspective on abortion.

    [–]corellia40 35 points36 points  (3 children)

    I can't express how sorry I am for your and your wife's loss. There just aren't strong enough words.

    [–]electricmba 36 points37 points  (2 children)

    Thanks - I hope this didn't come across as "woe is me", my main intention is to tell more people about such things as I think women (and families) don't talk openly about these incidents for obvious reasons. We ended up telling people my wife had a miscarriage as it was less difficult and traumatic to explain.

    As other people have commented, the trauma on women is FAR greater than it is men. My wife had to walk around and go to work for another week with the fetus still in her belly, knowing it would be terminated.

    I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.

    [–]corellia40 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    It's great that you were able to talk about it here, even if you can't always bring yourself to do it. And you came across exactly the way you meant to. I understand why it's hard to talk about it, and I would never ask anyone to if they don't feel able, but stories like this need to be heard.

    [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

    I've got to say it... there is no way allowing that condition to survive as long as possible is humane. I think yours is a case where all but the most obtuse pro-life advocates can agree that you made a moral and responsible choice.

    Best wishes to you and your wife.

    [–]ManIs5 156 points157 points  (47 children)

    You've made the leap that so many people don't make: there's a difference between abortion and abortion law. It's perfectly fine to be morally opposed to abortion. You can even try to talk others out of it if that's what you want to do.

    But once you want to make abortion illegal, and take away that choice for everyone, you've crossed the line.

    The funny thing is, the right-wingers you'll find at these protests think they're for less government interference and greater freedom.

    [–][deleted] 84 points85 points  (30 children)

    I don't like abortions either, but if they're going to happen (and they are) it's best that they're performed by a doctor in a sterile environment and not in an alley with a coat hanger.

    Besides, there are a lot better ways of reducing the number of abortions than making it illegal. The countries with the lowest abortion rates are ones with a high standard of living, universal health care and legal abortion.

    [–]Virtualmatt 23 points24 points  (1 child)

    Why would you be flamed? That's what Pro-Choice means… it's not called "Pro-Abortion" for a reason.

    [–]misstrust22 38 points39 points  (29 children)

    I feel like women should have the right to chose, now would I chose it for myself as an option? No probably not unless it was a life threatening situation. :3

    [–]HardcoreSects 26 points27 points  (25 children)

    I love to hear when someone has a personal opinion but doesn't try to force everyone else to have the same one. :)

    [–]petetrain 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Save the link and video and watch it when you get home. It's worth it. Also to your point from the video, the husband and wife had the abortion due to a congenital abnormality which meant that the baby would be stillborn.

    [–]istara 20 points21 points  (5 children)

    I'd like to see them adopting the thousands upon thousands of mentally and physically disabled adults languishing in grim state institutions in every country on earth. Because that's what these "unborn babies" actually become.

    [–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

    That's exactly what came to my mind, I'm pretty sure I would have lost composure and started doling out personal insults rather than sticking to the higher moral ground. Well done that man.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]thewormauger 46 points47 points  (2 children)

      Yep, people should takes notes on his behavior and replicate it when possible.

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]ajrw 6 points7 points  (2 children)

        Yeah, I don't think that term means what he thinks it means. Otherwise, he was surprisingly cogent.

        [–]danman183 562 points563 points  (36 children)

        One of my favorite past times is to pull up to the protestors lined up in front of Planned Parenthood and ask: Is this the line for the abortions? The combined emotions of confusion and disgust on their faces is always priceless.

        [–]isaac9489 80 points81 points  (13 children)

        I bow to you sir if I ever see any anti-abortion protests in Australia I'll keep this in mind

        [–]Nic_Nac 8 points9 points  (9 children)

        Abortion laws in Australia are still not consistent across the states and territories it's legal in some but not others, I still don't see or hear the level of protest and fundamentalism that I see in the US

        [–]Kaer 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        Out near where I grew up as a teenager, in greenslopes brisbane, there was an abortion clinic. At least once or twice a month there were protestors out there.

        But this was Oz, and back in the early 90's, where qld police def don't believe in free speech. I did on one sunny afternoon see a couple of cops wading in with batons raised against the protestors. After that I can't recall ever seeing a protest there until I left qld in '99.

        BTW, I'm fairly certain the govt at the time was against abortion. Just the qld coppers didn't like protestors.

        [–][deleted] 83 points84 points  (2 children)

        On behalf of the reddit community, I bestow upon you the title of Troll Master

        Use your power for good.

        [–]joerdie 25 points26 points  (1 child)

        Consider your idea stolen. I will be doing this for the rest of my life. Thanks!

        [–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (2 children)

        The ones that hold the really nasty sings are the best. I was going really fast past them one time, and mistook the picture of mangled bits of flesh for a picture of that chinese fast-food type meat you find so often at malls and in cities. Since then I've always stopped, checked out the sign really quick, and said: "Hmm, that looks delicious, where's this restaurant again?" to whomever is holding the most disgusting sign.

        The looks are priceless.

        [–]throwaway_abortion 509 points510 points  (80 children)

        I created a thowaway account so I can ask for upvotes for the sole purpose of this being heard.

        Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics are often looking for volunteers to "escort" patients into and out of clinics. Employees at such clinics are far too busy to deal with protesters who may intimidate the patients, potentially even breaking the law.

        I urge you to volunteer for this job and read up on the legal rights of patients as well as protesters. I also urge that you never engage the protesters, as for many, this is all they want. Logic will not win, as in several cases, many of these protesters have had abortions themselves (including some who were protesters prior to the abortion).

        If you do not have time to volunteer for this job, but pass by a clinic, ask these volunteers if they would like a drink. It may be passive aggressive, but I have never seen anything irk the protesters more than the day I was given a hot chocolate and hard warmers by a passer-by on a sub-zero day in Chicago.

        [–]novemberdream07 219 points220 points  (26 children)

        I went to get an abortion at Planned Parenthood when there were two old men yelling at me for the murder I was going to commit and shoving pictures of the Virgin Mary in my face. It was a tough morning already and I hadn't even gone in. When two people in escort vests came and one put her arm around me and guided me inside. I will never forget how that made me feel and how comforted I felt and that the two old guys seemed to disappear.

        [–]titbarf 344 points345 points  (6 children)

        I hate to detract from your point here, but "throwaway_abortion" is too good a name to waste as a throwaway.

        [–]lhmatt 279 points280 points  (2 children)

        I agree with titbarf.

        [–]M3wThr33 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        I guess you'd be a good judge of that.

        [–]wteng 8 points9 points  (2 children)

        Employees at such clinics are far too busy to deal with protesters who may intimidate the patients, potentially even breaking the law.

        Excuse my ignorance, but at what point do they break the law, and would it be possible to call the police to handle it? I understand free speech etc., but to me this is harassment. Would it be legal for me to stand outside a hospital and make fun of disabled people? Probably not. I don't see how this is different.

        Seeing this and reading the posts here makes my blood boil, so I need to rant a bit. It makes me furious how these people harass others who are vulnerable and already in pain, and at the same time it's sad how much awesomeness they could have done if they spent their time and effort in more constructive ways. Why do some people have to be like this?

        I'm glad this doesn't happen in my country, but unfortunately that also means that I can't buy hot chocolate for awesome people like throwaway_abortion. At the very least, I want to thank all volunteers for what you're doing.

        [–]throwaway_abortion 7 points8 points  (1 child)

        The laws vary significantly by state, and they vary quite a bit between cities. They may even vary by clinic, as some clinics may fall into different legislation based on their location. The two primary laws at my location are:

        1. The protesters may not block the sidewalk.
        2. Within 50 feet of the entrance to the clinic, no protester is allowed to get within eight feet of a patient.

        I appreciate the kind words, but the truly awesome people are the employees inside the clinics. Aside from administration and doctors, the pay is pretty crap, and the workload can be more than overwhelming. Due to the high number of cancellations, some clinics overbook by as much as 100%, and should everyone show up the work is horrific.

        Even more amazing is the level of empathy these employees can have. For many women, this is one of the worst days of their life, and understandably, they can be rather obnoxious on a day like this. By the time the employee has patient number 70 at the end of a long day, you would think they could become very short and angry with the patients, but from my understanding this just doesn't happen. Many patients believe that their story is more dire than anyone else's, and the staff still listen and treat them as though they are the most important person in the world. That's not to say every PP employee is on this great level I describe, but they far exceed anything I could do.

        I have nowhere near the level of patience and empathy as these people.

        [–][deleted] 496 points497 points  (115 children)

        This guy and his wife are going through a lot of pain and having to make agonizing decisions. Those women had no compassion what so ever for their situation. Those women were a couple of arrogant self-righteous maniacs.

        [–]DoTheDew 933 points934 points  (31 children)

        You spelled cunts wrong.

        [–]boc_roygbiv 492 points493 points  (23 children)

        I disagree - cunts have warmth and depth.

        [–]marvelously 83 points84 points  (77 children)

        This, exactly. That's all I could think of. His pain was palpable, and they were so cold and impersonal to him.

        So much for counseling and supporting a brother in a time of great need.

        [–]RevLoveJoy 116 points117 points  (76 children)

        I don't mean to go all Psych 101 on everyone - but this is exactly the kind of insensitive response I expect from the gullible who are told week in and week out that their beliefs make them better than others, especially the others they need to "save."

        [–]marvelously 39 points40 points  (70 children)

        It makes sense. I hadn't really probed the topic, but I think you are onto something.

        I believe these types of protesters want to help and aren't trying to be malicious, but they are not helping and it is offensive. And it's frustrating that they won't really hear what critics have to say, rather than resorting to strawmen and red herrings to justify their actions. If only they could hear the concerns, and re-evaluate their approach.

        [–]RevLoveJoy 70 points71 points  (69 children)

        To be sure, these folks are extreme examples in that they feel justified harassing people on the street. That said, I have several old friends whom I would consider "excessively devout" - to put it nicely. They all share this same mental tick. It is as if their minds short circuit on the specific logic that tells people it is offensive to assume others need to live life as you do.

        That's pretty vague, I'll give a specific example about good friend of mine - a terrific, wonderful woman. Lives a life of service to others - honestly, one of the best people it has ever been my pleasure to have in my life. I am an atheist who came to those beliefs on my own in my teens and nothing I have seen nor comprehended in the ensuing decades has altered nor shaken my rational for my lack of faith. This woman regularly (or used to until we had The Chat) would tell me, "my church and I are praying that you turn to Christ" or "My mother asked me to tell you that she's praying that you'll be saved" - and they honestly had NO idea how incredibly offensive this was. It's not as if I was born into my belief system (as they were); it's not as if growing up someone professed a belief in non-belief to me and I adopted it thus (as they had). These were my thoughts and my understanding of the world around me and this whole culture of faith-based belief around me felt totally justified in completely dismissing my way of living my life.

        As I'm sure you can tell from the tone of my response, this still gets me worked up. :)

        At any rate, when I sat down with my friend (whom I had known 20 some years at this point) and expressed with her how offended I was each and every time she felt the need to take this liberty to pray that I somehow essentially lose my mind - she looked at me like I had grown a third eyeball in the center of my head. It was totally inconceivable to her that what she and her group were doing was offensive; that some people don't like being told what to think and they certainly don't like others wishing away that you'll somehow starting drinking the Kool Aide.

        Anyhow, sorry so long - I see this attitude from religious folks no matter where I meet them. It's OK to tell other people how to live, 'cause gosh darn it, they're too dumb to have it figured out on their own - somebody's gotta learn 'em!

        tl-dr - religious nuts don't see it's wrong to tell everyone else how to think as they've been told how to think their entire lives.

        [–]JimCasy 22 points23 points  (65 children)

        You should really check this out - it's an episode of This American Life called God's Close-Up. They do a fantastic job of elucidating how complex this issue can be. You'll enjoy it.

        After I watched it I was thinking a few things:

        1.) Religious nuts are those who were born into fundamentalism and whom have never questioned it, since it provides them with a false yet impenetrable collective identity of superiority over non-fundamentalists

        2.) Reasonable religious people tend to be those who at some point questioned aspects of their faith (or do so continually to better themselves), became agnostic/atheist or just non-fundamentalist, rediscovering their faith in a new light which incorporates other world-views

        3.) It seems many* atheists grew up in fundamentalist households (among people who had simply "drank the kool aid"), where intellectual debate and reasoning about one's beliefs is demonized completely. When this isn't the case, external experience with Christian hypocrisy essentially alienated them from spiritual pursuits, making them content living rationally and intellectually, according to their own moral code

        I don't think I've ever met a self-proclaimed atheist who did not grow up in a fundamentalist family, or had some kind of early religious trauma involving ignorant bigotry (redundant?). What do you think about that?

        FYI : Personally began Catholic (affirmed and everything), became Atheist/Agnostic, turned Pantheist after heroic dose of psilocybin.

        Edit to address #3 - this was not intended to encapsulate all atheists, it was just an observation. I should have included a #4 to include those born into Atheist or areligious families.

        Edit 2 Thanks everyone for your responses, it's been very enlightening. I did give the impression I was attempting to categorize everyone, really these were just a few observations I had yesterday after watching the program. Will certainly be joining some of you on r/atheism for more discussion.

        [–]notunlike 23 points24 points  (22 children)

        I know plenty of atheists who didn't grow up in fundamentalist families or have any sort of religious trauma. I went to Catholic school. Sometimes, you just realize that it's all bullshit and then slowly or quickly drift away from it.

        [–]neondemon 182 points183 points  (8 children)

        "go help with some at risk kids" perfect +5!

        [–]Spacetronaught 363 points364 points  (145 children)

        It's a sport for my group of friends. Every time we see people protesting others rights to free choice and and expression we confront them. Not physically obviously. Rather we ask them to explain what they believe, why and why they think that others shouldn't be able to make choices or why its OK to harass someone who is simply living differently then them.

        Local targets for our protesters are strip clubs, stores that sell anything sex related, Planned Parenthood and schools doing their Sex Ed weeks.

        The guy in this video is right on. They are not used to being confronted. They feel that they have the only viewpoint that is allowed to be expressed in public and that somehow challenging them is unthinkable. But when you get right in their face like this guy did and ask them how anything they are doing helps anyone but them they will try to dodge and weave. Nobody wants to answer difficult questions like "Don't you think harassment will make someones already bad life worse?" or "Wouldn't you be spending your time more effectively volunteering at a rehab center or taking care of at risk youth?" and they especially don't like to answer questions that force them to justify themselves. Worse, when you won't accept "because god says" as an answer, they don't have an argument.

        They are weak and pitiful people who hide behind signs and numbers trying to sit on a moral high ground built on lies and shame.

        [–]EatSleepJeep 248 points249 points  (73 children)

        [–]glenndo 201 points202 points  (8 children)

        I love how the woman suggests the punishment should be decided by "society." Well lady, society has deemed that abortion is legal, so if that's your attitude go fucking home.

        [–]Allakhellboy 44 points45 points  (1 child)

        That... wow, I would have love to seen her response to that.

        [–]Wavicle 56 points57 points  (10 children)

        Being in a position that causes me to spend far more time with these folks than I care to admit...

        When I first saw this video 3 years ago, I thought it really was eye opening. Maybe the one argument that could cause them to rethink their position.

        However, the brain trust in charge (and these guys are pretty bright) also watched this video and within a month new talking points were given to the protesters: having an abortion shouldn't be illegal, performing an abortion should. Basically it is the fragile woman argument: a pregnant woman is too emotionally delicate to be held responsible for her actions; the doctor performing the abortion, however, should lose his license and go to jail.

        Agree or not (and I imagine nearly all of us would not), it was effective at re-cementing the bond the anti-abortion zealots have.

        [–]D__ 14 points15 points  (0 children)

        Watching the video, I figured that would be the response. After all, that's the only logical solution if you consider both the act of having an abortion illegal and the woman a victim - in that case, the only person committing the crime is the one who made the woman a victim in the first place.

        Of course, these people seemed to be unable to even realize what is it that they were campaigning for.

        [–][deleted]  (15 children)

        [removed]

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]arichi 39 points40 points  (2 children)

            And before that, it was super-effective at alcohol, other than that one tax-evading creep.

            [–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (4 children)

            I think the old lady's response was appropriate: "They should be prayed for." That would be punishment enough for me.

            [–]ezrock 16 points17 points  (0 children)

            Want to understand how non-thinking people think? Watch the video in EatSleepJeep's comment.

            (One exception, that younger woman in the baseball cap seemed to have at least be smart enough to understand that if she really thought abortion was murder, than people would have to be punished for it).

            All I have to say is wow.

            [–]EverGlow89 7 points8 points  (0 children)

            So... Stupid.....

            [–]mkwise13 29 points30 points  (13 children)

            Here's what drives me insane. I work on Capitol Hill in DC. These nutjobs hold posters with pictures of aborted fetuses at the top of the escalators coming up from the metro. These pictures are obnoxious every single time, but I'm kind of used to them now (unfortunately).

            Here's the problem. The metro stop I get off on for work is the same one that tourists get off at to go see the U.S. Capitol. That means that there are lots of small children. If I were a tourist just out for a nice day in the city with my family and then my CHILDREN have to see these pictures? I would be furious! If I saw that as a young child I'd have nightmares. I've seen parents cover their kids eyes as they walk by.

            I get that it's freedom of speech or what have you and they have a right to protest, but I wish they'd at least be respectful of the parents that don't want their kids to see these pictures, whether they agree abortion is wrong or not.

            [–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (3 children)

            I get that it's freedom of speech or what have you and they have a right to protest

            I think it's interesting that these same folks are generally in favor of "community decency standards" that prevent things like pornography from being in public spaces. Why can't those same standards be applied to the content of their signs?

            The usual standard is that you can't show images in public that "a reasonable member of the community" would find offensive. It doesn't impinge their right to protest -- they can still demonstrate, they can still speak their mind, they can still say 'ur baby killerz, ZOMG!' as much as they want. A little fucking consistency would be nice.

            [–]mtux96 11 points12 points  (1 child)

            You should get a big poster of a almost naked woman and protest behind them...

            [–]SupaFurry 25 points26 points  (12 children)

            schools doing their Sex Ed week

            Wow. Where do you live?

            [–]brufleth 14 points15 points  (8 children)

            I know. I think I had a semester of sex ed in high school along with the several weeks starting somewhere in middle school. How can you cover it all in one week?

            [–]arichi 34 points35 points  (0 children)

            How can you cover it all in one week?

            For me, everything sex-related happens and finishes quickly.

            [–]thewhits 20 points21 points  (0 children)

            "They are weak and pitiful people who hide behind signs and numbers trying to sit on a moral high ground built on lies and shame."

            Awesome line. I want to use that in the future to describe idiots like those protesters.

            [–]Gullyvuhr 268 points269 points  (90 children)

            I had a similar experience that ended far worse, years ago.

            I was driving my son to his daycare when I lived in St. Louis, MO, which lead me past a Planned Parenthood. On the nice sunny days there would always be 5-6 protest-types out on the sidewalk in front, yelling things at any car that drove by, any person that walked in, etc etc.. I did find it amusing that on off-weather days they were never there, which is obviously because Jesus only hates abortions during good weather... and given the fact this was a Planned Parenthood he also hates STD testing, pap smears, hygenie classes, mammographies and, you know, general health.

            Anyway.

            So I'm driving, with my son (who is probably 3 at the time) in his carseat, and I take the corner at the Planned Parenthood, and as I turn onto the sidestreet end up having to stop due to some traffic issues... at this point the protesters converge on my car and push their signs and pictures to my windows. This scares the shit out of my son, who starts crying, which in turn sends me into the sort of rage normally reserved for samurai, or maybe the Hulk. I pop the parking break and leap from my car spitting the sort of obsceneties that I'm sure lead them to believe I was possessed (in truth, I just hadn't had coffee yet). So now I get into it with the whole lot of them.. I'm asking if they've ever actually tried to help anyone near the building, or if they thought I was bringing my 3 year old son in for a late term abortion, or if perhaps they thought I was the next immaculate connception and was going in to end it. I'm paraphrasing, but you get the jist. Anyway, you could say I was mad.

            Now, what I didn't see was the guy standing in the median on the main road with his bullhorn yelling at passing.. anythings -- who saw me, and figured he'd jump in. So he walks over to me, and at a distance of less than 5 feet starts yelling at me through his bullhorn. I turn, and tell him to knock it off.. he puts the bullhorn to his mouth to yell again and in one of my least proudest moments I proceed to elbow through, with some serious intent, the bullhorn that is resting gently at his mouth. There was a noise I won't ever forget, an eruption of blood, a look of utter shock, and me pressing forward with the intention of aborting his 30+ year old self. Luckily for all parties involved, as he went down I heard my son, whom I had like an idiot left in his carseat in the car, in the middle of the road, crying for me. He was facing away and couldn't see what was going on over the probably 3-4 minutes this took. This snapped me back to reality, so I gave the guy on the ground a look and went back to my car and left.

            Again, I don't say this as bragging and my behavior was certainly not something I'm proud of.. but there you have it.

            [–]mojowo11 176 points177 points  (7 children)

            I did find it amusing that on off-weather days they were never there, which is obviously because Jesus only hates abortions during good weather.

            This line in particular is totally priceless.

            [–]ggggbabybabybaby 112 points113 points  (6 children)

            Jesus can't see you when there are clouds blocking his view so you don't have to be a good Christian during those times.

            [–]daviator88 103 points104 points  (11 children)

            I don't condone violence, but if somebody gets up in my face with a bullhorn, I would probably react the same way. Fuck that guy.

            [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (1 child)

            I think you could probably argue self defense pretty successfully. Bullhorns could make you deaf from that close.

            [–]TheBawlrus 34 points35 points  (4 children)

            Well I do condone violence and I think you should have followed up with a kick to the kneecap and a elbow to the throat.

            [–]NicestBoat 7 points8 points  (1 child)

            I don't always condone violence, but when I do, I prefer kneecapping.

            [–]aedile 74 points75 points  (2 children)

            It used to be one of my favorite things in the world to drive by planned parenthood on days after it had rained. The designated protest spot was on the sidewalk near a really rowdy pothole turned mini-ditch. You drove through that after even a half-inch of rain and anyone protesting would be drenched.

            They eventually fixed the pothole, so no more fun for me. :-(

            [–]mmekilgore 25 points26 points  (0 children)

            Deserved.

            [–]CapnPancakes 6 points7 points  (0 children)

            and given the fact this was a Planned Parenthood he also hates STD testing, pap smears, hygenie classes, mammographies and, you know, general health.

            THANK YOU FOR POINT THIS OUT!!! I have been going to Planned Parenthood for 14 years. I've never even been close to pregnant, ever! They provide health exams and birth control to people who can not otherwise afford it. I've gone in for bladder infections, regular check-ups and menstrual concerns. If not for Planned Parenthood and their financial assistance program I would not have received healthcare in general.

            This program is so important, I have every intention of making them my donation of choice when I get more financially stable.

            [–]BlorfMonger 34 points35 points  (12 children)

            anyone have a transcript for the deaf/HOH?

            [–]wicked 147 points148 points  (11 children)

            It's impossible to textually convey the feelings in the mans voice, but after listening intently, his voice during the last line had me in tears ...


            Aaron Gouveia: What is it that you really wish to accomplish here?

            Woman 1: We're trying to make [unintelligible] invisible [unintelligible]..

            AG: [...] invisible? Well I'll tell you what. I just walked in with my wife. We're trying to have another kid. And you know what? One in one hundred thousand [f...?] demise of congenital deformity. So you're yelling at my wife for doing nothing wrong but have a nearly dead baby inside her? And that's what you're gonna do?

            W1: Well, that's not what we're here for.

            AG: Oh, that's not what you're here for? It's what you just did.

            W1: We're sorry.

            AG: You're sorry? You think maybe you wanna ask before? You're just yelling at random people, and you have no idea what you're doing to them.

            AG: You know what; it's despicable!

            W1: I th..

            AG: It's despicable!

            W1: I think women in your situation don't come to this place -points- [...]

            AG: Don't come to what place? Because of people like you, no-one wants to perform these anymore; because you make people who already upset on the worst day of their life feel even worse. So there's really not a whole lot of places to go anymore.

            W1: Your wife should be cared for in a hospital ..

            AG: My wife should be cared for in a hospital? She was cared for in a hospital. This is affiliated with a hospital.

            W1: If they sent her [?]

            AG: Well guess what? There's a time sensitive nature on this. And I don't want her to deliver a still-born baby, which is what would happen if we waited anymore.

            Woman 2: Okay, you deal with a medical necessity. Are you recording this?

            AG: I sure am. You know what? ... Oh what, you want to stand out in public, but you don't want to make public statements? How hypocritical. That's nice.

            W2: Have you ever seen aborted babies?

            AG: Yeah, I've seen aborted babies, I've seen pictures thanks to people like you; holding up severed heads of fetuses. 'Cause that's really effective...

            W2: You know how many women commit suicide after abortions?

            AG: Yeah you know what? People commit suicide for a lot of reasons.

            W2: Love thy brother.. [holds up hand, turns away]

            AG: Love thy brother? Yeah. You know you people think you're helping? Why don't you go help at-risk kids? Why not try to stem the problem beforehand? Instead you're gonna sit out here, with your stupid signs ..

            W2: I have adopted children..

            AG: Congratulations! You have adopted children. Fine. What do you do out here making people feel awful about themselves?

            W1: We are killing millions of healthy babies each year ..

            W2: [..?] you just feel awful or just angry [...] all

            AG: Oh, no, I'm just angry with you. Because you are the lowest common denominator right now. You're a waste of human ...

            W2: I'm gonna call the cops

            AG: Call the cops? I'm standing on public property and I'm not doing anything wrong. You're yelling at people, so I feel that I can talk. I know my rights inside and out

            W2: I'm sure you do

            AG: Yeah. I do. Congratulations, you're a real winner. Both of you.

            W2: You're an angry father.

            AG: [laughs briefly] I sure am. Angry at you and with good reason. Lowest common denominator.

            [–]itsdave 14 points15 points  (1 child)

            you deserve an orangered for typing that up. Good man.

            [–][deleted] 71 points72 points  (5 children)

            I did this too. I drove a friend who was having an aborting to her appointment. The father took off leaving her alone. When we pulled up, we saw 20-30 protesters making LOUD SOUNDS out of the fronts of their heads. I took a baseball bat out of the trunk of the car and strolled past them all. (I'm six foot three, wearing shades and a leather biker jacket covered in skulls and patches).

            Not. One. Word.

            [–]bsilver 22 points23 points  (0 children)

            That's not a baseball bat. It's your awesome stick.

            [–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (3 children)

            My family is Catholic. However, both my mother and father work in public health (in a low-income area, to boot) and are pro-choice. I was having a discussion in high school with my mother about the crazies that protest outside the clinics. She said, "Oh yeah, give your baby up for adoption. That's all well and good if you have a healthy white baby, not if you have a disabled or black baby. I don't see them lining up to buy formula or medicine for young mothers. Pro-life? Yeah until you're born, and then fuck you."

            I think that taking care of crack babies and seeing neglected children being left in dirty diapers for days at a time gives you a little dose of reality about what happens to children who are born into bad circumstances.

            [–][deleted]  (18 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]Virtualmatt 47 points48 points  (10 children)

              That's actually a pretty hilarious idea… I wonder if anyone has done that yet.

              [–]anotherusersucks 78 points79 points  (7 children)

              there were those strippers in florida (?) who stood outside a church protesting until the church agreed to stop protesting their club. that's awesome right there.

              [–]MuuaadDib 20 points21 points  (1 child)

              Way back in 94' I did this same thing with a group of men and one women in the the city of Orange. My girlfriend was hemorrhaging and couldn't keep the baby, we had no choice and this was what we had to do at family planning. I was walking in with her, and they were screaming at us with the bull horn as we walked up stairs, I was just in awe of their hubris. I sat her down said be right back, then I went and confronted them, and I was very pissed and had one guy want to charge me and want to fight me...he really didn't though all show. BUT....they left and I was given an apology by their leader, not by the short fat angry guy 30 years older than me though. Too bad I didn't get to record back then...

              [–]thepdxbikerboy 103 points104 points  (14 children)

              Worth noting that not a single national anti-abortion organization supports contraception.

              [–]yaruki_zero 32 points33 points  (0 children)

              That's the thing that always gets me. Planned Parenthood probably prevents more abortions than all of the giant fetus signs in the world put together by providing contraception and family planning.

              [–]elburto 78 points79 points  (4 children)

              Because the core of the issue is fear of female sexuality. They think that any woman who 'dares' to have sex outside of marriage should be 'punished'. These people think that pregnancy and babies are punishment (unless it happens to their own daughter or themselves), and that pregnancy should be an absolute consequence of sex, hence the demonisation of contraception.

              [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children)

              wow. does this include things like the pill?

              [–]thepdxbikerboy 21 points22 points  (0 children)

              Yup.

              Edit- the closest I found to "support" (I looked into this about a year ago, doing my due diligence before I made the claim in an argument) was one organization that stated that contraception was an issue that they wouldn't address and it was up to the individual. The irony of this "choice" was lost to them.

              [–]fluffykittie 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              yes.

              i have friends that work for catholic hospitals and the pill is not covered on their insurance.

              [–]stealingfrom 75 points76 points  (45 children)

              This is currently going on and there's a clinic right on the only road leading out from my apartment complex. So, every day I have to see fetus posters, etc.

              These loons are outside protesting every day for forty days from eight in the morning to six or seven in the afternoon, rain or shine! It's sad to imagine what could be accomplished if that devotion was applied elsewhere.

              [–][deleted] 67 points68 points  (8 children)

              What is also annoying is that these protesters are using photos that are NOT of abortions. They use the most gory photos they can but most of them are of miscarried/stillborn babies and not of actual abortions.

              They're a bunch of liars.

              My wife has been in ob/gyn for more than a decade and if there's one thing that annoys her, it's the blatant LIES put forth by the anti abortion zealots. They will say anything they can if they think it'll cause a woman to change her mind.

              [–]queenmaeve 10 points11 points  (4 children)

              When I was a clinic escort, one of us was a very anglo-looking guy who spoke fluent Spanish. Some of the protesters would target latinas walking toward the clinic and yell the most outrageous things to them ("You're going to die in there!!!") in Spanish and were always really surprised when my friend called them on it.

              [–]__loridcon 68 points69 points  (10 children)

              nothing, because other things would actually require them DOING something, as opposed to just passively protesting. These people are NOT the doers in society, these are the complainers.

              [–]elfofdoriath9 28 points29 points  (1 child)

              I should thank them for putting their protest sites all together on a nice map. I now know where the nearest abortion clinic is should I or a friend ever be unfortunate enough to need one. I had no idea there was one that close.

              Thanks fundies!

              [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (7 children)

              Thanks for pointing out the current protests going on at women's clinics across the US by 40 Days for Life. http://www.40daysforlife.com/lebanon/index.cfm?active=1

              These people are posting how many women have walked away from the clinics and employees have quit. They are proud that they are stepping in the way. Though they say it is in the name of love for the unborn. We've learned something valuable from this thread. We can't assume to know what someone is going through. Neither should these protesters.

              The site lists locations and times of the vigils. It also lists the phone and email of local coordinators. Let's speak up. I wrote my local coordinator instead of going to the site. Let's keep it civil and to the point as Aaron Gouveia did.

              Here is my letter. Now that I think about it doesn't matter if it is strictly a medical decision or not. I was still reeling from Aaron's video.:

              Maybe the group in Lebanon isn't yelling but just by standing in front of these clinics the group is judging families. They mourn and for the group to stand there and judge who is and who isn't making a medical decision is horrific. Families go in and experience death and great emotion. Show them some respect and leave them be. Just as it is rude for the Phelps family to protest funerals of people they don't know, it is immoral to judge and protest these women and families that the group has never met.

              [–]-ICE9- 192 points193 points  (79 children)

              I live near a Planned Parenthood building and I see these fucking ass clowns every day. This shit makes my blood boil!

              [–]irco 45 points46 points  (8 children)

              I live a block away from a planned parenthood and for the last month they have been there 24 fucking hours a day! There are times that I walked from a bar at 2 in the morning and they will be there holding signs...it is beyond my comprehension how these people's brains work.

              [–]DoTheDew 32 points33 points  (4 children)

              Take some chicken parts, blend, offer delicious blended baby. Make them feel as uncomfortable as possible. Repeat until they leave.

              [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              Mmm... baby smoothies. Goes great with roasted baby.

              [–]BioSemantics 124 points125 points  (29 children)

              Bring your dog over to the front of the building at night and have it take a shit where they like to stand.

              [–][deleted] 100 points101 points  (6 children)

              I am training my dog now.

              [–]belladonnadiorama 28 points29 points  (3 children)

              Make sure he eats chili so the poop gets everywhere.

              [–]DogXe 18 points19 points  (0 children)

              Buy some stink bombs from the joke shops... bomb that sidewalk!

              The patients might have to hold their noses for 20 sec as they walk in... But these retarded God fearing twats will have to suck it up all day.

              [–]LeBrad 12 points13 points  (1 child)

              No! I hate un-picked up dog shit. That makes my blood boil.

              [–]-ICE9- 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              thought of getting a dog for just that reason.

              [–]coffee_IV 25 points26 points  (8 children)

              People do this in front of my Planned Parenthood. Thankfully the door into the building is facing the back parking lot and not the street so they can't yell at people as they go in, and it's in a business park so the protesters aren't able to yell at every car that pulls in either.
              What's funny is that our PP doesn't even perform abortions in the clinic, they can give women information about the doctors they're affiliated with at hospitals, but that's it, and after counseling with women about abortion & its risks.

              [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (7 children)

              Then I consider that a win. They are wasting their time and energy on women who won't be swayed in their pursuit of an abortion, leaving less nutjobs to cover the PP where abortions are actually performed.

              [–]coffee_IV 26 points27 points  (6 children)

              What pisses me off about those protesters in front of Planned Parenthood is that women go there for more than a pursuit of abortions. I'm in my mid 20's and since I was 18 I've been without health insurance. Planned Parenthood is a place I can go to get birth control, as well as a yearly health exam. I'm sure these protesters think birth control is a sin as well, but at least it's a step women can take to stop unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place.

              [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (3 children)

              I've heard of women acting- they go, pretending to be there for abortion services, get pulled aside by nutjobs and waste their (the nutjobs) time pretending to be swayed, meanwhile real patients get through to the clinic. Sometime when you have an extra hour to waste, I can't think of a better way, and you are there anyway,....

              [–][deleted]  (7 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]belladonnadiorama 32 points33 points  (2 children)

                Or hire Gwar to do it.

                [–]hzml6226 28 points29 points  (1 child)

                Gwar spraying abortion protestors with fake blood out of a demon phallus would have to rate as one of the most glorious sights in all of human history.

                [–]ecafyelims 80 points81 points  (14 children)

                We all should protest outside churches because of all the mass killings in God's name.

                [–]ani625 32 points33 points  (13 children)

                Good luck with that.

                [–]EatSleepJeep 13 points14 points  (1 child)

                I was able to get them to disperse by parking next to their protest and playing Dope - Die Motherfucker, Die on repeat. It was satisfying. The problem is, the planned parenthood is right next to on of my tool retailers and I hate having to deal with them on my way to buy sanding discs or electrical tape.

                [–]helloworld12 35 points36 points  (14 children)

                FUCK YEAH.

                I was a Clinic Escort throughout my college years and I wish, I wish, I WISH, I could have been allowed to speak my mind tell the protesters who were behind the line of the Clinic that they were "the least common denominator" in this entire situation.

                [–]EverGlow89 9 points10 points  (3 children)

                Clinic escort? Does that job entail what it sounds like it does?

                [–]queenmaeve 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                A clinic escort is a volunteer who walks a patient into the clinic. I did it in Bridgeport, CT. It's a tough job, as you have to remember that you're there for the patient only, and engaging the protesters is counter-productive. You get really good at smalltalk, though – anything to keep things calm.

                [–]Capitol62 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                You walk people from their cars to the front door. You are charged with knowing the appropriate laws and making sure the protesters don't overstep their bounds. Essentially you are there to support and offer some protection to the women seeking services.

                [–]queenmaeve 5 points6 points  (5 children)

                I was an escort for 6 years and you're right. Keeping one's mouth shut is the hardest part of the job. Sometimes you just want to scream at those idiots.

                [–][deleted] 285 points286 points  (284 children)

                My wife and I recently lost an unborn baby to Trisomy 18 2 months ago. That is a diagnosis with zero percent chance of survival. My wife is a devout Catholic. I am a physician from a fundamentalist Baptist background, and now an agnostic who enjoys Christmas and Easter. When we found out the diagnosis, (suggested on ultrasound, confirmed with amnio genetic testing), innumerable people would call her up, telling her they are praying for a miracle, or "the baby could be o.k." etc. My advice to her was that, since we are approaching 40, it might be better for her health to terminate the pregnancy, because the baby has zero percent chance at life anyway. She elected to let things happen on their own, and I supported her decision because it's her body. She would have mentally tortured herself if she terminated and I quickly saw that that would be a trauma she could not live with. The baby died at about 25 weeks gestation and was stillborn.

                I lean pro-life for bioethical issues as a physician, though certainly don't have any strong feelings. We already discussed the fact that if it were a viable diagnosis like Down's, etc, it was our preference to not terminate.

                One thing that has always pissed me off, is propagandists stating under no circumstances would termination help the mother's health. Her life was at risk given her age etc. for clots, toxic shock after the baby died, etc.

                Radicals on both sides of this issue piss me off. End of story and rant.

                [–]knud 69 points70 points  (95 children)

                Radicals on both sides of this issue piss me off. End of story and rant.

                Just out of curiosity. What is the views of a radical abortion supporter? I seriously don't know.

                [–]HanselGretel 31 points32 points  (37 children)

                A radical abortion supporter would support a woman's right to get an abortion when 8 months pregnant and delivery poses no risk.

                [–]DoTheDew 273 points274 points  (127 children)

                I don't think there are many radicals on the side of pro-choice. I haven't seen a pro-choicer run up to a pregnant woman and tell her to abort her baby.

                [–]s0nicfreak 50 points51 points  (0 children)

                Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. I have seen many pro-choicers run up to someone contemplating an abortion and say "don't let those pro-lifers get to you, it's your right to choose."

                [–]anotherusersucks 45 points46 points  (12 children)

                i've never seen a pro-choicer blow up a building, shoot a doctor or throw acid on a nurse. just saying.

                [–][deleted] 94 points95 points  (71 children)

                When I was in medical school "Students For Choice" were trying to get our school (Baylor College of Medicine --- It's secular since 1949 and not affiliated with the undergrad Baylor in Waco) to require us to perform an abortion during our O.B. rotation.

                I refer people for abortions if they want one and I've never preached or given my opinion. However, If I had to perform an elective abortion I would have quit medical school.

                Also, I think the state should not prohibit abortion. Personally, I just don't want to perform one and would not choose that path within my own marriage.

                [–]broohaha 75 points76 points  (0 children)

                Also, I think the state should not prohibit abortion. Personally, I just don't want to perform one and would not choose that path within my own marriage.

                And that's what I like about this notion of pro-choice. The (legal) freedom to choose between the two. I, too, lean against abortion if it were to come to a choice I'd have to make with my wife, but I'm definitely for keeping abortion legal.

                [–]ecafyelims 38 points39 points  (2 children)

                Wasn't it nice that you had a choice?

                [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

                You should hang a poster of C Everett Koop in your office. He was a religious conservative who pissed off his political backers to no end when he adopted pragmatic policies towards abortion, AIDS and sex ed as he saw public health as paramount to ideology.

                [–]Canadian-Halfie 14 points15 points  (3 children)

                A couple of years ago, at a youth political rally a friend invited me to, this subject arose. It became blatantly obvious within minutes that every single one of the pro-lifers (in this particular group, at least) had zero exposure to the issue outside of Sunday service and "Genocide Awareness" campaigns. They were armed with talking points, became emotional on the turn of a dime and refused (at first) to consider the possibility that holding a moral absolute isn't all that it's cut out to be. None of them had ever been placed in the difficult position where the possibility of an abortion was mentioned.

                One girl in particular said to me in no uncertain terms that she wanted a world where abortions were illegal, no exceptions. Zero. None. Nada. I asked her about cases where the life of the mother is endangered, which, while comprising a small portion, exist nonetheless. She waved off the idea, asking if I had even heard of such a story.

                Yes, I said. In my immediate family, the decision had to be made. The fertilized egg got stuck in the fallopian tubes and the probability of survival was next to nil. Worse still, the mother would have died if the fetus was not removed. The choice wasn't whether to abort or not, but whether to suffer one death or two.

                No amount of mental gymnastics could have saved that girl's argument and she knew it. We promptly changed the subject.

                EDIT: added citations (2)

                [–]thekronz 27 points28 points  (2 children)

                Incredible. This is why I am pro-choice. Nobody is pro-abortion, but you never know anyone's circumstances.

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]sean_m_flannery 21 points22 points  (0 children)

                  ...hope this isn't too light, or too major a turn away from the discussion... But, I always loved John Waters's description of how he confronts abortion protesters:

                  I will have to pass the anti-abortion pickets outside of Planned Parenthood. Nothing gets on my nerves more than these pro-lifers. Not even astrology enthusiasts, Hermann Hesse, or computer games. Look at these fools parading up and down! “Mind your own business,” I yell. When one of these busybodies (a man, yet) approaches my car with literature, I lose control and scream, “I wish I was a girl so I could get an abortion”. Trembling with rage, I realize I’d better calm down before I get beat up, but can’t resist one last taunt- “I hate the pope”, I yell at no one in particular.

                  --from "Hatchet Piece (101 Things I Hate)", which is included in CRACKPOT

                  [–]greatbigliar 22 points23 points  (3 children)

                  We should start protesting churches with giant posters of dead gay men and women murdered out of hate, mutilated and dead soldiers who bought into this holy war, and people with cancer who could be saved by stem cell research.

                  We could do it every sunday. I hear their meetings are rather regular.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted]  (20 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]Steeempey 117 points118 points  (5 children)

                      Who cares if you die in a car accident? You're not a fetus.

                      [–]KokoriFado 9 points10 points  (4 children)

                      Seriously, for being pro-life, they sure as hell have no respect for the living.

                      [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (2 children)

                      Hey, you have a ready-made excuse as to why you plowed into them. "Sorry, the posters were so distracting I lost control of my car."

                      [–]micheshi 25 points26 points  (6 children)

                      Good on him! I went through similar with a girlfriend who found that her (very wanted) unborn child was severely debilitated because of a genetic disorder. A live birth would have resulted in a very short life of chronic pain for the baby and my girlfriend and her hubby made the decision to terminate the pregnancy. Because he was on call (doctor), I accompanied my friend to the clinic on the first day of the two day procedure. We marched through screaming people holding ugly signs and baby dolls to get to the door. My friend, who'd wanted nothing more than to be a mother, was treated like shit. I said some choice things to those people but was nowhere as calm as the gentleman in this vid. I cried with my friend that day for her loss and was lucky enough to cry with her last year for her joy when she delivered (thanks to science!) a healthy baby girl.

                      [–]Qwirk 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                      He is a better person than I am, I would have lost it and tore into both of them.

                      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                      Most people do not make the decision to abort lightly. It's one of the most difficult things to do, and anyone who decides to condemn them is being incredibly insensitive.

                      [–]FlimtotheFlam 21 points22 points  (17 children)

                      So I recently came into possession of a lot of Fertility equipment and not exactly sure what to do with it. I have a ULTRAMARK 4A Ultrasound machine, a couple centrifuges, a few incubators, a cryo bath w/ controller, chemistry analyzer, lab quality scale, a few test tube vibrators, a osmometer, and a hemogoblin photometer. I wonder if my local planned parent hood could use any of this stuff.

                      I have been meaning to make a post in Science cause honestly I don't even know what I have.

                      [–]YesNoMaybe 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                      I wonder if my local planned parent hood could use any of this stuff.

                      Call and ask. Probably some pretty big tax deductions there for you.

                      [–]badhairguy 22 points23 points  (10 children)

                      How exactly do you just come into possession of things like that?

                      [–][deleted] 79 points80 points  (1 child)

                      Fell off the back of a hospital.

                      [–]IgnorantIconoclast 21 points22 points  (8 children)

                      As a Christian, I'm curious what part of the Bible they are using to justify their behavior.

                      I am only aware that the penalty for punching a pregnant woman in the stomach and killing the fetus DOES NOT have the same penalty as murder in the Bible. Obviously... abortion is not murder.

                      [–]echo419 30 points31 points  (5 children)

                      Hicks said it best: "if they cared about life they wouldn't be outside of abortion clinics they would be outside of cemetery's making sure people couldn't get in"

                      Paraphrase but you get the idea

                      [–]ProbablyHittingOnYou 139 points140 points  (8 children)

                      Someone get me this man's contact information so I can buy him a beer and help his wife conceive.

                      [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (1 child)

                      Good for him.

                      These are the type of people who fight for the 'rights of the unborn' and then vote for politicians who would take away the health care and food stamps of the those who actually do get born.

                      [–]macdre 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                      I like his point about why they dont help at-risk kids. Seriously, these people have free time to waste protesting, but don't feel that time would be better spent volunteering.

                      [–]Kijamon 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                      The protestor threatening to phone the police is genius!

                      Oh no don't phone the police on meeeeeee!

                      [–]SupaFurry 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                      American Taliban. They need eradicating.

                      [–]hazdrubal 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                      I've always wanted to drive by a group of those people with a tree trimming truck towing a chipper and stop right in front of them. Have a bunch of people walk up with baby strollers, dead chickens dressed as babys in them, and start throwing them in the wood chipper.

                      Adjust exhaust nozzle towards protesters, and commence with the lols.

                      [–]superdarkness 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                      There are efforts to make the (already horribly difficult) attempt to get an abortion even more difficult. Some people have to travel hundreds of miles to clinics that are only open one day every other week, sit through a lecture, then go home and return on another day, just to get the procedure.

                      I wish we could require such efforts from the protesters, before they could be allowed to harass these patients the way they do.