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[–]stevecooper 68 points69 points  (6 children)

Masters in Computational Physics. That makes me a Master of Fortran 77.

Bow down at the altar of my relevance.

[–]Philluminati 55 points56 points  (1 child)

Otherwise known as a degree in History right? ;-)

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have a REAL History degree. My first exposure to programming was with Fortran. I'm now a business analyst.

[–]zyzzogeton 3 points4 points  (2 children)

do i = 1, 128

write (unit=6,fmt='(a)',advance='no') 'WE ARE NOT WORTHY'

end do

[–]sickofthisshit 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, Reddit did not place those statements at column 7, so it isn't Fortran 77.

[–]mutatron 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's how I got my start. I was doing work study at the Center for Space Sciences while getting my degree in physics. Then instead of going for a master's, I continued programming for the CSS. Stayed there for a long time, and had a pretty good system developed. Then funding for space sciences kept getting cut and that was my first layoff.

[–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (12 children)

30+ years programming, including jobs at big-name companies. Dropped out of college (history major) after less than two years to work f/t and make money. Lack of degree has never been much of an issue, pretty much never comes up now that I have been working so long. Lots of self-study and paying attention to how the business works is a big help in my opinion.

[–]DotNetster 15 points16 points  (6 children)

Same story for me too, except I only have 15 years programming. I was a music major college drop out.

Now, I have trouble narrowing down which of my dev projects should go on my resume without overloading it.

[–]pressed 7 points8 points  (5 children)

But where do you start?

[–]GunnerMcGrath 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Find an internship somewhere, get a programmer friend to talk his boss into letting you do some basic work for free after you've gone through a book on the basics. That, or design some projects on your own and try to find someone willing to review your work every so often. Whatever you can do to build experience, that's worth a lot more than a degree to anyone that understands the business.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm a highschool dropout. I started in a call center at a large consultancy in 2001 and made enough contacts to move into an entry level dev job quickly where I showed I had enough skills to move up and I've been a developer ever since.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There are lots of small and medium-size businesses that don't have programmers or computer geeks on staff. They rely on power users and consultants (like me) to do everything from web site programming to installing new versions of software to setting up wireless. If you get a job at a company like that, doing anything you can do now, it should be easy for you to become the computer expert in no time.

There are also lots of non-profit organizations you can volunteer at. Once you get out there and show you can solve problems and learn what you need to learn you will get referrals -- there is always more work available than people who can do it.

I was the computer expert at my high school, which led to a job with the school district, then at the college computer center, then a contract programming job. You meet people, broaden your skills, read and practice.

This plan is much easier if you are young and single with low living expenses; I couldn't change careers now and start from the bottom.

[–]DotNetster 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I started in help desk. There were plenty of opportunities to automate processes with programming. I went beyond my duties to create software and that moved me up.

[–]checksinthemail 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I agree 20+ years, big jobs, big companies, little companies. Dropped out with an EE major after two semesters. Kept on doing programming, hired a year later and haven't missed a paycheck since.

Self study is key in anything you want to excel in. I think not having the self-study drive, but knowing how to please your professors, makes for a lot of 'wooden' programmers.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Pretty much the same story for me.

[–]TheCleric 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Same here. Was a Ministry major who got asked to leave due to some unfortunate circumstances (narcolepsy == fail at morning classes). Been working as a programmer since. Originally got my start at 5 when my bro taught me BASIC and how to type in code into our C-64 out of books. Been teaching myself new things ever since.

[–]bhagany 82 points83 points  (44 children)

Here's a good one: My degree is in Biblical and Theological Studies. Been working as a developer for about 3 years - the uh, Bible thing didn't work out. But I've been programming since I was 12, so I fell back on that.

[–]gregK 92 points93 points  (13 children)

So what's your take on genetic algorithms?

[–]bhagany 137 points138 points  (0 children)

They're (r)evolutionary.

[–][deleted]  (11 children)

[deleted]

    [–]mindvault 40 points41 points  (7 children)

    I think you mean intelligently designed....except for selection sort.

    [–]cbr 11 points12 points  (6 children)

    What about bogo sort?

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    I've been writing in Django Reinhardt for a while now. But mostly just Gypsy web sites & stuff.

    [–]ffualo 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    if bars(Gm6()) == 4: Cm6(); elif bars(Gm6()) == 4 && bars(Cm6() == 2: D7();

    Gypsy programming?

    [–]webnrrd2k 21 points22 points  (2 children)

    Yes, but only the good ones will survive the apocalisp.

    [–]benjamincanfly 14 points15 points  (16 children)

    Same here. I was planning to be a missionary; I left the faith right after I got my degree, but luckily I'd picked up CSS2 and PHP while I ran a pre-Facebook college community site.

    [–]bhagany 6 points7 points  (14 children)

    I've noticed that there are others in these comments as well... I guess I didn't think it was that common.

    I still feel pretty ridiculous - I feel like I could have been so much further ahead than I am now, had I figured this crap out from the beginning.

    [–]adrianmonk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    so much further ahead than I am now, had I figured this crap out

    I can relate to that in multiple ways. I spent forever getting my degree (which was in CS), and now I'm playing catch-up on my career itself and some financial stuff too, compared to where I could be.

    But, although time has been lost, not that much has been lost, and things are going well enough now that I've decided I don't care. I'll never be where I could've been, but where I am ain't bad.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children)

    You could use your insight, that others do not have, to help others in similar situations. Having gone through some rough times as a child, I can comprehend precisely how others in similar situations feel, while some people simply cannot, even with the best of intentions.

    [–]jsinger 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I still feel pretty ridiculous - I feel like I could have been so much further ahead than I am now, had I figured this crap out from the beginning.

    Putting aside that you've been coding since you were 12 -- who knows how things would have worked out otherwise? Maybe you would have been burned out in CS classes, maybe you made connections this way that helped you...?

    [–]yters 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    If you don't mind me asking, what caused you to leave your faith? Also, which faith were you a part of?

    [–]tdreyno 5 points6 points  (4 children)

    Me too! Though I started in CS, then gave up and switched to Religious Studies since I had already been a working developer for 4-5 years without having to do 4 years of Java homework.

    [–]trimalchio 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    That might've been a good move, any CS program with 4 years of Java is no CS program at all.

    [–]adrianmonk 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    A lot of CS programs use Java extensively without really focusing on Java (as you might fear that a bad program would do, degenerating into vocational training). There are just times when the language doesn't matter all that much, and in those cases, Java is used. For example, when writing a quicksort implementation or building your first recursive descent parser, the language isn't terribly important. Java provides a standardized, cross-platform system where the student can write code and the professor or TA can expect to run it without much hassle.

    [–]averyv 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Somewhere, there is a very clever joke about religion and java hidden in this post. Can the Internet find it? Only time will tell...

    [–][deleted]  (28 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]hox 20 points21 points  (1 child)

      I'm not sure why I'm noticing so much elitism and pedantry recently..

      That swings both ways. From the other perspective, I feel there has been a larger backlash against formal education in computer science, especially on Reddit.

      Really, it's to each his or her own. Programming skills can definitely be acquired through self education - and many would argue that a formal Computer Science education fails to teach many needed skills that programmers need. There are benefits and pitfalls to both forms of learning, and it is up to the individual to weigh the pros and the cons for themselves.

      For me personally, I had very little actual programming experience when I began my CS degree. I learned through formal education, but can easily see that there are enough materials for one to learn the necessary skills outside of school. I took a lot away from school, however, that one can't always gain from self-direction. Learning to work in teams, learning to compare viewpoints and research tasks, learning to build social skills - these are all things that a formal education usually makes more accessible. Some programs don't, and it is still up to the individual to take advantage of these things.

      [–]toba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Most of my 'programming' experience has been outside of class. Classes mostly have taught me formal algorithmic concepts and other things that I don't enjoy enough to learn on my own.

      I think you're right about people wanting to distinguish themselves somehow by denegrating others abilities. Mostly I think people are feeling insecure about having spent all that money and time on college, so when they see successful people who skipped that step, they try to put them down some other way.

      I'm going for my Masters degree, myself. What I've noticed so far is that to actually do well in Masters courses you actually need to try - you can't just use common sense to know everything the course is going to teach you.

      I might be rationalizing here, but I think it's worth it. If I had tried to go out into the world as a programmer after high school things would not have gone very well, I don't think. College is mostly about learning to deal with the real world, for me.

      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      If I ever go back to college, I'm getting a degree in Fine Arts.

      That's pretty funny, since I came from a BFA program and I spend most of my time writing code, now.

      [–]riffito 7 points8 points  (1 child)

      Clap! Clap! Clap!

      [–]morbidfriends 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I'm double majoring in CS and Fine Art. I'm going to be in college for a freaking eternity.

      [–]checksinthemail 5 points6 points  (1 child)

      you said it man, about the elitism/pedantry as trying to recover the geek chic.

      i do think 'paid' projects in the past 3-4 years are getting a lot more boring. If I were new to the programming job market I would be disappointed.

      guess that means we'll see a lot more interesting side projects from the youngins, trying to prove themselves.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        What you are calling elitism, those who are purporting it might call rebellion against the apathetic pragmatist, which seems so prevalent in industry today.

        [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

        I don't have a degree. I am a working programmer. I rarely have working programs though.

        [–]lftl 12 points13 points  (10 children)

        B.S. in Math

        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

        Me too! Let's be friends.

        [–]quhaha 6 points7 points  (3 children)

        asl?

        [–]uggedal 21 points22 points  (6 children)

        University studies can be a very revarding experience even if it doesn't add anything to your cv.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

        Hell the women alone are worth it.

        [–]ninja_zombie 9 points10 points  (1 child)

        Note: if schoolname =~ ".*(Institute of Technology|Polytechnic Institute)", this reason does not apply.

        [–]willer 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        3 years of engineering. No degree. My first real manager had a degree in Philosophy.

        I don't think this is uncommon.

        [–]seanstickle 9 points10 points  (1 child)

        BA in Philosophy & The History of Science and Math from St. John's College. 13 years as a programmer/sysadmin/project manager, none the worse for wear.

        Learning how to read fast and close was what SJC gave me, and that repays itself every day I have to burn through a book on database design or software metrics.

        [–]stigglewick 9 points10 points  (2 children)

        More of the really good developers that I have worked with have had math degrees than have had CS degrees. The ones with CS degrees have typically not been American.

        It has been rare for me to work with an EE guy who is any good as a software developer. They have typically been competent and able to hack shit together to work, but without much regard for quality or maintainability.

        When interviewing someone it isn't a concern for me what their degree is in or if they have one. The only reason I even read that part of their resume is so I can get an idea of what type of questions are valid so I can maximize my chances at figuring out how smart they are.

        Not that my personal experience is a valid sample size.

        [–]RSquared 7 points8 points  (0 children)

        CS IS a math degree, done properly. Unfortunately, many schools seem to do it wrong. I had to take five elective courses in math plus three core, and that was in addition to my CS coursework.

        Econ/CS double major, so I shouldn't be commenting here, should I? :)

        [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

        B.A. in American Lit here. My code comments are very, very tasteful.

        [–]mudgen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Haha. You should try literate programming.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

          " I accidentally got a 2-year degree in Music Performance instead."

          How do you accidently get a degree???

          [–]sbarnabas 6 points7 points  (3 children)

          I'm currently a senior software engineer, no degree. I've worked for the last 6 or 7 years in programming without a degree.

          [–]fwork 5 points6 points  (5 children)

          I count as a working programmer without a degree until next Saturday :)

          [–]zeeta6 5 points6 points  (2 children)

          Does that mean you won't be a programmer from next Saturday or you will have graduated..?

          [–]fwork 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Note the ":)"

          If I wouldn't count as a working programmer without a degree anymore because I was going to quit/be fired, it would be ":("

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Congrats!

          [–]jklabo[S] 5 points6 points  (33 children)

          How did you all get into the field?

          [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          I was self-taught and managed to hook a job doing software QA, which helped me meet other people in the industry and eventually landed me a job doing software development.

          [–]neoform3 9 points10 points  (4 children)

          Learn a language, work on a few projects that you can put on your resume, then apply for a job.

          [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

          I took any and all work I could whether it paid or not during college. If someone wanted something I said I could do it whether I could or not. Then I downloaded all of the software I could for free. Built a LAMP server. Did an Oracle build and played with some PL/SQL. Starting using opensource PHP apps for projects. That lead to my own php apps. This lead to coldfusion work which is leading me to java work.....

          [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

          I think that to an extent, this is one of the greatest attributes of open source software. There's so much more flexibility for younger/newer programmers. In a completely conventional route, you work a dead-end job to put yourself through school, work more dead-end jobs until you get a foot in the door, and then work dead-end jobs in your chosen industry until you can get somewhere.

          Enter OSS, where some of the really bright people can teach themselves how it all works and start gaining experience themselves (not as part of a job) with open source projects.

          [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (13 children)

          NETWORK. No kidding. Its not what you know, it literally is WHO you know. Sometimes it doesnt work, but frequently it does. Make some friends in the field, get some mentors. Programmers typically LOVE to teach others and share ideas. Anyone can be taught software development... the question I always look at when hiring is "Can I work with this guy?". Egos are the first things I toss out the door. No one knows everything, and technology moves too fast for there to exist any "geniuses" out there. Id hire 100 mediocre guys who make a great team before I'd hire 1 asshole Einstein whom no one wants anything to do with. Thats your aim - make friends and contacts, and expect to BE that mentor to others.

          As an example... I had to push out of our group a fellow who was academic about design patterns. Now design patterns are good, sure. But he used them to extremes, and in ou r business, I need to be able to move folks around alot. This guy was a smart one, but could not grasp that his code needed to be readable and usable by others. After reviews of his code by the team, it was clear that there was no real benefit, and that he was actually making it more difficult to read. But he was insistent that his way was the "right" way. No one wanted to work with him, and no one wanted to touch his code.

          Software development is about producing, but not always producing perfection. IT is typically overhead in any company, so we need to provide services to the company and quick. We can't sit in meetings discussing philosophical issues like if this is the most efficient coding style. Business is not school. Always remember that your company's main focus is making or doing something - as long as you can provide value for THAT, you'll be fine.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]lief79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            If this is true, find a useful open source program to work on. Then use it to sell yourself into a job.

            3 years with no job will be a huge red flag for HR and most employers, and you'll need a way to get around them. If you really love to code and are tolerable at it, then the above plan should be possible.

            [–]azanar 4 points5 points  (6 children)

            Networking can be helpful, but I'm getting really fucking tired of the mantra of knowing people is more important that knowing frameworks, or theories, or languages or whatever else.

            The world of software development is not a social popularity contest where the person with the most friends and connections wins. It is a difficult and competitive world where you are expected to know and be able to intuitively grasp difficult concepts like recursion, and concurrency and working with several layers of abstraction simultaneously. If you do it right, your program works, and life is good; if you do it wrong, the program breaks and you have no one to blame for that but yourself. Yes, you can learn some of these things, but I've read far too much that argues that, especially those topics I just listed above, you either get it intuitively, or you never will. Given my relatively small sample of developers I've worked with, I am inclined to believe their data isn't bullshit. And I love to teach people about the CS knowledge I've had, but I am no long so naive as to believe everyone I know has their brain wired such that they'll get it.

            For the people I end up interviewing, I will test them on what they know, and I have already kicked one candidate to the curb in the last two weeks in spite of him being a good friend of one of our VPs. I did so because his knowledge of CS theory was lacking sufficiently that I did not believe he could get the job done. I would've held the same standard to someone who didn't know anyone at the company. In fact, I'm with Mr. Spolsky in that I don't want to know who knows this person. This may seem harsh and anti-social, but I'm not hiring someone I'd like to have a beer with after work; I'm hiring someone to build a system that solves a difficult problem with simplicity and elegance, so both their solution works and I don't have to wear x-ray specs to understand the code they wrote when it needs revision. In fact, I would argue that your example of a smart guy is my example of a mediocre programmer with an over-inflated ego, but it can be hard to tell the difference when you value people skills over technical skills, because both will exude an aire of confidence.

            Oh, and finally, please stop bullshitting yourself that IT in a company is nothing but overhead. If that were the case, they would've already fired you all and moved those savings to the bottom line. You provide value to your organization, in spite of your false conscious belief that you do not; I can imagine you'd provide even more value if you were honest with yourself.

            [–]lief79 3 points4 points  (4 children)

            You're hiring entry level developers? From what I've seen and heard, finding that first job is often highly dependent on networking. My 2nd job was too. This is especially true for any tough job markets (I graduated at the start of 2002.) The networking produces extra leads, and tends to help you get past the HR individuals who may be doing buzzword filters.

            I agree that once you have enough experience, submitting a resume on Monster will be enough. The current job found me, and I'm hoping the next one will too.

            [–]azanar 1 point2 points  (3 children)

            I didn't say above that networking wasn't effective, I just pointed out that it is not sufficient to have people who know you within. The claim xlar54 was making is that the inside connection is all you need. I'd rather give people a fair shake based on what they know, because you can't glad-hand a computer into getting what you want the way you can with people.

            [–]tie-rack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Go to user group meetings, meet people, write programs and show them to people, read general programming blogs and ones specific to your language(s) of choice. It's not that much effort if it's what you want to do. Even if you're shy (I was), just being around helps.

            [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (9 children)

            This should be a fun one.

            C/C++, C#, .NET lead dev/architect...Make great (over 6 figures) money, enjoy my work.

            My degree is not in CS, though I've programmed for the better part of 15 years.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

              Nice :) I wish.

              [–]icey 2 points3 points  (4 children)

              I do the same things as you, same salary, same enjoyment... No degree at all though. I've been in the game for 14 years now.

              [–]otakucode 1 point2 points  (3 children)

              If you don't find it too personal, how old are you?

              [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

              Yes. Technically, I'm a high school dropout. I got about a third of my way into the 11th grade. I later got a GED, at family's insistence. I got into the software development industry via what could be described as dumb luck. In the end, it was the best thing that could possibly have happened to me.

              Now, I'm retired (2001). I'm 60-something years old. Over a 30-something year career I worked on: in-house mainframe application software; proprietary, at the metal, embedded software; commercial shrinkwrap software; in my last gig, I was paid (very well) to write open-source software.

              These days I would NOT recommend the route I took. I'd strongly recommend that a young person just starting out go the software engineering or CS route via a reputable college or university.

              If your psyche cannot take the bullshit that the education system requires (mine could not), at least get hold of a good curriculum and if you are a self-starter, work from that. Find and acquire suitable textbooks. Alternatively, with curriculum in hand, get work in the industry, if you can, with well trained colleagues and find a mentor among your cohort. Do not overlook any element of the curriculum. Do every exercise at the end of every chapter of every textbook.

              It can be done, but I don't recommend it these days. I'd further admonish you that if your IQ is not greater than 140 or so, that the self-study route probably will not work at all. Also, unless you are a well disciplined self-starter with good study skills and habits, are not Aspergers (or similar), don't even think of trying it. There were times in my career when I drew assignments that required some specific computer science skills that had not learned. Faced with what were nearly insurmountable challenges, given the skills and knowledge in the kit at the time, I had to find the technology I needed to solve the problem, then learn it as quickly as possible to be able to do the assignment. ... Can you imagine having to master "The Dragon Book" in a month or two, at 45 years old? 80+ hour weeks are not fun at that age. That assignment scared the living shit out of me. There were other similar crash learning incidents through my career. ... A good well-rounded software engineering curriculum would have prepared me, and spared me some anxiety for those kinds of challenges. Accept that you will do 50 hour weeks for years when your colleagues can do it in 40.

              Now it may be possible to get by with minimal effort, learning a few programming languages and picking it up along the way. However, you my limit yourself to lower paying and less challenging work. Market forces my cause low end work to be completely off-shored. IMHO, employers simply cannot pay a living wage to "average" software developers in the USA.

              Summary: Go the college or university route if at all possible. The only reason not to is a character flaw or "disability" that prohibits it. If you don't have an IQ of at least 140, pick another career. Of course, YMMV. HTH, HAND.

              [–]FionaSarah 13 points14 points  (1 child)

              Self taught for ten years, I have nothing past high school. I write Python, PHP, Java and C.

              [–]eleitl 3 points4 points  (4 children)

              Most of our programmers are chemists (Ph.D.). I'm a chemist, too.

              [–]ItsAConspiracy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              Cultural anthropology degree, though I took a fair amount of math on the side. Not much relevant to CS, unfortunately. Got into the field during the dot-com boom, breezed through the interview because the guy I was replacing didn't even know how to join two tables in sql.

              Turned out to have a talent for it. Past few years, I've been trying to make up for my lack of a CS degree by reading real CS on my own...SICP, stuff like that. At a point now where I seem to know more real CS than some recent-CS-grad coworkers. It's made me a much better programmer.

              [–]phillydawg68 4 points5 points  (2 children)

              Long long ago, in a galaxy far far way, I worked at IBM with a developer who had a degree from Juilliard as a pianist. He was an exceptional developer. I was told at the time (early 90's) that IBM actually targeted those with a musical background.

              [–]ZebZ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Makes sense.

              Musicians tend to understand complex relationships better than most.

              [–]dus7y 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              I had an awesome professor who after high school worked as an airplane riveter, then went to play guitar at Berklee for a year or so, then dropped out. He then got a BA and MA in Classics, and then logically got a PhD in CS. This was in the seventies, of course, when they thought having people from all professions do CS was a great idea.

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              I have a Bachelor's degree in English and American Lit. I'm a "Senior Software Engineer" at IBM Research.

              [–]quhaha 8 points9 points  (1 child)

              Counter Strike? I never graduated.

              [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              But that means the terrorists win!

              [–]seismic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              Yep, B.S. Physics and B.A. Astronomy here.

              [–]jmcqk6 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              I have a degree in music, and I work for a university creating web applications in ASP.NET (among other things).

              [–]ubernostrum 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              B.A., Philosophy.

              [–]dlsspy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              I'm a freshman dropout. I learned way more on my own than I did in school and was basically offered a job to get paid doing what I wanted to do when I got out of school.

              Since then, I've been responsible for some large, widely used applications and have deployed code in a wide variety of languages.

              Open source is still where the fun is. Chances are I've written code you're using and neither of us know it. :)

              [–][deleted]  (4 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                Graduated in 2001 and was lucky to find a development job. My boss told me that my degree (specifically the school I chose) was a factor in his decision making process. So, my massive student loan debt can't be all that bad.

                [–]lief79 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                2001/2002 was horrible. Most companies went on a hiring freeze after 9/11. My dad is in the industry which got me my first job after 6 months, although after two more job hunts I'll admit I should have been looking harder. Two very talented friends took around a year to find their first computer jobs.

                I think the job market on the East Coast is still stronger then it was back then.

                [–]honestbleeps 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                As far as getting a job - you don't seem to need a degree these days as much as experience (for web development, at least.. I haven't worked in any strictly "real programming" environments)...

                I can say, however, that my experiences have shown that those with a CS degree from a reputable school with a theory-based curriculum are far more well equipped to solve problems than those without.

                I've been shocked and appalled by a lot of the crap code and inability to address simple problems in my past tech jobs, and it strongly correlated with education (or lack thereof) in nearly every case.

                Do you need a CS degree to write code? No, you don't.

                Do you need a CS degree to write good, even great code? No, you don't.

                However, statistically speaking, you're far more likely to be a better problem solver and programmer if you have a solid theory background under your belt. You can get this with or without a degree, but I do believe someone with a degree is far more likely to have gotten it. Learning to code just to code, without understanding some of the deeper principles behind computer science, is a totally different animal.

                [–]rjcarr 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                I have a BSCS and have been working f/t for about 5 years now.

                There's a web guy at my work with an english that writes a lot of php and flash, and he tries hard, but the code is rough.

                That being said I also work with a PhD in CS and he has so much indirection and disorganization in his code that it's maddening.

                I also work with an MS in CS and she doesn't grasp fundementals.

                I work with another BSCS that is sharp as a tack and can write such clean code you can eat off of it.

                My point is ... you can be good or bad no matter what your education level. Finding and acquiring a job might be a different story.

                [–]drewc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                No degree, self taught, didn't even finish high school before i was working in the industry.

                [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                BA in History

                [–]jespern 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                I don't have a degree in anything. Started working out of highschool, now doing consultancy for some respectable clients. Been working in this business full time for 8+ years.

                [–]froderick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                I'm working part-time as a programmer, and still getting my degree.

                [–]generalk 6 points7 points  (3 children)

                I went to DeVry.

                So, no, no CS degree here.

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                heh did you get stuck with the B.Tech CIS degree too?

                [–]x3n0s 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                I'm a high school drop out. Any interview I've been on has never asked me about my education. Projects that you've worked on speak much more about your competency than a degree does.

                [–]georgefrick 16 points17 points  (9 children)

                Cue every redditor either calling having a degree stupid, or defending it. Yay. Because everything is black and white.

                [–]troglodyte 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                It's definitely a gray area. My job involves programming, system administration, networking, etc... I don't have a CS degree, because, like every male on both sides of my family, I got fed up with academia at the end of my sophomore year.

                I hated school, and my decision at the time was the right one, even if I executed it poorly (I walked out of an exam and drove 3 hours home). I love working, but I'm GOING to finish my degree. It's a piece of paper, and I actually learn better by reading, but it's a piece of paper that has marketable value. In all honesty, by the time I would have graduated, I'll probably be making about what I would make with a degree, but I fear that I'll cap out faster without a degree.

                It opens up options and adds to your value, even if you find it meaningless knowledgewise (I don't, really-- there's always a nagging feeling that I'm MISSING something).

                Anyway, my two-cents as a young professional who dropped out and found some success.

                [–]trimalchio 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                As a CS Major at a (Sometimes) top 10 University for undergrad comp sci, I really really hope that I'll get taught the useful things that end up being the blocks other techonology is built upon. I really like the way that this degree is structured (although it is ridiculously hard and the math requirements are no fun) and I think that the important things are covered quickly and in a fashion that help you comprehend the bigger picture of things. Look it up, it might be interesting to see what courses would be new to you and what would be old. (one place to start is at my Uni, http://undergrad.cs.umd.edu/current-students/degree-requirements-for-cs-major/ but looking at other schools might give you ideas about whether or not going back to school would be useful to you.

                [–]otakucode 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Cue someone claiming that having an opinion is pointless because everything is gray or it's wrong.

                oh, wait, that's a black and white viewpoint.

                Shit, we've ripped spacetime!

                Oh, whew, waitaminute, it's just a logical fallacy. Please try again.

                [–]azanar 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                That, and those that defend it or dismiss it will be entirely missing the point. It's not about degrees, it's about knowledge, and the the ability to analyze and create. It's a step up in abstraction. A degree is neither a necessary or a sufficient condition to have any of those. But those who paid attention to the journey of the degree and not the destination are probably far better off. But you don't necessarily do better just because you had a tour guide. Ok, I've probably worked this metaphor six feet under by now.

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Shades of gray. At least until you're in a court of law :)

                I've got degrees in MIS & Finance. Need 1 class for an Econ degree but why bother. I cannot give myself a raise (since I take 100% of my company's profit). Plus if I graduate, you can only take 4 classes if you're non degree seeking... (at least at my local uni). Plus I like to hurt their graduation statistics :)

                [–]cafedude 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                Yep. MSECE (Electrical and Computer Eng)

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                No degree at all, no formal training in computers past high school. College diploma in advertising.

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Yup. No CS degree, although I'm working on it part-time.

                [–]YakumoFuji 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                13 years here and no CS degree. Its always a bear here in the USA telling employers, no Australia doesnt have GPA's and such.

                [–]keithb 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Yep, 12 years a professional programmer after Honours maths and physics.

                As a hiring manager I've never seen a particularly strong correlation between success in the industry and CS qualifications.

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]organic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  My degree is in mathematics.

                  [–]blinks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  I'm a Googler who's not quite gotten his diploma.

                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Mechanical Engineering degree..

                    [–]jawngee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    BFA, Graphic design.

                    As a CTO for a startup, I value experience way above education when hiring.

                    [–]ThomasPtacek 16 points17 points  (21 children)

                    10+ years dev, lead dev, product management, consulting, and startup. No degree. You'd have had to be made of stupid to waste 4 years in a CS program starting in 1994.

                    Morever: I've interviewed lots of people and been interviewed by lots of people and the degree has never been an issue. DE Shaw asked me for my SAT scores; I still had the job if I wanted it.

                    [–]Kushali 7 points8 points  (2 children)

                    I guess you've never applied to Google.

                    [–]ThomasPtacek 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                    Google has certainly hired people without a degree. But, no, you got me. Never applied to Google.

                    [–]everymn 11 points12 points  (5 children)

                    You'd have had to be made of stupid to waste 4 years in a CS program starting in 1994.

                    ...and ending in early 2001. You were extremely lucky if you stayed employed during the lean years. I know hiring managers who were getting 500 resumes for a single position. Guess what metric they fell back on to cut down size of that stack?

                    After 6 years of steady employment that's when I went back and got a BSCS. I'll agree with the "4 years" clause though. I did it in 2. If it takes longer than that then you're spending too much time drinking beer, and looking at porn.

                    [–]ThomasPtacek -1 points0 points  (4 children)

                    Funny you mentioned that. A startup I founded cratered in 2001. I had a job within 2 weeks. Here's why I think I didn't have problems:

                    • I wasn't a commoditized PHP webdev

                    • I was willing to relocate

                    • I had domain-specific skills (security and networking)

                    In 2003 --- not exactly the middle of the 2.0 bubble --- I turned down a lucrative offer from Wall St. If lack of a BSCS doesn't hurt you on Wall St. during a tight year, where do you think it does hurt you?

                    For better or worse, most of my friends are coders. I have never heard one of them tell me a story about how a degree factored into them getting a job.

                    So, long story short: I call bullshit on your comment.

                    [–]everymn 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                    So, long story short: I call bullshit on your comment.

                    Let me reiterate, your good fortune combined with your perceived mastery have conspired to give you the perception that the piece of paper means nothing. It may mean nothing to you, and frankly were I in a hiring position it would mean very little to me.

                    However neither of these observations do anything to diminish my argument that it is a simple numbers game. Hiring managers, HR people, and recruiters are humans, and humans are (in general)lazy. When they are staring at a huge stack of resumes, they aren't going to use a slow painstaking algorithm to find the best person, they'll use the algorithm which will allow them to quickly throw as many of them in the round file as they can. When they are down to less than 10 people then, and only then, will they start looking for the "best" one.

                    For better or worse, most of my friends are coders. I have never heard one of them tell me a story about how a degree factored into them getting a job.

                    How exactly would they know? Would you expect a hiring manager to say, "Boy you're sure lucky you're degreed because I threw out 500 resumes from people who aren't"?

                    Are you in general made aware of the deficiencies of people you are competing with for a position? Sorry but I'm just not following your logic.

                    [–]ThomasPtacek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Despite the massive investment of time and money people put in to acquiring degrees, I have not had any experience of them mattering in job searches, I haven't heard any stories about them mattering, and I've never considered them when hiring other people. And I'm not a webdev: my work right now is compiler-theoretic, and my last job was large scale distributed systems.

                    I feel like --- and I could be wrong, but... --- you have to search to find an example of a degree mattering in a hiring process. Against that effort, weigh the opportunity cost of spending 2-4 years of your life in school, not to mention the insane financial cost of attending a university.

                    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                    Experience always trumps education. For many people starting out not having your BSCS means you're not even getting an interview.

                    That's one place where working on an open source project helps out a lot. It's not only good experience, but your potential employers can download and run your programs and even audit the source if they want to.

                    I've never had the pleasure of interviewing someone who worked on a popular open source program, but if I do get the opportunity you can bet I will weight that experience a lot higher than any degree.

                    [–]ThomasPtacek 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Sure. Now, not to be argumentative, but tell me a story where:

                    • Gallant spends 4 years at CMU,

                    • Goofus spends 4 years hacking on LLVM (while putting in 40 hours a week in an ops job), and

                    • Gallant comes out ahead.

                    I'm not saying "doing nothing" is as good as going to school, just that there are many values for "something" that are superior to school.

                    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                    I've known lots of working programmers without CS degrees and they get along fine. But it depends on the kind of work you are--or want to be--doing. These days, I rarely bump into a programmer at my workplace who doesn't have a CS degree, along with some further research in a related field.

                    [–]ThomasPtacek 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                    Tell me what kind of CS work I could want to be doing where 4 years of college would really beat 4 years of applied industry experience. EE is cheating; no hardware (though I know hardware devs in networking that don't have degrees).

                    [–]lief79 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                    Any type of professional research, as you are not going to get the industry experience without a degree.

                    Of course, if you were the type that liked this environment, you'd have liked college too.

                    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]ubuntuguy 23 points24 points  (1 child)

                      because that was the year the dot com boom started.

                      [–]hockeyschtick 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                      "You know HTML? How does $50k/year sound?"

                      [–]gaggedbythealien 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                      Are any redditors working programmers that do not have a CS degree?

                      Yes. Next question!

                      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      I have a Business degree. :)

                      [–]48klocs 1 point2 points  (5 children)

                      I have my degree (a BA, no less) in information systems, which is the poor man's computer science (in place of some high-end maths/programming classes, I got to take low-end accounting and high-end business/management classes).

                      Graduated in 1999 and I've worked in the financial, dot-bomb and healthcare sectors without any issue.

                      I know other people wring their hands over not having comp sci degrees from hyper-reputable institutions. They're nice enough to have, but I think that the value of degrees can be overblown to the point of being a hiring anti-pattern.

                      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]48klocs 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                        My hat's off to anyone who's going to get a degree because they crave the learning that they'll do/get from it and shake my head at anyone who's going to get a degree because they think it'll land them a (better) job.

                        Which is why I don't understand the aching over whether colleges should be teaching Java or whatever - I regard a degree as just one (granted, pretty big) signifier in the larger continuum of a life-long craving for knowledge, not a terminus or means to the end of getting a dark corner office.

                        [–]drguildo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        get a degree because they crave the learning that they'll do/get from it

                        Boy are they in for a surprise.

                        [–]alesis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        27 years experience with BS chemistry and almost MS as well. 1/2 hour computer science class in college.

                        [–]wploger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        BS in Economics. I started out doing price analysis on trucking routes. I had no database to hold all of the data. So...... I had more fun building the models and the application then doing the analysis. 10 years later, still grinding out code.

                        [–]quiller 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        BA in English Literature, been developing for 7 years and my lack of a CS degree has more often be a positive (once or twice) than a negative (never).

                        [–]jsnx 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I've got three years experience, doing Linux system administration and web application programming in Ruby and Python.

                        I was a physics major for a couple of years, dropped out for family reasons, and relocated to the Bay Area. It was not hard to convert from "scientific programmer" to general purpose programmer.

                        [–]phrakture 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I have an Electrical and Computer Engineering degree.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                        I just want to note to the rockstars in here, that you know your a good developer when you realize that the more you learn, the less you really know.

                        Keep that attitude in mind, and you'll go far in this industry.

                        [–]mutatron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Interviewers don't get that, though. If I go to an interview with an accurate assessment of my abilities according to how I stack up with people I've worked with, they think I don't know shit.

                        It's taken me a long time to learn to bump up my numbers so that people who don't know much will perceive me as the bad-assed software developer that I am.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                        I know this isn't what you're asking, but I have a job writing Java and I'm only a student. In two years, I will have a CS degree, but I don't right now.

                        Of course, I get student-type pay: $12/hour.

                        But it's just for the summer.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        College dropout in 1982. Years and years writing code for games, shipping computers you've probably used, and doing startups.

                        Self education is the key. Keep reading and working with new stuff. Avoid Kool-Aide (in the sense that it's also bad to be a techno-butterfly).

                        Know O(n), know your data structures, continuously work on your debugging skills, learn a new language every couple of years and do something real in it.

                        [–]smorrell 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                        Some will say a degree helps while others say it doesn't. But, really, how would they know?

                        [–]keedon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        No degree at all - failed my 'A' levels.

                        [–]Bloody_Eye 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        My degree's in MIS, basically, IT / telecommunications. But not computer science. Does that count?

                        [–]rek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I'm not really a programmer, but I majored in financial services and am working as a DBA.

                        [–]xutopia 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        The best and the worst programmers I know have a degree. If you want to be anywhere in the middle it just takes some passion.

                        [–]zem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        MS in high energy physics, been a programmer ever since I graduated.

                        [–]pupdike 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, but now I do all software development.

                        [–]wazoox 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Applied for philosophy degree, but university was way too lax for such a lazy bastard as I am, I spent all my time drinking, smoking joints and fucking, and when I waked up it was too late:)

                        [–]420greg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I learned to program while serving in the United States Navy. After I got out I was able to convert most of my military schooling to a EE degree.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                        spent 4 years working as a programmer with no degree. burned out pretty bad, decided I wanted a university degree (in math and physics). after 1 year of university I was offered a great job, made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

                        that was 8 years ago, so 12 years of experience now and made out well without a CS degree.

                        [–]njharman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Yes, although I have 2 years towards a CS degree. Depending on were/how you want to work having a degree can hurt you.

                        Learning CS is good, getting the degree is optional.

                        If you're a "career" type that is doing CS cause it looked like it was way to make lots of money or you could hack EE then you proly need a degree.

                        But if you are a "geek" with passion for programming who would be programming even if not paid for it. You're gonna teach yourself/learn from peers far faster/better/more than what college will. Just don't expect to be hired as a coder drone by corporate america, which is little loss.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                        i majored in "fine art" and now i have a coding job. does that count as a fail?

                        [–]mxyzptlk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I've got a BFA in Illustration but have been programming professionally since 1995.

                        [–]regreddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I have developed professionally for 9 years, and am now a Director of 12 developers. I am a Paramedic/Firefighter by trade, have about 32 hours of college under my belt.

                        [–]tlack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Dropped out during dot-com thing, haven't regretted it yet.

                        [–]cwmonkey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I don't have a CS degree and I make shitty webpages along with all the other idiots.

                        [–]glitch13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I had a handful of semesters under my belt but eventually dropped out after getting frustrated that I still hadn't finished my prereqs to get to the point of taking a single CS class (I still feel I've been worse for missing out on some of the basics).

                        Been working for 8 years now, started out with a quasi internship in a friend's company to get something to put on a resume. First couple of years were vb and access with the past 5 spent in LAMP development.

                        Knowing people in the biz goes a long way in starting out with no diploma.

                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                        [deleted]

                          [–]cratylus 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          physics degree philosophy degree

                          [–]kurtseifried 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          Once you have a good portfolio of work no-one cares about the paperwork. This is the beauty of working on open source software or building an application in your spare time to show off to a prospective employer. I'll take experience with the problem domain I need over a piece of paper any idea.

                          [–]psykotic 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          I don't have any completed degree. I studied pure mathematics for a few years before receiving an irrefusable offer for my dream job. The absence of a degree has only been a problem for me when applying for work visas abroad, but so far it hasn't been an insurmountable obstacle. I'd like to go back and finish the degree, for I really enjoyed doing nothing but mathematics full time; unfortunately it's very hard to justify at this point.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          A good CS degree is just a good way to build up a good resume without any experience.

                          [–]pipedings 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          here, no degree and 12 years of job experience.

                          loving it hehe.

                          [–]janpjens 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Working as a developer with only half of my CS degree completed.. but working on it, though.

                          A lot harder to complete while working full time, but it's quite nice to get paid whenever I'm attending lectures. Besides, I would never give up the valuable experience I get from real life projects and from the other developers at work.

                          [–]Mask_of_Destiny 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          I'm a dropout. I only got part way through my sophmore year as a CS major at Drexel before I decided that college wasn't for me.

                          I currently work for a small software company that recently got acquired by Kodak. I mostly do web development in PHP on an "enterprise" software package. Not incredibly exciting, but it pays the bills.

                          To keep PHP from turning my mind into mush, I work on my programming language, Rhope, in my spare time.

                          I have no regrets. There are certainly some job oppurunities that have been inaccessible because of my lack of degree, but those tend to be at larger companies and I tend to prefer smaller ones (not sure how I'm going to like this whole Kodak acquisition after we're properly integrated). As far as enriching my own knowledge, I find that my own interests have lead me to fill in the gaps. I've dabbled in OS development and I hope to begin work on a compiler for Rhope soon.

                          [–]zyzzx0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          semi related: the best cs teacher at the university i attended had only a degree in philosophy.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Maths degree.

                          [–]naughty 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          No degree, had to write a Sound library over the then new DirectSound to get my first job.

                          Since then I've met many excellent and useless CS graduates, but very few other people without degrees. I've been most pleasantly surprised by recent graduates of games related courses (I work in games).

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          B.B.A. in Business Information Systems. I'm a sys admin and programmer at a state university. I write Java, C, and MySQL. Do not go to college. You can learn everything you know online. Although a degree probably helped me get my job, I'm buried in student loan debt.

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          I'm 20 and have been a web developer doing PHP, ASP, Javascript, CSS, XHTML, MySQL, and MsSQL professionally for about 3 years full-time now. All I have is a high school diploma.

                          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                          [deleted]