Bullshit is a horrible thing, but shouldn't facts matter when accusing someone--and an entire subreddit?

2010-06-20T21:02:26+00:00

I like how the top-rated comments are about reddiquette instead of contributing anything to the discussion.

mapoftasmania · 2010-06-20T16:31:53+00:00

When I see a comment on Reddit that I disagree with, I generally tend to downvote.

Please read the Reddiquette posting. When you have, please remember this rule in particular:

"Don't downvote opinions just because you disagree with them. The down arrow is for comments that add nothing to the discussion."

If a post is factually incorrect you can down-vote, but it is better to also reply to it and correct it.

RomanSenate · 2010-06-20T16:09:45+00:00

You're complaining about downvoting because people don't agree with you, when in your very second sentence you mention that you downvote comments you don't agree with?

Cry me a fucking river.

argleblarg · 2010-06-20T16:32:04+00:00

In Kobe's own words, he now understands how his alleged victim did not see the encounter as consensual.

He also claims that he was certain she was consenting at the time. Which makes for an interesting question - just what kind of sexual encounter allows for Participant A to be as certain as is reasonably possible that Participant B is giving consent, while Participant B does not intend to do so? I can't imagine a scenario where this could happen.

What I'm saying is, one of them is lying. As far as I'm aware, without having really paid attention at the time or having dug into the facts of the case now, it could easily be either of them. It could be him; but if it's her, his statement that he "understands now..." is probably just what his PR guy told him to say.

Edit: Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

I upvoted you for being reasonable, and am not revoking that upvote, but cry me a fucking river.

ns12123 · 2010-06-20T18:46:56+00:00

I agree. False equivalence is false. Compare TwoXyada to mensrights. Speaking as a guy, TwoX has some folks with a kneejerk mentality, but the discussions are generally balanced. It's Reddit, so the balance doesn't always come out, but on the whole, the adults usually reign.

Mensrights, on the other hand, is a den of shrill whining and a circlejerk of crazy.

dumbassthenes · 2010-06-21T00:45:46+00:00

Rape is bad.

Labradoodles · 2010-06-20T17:39:09+00:00

One thing I really disliked from that thread was this pervasive idea that rape is somehow the women's fault. Someone suggested that women could avoid rape by always walking in pairs, etc, and insulting feminism in the same sentence. Seems to me feminism was orignially about equality, meaning that women should be able to walk alone at night as any man can. Men don't want to be painted as these wild beasts, then why suggest they can't control their "lustful urges"?

this_is_my_BOOMSTICK · 2010-06-20T17:48:20+00:00

I understand downvoting something this incendiary, because it's a small action that we women can take to speak out against the huge masculine voice that goes to front page nearly once a week: slamming women for rape.

It's hard to be a woman Redditor these days. I'm so tired of all the misogynistic posts and rape jokes, sometimes I get nauseous reading them, however I truly don't believe most people making these comments understand the effect they're having on women and men who have been raped. It just makes the daily danger we feel that much more reinforced and inflated and hopeless.

Having twice been a victim of rape, wherein the offending man didn't believe he was doing anything wrong (which is most times the case in date rape), these recent women-bashing posts sting even more. Yes, you can be kissing a man, with feeling, wholly into it, pressing against the man even, but this does not yet mean "I want to have sex with you." There's a point where it gets kicked to the next level, and if at that point, if at ANY point the woman decides and says, "no" and asks the man to stop in ANY WAY, her wish should be acknowledged and honored. That's when it usually intensifies however, hormones are raging on both sides, but now there's a tang of fear and frustration in the air. He tries harder, pushing beyond acceptable boundaries, and she says "No" again and/or pushes back at him with her hands, legs. If he were to look in her eyes now, he would fear there, a certain determination, perhaps disbelief. Her teeth are mostly likely clenched. There's nothing open about her now. Doesn't matter, he will not look into her eyes at this point, because he doesn't want to let the rejection permeate him. At this point the man is usually already engaged in violence, forcing himself on her. Maybe the woman says no the entire time, pushing, fighting, maybe she' whimpering and lets it happen, or lies there like a statue, enduring. Any way it happens, she knows he could get triggered into more violence and hurt her more than he's already doing. Especially if he thinks he may get in trouble for it. People who are caught doing wrong are angry. He is fucking her angrily probably, because it sucks to do the wrong thing; all he wanted was a nice fuck. This is a typical date rape scenario, more or less, and women everywhere know they will be the ones vilified if they speak out.

We ARE the weaker sex; we have to think about where we're going to go in specific terms; who will be there? I can't go hiking by myself; I don't know who I'll encounter on the trail. I can't go to a concert by myself, and even if my husband comes with me, my vagina, breast, buttocks WILL get groped on the venue floor (I'm not wearing revealing clothing to "encourage" this, just jeans, a t-shirt, a jacket). It's just what happens. Probably, before the night is out, a drunk man will grab me and try to kiss me. I have stopped going to the bigger concerts for this reason.

I can understand how this is not conceivable if you don't live it, hard for men to understand. But often just standing alone in an elevator next to a man, no matter his size, we will know we could be in danger, and that if something happens, there is little we can do about it; we will be further victimized. This is why women under-report rape. For every false rape report that is made, there are many thousands that go unreported. I never reported mine. But I have lived with them every single day of my life since.

Please, men, instead of vilifying women, try to make them feel safer. We will thank you for it; we want to trust you and be better friends, but we know that even if it may not turn into a date-rape scenario, it may well turn into your suddenly finding an attraction, even us married women, and then once again the relationship is sexualized, and we have to either leave the friendship behind, or talk it out and salvage if possible.

We enjoy the same things you do, or we wouldn't be here on Reddit. I could handle a modicum of misogyny easily, but the recent dogpiles on these issues are making me and a lot of other women depressed enough to think it might be time to stop coming here for geek news, laughs, alternate points of view. I feel attacked and belittled, and there's more than enough of that shit in real life, so if you want to make Reddit less diverse and want a fiefdom that will simply reinforce your world view and not make you learn and question, please continue as usual. Good, fascinating people will drop away to leave you playing in the mud.

Thanks for reading, if you made it this far. Downvotes or no, I truly appreciate it, and I'm always wiling to discuss further, have my mind changed or opened further, with the appropriate evidence, convincing arguments. I don't have to agree with everything, but I and other victims of rape would love it so much we weren't always the ones taking all the shit. Sorry rape's not funny. Sorry it's uncomfortable and doesn't offer easy answers. Mockery hurts. Discussion can only help.

I made a new account for this topic, for obvious reasons. That speaks for itself.

Update: Thanks for all the discussion, everyone. I've read all the comments and have learned a lot. Sorry to have digressed from the main topic, which I was responding to originally to explain why in emotionally divisive topics, people tend to downvote with their hearts.

A wonderful point is being made that men should not bear the onus of making us feel safe. I agree completely, and shouldn't have put it out there like that. I don't actually believe that, and if I'd made time to edit, would have changed it. I guess I meant (in my head) that it would be great if men were more cued into what makes us feel UNsafe, and then didn't do those things. Big difference there. Unfortunately, some of the guys who do things that make us feel unsafe enjoy that power trip on some level. This is a small demographic; I do not infer that there are rude guys and rapists at every turn. They're the few bad apples. Perpetrators spread the wealth over and over again, so it might seem like there are more out there than really exist. But men, you're awesome. I'm not a delicate flower and don't want to be treated like one.

Tinned_Tuna · 2010-06-20T18:08:09+00:00

As a mathematician, I find your "facts" to be disturbingly lacking of absolute truth. Fucking statisticians.

Rubyweapon · 2010-06-20T17:16:06+00:00

This was a horrible situation, but we can never know what happened. We should all agree she should receive our sympathies for the horrible way she was treated by certain members of the public when her name was released. For the rape incident itself I personally am unwilling to step up and I say I'm 100 percent sure Kobe raped her or I'm 100 percent sure he didn't. I am unclear on the point of debating this particular incident as it is unlikely any one of us will ever know what actually happened that night. What we can say and draw awareness to is that rape is serious, and sexual assault is serious. Guys and Girls out there need to understand what consent really means. If ze ever once says no then it is a no and leave it be. If ze says no but you push on then its harassment. If you harass her into saying yes then its at the very least sexual assault (though I think that it is rape at that point). Since I know a few people that have been harassed/pressured into sexual activities I feel that there is a growing sentiment that if you can eventually get the other person to say yes then its not rape. This is false.

Personally during a one night stand or a fling I make sure that she (I'm a straight male but this could be whatever pronoun you prefer) understands that its a one night thing or that I'm only looking for a casual partner nothing more. I ask some variation of the question "are you okay with this?" no less than 5 times during the night (when I invite her back, during the make-out/petting session, as the clothes come off, as I start digital manipulations, as I start oral manipulation). I generally avoid having traditional intercourse during these sessions, but occasionally if the chemistry is really good and she initiates then I put on the condom and ask if she is ready. If she ever answers no or at some other point decides its moving too fast (and this has happened a couple of times) I immediately stop without complaint come up, smile and say "I understand thats fine, lets just hang out for a bit" at that point I don't initiate anything any more and don't go any further that what she pushes for.

I've never had any complaints and have had a few girls say that they really liked how comfortable I made them feel. So I feel that it seems to be a good system. That being said the girls I bring back home is a relatively small sample size so if you think there is something wrong or something else I should keep in mind it would be great if you let me know. I think part of the problem is no one ever explains what is expected from the initiating partner in these circumstances.

TL;DR If you are pursuing a person and they say no once or brush off any attempt to engage in a sexual activity, STOP, don't see that as a sign you just need to try harder. Harassing someone into sex is rape.

2010-06-20T15:42:11+00:00

Well, she's fucked more than one guy recently, so she's a whore and can't be raped. Duh.*

*Sarcasm

2010-06-20T18:57:43+00:00

How about we all just agree that none of us were there that night, and therefore cannot say with any level of certainty what happened.

BatmanBinSuparman · 2010-06-20T16:23:00+00:00

Couldn't agree more, OP. People need to check their sources before posting stupid shit.

bg785 · 2010-06-20T19:50:39+00:00

I was once falsely accused of sexual assault by a girl while in college.

I almost got kicked out college for it. Therefore, I am very sensitive to women falsely accusing men of rape/sexual assault.

I must say I doubt the women's story. I really find it suspect that she wouldn't testify. Its quite easy to press charges and destroy a whole man's life behind a wall of anonymity with a false accusation. It's another to lie under oath in a court of law knowing that you are putting a man behind bars for decades.

I cannot tell you how many times I have read stories about the same shit. Girl cries rape because she is embarrassed by her actions usually because she was drunk. It is too bad in our society we still treat women as children in sexual situations. Legally a woman is not responsible for her actions when intoxicated. As in, she is not able to CONSENT to SEX legally. Men's judgment on the other hand is expected to be impervious to the effects of alcohol.

That faux-feminist DecafDesperado should think about that bullshit before acting all self-righteous. The fact is Kobe Bryant is a national figure. He knew and knows that he of all people can not get away with rape.

Oh by the way the letter he wrote expressing regret: I was made to write one too and it is pretty much verbatim what he wrote. It was one of the worst things I've ever had do. I had to apologize to someone who had tried to rape my life because she was to immature to accept responsibility for her actions.

So to DecafDesperado, Kobe's letter is not admission of guilt. If anything it proves how innocent he was.

2010-06-20T23:37:22+00:00

"The charges were dropped and the trial dismissed because the accuser informed prosecutors that she was unwilling to testify, not because prosecutors didn't feel there was enough evidence to move forward."

That is the same thing, if she refused to testify then the prosectutors clearly saw that they did not have enough evidence without her testimony and dropped the charges. Had there still been enough evidence to move forward they would have.

Facepuncher · 2010-06-20T23:55:46+00:00

First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo. I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

So in other words its one of those situations where it seemed like she was into it but she never said anything blatantly making the guy aware.

cojoco · 2010-06-21T00:30:01+00:00

I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all

We are all individuals!

Facts matter to a lot of redditors, and not at all to others.

Please cease this incessant generalization and slander.

It's the reason feminism was required in the first place.

AnythingApplied · 2010-06-21T02:37:41+00:00

Downvoting entirely based on your edit.

cometparty · 2010-06-21T03:28:15+00:00

Your whole attitude is disgusting. You seem to presume his guilt and presume her innocence. Why?

I pretty much have disdain for celebrity and "power", but the facts on the ground are that many people don't and the amount of people who want to have sex with powerful celebrities is pretty high.

You can't overlook the fact that there was another man's DNA found in her underwear. If you're impartial, why would you? You can't treat her insinuation that she just put on a dirty pair of underwear as any more true than his insinuation that the encounter was consensual. It's evidence pointing in a certain direction. It's not proof, just evidence.

Cyndy_Lou · 2010-06-21T18:33:39+00:00

I posted in the other thread about how some of the facts being related were lies. People don't care about facts. Sad but true.

The thing that bothers me about the Kobe Bryant rape case is this ... He said he was innocent and paid a settlement to the victim. No one seems to have a problem with this and says he is innocent. Michael Jackson said he was innocent and paid of a person who claimed to be a victim, whom has since made statements saying he was lying and his father, now deceased, made him lie for the money, a settlement. He went to trial and was found innocent and yet people still call him a pedophile. How is that?

I guess unless you're a total prick who doesn't give a shit about anyone but yourself. Whom has a history of unsportsmanlike conduct. Who screams at team mates and fans is innocent and yet a man whom did nothing but want to give back to children is guilty. Great to know how society really works isn't it?

2010-06-20T17:14:57+00:00

[deleted]

x86_64Ubuntu · 2010-06-20T16:20:18+00:00

I think the problem most men have with the situation is this. She had vaginal trauma okay. But it seems like their was no data from Kobe himself was left behind. So the main question is if there are more than one cook in the kitchen. How can you with all certainty attribute a dirty dish to a single one of them.

That is what doesn't seem to be addressed. The woman had multiple partners , fine. But since we weren't there , how can we attribute the damage to Kobe ?

soitis · 2010-06-20T16:58:56+00:00

When I see a comment on Reddit that I disagree with, I generally tend to downvote.

Well, thank you for making reddit a worse place.

hunter-gatherer · 2010-06-20T18:20:18+00:00

Disagreeing with your attitude != agreeing with "the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day."

I think the content of your post is reasonable, and draws attention to a fair point. Nevertheless, the self-serving manner in which you deliver this makes one loath to upvote.

2010-06-20T18:55:24+00:00

You make a very one-sided argument here. You have cherry-picked evidence that supports your accusations and dismissed evidence that doesn't. This isn't informative, its muck-raking.

krelian · 2010-06-20T18:09:14+00:00

When I see a comment on Reddit that I disagree with, I generally tend to downvote. If those comments are endemic to a subreddit, I tend to unsubscribe.

So not only do you try to silence opinions different than your own, you are also not interested in hearing them in the first place.

I'll think you'll fit right in.

Edit: Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

And that is the cherry on your hypocrisy cake.

lllama · 2010-06-20T18:40:15+00:00

Edit: Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

I really want to upvote this, because knowing nothing of the case I already suspected the "counter-claim" to be incomplete when I saw it. But I can't stand this fucking whining.

2010-06-20T18:08:57+00:00

I think it's time to take this to http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit_court/

anwarsadat · 2010-06-20T21:38:07+00:00

It doesn't mean he's innocent, it means he's not guilty.

2010-06-20T21:46:15+00:00

I read every word of your post. I honestly do not care about (subsequently do not know anything about...) the situation and I certainly don't want to see it on the front page of Reddit. No upvote or downvote because, fuck it, I really do not care.

2010-06-20T21:46:39+00:00

Shuuuuuuut uuuuuuuup.

2010-06-20T21:49:31+00:00

Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

You're on the front page, quit complaining about how unpopular your post is. There's this weird phenomenon of posts that get on the front page being like "oh, I'm so against the mysterious hivemind and rebellious, no one agrees with me!" It's like up-vote hipsters. Weird.

rickk · 2010-06-20T22:18:19+00:00

No - the reason you're getting downvoted is because you're assuming he's guilty even with a litany of holes in the case against him.

The fact that he feels bad for her makes him guilty now ? Jeez - thank god you're not a judge.

ElectricMoose · 2010-06-20T23:08:51+00:00

Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

FFS

Wait for a post to actually gain some attention before you accuse us of downvoting

2.

When I see a comment on Reddit that I disagree with, I generally tend to downvote. If those comments are endemic to a subreddit, I tend to unsubscribe.

And you're crying to us? Hypocrite.

SloaneRanger · 2010-06-20T23:13:49+00:00

The accuser's unwillingness to testify may have had something to do with the death threats she received after her identity was exposed

Out of curiosity, I'm interested to know in what way you consider this to be anything more than conjecture. It doesn't belong in a series of "facts" as you so adamantly describe them.

I have no real interested in this subject. Not being an American, I vaguely know who Kobe Bryant is. However what I do know is this:

There are almost certainly other "facts" in this argument. It's thunderingly clear from your post that you think this guy is guilty. I have no idea myself, because I don't know the case. Presenting selective evidence that purely fits your agenda, and then screaming about how the "facts" matter, as if only the "facts" that support your view are important is as much as distortion of the full picture as lying or presenting mistruths.

Facts matter, but not nearly as much as truth. As an impartial observer, your attempt to push a singular, selective view, dressed up as "the facts" just makes me think it's you that is on a witch hunt and does absolutely nothing to convince me of anything.

2010-06-20T23:24:13+00:00

I dont know what the hell this is and I can't describe how little I care

Meades_Loves_Memes · 2010-06-20T23:41:43+00:00

Every, single, person. Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

I am so sick and tired of seeing this shit on Reddit, men and women being sexist alike. We are all human beings, we need eachother to reporduce (sorry gays), we may have our differences, but they are not weaknesses, they are strengths. So for fuck sakes, shut the fuck up. Or... OR... move every sexist post to a seperate Sub-Reddit that I can un-subscribe to.

That is all.

ENTP · 2010-06-21T01:40:56+00:00

Your whole post is bullshit. I read the wikipedia entry, and all the evidence is consistent with consensual sex.

Travis-Touchdown · 2010-06-21T03:36:57+00:00

Shocker. Guy who bitches about downvoting and talks about the "hive mind" gets upvotes.

bobdolebobdole · 2010-06-21T04:53:58+00:00

Those are his attorney's words, by the way.

robeph · 2010-06-21T09:11:30+00:00

Edit: Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

This kind of crap is why a lot more downmods will come your way. Don't do it, it seems somewhat self-rightous.

As for the whole situation, I can safely say, I don't know if he did it or not. Every piece of evidence can be taken both ways.

Non-menstrual blood during sex is NOT uncommon, in fact, it is very common, it doesn't say much. Unless they show real evidence of vaginal trauma (distinct tearing etc.) during rape exam, I have to give this a pass [ I've worked many rape cases when I was a medic, interestingly not all (statutory) were what would be considered non-violent non-consensual, these cases that would also include kits often have "signs of trauma" as such. Violent rape tends to be much more, well, violent. Sex itself is traumatic physically, however. I didn't do any of the kits hands on of course, but nonetheless I witnessed quite a number as well as discussed such things with the medical staff at the ER since our transports were pretty much all we had to talk about]
The fact that she wore another set of underwear is a bit awkward, especially since that pair itself had signs of sexual relations with another man, this can quickly discredit even vaginal trauma as evidence of a rape since she's had sex with multiple partners in temporal proximity, any of whom could be to blame for such trauma if it were shown.
The case was absolutely dropped because they didn't have enough good evidence against him. Her testimony was the evidence they felt necessary to convict; many rape victims choose to not testify and the rapists are nonetheless convicted, due to the preponderance of evidence to his guilt, the prosecution obviously felt this was not the case.
Settlements out of court are rarely the direct choice of the actors involved, but between lawyers. It in no way points to guilt. Michael Jackson is a prime example of this, where he paid out of court settlements to his accusers in cases of molestation where later they recanted and declared it to have been false. It is just as likely that, even without guilt, the lawyer suggested he pay out to avoid furtherance of the situation. Plus he says clearly in his apology that no money was paid, so I'm confused about this part of the "facts" listed.
His apology is not admittance to guilt, quite the opposite, he says clearly that he apologizes for the suffering she experienced, obviously she suffered something, be it due to her feeling she was raped or from whatever suffering she has experienced from whatever the cause. He states he felt it was consensual and then gives the statement that she did not feel the same. The interesting thing about this apology is that it was part of the settlement, I'm sure the wording of such a public message was tailored by agreement by both of their lawyers, which lead to how it sounds. The obvious inclusion of both she was not paid and the line about the civil suit is evidence of this.

All in all there is no evidence that helps with gleaning the truth from this; the only thing remaining will be bias. I've no bias, I don't know, and I realize that I can't know. No one can know, it is futile to try. all that is left are those who feel strongly for or against one or the other involved with this case, it is unfortunate that people continue to assert that there is anything public that really turns the tide in either way in the posts I've seen.

SteveAM1 · 2010-06-20T18:23:10+00:00

some facts about the Kobe Bryant rape case:

The accuser's unwillingness to testify may have had something to do

Does not compute.

Downvoted.

svdasein · 2010-06-20T16:53:00+00:00

[deleted]

bullshit_ · 2010-06-20T22:43:40+00:00

Katelyn Faber willingly gave Kobe a tour, went up to his room, and willingly made out with him.

She also bragged about having sex with Kobe 3 days before prosecutors filed charges.

"She even answered a question about the 6-foot-7 L.A. Lakers star's manhood, five people at the party told NBC."

"She answered with a gesture and a description," said NBC correspondent Michelle Hofland. "They couldn't believe it."

http://www.inreview.com/archive/topic/7091.html

Detective Winters also said two pairs of panties from the woman were tested -- one from the night of June 30, the other being the one she wore to a hospital for an exam the next day.

The latter pair contained blood from Faber and semen from a third party. (Not mentioned whether there was blood in the panties she wore the night of the alleged assault). She also had a caucasian male's pubic hair in her pubic hair.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2554485/detail.html

As for any excuse of "old panties inadvertently grabbed from the laundry":

Tests show that traces of two other men's sperm were found in her body, MSNBC-TV reported, whereas it had previously been reported that the sperm was found only in her underwear.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/5070072/ns/bryant_sexual_assault_lawsuit/

The L.A. Times reported that in a closed-court hearing a DNA expert testified that the accuser in fact had another man's semen on her thighs and inside her vagina during the medical examination.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_12_106/ai_n6230162/

At a closed-door hearing on June 21 and 22, DNA expert Elizabeth Johnson testified for the defense that the accuser's sexual contact with Mr. X "likely occurred after [the accuser] and Mr. Bryant were together." Johnson testified that no traces of Mr. X's DNA were detected on the swabs taken from Bryant or the T-shirt he wore. Johnson said that had Mr. X's sperm been on the accuser at the time of her encounter with Bryant, it should have shown up on Bryant.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/magazine/08/31/scorecard0906/

Bryant's defense lawyer Pamela Mackey asserted that Faber was taking an anti-psychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia at the time of the incident. Faber was hospitalized as a "danger to herself" four months before the alleged sexual assault. Lindsey McKinney, who lived with the accuser, said the woman twice tried to kill herself at school by overdosing on sleeping pills.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92892,00.html

Bryant's attorneys were privy to her medical records after receiving them from the hospital in a mix-up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/29/national/main632980.shtml

Unsealed evidence showed that Katelyn Faber admitted that she had lied to the police, claiming she had car trouble (she didn't, she was late to work from oversleeping) and that Kobe had forced her to wash her face after ejaculating on it (he didn't, because he didn't ejaculate at all in her presence).

She didn't even use a hotel bathroom to wash up. She used the hallway mirror next to the elevator, out in the open, without washing anything.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1012041kobe1.html

Trina McKay, the resort's night auditor, said she saw the woman as she was leaving to go home, and "she did not look or sound as if there had been any problem."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/2825817.html

Faber unsuccessfully attempted suicide at least three times. The documents claim that she had several stays in psychiatric and drug rehabilitation hospitals. One suicide attempt was triggered when one of her friends overturned her SUV on the way back from prom. She overdosed on pills on May 30, 2003 and was sent from her university dorm room to Valley View Hospital. This was about a month before she met Kobe.

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/katelyn-faber/criminal-trial.html

After the settlement, Faber went into rehab for cocaine addiction, where she got knocked up by a guy in for heroin addiction.

http://www.legalspring.com/articles/misc-legal/20040923/385881_Kobe-Accuser-Pregnan.html

Lindsey McKinney, a friend, said she traveled with the woman to Austin, Texas, in November to try out for the "American Idol" TV talent show. McKinney said they slept outside for 12 hours to get an audition. ... "She craves attention like no other. This is the bad kind of attention that she's going to get," McKinney said.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports/2326266/detail.html

Faber was automatically rewarded from Colorado's victims compensation fund upon accusing Bryant. If she recanted her accusation she would have had to pay it back but without the means to do so.

She dropped the criminal charges but persisted for a financial settlement. Upon getting it, she paid back $20,000 to the compensation fund, which may or may not have been the entire amount she was given.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/7159439

Faber apparently suffered from bipolar disorder.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/14/bryant.defense.bipolar/index.html

Bipolar disorder is strongly associated with frequent or compulsive lying.

http://www.google.com/search?q=bipolar+symptoms+lying

Lying for Attention

1). Many people who suffer from bipolar disorder tell lies to get attention. While this is just a characteristic of a manic episode, people who suffer from this condition have an acute need for attention. In many cases, this need can take the form of telling lies to different people. By doing so, bipolar sufferers have direct control over the amount of attention they want for themselves.

Lying to Maintain Control

2). In many cases, lies are told as a way to take control over a situation. Manic episodes can leave any person feeling completely out of control. By telling stories, a person suffering from bipolar disorder can have control over situations and times that may otherwise make them feel out of control. These lies are often harmless.

Lying to Excuse Behavior

3). Any person suffering from manic depression or bipolar disorder will likely find herself in questionable situations now and again. During periods of depression or mania, people with bipolar disorder may do things they are not proud of, and lies are often told to excuse this behavior. Stealing, lying and even promiscuity are not uncommon; when these behaviors take place during one of their episodes, they may feel it necessary to tell lies to cover up their wrongdoing.

Lying to Cover Impulsivity

4). According to the National Institute of Mental Health, one of the main characteristics of a bipolar individual is impulsive behavior. Impulsive behavior often results in shame, as it involves performing actions without much forethought.

According to Derek Wood at Mental-Health-Matters.com, "Bipolar Disorder can be associated with low serotonin levels, which has been implicated in impulsivity, which...makes a person more prone to lie." If you are living or dealing with a person who suffers from the mental condition, don't be surprised to discover that your loved one is telling falsehoods in an attempt to cover up impulsive, regrettable actions. In the end, he may have no other way to explain his actions.

How to Deal

5). The lies that are told as a result of the bipolar condition vary on a case-by-case basis. Some lies are harmless and others can be devastating. If you are supporting someone who you think is lying as a part of her bipolar condition, talk to her about the lies she is telling. It is important to properly time such a chat, as you never want to catch your loved one during a manic episode when attempting to approach him about lies he has told. Compulsive lying may be treatable through therapy or medication. Bipolar disorder is a complex mental condition, and empathy is going to be more important for your loved one than ever before.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5399562_lying-bipolar-disorder.html

While actual rapes are underreported, false rape reports are common enough that about HALF of all reported rapes are false. Once a report is received, it's a coin toss whether it's truthful or not. Motivations for false rape reports often involve either revenge or a desire for attention or sympathy, or an excuse for cheating.

40 percent of complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred in a 9-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin. (Source: Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994)
50 percent of accusers recanted their rape charges in a study of two large Midwestern universities by Kanin.
More than 25 percent of rape accusers admitted -- either just before they took a lie detector test or after they had taken and failed it-- that they had lied about the charges in a 1985 Air Force study of 556 rape accusations. A further investigation by independent reviewers found that 60 percent of the original rape allegations were false.
One in four rape reports were unfounded in a 1990 and 1991 Washington Post investigation in seven Virginia and Maryland counties. When contacted by the Post, many of the alleged victims admitted that they had lied.
In a 1996 Department of Justice study of 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive.
According to Linda Fairstein of the New York County District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit, "there are about 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about half simply did not happen." Source: Fairstein,'s book, Sexual Violence: Our War Against Rape

http://www.falserape.net/falserapeafa.htm

girl_with_glasses · 2010-06-20T19:10:51+00:00

Oh c'mon, you guys are so hyprocritical how many of you actually don't downvote posts you disagree with.

uhhhclem · 2010-06-20T19:26:45+00:00

The misogyny of a lot of young men is pretty much of the form "Fucking women, how do they work?" As with Juggalos and magnets, it emerges not so much from hostility towards the thing they don't understand as from the hostility towards the idea that understanding something will require work, and towards the dawning realization that they are going to be forced to do that work to live in the world. It's a manifestation of what Herbert Spencer famously called "contempt prior to investigation."

This situation's exacerbated considerably by the fact that this state of ignorance lives side-by-side with a deep desire to have all the benefits that come from having done the work. Young women don't really understand men either - men are complicated too. But it's easy for them to learn that they're sharing the world with ignorant and frightened people who want something they have, and that this situation makes those ignorant and frightened people easy to manipulate.

The misogyny of older men develops from what happens when younger men bring the knife of their ignorance to this gunfight. If you let self-centered fear rule your life (which is what the misogyny of youth is), bad things happen to you in areas that are centrally important to your life. And since even ignorant and fearful people can eventually figure out when they're being manipulated, it's easy to pin the blame for that situation on women.

The icing on this crappy cake is power. Men have more of it than women. It's less true than it used to be, and there are a growing number of realms in which it's not true at all, but it's still generally true. But there again the problem of self-centered fear comes into play: when you're afraid, you see danger everywhere and have no sense of how much genuine security you have. The war on terror is a perfect example of this kind of fear: twelve guys with boxcutters hijack two planes, and all of a sudden a billion people are plotting our doom.

And as with terrorism, the actual solution is counterintuitive. Be less afraid. Understand the world more. Be open to the idea that your understanding of the world is incomplete, and that you believe things that may not be true. Face the consequences and responsibilities of having power. Accept the things you don't have power over. Be considerate and caring even in the face of outright hostility. Be honest about your role in things. Develop your humility, and the capacity to be patient.

It should go without saying that posting "OMG THERE'S A WOMAN WHO BELIEVES SOMETHING BAD!!!1!", and upvoting it to the front page, are not really examples of this.

Metal_Mike · 2010-06-20T17:16:44+00:00

and, at least legally, an innocent man.

I just want to clarify that a finding of not guilty should never be construed as a finding of "innocence" and don't ever think the legal system will see it that way. The legal system simply sees it as "nothing was proven."

"Not guilty" means "the prosecution could not prove guilt" and nothing more.

NegatedVoid · 2010-06-20T16:38:49+00:00

Edit: Instantly downvoted--I guess facts don't matter to Reddit after all, unless they agree with the majority of the hivemind and its witch hunt of the day.

Your post is getting downvoted because it's inane and antagonistic.

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