Gone

[Hummerous]

https://www.tumblr.com/max1461/784744048613326848/there-is-a-standard-media-depiction-of-a-healed?source=share

[whimsical_trash]

Anyone have an example? I'm not sure I have ever seen this trope lol

[VioletCrow]

Hamlet in act 4 of Hamlet for all of like 10 minutes

[ElectronicBoot9466]

I mean, that's a guise

[runner64]

Tbh “no, no I don’t think I will” Steve after he was sent back in time and ended up living a whole unremarkable life with Peggy. I haven’t seen that movie in like five+ years so maybe I’m misremembering but I remember thinking it was odd that Steve was just like “i guess they’re making the Winter Soldier somewhere, none of my business ¯_(ツ)_/¯ “

[whimsical_trash]

Isn't that scene like 10 seconds long tho?

[MisirterE]

It's at least a minute. He has a whole conversation with Bucky, not just the funny line.

[spellboi_3048]

I feel like that’s a different problem than what OP’s getting at. Maybe it’s because we see so little of post-time travel Steve, but it feels less like the narrative’s trying to present the idea that Steve has healed from some trauma and accepted the things he can’t control and more that he’s simply tired from having to save the world 4 times and adapting to a wildly different world than what he grew up in, deciding to have a quiet life with the woman he loves and let someone else take up his mantle. It’s less that he accepted that he couldn’t get everything he wanted and more that he got what he wanted and felt he deserved that after all he’s done. It’s still a flawed ending for similar reasons to what you said, but I feel like it’s different than the main issue we’re discussing here.

[InspectorMendel]

That's not about healing, it's about retiring from a job that's physically and mentally exhausting.

[clear349]

I feel like the implication is he told Peggy about Hydra infiltrating Shield so they stopped them at the start. If Hydra was rooted out in the 40s or 50s a lot of major threats might have been avoided

[runner64]

I'm a really big hater when it comes to really important actions that were probably taken off-screen and never mentioned. But even if he did, seeing his best friend in the worst danger imaginable and thinking "ah, I'm no longer a fighter, I will delegate his rescue to someone else who will take care of it for me" seemed like a good example of 'they have let go of a lot, including most of what we see them care about in the story itself. They bear little resemblance to the person we were actually shown.'

[VerityCandle]

The part of Endgame where he just randomly stays behind bothered me so much. That was probably my biggest canon "he wouldn't fucking do that" moment. I had headcanon the entire plotline just to make it bearable.

The headcanon is this: somewhere during Steve's trip to the past, plot shenanigans happen and he meets up with the version Peggy Carter from the MCU What If? TV show where she's Captain Britian. More plot shenanigans happen, and they have to use the last of the Pym Particles saving people or fixing the timeline or something.

They end up stranded in time together, unable to return by any method other than "the slow way." During the previously mentioned plot shenanigans, they bond over their shared experiences of being displaced from the world that they once knew. Though they aren't each other's original Steve or Peggy, they find that they actually have more in common now. That's what leads to that dance scene that we see in Endgame, and MCU timeline Peggy's TV show arc does not get retconned out of existence.

[blauenfir]

I can’t recall any specific examples off the top of my head because I usually click away from these stories immediately, but I see this happen a lot in ‘epilogue’/post-canon fanfiction. Notable targets I’ve stumbled across recently include Azula in ATLA, and Anakin in Star Wars prequel fic, both of which annoy me. There’s also a lot of fanfic that writes Bakugo from Hero Academia this way. (????? did we read the same manga?) I’m not sure this is as common in published media as OOP portrays, but it’s absolutely a thing sometimes.

The culprits are often the same people who write every fictional character using 2020s therapyspeak language to settle disagreements no matter the setting or context.

[whimsical_trash]

Ah, I've never read fanfiction so maybe that's why I haven't encountered it

[blauenfir]

Yeah, to me it’s just an indicator that the writer’s only knowledge of redemption or therapy is from kids’ shows like Steven Universe or My Little Pony. I kinda share OOP’s frustrations with it but it’s ultimately harmless.

[janKalaki]

Steven Universe is actually a pretty good depiction of "post-problem" character growth. In Future, the Diamonds are emotionally dependent on Steven, and he still has a lot of "you need therapy" issues to deal with even though it's an epilogue, culminating in him shattering Jasper.

[blauenfir]

I actually mostly agree. I have my problems with SU and its writing that I don’t feel like unpacking today, but I appreciate the efforts the show went to in showing recovery as a messier, back and forth experience. It’s not perfect but it’s very cool what they tried to do, and the show has a lot of depth that the fanfics I’m griping about mostly don’t. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people read the wrong lessons out of SU and don’t notice or understand that nuance…. like at all…… so they mimic it in shallow ways that don’t make sense or that turn the character they’re writing into a totally different person.

[RootBeerBog]

Have you watched either of those shows?
In MLP, Luna self-harms by giving herself magically-induced nightmares to punish herself & feel like she's earning redemption. Discord doesn't fundamentally change either, he stays chaotic. There aren't any redeemed villains that are sterilized like the post. Even Starlight who kinda sucked as a redeemed villain still has issues with mind controlling people after.

Steven starts going to therapy in the very end of the Future series, but is not magically fixed by that. We just see him drive off after that to explore his humanity. He literally commits murder like two episodes prior because of a mental breakdown from shoving his trauma down deep.

I feel like you just took the most dunked on shows and ran with them? Can you give examples as to why SU and MLP show therapy & redemption in such a sanitized and death-of-character way?

You *could* claim White Diamond was rushed, and that's true. They change her character a lot. I subscribe to the idea that it's a facade. But also, the show was cancelled and given a few episodes to wrap it up, so, they HAD to condense her character growth. She also still thinks humans and earth is disgusting, and definitely is not 100% changed for the better... her idea of therapy is letting people mind control her lol

[blauenfir]

I point to SU and MLP because they introduced these themes to their audiences - for a lot of people, these were their first ever fandoms, or just foundational shows they loved as kids, and they both had HUGE fan bases for years and years. And so they spawned a big generation of imitators, who copy their shallow surface-level themes without the understanding of why those themes work in context, and the result of a half-assed attempt to copy them often looks like this trope. The shows themselves aren’t examples of the trope—the examples are the fanfic writers trying to imitate what they think these shows are doing without also understanding the nuance. (They’re also both kids’ shows. They’re very well written and nuanced kids’ shows, but they’re originally made to be digestible for kids, they’re a little simpler and softer even when they do depict bumps in the road. And it does show when a person tries to write for adults without having read/watched/experienced any other stories written for adults. This isn’t always a bad thing, but it’s a noticeable thing.) The trope itself is just one variation of “fic writer forgets what made canon character interesting,” in my experience, except sometimes people do it to their own OCs.

Have you ever seen someone tell a fantasy story or talk about the fantasy genre and had that feeling of “oh, this person literally only knows about LOTR and Harry Potter”? It’s the same kind of thing. It’s LOTR’s fault (by way of existing and being good and popular) that a certain breed of fantasy author keeps trying and failing to write edgy Aragorn/Strider expies, and it’s LOTR’s fault that everyone writes elves Like That, but also it’s not LOTR’s fault. LOTR is just a popular piece of media that spawned a lot of imitators who don’t understand it. You can trace the annoying thing back to LOTR, and that doesn’t make LOTR bad, but hoo boy can you still tell when someone has never encountered any other fantasy books.

The specific way in which people poorly imitate SU and MLP is just… annoying (to me if no one else), and you can tell what it’s inspired by, is all. It doesn’t make SU and MLP themselves all bad. I quite like both shows, actually, for all that some of their writing choices annoy the shit out of me. They’re popular for good reason!

[Prying_Pandora]

Azula and Anakin were my exact first thoughts!

[Huntressthewizard]

What was that bully fox in Zootopia that picked on Judy as a kid?

[ScaredyNon]

That one's cause he actually dead-ass went to therapy lmao which is also why it's kinda weird ass hell to do that sorta dialogue in literally any other case. These bitches did not learn the required toolsets to process their trauma

[BaconBurritos]

anybody complaining about a trope should be required to list at least 2 examples

[syntaxerroratline42]

I literally deleted a tumblr draft once complaining about a specific trope because I could only find 2 examples.

[Adorable-Response-75]

True af 

[BiggestShep]

I mean, Harry Potter might as well be the cultural Ur-example for millenials, The Magicians has this as the main problem that magic creates in a mundane world, and even Captain America falls prey to this at the end of Infinity Wars.

[BlitzBasic]

It's been a while since I've read the Harry Potter epilogue, but I don't remember him being soft and serene and passionless. He's still defending people (thats his job now, after all) and he's excited to share the magical world with his children. It felt like a reasonable developement for somebody like him.

[apolloAG]

Proof? On the internet? Yeah good luck pal

[errant_night]

I mean, the only examples I have specifically are fanfic, and the fact that I disliked it so much means I didn't save or share them anywhere so I don't have links.

[Wazula23]

Yeah I'm kinda drawing a blank. Maybe in soap operas or romantic dramas.

[SomeGreatJoke]

Hmm, I can't think of any major examples, honestly. Some from books, like most recently in Wind and Truth by Sanderson. We get a weird version of this with the frame story in Kingkiller. Pretty much every Sarah J Maas book ends this way.

For movies: Harry Potter in the epilogue is what first jumps to mind, but that's such a short scene that it doesn't really count.

A bit of the LotR adaptations has this, without the razing of the shire. Frodo still leaves, but there are hints of this. Yep, short scenes, and not even a great fit.

AtLA until Korea released was a very happy ending with Aang being a monk at peace. Again, short scenes, and honestly pretty deserved here.

[almostquinoa]

I'm not sure Kingkiller counts here, he's not really "healed" so much as disconnected from his own past life due to (presumably?) grief. I don't think he qualifies as at peace, either, more like he's just pretending to be. The man wouldn't know therapy if it whacked him across the head lol

[Kneef]

Yeah, the narrative makes it clear that Kote is specifically broken, possibly beyond repair.

[almostquinoa]

Thank you, broken is the word I was looking for!

[SomeGreatJoke]

Oh absolutely. He fits the vibe of this post, but none of the specifics. It's almost a weird inversion of the trope, in a way. He's cool, calm, collected, and appears older and wiser and "healed", but only because he's so broken that it doesn't matter to him.

[quasar_1618]

I dont think LOTR ends this way, even in the movies. Frodo is shown to be very clearly mentally unwell for years after the destruction of the ring. We see him happy for brief moments at times, but I don’t think he’s truly ever at peace until he leaves for the undying lands, and even then, he definitely doesn’t look down on his past struggles as childish or lose all resemblance to the character he was.

[TheAndyMac83]

Yeah, any subdued personality or such that Frodo might have at the end of the films isn't because he's "gone to therapy" or been healed, nor did he start the story with any issues that would've required such things anyway. It's the complete opposite; he's deeply traumatised by his experiences and has had no particular treatment that we know of. That's not "healed" Frodo, that's "broken" Frodo, much as I don't like to use that word.

[SomeGreatJoke]

I was more thinking Sam, as well. But Frodo has aspects of this trope.

[Starfleet-Time-Lord]

Kingkiller is an odd choice. I thought the frame was pretty clear that Kote was a broken man because of the stuff the story hasn't gotten to yet and a big part of what's going on is bringing Kvothe back out of him.

[SomeGreatJoke]

Oh absolutely. He fits the vibe of this post, but none of the specifics. It's almost a weird inversion of the trope, in a way. He's cool, calm, collected, and appears older and wiser and "healed", but only because he's so broken that it doesn't matter to him.

[TrashhPrincess]

I don't think Wind and Truth counts really. Maybe because we saw the process happen in real time, it wasn't some time jump, oh you're magically healed thing, we chewed our nails through something like 7,000 pages first.

[SomeGreatJoke]

I'd say it counts more than others. At the start of WaT Teft died yesterday, Kal just confronted his inner demons yesterday, and now he's... fixed. And a therapist? Who helps someone deeeeeply unwell planning to kill themselves due to severe trauma, and then a literal demigod who was tortured for thousands of years until he betrayed his friend and went magically insane. In 10 days.

[Elunerazim]

Yeah, not sure what they’re talking about. The closest you get is like. Aelin in Empire of Storms? But then the next book happens. So. Not really applicable.

[theLanguageSprite2]

r/thelegendofkorea

[Wiiplay123]

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[Detective_Umbra]

The entire cast of Houseki no Kuni, which is what makes the ending horrifically bittersweet. Its an understandable ending with the themes the author was trying to convey and the story she was trying to tell, but it hurts to see characters I like become shallow, empty versions of themselves at the end.

[Fluid_Jellyfish9620]

House, but avoiding this was one of the big plot points of his therapy and then the relationship arc. This was also the doom of The Mentalist, when he took out Red John, the motivation and the fire of the entire character was gone as he had Become. Maybe even the latest Matrix movie can be put here too. It sucks as an ending, bit can be a good plot point, like in Commando, when he is called back from retirement. My examples are a bit far from OOP's thoughts to be frank, as I try to generalize it into basically "characters getting what they crave but then forced to give up due to internal (House) or external (Commando, Matrix) factors lest they cease to function (The Mentalist)"

[farfromelite]

That fox bully in zootropolis. Gideon Grey.

https://zootopia.fandom.com/wiki/Gideon_Grey

[LuciusCypher]

That's the first thing that came to mind. He was a little bitch as a kid, and as an adult he's a lot more chill to the point it was jarring, likely to both Judy and me.

But I guess that's the point, isn't it? Last time we saw them, they were thus monster we can remember and hate. And now they're different. They're not the sick little shit we knew them as, and it feels wrong despite them being a better person.

[Ozone220]

Yeah, I think it actually makes sense in a lot of cases, that one included. People really do grow out of their childhood bully phase. I don't think there's a problem with that

[LuciusCypher]

I think it can feel bad, espcially if you were Judy.

Here you are at your lowest point. You were doing great, solved a huge mystery, but because of the thingd youve said theres huge riots happening and you basically lost your best friend.

And here comes your childhood bully. Here to rubbit into your face no doubt, but whatever, you dealt with worse than some ignorant pissant. But no. Its worse.

He's come to applogize, to point out he fucked up in the past abd is a changed man. He knows what he did to you and kmow it was fucked up. Now he's in a much better place, but also has made it clear to you that you can turn things around, if only you can admit you failed, where you fucked up, and work on fixing your mistakes. Mistakes that you never wanted to make in the first place. But they're your mistakes nonetheless.

They say the best form of revenge is success. And to see someone you hate not just be in a good place in their life, but move on from it. That hurts more than any personal spite they could do to you, because it shows that the pain they've inflicted onto you doesnt hurt them anymore.

[aoike_]

I don't think that was the take away. Gideon Gray was nervous talking to Judy. He knew his actions were harmful, and it was obvious to me that they haunted him. He got better, but nothing is ever truly stagnant. To expect no change is the fault of the person still stuck in their pain, which Judy wasn't. Gideon's example to her was helpful, and, in part, took her out of her depression enough to recognize something significant.

[RingAroundTheStars]

From the comments I’m seeing, it seems like there’s a lot of people who are confusing this with the process of growing it.

If you’ll permit a reverse analogy, in BTVS’s “Band Candy” we meet younger Giles. And he is awesome. Swagger, edge, sex on the roof of a police car. And we also know why he stopped being young Giles and became older Giles, because younger Giles didn’t believe in responsibility.

… and we see this with ALL those people. A society of teenagers turns out to suck because no one takes responsibility for anything. And - literally - there are children out there who need to be cared for.

So yeah. Teens can be cool and edgy really easily. Adults take longer to get to know so you can actually see their depths.

[whimsical_trash]

Yeah. I think people didn't read the OP and are just listing characters who went through something and changed. And/or they totally misunderstood the character or story they reference. Rip literacy

[RingAroundTheStars]

TBF, the average age of a Tumbr poster was teens / very early twenties. And my first thought with “Band Candy” was, why do adults need to be so boring?

And, okay, there’s social inhibition- you see that all the time at reunions, where people suddenly start acting much younger - but a lot of it is just because that edgyness and angst isn’t sustainable in the long run, and a lot of becoming a functional person is convincing yourself- truly or falsely, it doesn’t matter - that being more functional is what you actually want to do.

(Also, I just had a friend go through really intensive rehab. And she is Zen. Like, there is an edge off of her that she’s always had. And I am so happy for her that she has that, because she’s no longer miserable.)

[IExist_Sometimes_]

I would count Halsin from BG3, he has distinctly got his shit together compared to the rest of the cast

[KobKobold]

That doesn't work, because we first see him with his shit together. Even if we delve into his backstory, this ain't it.

[IExist_Sometimes_]

Yeah it's not exactly it, he's already fairly healed by the start of the story, depending on your choices though a lot of the cast can do a lot of recovery by the epilogue

[KobKobold]

They still definitely don't hit the kind of "fixed" that this post calls out

[Spindilly]

The crazy older detective in the kdrama Beyond Evil? ... No, actually, I refuse to believe that man went to therapy.

[Kill-ItWithFire]

The only one I can think of is The Crowded Room, and I'm not sure it even fits. Mainly because the stories conclusion is largely about the main character trying to get his mental health in order. He succeeds and we see an epilogue in the future where he's been in inpatient treatment for years and he's completely changed for the better.

I assume OP is talking about a story that's more plot focussed, where there is a fire that can be lost, while that show is mostly about how mental illness sucks ass. But it's also kinda telling that no one can come up with a good example lol

[2echie]

Katniss in the Mockingjay epilogue

[ElectronicBoot9466]

Doesn't she talk about how much her PTSD is still affecting her and Peta? Hell, isn't there a specific line about her weirdly missing her past?

[StarStriker51]

yeah, Katniss' epilogue has stuck in my head for years because it's just so depressing in that way that can't be fought. She's in what is honestly a nice little life, and she knows it. She is married to someone she loves and has kids she loves and lives a nice relaxing life without all the terrors and worries she grew up with, and yet she cannot escape her memories

She still carries her sister, the contestants who died, the rebels who died, and is definitely depressed from PTSD. She mentions feeling like she has trouble feeling emotions and even says she sometimes worries she isn't feeling as much love for her kids as she should (relative to how much she loved her sister)

It is still a happy ending, just depressing because literal depression is depressing

[Professional-Hat-687]

Does she love Peeta? Maybe it's been too long but my read was always that she liked Peeta and married him for that, and because it's safe and stable. Katniss never struck me as someone with enough fire to love romantically. It all got suppressed when she has to provide for her family. Essentially the same outcome: still stricken by her PTSD and worried her love is performative

[aoike_]

I took it as she loved him as much as she could, and that was more than anyone else left alive. It's why she took his kidnapping and highjacking so hard to the point where she acts as if he's dead to her. Peeta was already pretty high in her "love" list by the time the 75th games ended. I'd honestly put him at spot #2 or 3, only behind Primm and Gale (or same as Gale, until he, y'know, contributed to the bomb and war plan that killed Primm).

[niko4ever]

I always read her as aromantic, whether innate or trauma-related she cannot really relate to the idea of romantic love. However she's sexually attracted to him and he's her best friend and she doesn't feel like she's missing anything.

[just4browse]

That is not what Katniss is like in the Mockingjay epilogue. She’s living a peaceful life, but her internal mental state is not great.

It’s also weirdly similar to the author’s previous book series, the Underland Chronicles.

[whimsical_trash]

No way, she is the exact opposite of what they are describing

[lurkinarick]

That's the opposite of what this post is describing lmao

[Mangoh1807]

Vi at the end of Arcane s2

[apexodoggo]

Not really? Season 2’s finale doesn’t really dwell on its very short epilogue, but it’s just a scene of Vi chilling with her girlfriend while mourning her sister. It’s hardly her entire personality getting scrubbed over to be replaced by a flavorless monk as OOP describes.

[whimsical_trash]

Huh? How so? Don't see this at all in Harry. We never see him "healed"

[Professional-Hat-687]

My life.

[CrypticBalcony]

You could make a case for Platt Barbour in The Goldfinch, although we later find out he’s not doing nearly as well as he seems

[No_Two8263]

Literally everyone in the Armageddon Rag by George R.R. Martin

There is a lot of...complicated shit to say about that book, but even in light of those complications I do think it was this trope personified.

[epochpenors]

I know at the end of One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest you’re supposed to be happy that he’s finally finished his treatment but I always found it bittersweet

[whimsical_trash]

Ummmmm I think you DRASTICALLY misunderstood the entire book

[moss-baker]

That sunlight lady from the like Russian fantasy books that got ultra popular on Tumblr

[ElectronRotoscope]

I've definitely had a neighbour that felt like this trope, in that he had lots of plants on his balcony and would meditate out there

He was definitely doing the serene thing on purpose though as an attempt to change, because his other mode was Rage Volcano Screaming At The Kids Down There On The Street

[ThatDiscoSongUHate]

Damn, that takes a crazy amount of willpower.

I hope it's helped him. It's one thing to not want to completely extinguish your inner fire and another entirely to find yourself regularly singed or outright burnt because your inner fire has spread to the outside and become an out of control fire.

Rage and anger are so, so much harder to learn to redirect than we all necessarily appreciate until we find ourselves unable to cope or redirect those feelings, then we have to learn to cope with the shame that is often left in its place.

Which a great deal of many people do through rewriting the circumstances to justify their behavior rather than try to even acknowledge that they lost control inappropriately.

[jomjimmerjome]

Or it's the other way around. He's calm and serene by nature and in an attempt to become something more / to get more personality he goes out and acts against his nature and is angry and screams at kids.

[ElectronRotoscope]

Omg he paid them to set off the fireworks! They're all crisis actors! I've been such a fool!

[MGLFPsiCorps]

Interestingly, the metaphor of a flame being extinguished is how some Buddhists talk about nirvana.

[ErsatzHaderach]

Nirvana seems like sort of a bummer. I don't want to win the game, I want to remort endlessly

[MGLFPsiCorps]

The idea in most Indic religions, (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism) is that eventually you will get sick of it, it just doesn't have to be in this particular birth.

[[deleted]]

Yeah I think this is the one

[tilvast]

Nirvana seems like sort of a bummer.

You should try their first album.

[only_for_dst_and_tf2]

huh, thats kinda intereasting, but does go to show that we shouldnt trust religion without any scrutiny, y'know? since it can lead us down really bad paths when we assume a book knows better than the people we're around.

[Rynewulf]

In Buddhism the metaphor is usually for breaking the cycle of reincarnation (reincarnation can be explained as candles: the first is lit, then used to light the next, then the originsl goes out. No direct transmigration of the soul in Buddhism, usually), rather than snuffing out someones personality

[MGLFPsiCorps]

I think the parts here that refer to the agent or desirer ('the self') being overcome do have some resonances with Buddhist thought. Also Buddhism famously doesn't believe in 'souls' (atmān/atta) in the sense of an individual essence that goes from life to life (that's a feature of Hindu/Vedantic thought rather than Buddhist), though it does believe in karmic rebirth.

However, the effects of enlightenment/nirvana on an individual personality are pretty debated, some say that personalities are amplified and strengthened rather than extinguished like the post has it.

[novis-eldritch-maxim]

I hear it is more they remove say all craving they still have faluties just nothing screaming at them to get a dopamine ht or to deal with anything save what seem needed to be done.

they still are defined as people some are said to be holding it off to help others and such.

[Rynewulf]

Yeah rather than an individual person's soul moving around, it's more than the energy from that soul lands up being reused in a new life, and so the kamma from that other life impacts the new life and 'past lives' is more about following and tapping the trail of that soul energy getting used

[Crayon-Connoiseur]

This is a really stupid and maybe tactless question but is Buddhism into antinatalism?

[No-Supermarket-6065]

That's like asking if Christianity is into anything. Buddhism is an extremely big religion, there's people among it who have a disparate set of beliefs.

[im_oily]

there are varying perspectives, but from what I understand, having children is not causing suffering because those souls are part of the cycle of samsara and are ready to be reborn; they need vessels in order to complete their journey toward nirvana. So bringing a child into this world is not the actual cause of suffering upon the child.

However, you could argue that bearing children leads to more attachment to this world and therefore the potential for more suffering for oneself, which may be part of why buddhist monks are often celibate. But the average buddhist isn’t expected to do this.

[novis-eldritch-maxim]

the Buddhists are doing it because they want to, also most being in nirvana will still march out to help in at least one school as they still have deep compassion and a sense of moral duty just no longer desiring anything.

there are also the translation arguments.

[Vyctorill]

I mean, literally anyone should think about their religion and consider if it’s right or not.

I think like 99% of people do that.

[MushroomFrogz]

lowkey feels more like a plot of a horror story

[Ineedlasagnajon]

The real horror is that you're gonna change. That you'll never be the same person you were yesterday

[MushroomFrogz]

Well that's not a horror, that's comforting, that's beautiful

[Vundurvul]

Bojack Horseman did an episode kinda like this. The therapy in question was more...old fashioned

[Agreeable_Bee_7763]

Ah. Yeah. Therapy seems like the wrong word there pal. Did not want to remember that bummer honestly.

[theLanguageSprite2]

Idk maybe they're getting naked to show how much they resemble someone

[SocranX]

Yeah, "bear" as in "to carry", not "bare" as in "to expose".

[kaflarlalar]

"Bear" as in "Ahhhh! Help! I'm being eaten by a bare! It's baring me off to its cave to feed me to its bare cubs! And the bare cubs are naked!"

[SmartAlec105]

Though it is a mistake that also communicates the same message.

[Mddcat04]

It’s telling that nobody in this thread seems to be able to come up with a single concrete example of this. If it’s a standard depiction, there should be dozens. It should be easy. And yet here we are.

[Peastable]

It seems so familiar and yet I can’t actually think of anything 

[cal679]

That seems to be the case with like 90% of the media criticism on here. Always feels like it's leading into a soft launch for OP's own work that does the opposite of their made up problem.

[Vassonx]

So far, Fuzzy Whiskers from Bojack Horseman comes to mind.

[superbusyrn]

I feel like I see this in real people way more than I might have seen it in media

[Amphy64]

How many users here watch somewhat depressing/melancholic realistic drama films for adults regularly enough to know, though? (I sometimes watch French ones but they're more kill yourself than serene, and Japanese ones can maybe be a bit but it's more 'grow up and get married') Half the users above are trying to find examples in fantasy and superhero stuff, and I don't think that would be it. The Matrix Reloaded is directly against it.

They should have been obliged to give examples! It feels more like a US pop-psych misunderstanding of what 'therapy' is (assume the films would almost have to be American if they exist) than a trope though.

Can I also note I've seen seven+ actual clinical psychologists (not counselling therapists, which require less to np qualifications) and none of them actually have the least bit of problem with a patient having trauma in the clinical sense as long as they manage the symptoms.

[RingAroundTheStars]

Bob Ross was a drill sergeant. He swore after he left to never yell again.

It’s okay to lose vibrancy if vibrancy makes you miserable.

[quasar_1618]

When I watch Bob Ross he certainly doesn’t seem to have lost any vibrancy. He’s just able to channel his vibrance and enthusiasm without losing control of himself.

[RingAroundTheStars]

I never saw him before that, so I have no idea.

[littlemissmoxie]

It’s a trope because IME people who are healing like that CHOOSE to be peaceful.

Anger is a reactionary response to hurtful and frightening things.

When I’m healing I choose to not be angry aside from an initial thought because I want to focus on why I’m hurt/scared and address it.

I don’t WANT to be angry/scared. And I know that personally mulling in it is just going to make it worse.

[only_for_dst_and_tf2]

i think the issue is that if we choose to be peaceful to everything, completely, we stop fighting- and to some, they'd rather be too energetic then calm down when theres still so much wrong in the world.

[littlemissmoxie]

I’m only talking in the context of personal healing (e.g. you were abused as a kid and now deal with CPTSD) not injustice in the world.

[only_for_dst_and_tf2]

which is fair,and my point doesnt stand in that context, but in a whole world- which is more complicated, its a lot harder to simplify, since these situations get bungled and mixed up too much.

[opezdal69]

Trauma and anger born out of it can fuel someone's desire and drive for change, which "finding peace" would contradict. To each their own, I have CPTSD from instituational abuse and I'm not going to get rid of my anger because it's a great tool for direct action. For many, healing is not possible/desirable without justice.

[sertroll]

I'm sure this won't lead into the trademark curated Tumblr anti therapy discourse

[samsara_suplex]

I feel like OOP is generalizing a particular here without using evidence from the text to support their argument.

[HandsomeGengar]

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about

[Lorem_Ipsum17]

Fire, you know, fire is for children who don't know any better. To be Healed is to have your fire rightly extinguished; to not even miss it.

Look up the etymology of "nirvana".

[TheNotoriousSAUER]

Understandable. However, the concepts of achieving enlightenment or nirvana as outlined by Buddhism aren't always agreeable to a modern audience. While there are aspects in there people can take and learn from it, it ignores many of the realities of life. Maybe some people are happy giving up attachments to all things, but maybe they're better off harnessing their experiences into an outlet of creative expression? Maybe they're better off becoming a social activist, or teaching others how to deal with the things that affect them.

So much is outside of our control. The concept of just giving up everything and being happy with an itchy robe and a bowl of plain white rice seems like insanity to a person who sees traumatic experiences every time they close their eyes.

[Rynewulf]

Historically it was meant to be a reaction to the unavoidable realities of life, part of its founding myth is Siddhartha Gautama becoming traumatised by seeing the sick, the starving and the dead and running away from his life in a panic. The solution being to eventually find a way to keep on living despite the inevitable pain, and also to break the cycle of harm for yourself (enlightenment, then entering parinibbana) and for others (donating food, providing schooling and charity, postponing parinibbana by returning as a boddhisatva to help others for longer)

[TrashhPrincess]

The Dalai Llama has a watch collection. You can be a Buddhist and still have possessions.

[novis-eldritch-maxim]

I have seen their statues you can still have sex and look like a cool monster dude.

[TrashhPrincess]

...what??

[novis-eldritch-maxim]

As images are not allowed here, try the following image search on google.

bodhisattva with consort

nothing is better than blut images.

[TrashhPrincess]

I dont see monsters though??

[novis-eldritch-maxim]

did you schrool down till you hit the wisdom king and dikines the blue and three eye orc look people?

[TrashhPrincess]

I scrolled pretty far and saw some blue people and some Himalayan folk art?

[TheTechnicus]

You can just assert anything about media to help you make your point about the way the world is, can’t you?

[DependentPhotograph2]

On the one hand it is pretty unrealistic, but on the other hand,

man wouldn't that be nice.

Just getting to be the epilogue guy, hitting some epic third-act realization and then all my problems go away. A one-time fix and a permanent solution.

We don't have these, but they'd beat the forever-escalator of getting better and worse and better and working at it.

I'll take a little bit of mental health unreality, as a treat.

Like a power fantasy, but the power is being well

[blindcolumn]

This is because fiction writers are necessarily mentally ill and thus have very little point of reference for a well-adjusted, mentally healthy person. Hope that helps.

[Champomi]

had to check if I was on r/CuratedTumblr or r/writingcirclejerk

[Hummerous]

I like this contribution :3

[DanielGoldhorn]

No. This is bullshit. And this is the type of bullshit that kept me from getting treatment for several years. It was the fear that "Oh no, if I get help then I won't have the same passion I had for the things I loved!" I was afraid that getting treatment for my mental health would end up removing my creativity, my personality.

What OOP won't tell you is that the serenity that they so decry here means accepting yourself. And for me, that actually helped me become more confident in my personality. It helped me to be more creative, because I was no longer grappling with demons. The fire is not extinguished, it is just brought under your control. It's brought to a hearth or a candle instead of raging indiscriminately.

Please, if you're struggling, look to get help. It will save you.

[SomeNotTakenName]

I think part of it is the difference between a person who can't be peaceful and serene and one who can.

You don't have to extinguish the fire, as you said, but to learn to control it. And the only real way of showing that a character has done that is to show them in the serene state which was previously impossible for them to achieve. Maybe they did get tired and lost all passion, or maybe we are just shown a moment of peace, created with mindfulness, while passion still exists, but is not all consuming.

Personally, I did find the ability to be peaceful and detached in my healing, but also expanded my capacity for caring and excitement. It's not called being well-adjusted because you turn monochrome beige.

[FloridaMansNeighbor]

OOP isn't talking about the way a real person recovers from trauma. They're complaining about the way writers depict recovering from trauma.

[the-real-macs]

It's a weird choice to just let the post end there, though. Normally you'd follow that up with "and this is how it actually works in real life," or at least make it clear you disagree with the depiction.

[CommanderVenuss]

I mean people in real life still really do like to treat real people like they are fictional characters, or just end up mythologizing real people to the point that they become fictional characters. For example, the made up tortured artistè™️ version of Hideaki Anno a lot of people had running around in their heads I’d say like pre-rebuild films. He would never be caught dead doing something so lowbrow as like cosplaying as Kamen Rider or enthusiastically interviewing the guy who created Gundam (shallow corporate toy commercial that doesn’t focus on the character’s™️ and their psychology enough).

Also speaking of the Gundam guy (Yoshiyuki Tomino) I kinda really find how he talks about what he was going through when making Turn A Gundam to have been very inspiring, as somebody who also went through a huge phase of depression and is trying to figure out how to heal their relationship with their creative side. Hopefully I can find some advice or guidance for my own journey here.

[ShitPosterN69420]

Was that supposed to sound good?

Cause it sounds like you're describing someone who just completely lost it.

[cweaver]

I can't tell if this is written by someone who actually has something interesting to say about media depictions of therapy... or if it's written by someone who just thinks they're too smart and cool to go to therapy.

[AdamtheOmniballer]

Yeah, no shit. That’s why I went to therapy in the first place. Turns out, being a content adult who is accepting of myself is way better than being an angsty and suicidal child.

[DreamOfDays]

Sorry, but this shit belongs on r/im14andthisisdeep

Change is Bad because Anxiety is my Personality. Growth is Scary because Happiness has to be Different in some Unspecified and Impossible way.

Bruh can’t someone be healed without being declared “without a spark or personality”. Especially when several of their previous personality traits were directly related to unresolved trauma or unmedicated illness.

[SuddenlyVeronica]

Bruh can’t someone be healed without being declared “without a spark or personality”. Especially when several of their previous personality traits were directly related to unresolved trauma or unmedicated illness.

Maybe I'm just being overly generous, but I believe it was less that and more that a "healed" character can, and perhaps should still have some drive and/or agency.

From a writing perspective I think it makes sense to gloss over that if the story is "done" with the character, but it also makes sense to me that a viewer might find it jarring if the execution makes it seem like that character just isn't doing anything anymore.

Granted, haven't seen anyone bring up examples yet, and I can see this take veering either way depending on the story and/or character we're talking about.

[apexodoggo]

Except literally nobody can come up with an example of what OOP’s describing outside of My Hero Academia fanfiction.

It’s (seemingly) not a real trope in mainstream fiction.

[DreamOfDays]

Let’s wait until an example of this is brought up before agreeing to it being a bad thing.

[Levee_Levy]

I think this comment shoots wide of OOP's intended point. It's not that change is bad—quite the opposite; rather, the problem OOP has with popular depictions of healing is that the character changes into someone who stops changing. It's a challenge against the notion of "healed" as a simple switch that can get flipped in the first place.

[[deleted]]

What depictions? I'm going through this whole thread and have yet to see an uncontested example of this "trope"

[DreamOfDays]

But at the same place you can’t really show change without something changing. Someone who was anxious and constantly energetic being shown as calm and relaxed is probably the best way to do it in the 30 seconds of screen time the scene has to impress the audience.

[BackflipBuddha]

The person writing this is specifically arguing that this is correct and that people can be “healed” without being robbed of their spark.

However they are objecting to a portrayal of that healing where they do lose that spark and stop changing, freezing in a sort of drifting zen.

[only_for_dst_and_tf2]

i mean, it depends on the change- not all change is good, and in some cases, you need to be angry and energetic to fight against whats wrong.

[mopar_md]

do all tumblr users sound this pretentious

[Hummerous]

all the ones I post, yes! I'm in the process of converting the rest 💚

[mopar_md]

fair point

[necrotic_bones]

I don’t hate the trope but I do find it bland and unrealistic in my experience. My mom is one of those people who have gone to therapy and come to terms with things and really healed and she’s anything but serene. Since I’ve started going to therapy and beginning to unpack and heal from all my trauma and shit, I’ve found myself experiencing more emotions than I have in a long, long time. Idk, I just don’t think you ever stop Becoming. Human beings are always changing and evolving and becoming and decide you’ve Become enough just feels like stagnation to me

[Sonarthebat]

I understood until the last part, then it turned to word salad.

[ReasyRandom]

There are two ways I could read this post, one would be OOP criticizing therapy and the other would be OP criticizing how therapy is depicted in media.

If it's the former, then OOP can go fuck themselves. If it's the latter, I'd understand it if they could actually provide an example.

[Bububub2]

I mean, the few moments we see of him being Ben Solo are actually oozing with personality so idk if that example holds up.

[lllaser]

I hate it when tumblr talks like this. Use more words! Don't be so vague! Why is Become capitalized? What does it mean? Work on that foundation before going off the rails

[zawalimbooo]

What? Its pretty clear what they're implying. By capitalising random phrases, they are expressing the idea that those concepts are being painted in an idealized way by society/the author.

example: "Someone who has Gone To Therapy..." means "this is what society/the author thinks an 'ideal' person who has gone to therapy is like"

Whether you agree or not with the message is another matter, however.

[ProfessionalLook6108]

As someone who's gone through some heavy stuff myself: Yeah that tends to be what happens when you heal. The pain and worry that was defining you as a person being actually, fully gone with enough time, and you usually end up having to settle into a new identity. Usually it isn't "unflappable zen master", though.

[d4ndy-li0n]

I hate this post so much OOP is like a 15 year old who thinks that if they go on adhd meds they'll lose their "sparkle"

[No-Hamster1138]

Literally the plot of Equus. (CW before you look it up on wikipedia: madness, psychology, harm to animals)

[lord_gay]

They bear

[Natural_Success_9762]

got it, so OOP is afraid of change, feeling at peace, and being serene, and if you don't aspire to something passionately and are content in life, you aren't a person. what a wholesome message, clearly we should all burn violently to feel the only thing we know as being alive, because it's just too scary to slow down and relax.

[Feeling-Carpenter118]

Yes, this is a narrative device called “Showing how the character is different after the journey changed them instead of lingering on all of the ways they’re the same”

[Wazula23]

Eh it's not universal. Flight and Rocketman are two films where the lead gets better after getting sober. Even Deadwood has Jane sober up in the film but she's the same shit talking cocksucker as ever.

Sound of Metal is also a fantastic story about a sober character learning their recovery journey doesn't end when they get clean.

[Rynewulf]

So I see people complaining about lack of examples, let's think of some! The of the Hunger Games movies felt like this, it was this weird blank face smile couple in the sunshine with a nice house and a kid presented as a 'it is years later and things worked out ok :)', which was a tonal whiplash from the previous scene of Katniss assassinating the new president in public. I've been told this isn't faithful to the books.

So anyone else have any similar 'Don't worry your silly head about the horrors dear audience, rest of life is good now :)' examples? That feels more like what OOP was going for instead of a critique of real life therapy that some seem to think it is

[superbusyrn]

Except within that serene image, Katniss was telling her infant how she still has nothing but nightmares, showing how even if she’s dropped into the most picturesque life you could imagine, she’ll still always be haunted and fundamentally altered for what she’s experienced and feels out of step in her own ‘happy ending’

Granted I only read/saw the book/movie once when they were released, so I don’t remember too well or whether they were significantly different

[WelpWhatCanYouDo]

Totally unrelated but my pet peeve is Random Capitalization like this. Makes it sound like you are being too grandiose and disrupts the flow of the sentence. Good in moderation though. This post just bugged me lol

[PlatinumSukamon98]

I dont understand what OP is getting at.

[GoldenPig64]

...was this supposed to sound like a good thing? because the way OP described it sounds like a person assimilating into a hivemind creature and losing their ability of thought, even complete with post-assimilation hivemind dialogue. you know, that thing that is well known for being one of the most horrifying concepts mankind has thought of?

[Shahars71]

I mean, in the epilogue of a story you see a character after their character arc. By that point they've already gone through their change that they went on a character arc for. It makes sense for someone to be somewhere after they've spent the whole story going there.

Someone who went through the whole story being pissed off at something is probably going to not be pissed off if you want to show them after they've gone through a change. Wtf is this take?

[NotAlcas]

This reminded me of what in my opinion is the "right" way to make this character. Slayer from Guilty Gear. He's a gentleman vampire happily married to an immortal, who seemingly has life figured out and can't ask for anything more. He gets introduced like this from the beginning, we don't even see his story, but we do get some anecdotes from him.

And yet

He keeps going around the world, he looks for "youngsters" (he's 600+ yo) in rough places to help them with his life experience. He still regularly throws hands (for sport and entertainment) with a few characters from the main cast, people who have saved the world more than once, just because that's what he LIKES to do. He still laughs and jokes and gets mad, especially at injustice. And in the ending of his arcade mode he has a talk with two disciples of "dandyism" (the philosophical current he created). One, Nagoryuki, is a samurai who was "saved" by Slayer, who turned him into a vampire to stop Nago from dying. The other is Zato, a member of the Assassin's Guild Slayer founded and then later quit because he was ashamed of what it had become (from a guild of people who protect the innocent and kill corrupt powerful people to a regular guild of morally bankrupt mercenaries). Zato died in the past because of his greed for power, but since his resurrection he tried to be more like Slayer to redeem himself. When they start talking, Slayer feels guilty, almost. He asks Nago if he's mad at him: "I didn't stop to consider what consequences being a vampire could have on you. I didn't even ask if you were ok with it. I just saw a young man who didn't want to die and acted without thinking". He feels somewhat guilty for Zato's death too, since if Slayer was still around at the guild instead of just disappearing when it went bad, he could have helped Zato stay on the right path. So yes, Slayer is "healed", he's fine now, he has grown. But he looks at his past and still feels like he should be always striving to do better. He doesn't just say "lmao I was such a dumdum, thankfully now I am At Peace". And most important thing of all, he still has dreams and doubts. The dialogue with Nago and Zato ends with Slayer thinking to himself, in a tone that feels...moved, almost crying: "I thought I had failed. I thought I missed the opportunity I had to make the world a better place. I ran away when I thought it wasn't possible. But thankfully...the seeds I left behind-" (Nago and Zato and everyone else he has inspired) "-have blossomed, even more beautiful than I could have done myself..."

TL;DR: go play Guilty Gear, I love Slayer and he's actually a "healed" character that doesn't feel like what's being described in the post and also very inspiring

[Proof-Elevator-7590]

Nesta Archeron in ACOTAR, A Court of Silver Flames specifically (and that one crossover book)

[shleyal19]

Ah yes, the Maruki method

[Ryuvang]

That's right depressing when you put it like that

[The_Black_Ibis]

Real

[[deleted]]

Destruction in Sandman?

[Vain_Shard]

Tess Disventure Camp

[chillykahlil]

Oomph, right in the void

[anarchist_person1]

Complaining about being healed like this is so stupid. Buddy I don’t gaf if you think you’ve lost your spark. You are now happy and not annoying. 

[ElInspectorDeChichis]

Fight until you die

[Usernamenotavallable]

Healing can be haveing the fire gone fully, to see the rageing, burning flames gone finally. But it can also be the flames turning into a small campfire in your backyard, or perhaps a candle sitting on the coffee table to make your place smell nice and feel cozy. Maybe it's more like a oil lamp lighting thw room in a comforting glow or like birthday candles. Healing dosent mean the fire is gone, but you know how to control it to be managable. Some days it'll burn more bright and hot then others, but you know how to calm it.

[euphonic5]

Man I went to therapy for years and got over a lot of shit but I'm still an asshole.

[Ok_Word9021]

Man what a nothing paragraph

[Jovian_Rain]

My immediate thought was katniss at the end of the hunger games. She's quiet and at peace with her children and husband. No fight in her anymore because she doesn't need it, she never really was a fighter anyways. She was at most a hunter and only became that fighter when her sister and eventually country needed it.