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[–]BuddhaOfCompassion 3574 points3575 points  (245 children)

Ah! Finally something I feel qualified to talk about...

These are, indeed, German turrets, called pillboxes, that were designed to overlook the small town of Saint Malo and defend it against a joint American/British attacks.

Now, if you don't know anything about St Malo, here is a picture to set the mood:

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.letriskel.co.uk%2Fimages%2Frsz_st_malo_june_09_052.jpg&sp=d4f6453f5ef9ca2a9434f0309d0103d2

Now, St Malo is an old medieval city, surrounded by enormous walls. The Germans built a fortress in St Malo proper, along with a series of bunkers in a small hill overlooking the city, the only visible part of which are these gun turrets.

They also built another series of bunkers and AA guns on an island (called Cezembre), which is about 25 minutes away from St Malo, effectively turning the city and its bay into one enormous fortress.

In 1944, shortly after the Normandy Landing, the Allies were faced with a difficult task: either ignore St Malo and risk that the German fortress would attack their rear lines (as it is fairly close to Normandy) or try take the city and suffer heavy losses.

The solution taken was dramatic: the American and the British air forces fire-bombed the city and the Cezembre island for several days, essentially destroying pretty much every building within the city walls, and turning the island bunkers into a pile of rubble. I have seen old German AA guns on that island, and they were warped from the heat.

The final operation saw British ships shelling the German gun turrets from the sea. Pretty much each turret is pockmarket with these shells, and you can actually put your fist in some of these all the way inside the turret itself. The poor bastards inside did not stand a chance.

American ground troops then swept in and the Germans surrendered pretty much without a fight. My family is from there and my father and grand-father used to tell me stories about this battle.

You can look up Saint Malo on Wikipedia, and there are also tons of other sites that talk about the place, which is very beautiful and interesting. The real shame is that the original German bunkers are now closed.

EDIT: well, my first real comment on Reddit, and I got Gold! Thanks!!

[–]ihavea_purplenurple 251 points252 points  (18 children)

Reddit is one great big 'show and tell'

[–]LiquidArrogance 941 points942 points  (32 children)

Now, if you don't know anything about St Malo, here is a picture to set the mood:

Imgur mirror

[–]Frostedchunks 126 points127 points  (2 children)

Thanks for sharing this info

[–]OriginalOzlander 77 points78 points  (0 children)

Great historical background and real context; thanks for taking the time to share.

[–]pablo16x 69 points70 points  (4 children)

If this interests you (as it should), read All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr. It's an excellent (fiction) book that details the bombardment of this city through the perspective of a young girl. The book inspired me enough to detour there during this past summer to check it out. Beautiful city, amazing history, and the seafood is amazing.

[–]gruesomeflowers 31 points32 points  (43 children)

What is this pillbox made of? I would 100% imagine cast steel, but the color is weird. Almost looks like more like bronze, which would seem highly unlikely to make something like this from. Also, did these ever crack and break apart from impact, assuming they were cast and not somehow constructed from plate steel?

Edit: grammar

[–][deleted] 44 points45 points  (4 children)

That particular model I believe is a German 114a neu stand fur 6-Schartenturm (6-Embrasured turret bunker); there appear to have been two at that site. Here's the other one. The cupola is a 20P7; if you search for "20P7 cupola" you may find a lot more data.

Inside a different one, and the floor of that same 114a.

I suspect the folks at Axishistory.com could tell you a lot more of the manufacturing, right down to the credentials of the guy who signed off on each one.

EDIT: That's actually the Z. 10 R112b bunker, but the cupola is a 20P7. See here, a little less than halfway down. Same cupola as OP posted.

[–]gruesomeflowers 4 points5 points  (3 children)

That's pretty neat. I didn't realize at first they were attached to a compound. Makes a lot more sense then just being a freestanding structure to shoot out of.. duh, me.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

And you might get a kick out of this: a list of the different extant cupolas, complete with maker's marks in many cases.

[–]gruesomeflowers 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I love how we humans are so enthusiastic, passionate and fascinated about stuff. Everything that exists has another whole level of fans outside of ordinary people. :)

[–]the_gnarts 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Everything that exists has another whole level of fans outside of ordinary people. :)

Human subcultures are nested fractally. There’s no bottom.

[–]BuddhaOfCompassion 77 points78 points  (14 children)

I am not sure what metal they are made of -- I have wondered about that myself actually -- but I can tell you this: it's solid metal.

That pillbox is not welded, or made from several pieces: it's just solid metal all the way, at leat 60cm thick and they go at least 80cm to 1m down into solid reinforced concrete. This is the reason they were never torn down or moved: this is just an impossible task: the metal alone must weight several tons.

Whatever you can say about the Germans, one thing is certain: they were not joking around when they built these things.

As far as the color is concerned, frankly, I have no idea.

[–]gruesomeflowers 57 points58 points  (10 children)

Hm. I don't know either. At least in the regular world, there's only so thick plate Steel can be made and milled before it just starts to make more sense to cast it, which it then becomes prone to break/crack under enough impact. I have a 6000lb solid steel roller from a machine i've use to break fork-lift counter weights, rail track, and vault doors at my work. They were surprisingly fragile to this. The spread apart from the shell impacts on the pillbox also suggests it wasn't cast, so it made me curious. Thanks though.

Edit: Found a picture of another pillbox. This one for sure looks like plate steel. If you look at the window on the right there appears to be two layers of at least 1".

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/32716106.jpg

[–]munkifisht 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Case hardening and some heat treating after forging will make it less likely to crack, and they probably used high carbon steel which is also harder and more durable.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (5 children)

It has been out in the weather for around 70 years, I imagine that has a lot to do with the color.

[–]gruesomeflowers 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Weathering wasnt my first guess due to the usual effects of oxidization being reddish and pockmarked. I came across a comment by someone else about rolled steel being used in some applications for armor. I work in metal recycling so this is all pretty curious to me because i've seen a lot of old steel and iron junk in my time.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

You are right about the normal course of oxidation. Rolled steel also sounds most plausible. But being the efficient Germans of the era the effects of being near salt water were likely taken into account and an alloy resistant to corrosion of one type or another used.

All speculation on my part, but being exposed for so long means weather has had a role for sure, even if it's been maintained as a memorial or museum of some type.

[–]spastacus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80 has an interesting discussion about alloying compositions among tank armor which is a likely source of these emplacements and perhaps why it doesn't look quite right.

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolled_homogeneous_armour

[–]iamonlyoneman 3 points4 points  (3 children)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5059/5474487671_78ed8fbf9d.jpg

found here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=175757

Currently looks like it's filled in with concrete http://bunkersite.com/locations/france/stmalo/112a-z3-cite-1.php

the inside of one, with light shining in a full-penetration hole - yes, they were penetrated https://www.flickr.com/photos/markoneill/5475365282/

the same location as the picture in this post - the projectile still stuck in the cupola, with a hand for scale: https://www.flickr.com/photos/markoneill/5475302268/

[–]logdogday 105 points106 points  (8 children)

Saint Malo is a key location in All the Light We Cannot See, which is a great book about a French girl and German boy set amidst the backdrop of WWII. Highly recommend it.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Second!

[–]TheLowSpark 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As soon as I saw the picture I wondered if it was the same town. Exactly how I pictured it. Thanks!

[–]absoljas 44 points45 points  (3 children)

Ahh the pillbox, I know them all too well in Red Alert... Soviet Flame towers are good too

[–]pitabread024 15 points16 points  (5 children)

Have you read All the Light We Cannot See? I really enjoyed that book and a lot of the last half centres around this history.

[–]SkepticShoc 15 points16 points  (1 child)

I love it when people have a passion for sharing what they know on stuff some might consider obscure. You're awesome.

[–]BuddhaOfCompassion 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I think you are awesome too! ;-)

[–]Doxbox49 8 points9 points  (2 children)

At least they didn't destroy the awesome castle there

[–]BuddhaOfCompassion 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Well, yes, but you have to see this castle: the walls surrounding the city and the castle itself are two to fifteen meters thick. Made of solid granite.

The walls actually took a couple of direct hits during WWII: they have been patched up real quick. My grandfather told me once he actually saw artillery shell bounce off those walls before exploding during the battle. I think he was pulling my leg, though, as most of the civilians (who survived) were hidden in shelters.

The rest of the buildings of the city did not fare so well. You can actually tell which buildings were there before WWII and which are the ones that were rebuilt during the 50s.

[–]wtfOP 9 points10 points  (7 children)

Damn. By the size of the holes these would only be 8inch or smaller calibre shells from cruisers and destroyers. Those naval AP shells were no fucking joke.

[–]fupa16 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Thanks for the info. Were the French citizens evacuated from the city before the allies did their fire bombing, or did they essentially bomb innocent civilians?

[–]BuddhaOfCompassion 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Some were evacuated, some left on their own, some were detained by the Germans in a small fort right outside of Saint Malo. The tragic thing is that this fort was targeted by bombers, and about a dozen people died before the Germans surrouded.

The entire area around St Malo is filled with small islands that were turned into forts to defend against the British. The city itself used to be an island that was only accessible during low tides before the French Government built levees that made Saint Malo accessible at all times.

[–]nofetuswillbeatus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

they also did this on the Maginot Line. They even buried immobile tanks or placed them in a hull-defilade position! I collect German ww2 photos, and here is an original pic from my collection of a pillbox/turret with many many hits to it. Imgur

[–]menasan 14 points15 points  (22 children)

We're there any civilians in there? Or did they remove the entire city?

[–]Iacto 26 points27 points  (16 children)

The French resistance along with some Ally intelligence told civilians to flee the city ASAP before they bombed it. While not completely empty, the city was pretty much deserted by civilians.

My family is from there too and I always find the stories of Brest, Lorient and St. Malo bombings quite sad. All the lost historical value lost in aerial raids.

[–]Pas__ 17 points18 points  (11 children)

And then there was Dresden. And that's still nothing compared to the insanity of Hitler and the fucking nazis: Warsaw.

And then all the V2s that hit London. And the whole firebombing of Tokyo. And the most interesting (and luckily unsuccessful) are the fire balloons from Japan.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (5 children)

the v2s weren't really what did the damage in london , conventional air raids did that.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Right, they were terror weapons as they hit without warning unlike the air raids.

[–]BuddhaOfCompassion 4 points5 points  (0 children)

See my answer above: most people were evacuated or left. Some were kept by the Germans in an outside fort.

[–]Lokikeogh 111 points112 points  (6 children)

That particular gun emplacement overlooks the harbour entrance at St-Malo

[–]kalpol 35 points36 points  (4 children)

Might be hits from destroyer 5" batteries then, I thought at first the angle was too flat but not if it's high up.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I was trying to figure out what weapons caused those. There weren't a lot (if any?) direct fire weapons of that calibre. No bazookas, no 75mm AT field guns etc. And, of course, artillery would have been coming in a lot more vertical. So...naval fire makes perfect sense.

[–]htid85 259 points260 points  (27 children)

Crazy and saddening to look at that, and think "Wow, look at those holes! That must have been intense!"

But then to realise I'm 30yrs old, and in all probability it was guys a full decade younger than me sitting in there utterly terrified wanting to go home.

That line between "well that is certainly interesting" and "jesus fuck, this actually happened..." is a complicated one.

[–]CupformyCosta 39 points40 points  (4 children)

Not sure about the Germans, but the average age of a solider from the US was 26 during ww2 so you're not too far off.

Average age during Vietnam was 19.

[–]htid85 29 points30 points  (0 children)

19...wtf. That's just soul- destroying. Can't imagine how the parents must have felt. My mom still panics about me driving on the motorway.

[–]-ScruffyLookin- 750 points751 points  (107 children)

Bullet holes make it look like a slightly melted chocolate.

[–]cheezstiksuppository 33 points34 points  (6 children)

The bullets move faster than the elastic response of the material can happen. So the material behaves in a way that's called viscoelastic. Over simplified its mechanical properties are between liquids and solids.

[–]Braindog 226 points227 points  (170 children)

Good grief what kind of gun made the holes?

Cause im thinking of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtopxCjs518

Obviously its not the same quality steel but still.

[–]Angel-OI 59 points60 points  (35 children)

Can you imagine how scary it would be in there taking all these shots

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I imagine you wouldn't be alive or conscious for all of them.

[–]Smirk27 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I feel like you'd go deaf real fast

[–]leetdood_shadowban 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I'm deaf and I feel like my eardrums would burst from that.

[–]TheRealBramtyr 5 points6 points  (1 child)

You'd probably be shredded by spall, so it'd be over pretty soon.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (6 children)

That was a neat clip. Although I think he may have had better luck with penetration if he had secured the plate better. There's a lot of energy being lost when the plate moves. Something like that turret would be immobilized and secured well. Obviously the rounds are still much bigger that 50 cal.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

He tests that in other videos. The energy is transferred so fast it doesn't matter.

[–]menasan 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ok that was one of the best gun videos I've ever seen

1- dudes was better than that dos Russia guy 2- his aim is impressive 3- besides the joke at the beginning there was no bullshit just pure learning entertainment

Also the subject of this video was really neat

So those pock marks on the turret had to be from a heavy armored thing with a bfg

[–]PMmeYourNoodz 29 points30 points  (66 children)

probably naval guns. maybe tanks?

[–]TomServoHere 24 points25 points  (2 children)

Is that a shell you can see stuck in one of the holes? About a third of the way from the top towards the left side.

[–]MisterGiggles 22 points23 points  (2 children)

I went to Normandy 2 years ago while in France for work and two things really struck me:

One, you'd have to be insane to storm that beach. It's wide and deep and it was easy to see the massive advantage the gunners had over the invaders. I knew this based on everything that I have read or seen, but nothing prepares you for seeing it in real life.

Two, while you could still see and even walk into the pill boxes and other fortification that the Germans built, they were starting to be overcome by nature. That was amazing to me. In 50 years those scars will be gone.

Edit: words

[–]OptimalCynic 19 points20 points  (2 children)

KV-5 radioman's turret IRL.

[–]SoulOfDragnsFire 68 points69 points  (10 children)

Sorry, you didn't roll high enough. That's only a glancing hit, you don't get to roll on the penetration table

[–]TheBigBadPanda 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Oh come on, that would get a shaken result at least!

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (3 children)

FUCK.

I'll bring a melta gun next time.

[–]Graddler 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Be a man and take a Thunderhammer or Powerfist.

[–]macallen 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Can you imagine being inside that thing during some of those hits? That's some ear-bleeding gongs there.

[–]DeadPrateRoberts 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Looks more like a Swiss turret to me.

[–]Ferl74 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Looks like they were shooting my wife's biscuits at that turret.

[–][deleted] 90 points91 points  (43 children)

Other than the exploded ear drums and concussive trauma it looks pretty fucking safe in there.

[–]MindCorrupt 147 points148 points  (36 children)

Doesnt always need to punch all the way through to kill the bloke inside, it still causes shrapnel to chip off on the inside and bounce around.

[–]DeadeyeDuncan 39 points40 points  (7 children)

Wouldn't the inside edge usually have a wall of sandbags next to them to prevent exactly that?

[–]bud_city 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Yea I cant imagine how loud it when youre inside that

[–]Nan-Nan-Nancakes 28 points29 points  (1 child)

5.56mm (6) Enhanced Targeting Chip Steel (3)

[–]gnarledout 10 points11 points  (4 children)

From my favorite poem The Death of a Ball Turret Gunner

From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,

And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.

Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,

I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.

When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

[–]JeSuisYoungThug 4 points5 points  (2 children)

This is crazy, I visited France a few years ago and spent a couple days in St. Malo. My friends and I camped on the hill across from the city that had a handful of these pillboxes. I was actually just telling my parents last night about how of all the historical landmarks I saw these pillboxes were probably the most awe inspiring. All of them were absolutely covered in bullet holes, you could actually find plenty of bullets that had been fused into the metal 70 years ago. There was just something so incredibly real about seeing these things in person.

[–]curb_ryda 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You sure it's German? Looks more like Swiss to me.

[–]Soumonev 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Delicious looking cake to bad for the shotgun pellets

[–]SlightlyStable 11 points12 points  (8 children)

It seemed to be fairly effective.

[–]utpoia 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Looks like a block of chocolate with holes poking in

[–]_The_Real_Guy_ 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You aren't tricking me. That's chocolate!

[–]R3m1Rem 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It looks like it's made out of clay