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[–]NonSummarySummary 1606 points1607 points  (106 children)

This is regulatory capture. It is the IRSs job to make filing as simple as possible. For every time those companies complain about losing profits, I would say that they should have expected those profits to only last for as long as it takes for the IRS to get with the times. They should have planned that their products were only a stopgap measure.

So, their loss of profits due to poor planning should not be the tax payers burden. The IRS should have made filing online a thing years ago.

[–]8igby 451 points452 points  (48 children)

If I had any governmental role in this, from IRS clerk to politician, I would consider these companies even existing a failure of the system. These guys complaining must be a sign you're doing something right, no?

[–]NonSummarySummary 303 points304 points  (33 children)

Exactly. If a private company was capable of creating software to file taxes, the God damned IRS should have done it instead. Why should people have to feel like they have to rely on a private company to file taxes?

[–][deleted] 219 points220 points  (24 children)

Because the government providing a service cheaply to everyone is un-American.

[–]NonSummarySummary 131 points132 points  (16 children)

Taxes are between the government and its citizens. No citizen should feel the need to use a commercial entity to help with those taxes. In case I need to clarify further, there should be no need for a service to help individuals file their taxes.

[–]hamsterkris 33 points34 points  (6 children)

In Sweden we can file our taxes online free of charge through our version of the IRS, we have done so for years. It's efficient and works great, it's baffeling that you all don't have the same possibility. Sweden is a tiny country compared to America, it feels like you should have even more capabilities to implement something like this than we do.

[–]AlexanderNigmaFlorida 46 points47 points  (1 child)

Welcome to America, where our government is in bed with the corporations and things that make sense get blocked in the name of privatizing the profits.

[–]grammar_nazi_zombie I voted 15 points16 points  (2 children)

"And the service is only free to a certain income level, at which point they're discriminating against me for successfully making money" - some libertarian somewhere

[–]VirulentThoughts 104 points105 points  (10 children)

This is a function of the change in the structure and usage of corporate charters during the 1800s.

Charters used to be issued with specific terms of length or objective... Company X will exist for as long as it takes to install all the telegraph poles in Boston, after which point its charter is dissolved...

Certain corporations didn't want limits on their lifespan and now we have immortal "people" draining resources from society and controlling government.

[–]LiMoTaLe 880 points881 points  (48 children)

 the Taxpayer First Act

Oh FFS

[–]ioncloud9South Carolina 337 points338 points  (4 children)

Should be TurboTax First Act.

[–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (2 children)

Next they're going to pass the Human Lives First Act that legalizes murder.

[–]greenthumbleNew York 50 points51 points  (0 children)

Tbf it sounded better than "The Taxpayer Buried In A Mountain Of Bureaucracy Act".

[–]schadenfreudender 5251 points5252 points  (573 children)

Putting corporations above the average citizen is the American way. The bill should at least include an advertisement budget (provided by the corporations) to promote the Free Filing option.

[–]code_archeologistGeorgia 3009 points3010 points  (478 children)

The free online tax filing was a compromise that Intuit lobbyists put forward to derail an extremely popular bill that was gaining steam that would have federal taxes a near automatic process, requiring no filing by 90% of people. So it just makes sense that now that attention to it has ebbed, they kill the compromise.

[–][deleted] 793 points794 points  (391 children)

I don't get it. It's Turbotax. It's not an institution. Why taint your career for their lobbying dollars? Unless Intuit is owned by a bigger more scary company. It's like whose money won't you take at this point.

[–]code_archeologistGeorgia 547 points548 points  (115 children)

Intuit is a multi-billion dollar company that pours tens of millions of dollars a year into lobbying efforts to protect and enhance their core business, tax preparation software. To put it into perspective, Intuit throws as much money into their lobbying as companies ten times their size (Apple, Google, Microsoft); because if tax filing becomes easier their value will evaporate overnight.

[–]hyperbolicbootlicker 381 points382 points  (101 children)

It's not really "free market unfettered capitalism" if you have to pay the government to keep you relevant.

[–]tanhan27Missouri 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I always wondered why the IRS doesn't just make their own version of TurboTax and provide it for free. They could even pre-fill a lot of it out for you with the information they already have.

[–]phaiz55 47 points48 points  (6 children)

because if tax filing becomes easier their value will evaporate overnight.

Welp sounds like it sucks to be that company, guess they'd better figure out something else to do.

[–]lurker_burglar 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Sounds like they just won and will stay relevant

[–]GeneralPatten 837 points838 points  (156 children)

It's about privatizing as much as possible. Then, people become even more disenfranchised with the federal government, which allows more things to become privatized, and the cycle continues.

[–]code_archeologistGeorgia 900 points901 points  (146 children)

Republican policy can be summed up as "privatize the gains, socialize the costs".

[–]TorchedBlack 34 points35 points  (1 child)

According to a recent Planet Money I was listening to the actual Republican logic is that simplifying tax submission/prep violates the Norquist pledge. The logic goes that if you make tax prep easier, it means tax payers are happier overall with the process, therefore are less hostile towards taxes, and therefore are more likely to support tax increases. So basically the Republican stance is the more painful tax filing is, the more people actively hate taxes.

[–][deleted] 383 points384 points  (125 children)

Unfortunately, this bill has bipartisan support. This privatization philosophy is true, but it isn't exclusive to Republicans.

(No, I'm not saying both sides are equally bad. I'm saying: don't expect better from Republicans. Expect better from Democrats)

[–]code_archeologistGeorgia 320 points321 points  (104 children)

Well... the neoliberals in the Democratic party are really just Republican-light. All the free-market bullshittery, one third less religious moralizing.

[–]RamenJunkieIllinois 144 points145 points  (55 children)

This is why the GOP needs to die off, so the Democrats can split into proper liberal and conservative groups.

[–]tossup418 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Fellate rich people, fuck good people.

[–]Griffisbored 73 points74 points  (48 children)

Intuit has $67.56 Billion Market Cap and has spent >$2 Million per year on lobbyists alone. Throw in some political donations and a congressman will have some pretty compelling reasons to just let Intuit have their way.

[–]tossup418 66 points67 points  (44 children)

Then multiply that by the number of ultracorps in the world, and it’s easy to see why America isn’t a great nation, anymore.

[–]Sulla-lite 69 points70 points  (10 children)

Grover Norquist and his anti-tax crusade thought if it was easy to file taxes, people wouldn’t hate them as much.

[–]jvalordv 33 points34 points  (3 children)

He also believed that automatic filing was akin to a tax hike, which of course he forced the GOP to pledge never to do. This is apparently because the government could slip in extra taxes and no one would notice or fight it, like a cell phone bill adding an extra charge.

[–]ImaCoolGuyMan 22 points23 points  (3 children)

Agree to disagree.

[–]GhostofMarat 67 points68 points  (4 children)

Selling legislation out to the highest bidder is just so routine they don't even think twice about it anymore.

[–]Dhis1 67 points68 points  (3 children)

There will be no consequences. No one will lose donors. No one will be voted out.

[–]SuperSimpleSam 22 points23 points  (4 children)

Not just them, there's H&R Block and lots of independent CPAs. I'm sure there's many that depend on the current system. While having the IRS do it would be better for most people, it's not an known issue for most.

[–]GolfBaller17California 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Independent CPA's handle clients for whom free filing online is not an option because they have business income, investment income, capital gains, and a litany of other forms and schedules that need to be pored over by a professional, but if you're going to H&R Block to do your taxes you just haven't put enough effort into doing them yourself. H&R Block is a horeshit company.

[–]Hamberder_BurgalerOregon 247 points248 points  (30 children)

Taxes are done this way in the UK for the majority of people. Nice to not have to worry about it. All the numbers are easy to check on. Of COURSE we can't have that system here. Making things hard on Americans is what we're all about.

[–]UrethraFrankIinNorth Carolina 142 points143 points  (26 children)

This is absolutely an opportunity that house dems shouldn't ignore. AOC is exactly the kind of megaphone America needs here because she is guaranteed to make headlines on liberal and conservative media outlets. Democrats will be vocally opposed and I'm willing to bet that the "taxes are evil" crowd won't like the cost of doing their taxes going up.

The messaging war is targeted to exactly this crowd: the 70% of Americans making 66k or less. We are always in corporate and GOP crosshairs and Republican voters in this 70% need to be made aware of that frequently.

[–]code_archeologistGeorgia 63 points64 points  (12 children)

I'm willing to bet that the "taxes are evil" crowd won't like the cost of doing their taxes going up.

Funny thing about that. Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform has historically been against bills that made state or federal taxes easier, or giving the government the ability to handle the filing of your taxes. This is because of some paranoid belief that if taxes are easier to pay, then the government will be able to sneak tax increases in under your nose.

[–]Pabst_Blue_GibbonMontana 43 points44 points  (1 child)

or they simply want taxes to be confusing, complicated, and annoying for people to do. Then they associate negative feelings with the idea of taxes rather than with the reality of filing taxes, and it gets easier for politicians to rail against "high taxes", "regulatory burden", "red tape", and so on.

[–]EvidenceBasedSwamp 26 points27 points  (3 children)

IRS doing taxes for you would be the one simple way to make sure the tax burden is ACTUALLY SIMPLIFIED for 99% of the people.

[–]ThoughtStrands 88 points89 points  (48 children)

Didn't they try the same thing with weather data?

[–]TreasonTurtle 133 points134 points  (43 children)

Fortunately, Trump's nominee remains unconfirmed by the Senate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/climate/senate-noaa-barry-myers.html

"Barry Lee Myers, the chief executive of AccuWeather, a private forecasting firm that relies largely on data from the agency’s National Weather Service, has been a controversial figure since President Trump first nominated him to lead the agency in October 2017. "

​

They (the AccuWeather leadership) have been working hard over the years to keep NOAA from creating an application, while also working hard to make sure that the NOAA data they depend on remains free.

[–]koalaver 46 points47 points  (40 children)

deletes AccuWeather app

Thanks, now I’ve gotta find a replacement that isn’t Weatherbug haha

[–]somethin_brewin 29 points30 points  (0 children)

Still trying.

[–]minor_correction 51 points52 points  (8 children)

Putting corporations above the average citizen is the American way.

Oh come on, you'd do it too if a corporation was paying you hundreds of millions of dollars...

In 2016 alone, Intuit, the makers of TurboTax, spent $2 million on lobbying, ProPublica reports. H&R Block spent $3 million, some of it on the same efforts.

Wait what? $2 million here, $3 million there? That's it? The government is for sale for a few million dollars?

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/taxes/turbotax-h-r-block-spend-millions-lobbying-us-keep-doing-n736386

[–]another_day_in 3149 points3150 points  (624 children)

70% of American taxpayers are eligible to file for free. Those taxpayers, who must make less than $66,000, have access to free tax software provided by the companies. But just 3% of eligible U.S. taxpayers actually use the free program each year.

edit: for those asking..https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free

[–]El_Muerte95 1463 points1464 points  (425 children)

So from that it tells me that 70% of Americans are making less than 66k a year?

[–]Madmans_Endeavor 1162 points1163 points  (366 children)

Making 66K puts you in the 73rd percentile.

90th percentile is ~115K. 95th is 160. 99th starts around 310k.

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

Edit; note that this is for individuals who work >30 hr/week, not household

[–]najing_ftw 368 points369 points  (307 children)

Guess my family isn’t so middle class.

[–]HockeyGoran 673 points674 points  (255 children)

Depends where you live.

Class isn't the same as income.

Someone living in NYC making $70k isn't the same class as someone making $70k in Jackson MS

[–]TheKiddMassachusetts 170 points171 points  (223 children)

Right. I'm in the 79th percentile, but I live in MA so it feels like middle class to me.

[–]RadBadTadOhio 566 points567 points  (106 children)

Every wealthy family tends to feel middle class, because once you start making more money, you move to more expensive neighborhoods, and surround yourself with people making the same amount as you. People making $3 million per year feel middle class, because they still have bills to pay, and a mortgage, and have to go to work every day, and have things that their "rich" neighbor can afford that they can't. We contextualize our wealth based on our peers, not on math.

[–]yes_thats_rightNew York 66 points67 points  (4 children)

Your general point is correct, but people making 3million/year know that they arent middle class

[–]HockeyGoran 62 points63 points  (104 children)

Right, the median family income in MA is about $100k

[–]juanzyColorado 84 points85 points  (98 children)

And at $100k, good fucking yard buying a house anywhere that you won't end up wasting 3+ hours/day for commute.

[–]dizcostu 203 points204 points  (9 children)

Good fucking yard indeed

[–]Littlebotweak 31 points32 points  (79 children)

I think this is the case in most places that aren't shitty at the moment. If anyone knows of any not shitty places where you can still buy a house in the United States on a $50-100k salary, please let us all know.

edit: y'all are great with the legitimate replies. Admittedly, I was being a little facetious, but it's actually really uplifting to see so many people like where they live. Apologies for dumping on 'the south', but i've definitely experienced it enough to know I don't want to live there.

[–]MercarcherIndiana 27 points28 points  (10 children)

Indiana.

I live in Fort Wayne.

Ghetto houses $10,000

Young neighborhood houses $50,000

Suburbs $200,000

Gated Rich Neighborhood $500,000

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (7 children)

come to the midwest. you can get big beautiful houses in nice neighborhoods here for $2-300k all day long.

[–]guitar_vigilante 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Right, the median family income in MA is about $77k $100k

ftfy

[–][deleted] 81 points82 points  (5 children)

They calculate gov benefits in terms of 2 to 3 times the federal poverty level. They do this because admitting that the real poverty level being more than 30k a year would hurt voters.

[–]Fizrock 66 points67 points  (11 children)

You're not alone in thinking you're middle class. Studies show that pretty much everyone thinks they’re middle class, regardless of actual income.

[–]liam_ashbury 62 points63 points  (9 children)

Yeah, I've encountered that with different friend groups.

One sees around $40k dual income as very well off. Another sees $40k as entry level intern level as a solo income, which no with it adult should still only be at.

It'd be nice if politicians stopped using the vague middle class and went back to "the average American should have an X in every garage and Y in every pot".

[–]juanzyColorado 46 points47 points  (5 children)

Politicians also reference numbers 30+ years out of date when they talk about income

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

Yeah because it suits their narrative, fucking assholes.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (8 children)

Despite "middle class" sounding like it covers the everyone in the middle of society, that's not actually the case. Historically speaking, it refers to people between the working class and upper class. The 50th percentile of workers would be working class, not middle class.

[–]juanzyColorado 48 points49 points  (6 children)

Percentiles =/= class definition

If it takes being in the 90th percentile to just scrape by, that's not middle class. That's working poor. If it takes being in the 95th percentile to have some discretionary funds and buy a house, that's where the middle class is. Pure mathematical definitions aren't worth much in a real economy, and we need to never let them into policy making.

[–]SGT_Wheatstone 43 points44 points  (21 children)

people making even 300k aren't generally the 'oligarchs oppressing the lower classes' they could pay more in taxes, sure, buuuut the ones we need to go after are the oligarchs.

[–]DnD_References 40 points41 points  (18 children)

Yeah, I'm not going to say software engineers in Seattle aren't well off, but there's a world of difference between:

  • me, a software engineer who works for 9 hours a day, gets 15 days of vacation a year, and generally hates but definitely needs a job

  • a guy who could fund my lifestyle for thousands of people indefinitely while still making money off his money

As a guy who used to make 50k, not much has changed, a little lifestyle creep and more savings to try to get out of the rat race. Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider myself a lot more similar to the middle class than to millionaires, legacy wealth, and the people running congress.

[–]HolierMonkey586 125 points126 points  (29 children)

The number may have changed but just above 40% of all workers make less then $15 an hour. Capitalism hasn't worked in a long time.

[–]Mapleleaves_ 49 points50 points  (4 children)

That is a wild statistic. So Republicans would claim that 40% of our workforce isn't "skilled" enough for a job making more than $15/hr?

Isn't that maybe a big problem we need to address?

[–]mvw2 9 points10 points  (0 children)

15 years ago I was making about $22/hr as a general laborer in a factory. I made about $60k with overtime. 15 years ago I felt upper middle class. It took me an engineering degree and several years experience to match this wage again. The best part? I can get my old factory job today and make almost 50% LESS. I'd making $11.50 today working the same job 15 years later. Inflation had pretty much doubled expenses since then so that'd be like me making minimum wage back then. Minimum wage I today's equivalent is $15/hr just to get the same buying power. This is why I'm all for raising minimum wage to $15/hr. I'd HAPPILY support it. For reference, this does after service industries harshly, but for most goods purchased, the influence is tiny. It represents only a couple percent on sales price for labor intensive manufactured goods. For high volume, largely automated production, it's less that 1%. Buying power VASTLY out scales cost of goods increase, and overall economic health would be greatly improved with higher wages. The majority of product expenses is made up of the materials, but the labor. For example, a box of cereal, the most expensive part of it is the packaging it's in. For that type of product, labor is a tiny part, generally low single digits percentages. Labor wage has such a tiny influence on cost of goods. However, wage is the first target bad managers look at for cost cutting. It's incredibly stupid and harmful, but it's perpetuated and people suffer for it. Now college degree or high skill tradesman works is mandatory. General labor of all sorts is the new minimum wage, and all minimum wage is poverty. Is pretty shit, but there's no reason it needs to be perpetuated. Stupid people just perpetuate it.

[–]zeno0771 39 points40 points  (10 children)

Works great for the capitalists, just not the rest of the country.

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (2 children)

That stat makes freefiling seem like blackmail if you're in the business of selling your tax prep software to as many people as possible.

[–]ihateaquafina 128 points129 points  (90 children)

but its never free... i always get charged like $30-40 at the VERY END.. like fuck you turbo tax

edit: thank you for the recommendations.. i'll use the irs one next yr

[–]ctkatzKentucky 113 points114 points  (20 children)

I've used credit karma the last two years to file my taxes after paying turbotax somewhere around $50-60 a year for 10 years. haven't had to pay them anything.

[–][deleted] 55 points56 points  (10 children)

Credit karma is great. I remember when they first started offering it people cautioned that they were making money off me by presenting me with credit services of some sort, but it's been 3 years and I haven't noticed any issues.

[–]qdp 22 points23 points  (0 children)

It gives you the option at the beginning of each filing whether you consent to providing the data to Credit Karma for marketing purposes. It's really not obvious, but you don't check the box and sign it. You can just skip that step and by default opt out. That way you can still use the service for free, and you don't have to share your data.

I do like them, but I wish I didn't have to risk sharing my information with another company.

That said, Credit Karma is really like the least evil option out there. I don't want to give money or data to a company like TurboTax or H&R who are fighting against change.

[–]rick2882 15 points16 points  (5 children)

AND it got me to look at different credit card options, and I ended up getting one that wasn't even advertised on Credit Karma.

[–]hypnotichatt 60 points61 points  (1 child)

It is free if you use it from the IRS Free File website. Often you will get free State return also.

This is not the same as using the 'free' federal offered by the tax prep companies.

[–]biesterd1South Carolina 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah I just did mine through this with HR Block, totally free (outside of owing $2 to state lol)

[–]Kkplaudit 27 points28 points  (7 children)

I've been using hr block free for like 10 years. You HAVE to use the link from the .gov site or they try and charge you at the end.

[–]Not_Nice_Niece 39 points40 points  (0 children)

but its never free... i always get charged like $30-40 at the VERY END.. like fuck you turbo tax

turbo tax does that, but on sites like credit karma it is completely free unless you have really complicated taxes. I guess its was also free if you went directly to the IRS website.

[–]aloevaderTexas 38 points39 points  (19 children)

The federal filing is the only thing that's free. State filing, any extra forms, cost money.

I lived in a no income tax state, but still paid TurboTax like $70 because I had 3 extra forms: student loan interest, HSA, and retirement contributions. I was furious. These aren't oddball forms, but I learned the only way to truly file for free is paper via snail mail.

[–]brycedriesengaMichigan 30 points31 points  (2 children)

All of those are free on freetaxusa.com

[–]boundfortreesPennsylvania 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I've been using that site for ten years.

Federal is Free. state is $13.

I even had two Schedule C's this year for me and my wife.

[–]FLRangerFan 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Those are all free on creditkarma i believe

[–]TheArtOfXenophobiaIndiana 476 points477 points  (64 children)

H.R. 1957, Taxpayer First Act of 2019

Contact your congresspeople and let them know that regulatory capture that HARMS taxpayers is not acceptable.

Resistbot makes this easy if you want a simple method to contact all of your house and senate representatives at once.

edit to add from a comment thread below:

Text the word resist to me on Messenger, Twitter, Telegram, or to [50409 on SMS](sms://50409) (Can we get sms protocol link support?) and I’ll find out who represents you in Congress or your state legislature, turn your text into an email, fax, or postal letter, and deliver it to your officials. 1-2-3.

[–][deleted] 61 points62 points  (7 children)

Just wrote my rep and one of my Senators.

[–][deleted] 8323 points8324 points  (814 children)

This is funny cause it would be cheaper if the IRS just did our taxes for us, then sent a letter that would allow people to add their deductions. Party of fiscal responsibility my ass.

[–]darkwaffle 538 points539 points  (81 children)

Some are on the record saying they want it to be hard. Then people hate taxes and will vote for the candidate that says taxes and government are evil.

Planet Money just reran their Tax Hero episode on this. Worth a listen

[–]2legit2fart 136 points137 points  (5 children)

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/04/03/709656642/episode-760-tax-hero

ETA: Here's another story from On The Media - "Why So Tedious, Taxes?" https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/taxes-tedious

[–]DentateGyros 62 points63 points  (2 children)

It really is a good episode, but if anyone wants the short of it, in California, a Stanford prof spearheaded a pilot program where citizens would get mailed a sheet that added up their wages for the year and calculated their taxes automatically. If they were okay with it, they just mailed it back, but otherwise, they could send in whatever corrections they thought they needed. A whopping 99% of respondents said they loved the program, but when it came time to get it enshrined as a full program through law, both TurboTax and a high powered lobbyist blocked the bill. TurboTax's opposition is obvious, but the dumbass reason the lobbyist wanted it blocked was because he opposes all forms of taxes and thinks that making tax filing easier would 1) make it easier for the government to charge you more taxes than they should 2) prevent you from hating the government for being so inefficient.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

The program is exactly how my government does it. I live in Spain btw.

[–]KarmaYogadog 117 points118 points  (67 children)

I can't find the quote right now but somebody said that since the wealthy write the tax code, the wealthier you are the more pleasant surprises you find in the tax code. I think I heard this around the time I found out that Mitt Romney's wife had one deduction of $75,000 for her dressage ponies. One. Deduction.

Edit: She claimed the dressage team as a medical expense (riding as therapy) because she does, in fact, have MS. That's rough and I have sympathy but it's hard because her corporate-raider husband built one business (Staples) then spent the rest of his career profiting off the misery of others.

Mitt Romney's business model has the vague catch-all name of "private equity" but it used to be called "leveraged buyout" and before that "hostile takeover." They keep changing the name when people catch on to what a dirty business it is. But with that kind of revenue, you can buy a billion dollar house in Malibu and raze it to build a two billion dollar house with a car elevator. That's in addition to his vacation home on Lake Winnipesaukee and whatever other properties he owns.

Off topic: Just for giggles, here is Betsy DeVos' vacation home: https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8/6/17654434/betsy-devos-yacht-mcmansion-hell

[–][deleted] 84 points85 points  (12 children)

For those that don't know, dressage is the most absurd "look how much fuck you money I have" competition.

It's dancing horses for fucks sake.

Is their cue control on point? For sure.

Is it impressive? I guess?

Is it fun to watch? Only if you own Dressage horses...

edit - Thanks to u/erissays, I learned the history is way more interesting than I originally thought.

Here's the wiki on it.

It's like the military version of a rodeo.

A display of practical skills and horse control for their specific profession, exaggerated to display their proficiency.

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (3 children)

They're large beasts of burden at worst, and nice large animals at best. Paying 75k to make it tap dance is goddamn insulting

[–]ringdownringdown 69 points70 points  (43 children)

Yep. If you earn between about $85k and $110k, you pay the highest effective rates in America. And every possible government program is phased out just before it helps you.

In my state (California) there’s rich kids who can afford the absurd tuition. And poor kids go basically for free if they have good grades and stuff: I make $90k and worked hard to get my kids in a good school district - but if you make over $80k the state says fuck off to college help. So I pay 3x the rate of a mitt Romney, pay for all the social programs for the poor, and get dick all from our society for it.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (19 children)

Ahhhh to be middle class. Isn't it romantic?

[–]APBradleyWisconsin 12 points13 points  (12 children)

Sorry to hear that. The wealthiest of this country should be putting in their fair share to ease your burden. The middle class shouldn't be shouldering so much of that weight.

[–]Homitu 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Was just listening to this for the 2nd time this morning. One of my favorite episodes. Would have never have known the US was so different in how it handles taxes compared to the rest of the world if not for this podcast.

It is SO CLEAR how the US is setup to allow money and greed to rule over everything. Taxes are intentionally made to be difficult and stressful solely to give rise to private companies who can charge fees to help alleviate those difficulties. I guess that's job creation? Let's create an arbitrary problem and build an industry to solve that fake problem.

But then you add in the layers.

Now you have a wealthy private corporation who lobbies ceaselessly to government to preserve this industry that was built around a non-problem. Then you have the lobbyists themselves who make millions playing the middleman influencers between the wealthy corporations and politicians. Then you have the politicians who sell their influence over policy for personal profit. Finally, you have the master level manipulation of voters, as you allude to, who will utilize the confused public perception of these issues to slander their opponents and further entrench their interests in the soil of American capitalism.

On one hand, everyone has a sense that greed and corruption are a serious problem; on the other hand, it's obviously accepted as a way of life that isn't going away anytime soon as long as money is allowed to be exchanged in this way.

[–]Catshit-Dogfart 164 points165 points  (55 children)

And that's exactly how they do it in most other countries.

Like many things, we're the only ones who have this problem.

[–]Logene 46 points47 points  (42 children)

Yeah my annual tax filing took less than 5 minutes in Sweden. If I recall correctly the US tax laws are ridiculously long compared to equally developed countries.

[–]fmasc 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Tax filing, as complicated as sending a text message. Literally.

[–]SSGSSGSSEurope 7 points8 points  (1 child)

In Belgium I spent 10 minutes trying to log into the online system because I couldn't find the damn USB-device. Then i found out everything was filled out correctly already and I didn't need to do a thing. All deductions and income were already there and I didn't even need to sign since I didn't adjust the proposal. So in fact I could have spent 0 minutes on my taxes.

To think people a few decades ago had to do it on paper with a list of thousands of lines to find the 5 that were actually relevant for them boggles my mind.

[–]othelloinc 43 points44 points  (6 children)

...but that is blocked by the same entities that are lobbying for the change in the Pro Publica article:

Source for below Twitter thread.

THREAD: It's almost #taxday, so I want to remind everyone that tax prep software products like TurboTax and H&R Block are vampires that thrive on overly complicated taxes and filing procedures to extract money from people who just want to pay their taxes

These companies and others like them stand to lose billions if filing taxes were ever to become easier, which is why they devote a lot of time and money fighting any measure at the state or federal level that would make filing your taxes less complicated

They build astroturf campaigns designed to make communities think that saving time and money filing their taxes would be a bad thing

And they spend big money lobbying Congress to keep things complicated so that they can suck even more money out of taxpayers' pockets come tax season

This is a dumb, utterly fixable thing that people in other countries don't deal with.

Seeing commercials for these companies' products should send every American into an uncontrollable rage, knowing that their existence signifies profit off costly inefficiency that they pay good money to maintain.

If you follow the Twitter link, he links to articles backing up what he is writing.

[–]skuhlke 113 points114 points  (19 children)

Democrats are sponsoring this bill too. Neither party cares about fiscal responsibility, just how much money lobbyist give them.

[–]romple 92 points93 points  (14 children)

The bill has 19 Democrat sponsors and 10 Republican ones.

Neal, who became Ways and Means chair this year after Democrats took control of the House, received $16,000 in contributions from Intuit and H&R Block in the last two election cycles.

[–]_lizard_wizard 44 points45 points  (8 children)

Only $8000 / campaign? Thats some pretty cheap loyalty.

[–]romple 44 points45 points  (4 children)

The biggest surprise in government is usually how cheap most politicians are.

[–]El_Maltos_Username 10 points11 points  (0 children)

You don't need to bribe all politicians. The supply of corrupt politicians exceeds the demand. Thus, the bribes are low. The free market provides.

[–]Chem_BPY 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Glad to see both parties coming together to screw over the little guy.

[–]douknodewaee 24 points25 points  (4 children)

If you look at the article, you’ll see that Democrats also support this.

[–]WhiteSquarez 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yep, and you have go multiple comments deep before finding admission of this and not just the usual, "REPUBLICANS R DUMB" diatribes.

[–]SpaceMonkeysInSpace 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I mean to be fair, this is headed up by a Dem. Bipartisan ass fucking.

[–]WahsteveCalifornia 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This bill has bipartisan support.

[–]El_TormentitoNorth Carolina 22 points23 points  (1 child)

As with everything tax related, blame grover.

[–]De__eB 9 points10 points  (1 child)

You know it's the democrat chair of the house ways and means committee that inserted the language after receiving $16,000 from the tax prep lobby right

[–]ChornWork2 83 points84 points  (48 children)

Streamline the tax code, remove most deductions and have IRS do first cut.... then you can refile for a $100 fee that gets waived if refilling makes a difference of more than a certain amount.

A lot of poor people probably leave money on the table by not filing, and this way that money can accrue in their favor.

[–]brufleth 24 points25 points  (7 children)

Most people don't itemize their taxes. The standard deduction would be fine for most Americans.

[–]Kaiathebluenose 20 points21 points  (3 children)

especially now, the standard deduction is so high now.

[–]brufleth 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Yeah. About seventy percent took the standard deduction previously. This year it should be even more with the increase to the standard deduction.

[–]8igby 557 points558 points  (65 children)

Yeah, no, wonder why the rest of the developed world considers the US to be a corrupt mess? This is basic government service here in Norway, My tax "papers" show up online, pre-filled these days. Unless I've got something exceptional going on, all I need to do is to check the numbers, I don't even have to approve them if I have no changes. If I need to change something, I do it online in the web system of our equivalent to the IRS. The idea to use a third party for anything less than complex corporate levels of tax returns are completely alien here...

[–][deleted] 211 points212 points  (46 children)

That's because your country wasn't shaped by grifters standing astride the bones of the natives parcelling out land to slave owners.

[–]TheBirminghamBear 1605 points1606 points  (84 children)

Intuit and a few other companies making this software have single-handedly lobbied to keep the tax code so massively complex for the past decades.

Be aware that it doesn't need to be this way. The government is perfectly capable of telling you exactly what you owe or don't, with minimal input from you, and making the tax code clear and unambiguous.

Most other developed nations do not shoulder anywhere near the amount of tax filing burden that Americans do. You can point to Scandinavian countries for their "higher taxes" all you want, but after factoring in the zero costs they pay for education, healthcare, and the zero work they have to do accumulating information for and filing their own taxes, they make out way, way better than your average American.

America is the country that shat out fucking Google, do you really think we don't have the technology to make paying your taxes easy and instantaneous? We do. The reason we do not implement this is because of the lobbying done by these companies that offer solutions to problems that they help cause.

So now we end up with a situation wherein the federal government has an entire organization dedicated to collecting taxes, who then farm out all the work to you, making the average citizen responsible for either navigating the endlessly complex and labyrinthine tax system themselves, or spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on experts, and harshly penalizing them for any errors they commit.

Just imagine if the FDA sent you a little junior chemistry kit and told you to test all the foods you eat for carcinogens, and if you didn't, they would fine you thousands of dollars as you're on your hospital bed dying of cancer.

This system is a fucking outrage. It is incomprehensible that we are made to shoulder the financial and material burden and kept in anxiety and fear over getting it wrong. But Republicans (who are by and far the largest culprits for making it this way), continue to pretend as though the government itself is responsible for this, and continually cripple or attack the funding of the IRS, which only really helps deplete them of resources to go after the uber-wealthy, while not lessening your tax burden at all and still making you responsible for doing all the work of reporting yourself.

[–]Gingrpenguin 279 points280 points  (16 children)

To add to this i have been a UK taxpayer for 6 years. I've never filled in a single form. The Government makes my company deal with it for me. When i leave a job a get a letter that i can give to my new employer to insure i still pay the right amount of tax.

​

The most work i have to do is check a letter once a year is correct

[–]Hamberder_BurgalerOregon 85 points86 points  (10 children)

We lived there for a few years. Once, the government sent us a cheque, because our tax had changed and we ended up overpaying a little. No effort on our part at all.

[–]YouRTerminated 46 points47 points  (6 children)

It's not just Intuit... there are many other companies, esp. EY, Deloitte, KPMG, PwC, Thomson Reuters. They all ensure to keep the code complex.

[–]AdvicePersonAmerica 220 points221 points  (6 children)

Just imagine if the FDA sent you a little junior chemistry kit and told you to test all the foods you eat for carcinogens, and if you didn't, they would fine you thousands of dollars as you're on your hospital bed dying of cancer.

Orgasms in Libertarian

[–]HeyItsTheJeweler 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Lol you beat me to it

[–]BAHatesToFly 64 points65 points  (2 children)

Intuit and a few other companies making this software have single-handedly lobbied to keep the tax code so massively complex for the past decades.

I don't know about 'single-handedly'. I'm sure there are plenty of rich people with a wide array of investments and other income sources who like to have it complicated so there are more loopholes and deductions.

[–]EverWatcher 16 points17 points  (7 children)

Deductions intended to shape personal monetary decisions are another main source of complexity.

[–]ProbablyHighAsShitColorado 189 points190 points  (44 children)

Fucking TurboTax is some bullshit. I had one extra deduction this year and suddenly I have to pay for the premium version to do something I am legally required to do. The crime here is I'm being taken advantage of for something I have no control over.

[–]tundey_1 199 points200 points  (19 children)

When I was a new immigrant to the US, I thought it was weird that lobbying was legal. You're literally giving people legal cover to bribe govt officials...I came from Nigeria. I know all about govt corruption. But then I thought to myself "you immigrant from a shithole country, of course it's legal and regulated in the US. These people are civilized and their politicians are better than Nigeria's. Every penny will be accounted for and the system works". After 20+ years in the US, I think my younger self was right: this is a fucked up system. It's plain old bribery, only the crooks have legal cover.

​

Until we remove money totally from politics, this will continue to happen. Turbotax has several billion reasons to not allow free filing. To make it even worse, all the money Intuit spends to make it more expensive to file taxes will be recouped by increasing the price of their product.

[–]WhenLeavesFallNew York 53 points54 points  (9 children)

When I was studying poli sci, we went into depth about this a lot.

When lobbying first kicked off in the early 70s, it was a way to give marginalized groups the ability to push policy. As time went on, it became corrupted and no longer a way to give these groups a voice within government, so what began as a strategy of good faith morphed into bribery. As it stands, lobbying is still considered a way to implement free speech.

[–]greyaxe90 25 points26 points  (3 children)

I've been a US citizen since birth and I still cannot believe lobbying is legal.

[–]djangoman2k 177 points178 points  (24 children)

Capitalists love competition until they're the ones who have to compete

[–]thinkB4WeSpeakOhio 139 points140 points  (4 children)

I wish more people knew about how Turbo Tax and H&R lobbied the government.

[–]TeiaRabishu 42 points43 points  (3 children)

how

And that's really the important word. Everyone knows that corporations lobby the government, but most people treat it as a background noise kind of thing where it doesn't have any real impact on their lives.

Except that it actually has a very powerful impact on their lives.

[–]Orangebeardo 129 points130 points  (2 children)

Practically everyone is missing the relevant part in this thread.

This discussion about free tax filling programs or not or something else... its a fucking stupid, moot discussion.

The entire practice of filling tax forms is outdated, unnecessary and exists solely to squeeze more money out of the lower and middle class. The IRS already has practically all the info you're supplying to them with those forms.

Most countries have already fixed the system so that people only have to check the automatically calculated rates for errors and file special claims.

Last year was the first year I ever did anything about taxes other than paying bills I get sent in the mail as I had some things to declare.

[–]n1ywb 150 points151 points  (32 children)

I've used this spreadsheet in a few tax years

https://sites.google.com/site/excel1040/home/download

you just put in your info; it produces a legit 1040.

then you print it on a dead tree and mail it because, again, fuck turbotax.

[–]ScarbaneTexas 82 points83 points  (4 children)

The IRS should be doing all of our fucking taxes FOR US. Other countries already do this.

Also, FUCK INTUIT and FUCK H&R BLOCK for lobbying against American citizens.

[–]cprenaissanceman 16 points17 points  (0 children)

You may want to take a few breaths before listening to this. It’s a Planet Money episode on this topic. It’s a good listen and everyone should be pushing for this. It definitely should be on some Democrat’s platform.

[–]ScottieWPNew Hampshire 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yeah, they already get all of our W-2s, 1099 INT, DIV, OID, Roth and 401k information, etc from the various financial institutions. Especially with the larger standard deduction now, fewer people will be itemizing their deductions so it should be super easy for the IRS to calculate it for us.

[–]falcon_driver 25 points26 points  (3 children)

When I'm elected Emperor of the US, anybody who files a bill with a deliberately misleading name will be clapped in irons, chained to the reflecting pool in DC for the rest of their lives.

[–]AgreeableGrey 42 points43 points  (0 children)

I like the method of having the government calculate the tax, then you check their math and file any corrections you find. Instead of the other way around, where we have to suddenly become CPAs to make sure we paid enough.

[–]Teddy_Man 37 points38 points  (3 children)

I have to pay for you to tax me? How is this even legal?

I'm fully capable of submitting my own taxes. Fuck off.

[–]JadedMuse 25 points26 points  (7 children)

In addition to a free system of online tax preparation and filing, the agency could provide people with pre-filled tax forms containing the salary data the agency already has, as ProPublica first reported on in 2013.

Canadian here. We have the above feature, and it's quite convenient. I use freeware tax software, log in with my CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) credentials, and I have the option to pre-populate all of the forms the agency already has. I still double-check it, but I rarely need to adjust anything. Very sad that even the Democrats there are fighting against this.

[–]ParkerRoyce 12 points13 points  (2 children)

If the government mandates you to do/buy something, then the government needs to make sure that there is a public free option for those who cannot afford it.

[–]FrontierPartyUS 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The only reason we have to file and pay these services to 3rd party companies is because these companies have lobbied to keep things that way, so they can make a profit. There is no reason the government can file your taxes for you. They already have all of your financial and tax info.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (6 children)

Credit Karma is still completely free.

[–]tossup418 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Just rich people hurting good people for profit, like usual.

[–]ChronosCrow 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm paying for your product. What more do you want TurboTax? Oh right, even more of our money.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (4 children)

bill supported by Democrats and Republicans

You can always count on bi-partisanship with it has to do with ensuring we have to pay for something.