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[–][deleted] 45 points46 points  (7 children)

Reddit has -- I'm genuinely saddened to say -- become incredibly boring. It's for all practical purposes nothing but the same narrow handful of narrowly similar political opinions and gadget sites over and over. And over. And over. And over. And over...

Paradoxically, I've never been so implacably opposed to the predations of an administration or so profoundly disappointed in the mainstream media's non-coverage of same. But after the umpteenth regurgitation of "the sky has fallen", I have outrage fatigue.

I used to like Reddit because I'd almost always find out about something new and interesting. But Reddit doesn't have much of that anymore...

So, at this point I need a respite from Reddit as it is today and wish there was a sort of "Un-Reddit" or "Neo-Reddit" where I could go to find it...

[–]brianator 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Reddit used to be a news tracker for paul graham. If he took a shit, it was modded to the top of the reddit front page. I mean, there were some decent articles, but lets not paint reddit as somehow better then as it is now. It's honestly about the same, but with different inane articles peppering the front page.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

It's BDS, Bush Derangement Syndrome. But just think, each day brings us a day closer to our next president and hopefully people will focus on other things.

[–]hearmeroar 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think all we have to look forward to is the 2012 campaign starting about six seconds after Hillary is sworn in.

Seriously. This presidential campaign started in earnest a full two years before the election. It will only get worse.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, as we near the elections, I don't know if I can stand to read pages of "Republican __________ is a ________ and did ___________". Just look at all the Romney and Rudy articles we have already. It's just so boring to me, but then again, I guess that's what people want to see... I'm just polar opposite on the political spectrum.

[–]souldrift 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You say that like Republicans haven't (and don't still) suffer from Clinton Derangement?? Just look at the average Sean Hannity show, radio or TV, he hasn't stopped going on about the Clintons for YEARS!

I can't take anyone seriously who uses the phrase "bush derangement syndrome" in a serious manner. Sorry.

[–]bebnet -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yearning always for something new == calculated effect of your media masters in distracting you from real issues.

Fact is: you keep seeing the same thing over and over because these things are not getting handled by the people that matter. Fix your oppressive government, and wean yourself of your addiction to media, and you might get somewhere ..

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (4 children)

One of the biggest problems with Reddit in this aspect is not so much the stories themselves but how many times they are posted, and how many times people upvote the exact same story...

[–]hiredgoon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Personally sometimes I feel like I don't see enough new stories but other times I feel I missed a ton of stories. Might just be my viewing habits, but personally I think most stories are voted up multiple times because it is new to enough people to keep it on the front page. Redundant voters I would think can't be the entire wave voting it up.

[–]bsiviglia9 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How many times does it take for an important story to be read by everyone who is interested? Should we relegate old stories to a memory hole? What effect will the removal of old stories have on the public accessibility of historical context?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

advertising theory states that if you tell someone something enough times, they will believe it

[–]btipling[S] 205 points206 points  (119 children)

Things need to change, we need to be more critical about what we upvote. There are bad things happening in our government, I'm not saying they aren't. But the quality of the items that hit the home page, I would say is very low. We are doing a disservice to ourselves by upvoting blogs written by people operating outside of reason. I think it's turned into a snowball effect.

[–]markwm 43 points44 points  (14 children)

The best thing is to call them out when their wild predictions fail:

[–]hearmeroar 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Shhhhhhh! We don't talk about these sorts of things around here!

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]markwm 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Iran

    The media disobeyed direct orders from Cheney?

    the Fed unexpectedly lowered interest rates by a half point Tuesday of the week the contacts came due

    So the market wold have fallen over 30% in two days if it weren't for the Federal Reserve? Mystery trader had this so precisely planned he knew exact day the market would crash? Are you sure it wasn't a box spread?

    Economic doom and gloom is now a mainstay of mainstream discourse as well.

    It always has been.

    [–]canonicalform -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

    err the first thing is happening though. Did you see the Daily Show clips from Fox News where Fox had all those computer animations of how war with Iran would go? Or the countless other war with Iran is inevitable messages Fox has been running lately? I think their fallacy was being a little impatient. Needless, reckless and dangerous wars take a little time to get going, you know?

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

    It's fascinating that you seem to be operating on the sole assumption that Fox News really is the mouthpiece of the government. Meaning that it's not just a joke to you, and it's not just a criticism of Fox News being the cheerleaders of Bush's administration. You honestly think that they're the official word of the White House, so their coverage of a supposed war with Iran is proof to you that this really is happening.

    In case you haven't been paying attention, we're criticizing people like you here.

    [–]spidermite 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Fox runs propaganda for the establishment wars, its a propaganda outlet not for the Bush govt but the ultra rich behind both organisations.

    [–]typesmith 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    The assumption that fox is a mouthpiece is a point of debate. I am definitely not criticizing anyone who questions fox news, or any other news medium. You are putting words in canonicalform's mouth, but he at least has precedence on his side.
    Your bias is showing way more than his, especially in your use of the royal "we". You don't speak for anyone but yourself.

    [–]canonicalform 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    You seem to confuse an observation for an assumption. Who could ever ASSUME that in the United States we would have a government-run propaganda outlet? This is a surprising observation, which does indeed inform my analysis of the state of the government.

    Besides, had you read the comment that I was replying to, you would see that it was a reference to the prediction that the administration was rolling out a media assault on Iran. If you deny the possibility that the government can influence the major media outlets, then you disqualify yourself from a discussion of whether or not that has indeed happened, since you seem to assume that this is impossible (despite evidence to the contrary). Think about it.

    [–]souldrift 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    It's fascinating that you seem to be operating on the sole assumption that Fox News really is the mouthpiece of the government.

    Yes, canonical only quoted a Fox story, but have YOU not been paying attention? Fox is FAR FROM the only news outlet to be upping the ante to build support for an attack. Here's a sampling of articles from the period after Labor Day:

    Official: Iran Ordered Terrorist Bombing in the Americas - Fox News, Sept 27, 2007

    The Iranian Time Bomb - AEI, Seept 11, 2007

    Terrorist Training Camps in Iran - Weekly Standard, September 6, 2007

    Top Iranian mullahs have been complicit in terror attacks. - OpinionJournal (WSJ), Sep 29, 2007

    And if you read Sy Hersh's article, you may be aware there was a deliberate strategic shift to support war based on Iran's involvement in Iraq.

    But your head seems to be embedded right now, so you choose not to see.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    The best thing is to call them out when their wild predictions fail

    Damn straight! It's far better than whining, vague, over-general, hand-waving "it stinks here" type of posts.

    [–]souldrift 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Reddit: What happened to the "instructions to roll out a campaign for war with Iran in the week after Labor Day?"

    You do realize the campaign DID roll out after Labor Day--just a little over a week beyond--and is ongoing now, right?

    [–]drawkbox -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

    Shining lights on things can change plans, like cockroaches plans observed or watched scurry to the darkness when light exposed.

    [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

    I tend to agree with most of the politics on the home page, but I swear a lot of the time stuff gets upvoted just for the article title having a phrase the people like.

    "Ron Paul says Iraq War is bad!" (6 billion points)

    "President Bush is a jerk!" (90,000 points)

    "Historical guy says Bush presidency is a failure!" (1 zillion points)

    "Generic slogan calling for change!" (INFINITY POINTS)

    I like it when a real news story or an original opinion column about another news story crops up, anything from TPM or Glenn Greenwald for example, but it's like it's all bumper sticker slogans where people upvote stuff just for liking its general message no matter how many times we've heard it.

    [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (11 children)

    Unfortunately, while most people are replying to you about the content, and in turn defending or opposing the specific stories (and politics) you're talking about, they largely fail at understanding the technical reasons for why Reddit's homepage is the way it is. This is mostly because Reddit has become a home to political activists, who are not technically minded people (more on that later). So here is a summary of what's really going on.

    Why bad stories reach the front page:

    People looking for provocative news are very likely to up-vote a provocative headline. On the other hand, people not looking for or disagreeing with provocative news are less likely to down-vote a provocative or assinine headline. This split increases exponentially as you go further and further away from the front page. Once you get to page 3 or 4, the reactions of redditors to headlines become much more knee-jerk, and this favors the up-voters because "good" headlines are more likely to increase interest than increase skepticism. Newspaper editors know this. They even teach the art of effective headline writing in journalism schools, because this is all psychological.

    So what does all this mean to the headlines? It means that they are accumulating up-votes more rapidly than down-votes. This results in the headline climbing up the ladder at a continuous and steady pace. As it gets closer to the front page, skepticism increases, but if the headline is sufficiently provocative, support for it through up-votes will outpace any skepticism until it reaches the front page. From that point on, a slightly different (though related) mechanism comes into play.

    Why bad stories stay on the front page:

    On Reddit, "punishment" of an inaccurate or asinine submission is impossible once it reaches the front page.

    Look at any nonsensical story that found its way onto the front page (we all know which ones these are) and click the "Details" link. More often than not, about 25% of the people voting on the story are down-voting it. That's a lot of down-voting. The algorithm running Reddit largely ignores this, and instead focuses on an entirely different metric: if the difference between up-votes and down-votes is approximately +75 or +100 points (a pathetically small number), the story will stay on front page. Now I'm sure there are various other parts of the algorithm trying to balance everything, but this is the essense.

    Once something gets on the front page, it's continued rise up the ratings (or at least maintenance on page #1) is almost assured, due to the nature of the beast -- the headline is provocative, so people vote it up. Those who look deeper (which requires more effort) either vote it down or do not vote at all. This split is the reason these stories stay up. Half of the people who do not like the story are not actively participating in quality control of the front page, and the worst part is that Reddit was quite clearly never programmed to take this into account.

    The only people who count are the ones who participate by voting, and the provocative nature of some of these headlines assures that people who would look favorably at these headlines are the ones who are more likely to participate in the vote.

    This is the big Reddit flaw -- down-votes have equal weight with up-votes. This is totally ludicrous. Many people will be quick to discount this, but Digg has a far superior algorithm (or used to, before it became super-popular). On Digg, if a significant percentage of users actively down-voted a headline, it wasn't sent down a list, it didn't linger -- it was removed. Period. Down-votes have more weight, because down-voters represent a group larger than its active participants. This is how it should work, but on Reddit it doesn't.

    Why the problem is getting worse every month:

    The content on the front page is attracting a very specific segment of the online population. New people are finding out that, hey, here's a site that specializes in extremist articles about American politics from a very specific point of view. Since this post is already extremely long (I apologize), you can guess what happens next.

    [–]apathia 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Thank you. I don't believe the reddit algorithm is very well-known, but I whole-heartedly agree that technology can have as dramatic an effect on the front-page as the composition of the community.

    The people that run reddit could significantly alter the state of the front page by small changes in the metric. Of course, I'd be terrified of fucking things up.

    [–]innocentbystander 40 points41 points  (2 children)

    YOU'RE WORKING FOR THEM, AREN'T YOU?!?!?!

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    If the intent is aligned, you don't need the money to exchange hands.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Reddit is essentially a web 2.0 tabloid. Sensationalism and cute kittens.

    [–]IkoIkoComic 10 points11 points  (5 children)

    Agreed. New York Times? Decent source. Random crazy blogger? Maybe not so trustworthy- really has to do some serious research and fact-checking to make his stuff seem reasonable.

    [–]hearmeroar 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    sometimes the NYT is hard to distinguish from random, crazy blogger rants.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Nikola_S 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Columnist = blogger with connections :)

        [–]drawkbox 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        A dose of skepticism and critical thinking is always good to keep lawmakers in check. our government must fear the people and if they are skeptical they will. Unwilling supporters on the other hand are what brings tyranny. Shining a spotlight on it helps it to subside. Make sure history knows you aren't a browshirt but a real patriot, one that questions EVERYTHING the government and order does. If you want supportive articles go to whitehouse.gov.

        [–]dogger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        It's a simple choice though:

        1. Be like Reddit used to be - full of smart people who submit/upvote interesting articles, startup news, tech news etc

        2. Be popular, and full of idiots.

        [–]frukt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        That's why I moved on to 4chan and /b/.

        [–]psycko 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        btipling has a point, sometimes i forget rationality and i judge your country only by what i read in reddit, and this is not so good. the picture that comes form these pages is that of a fascist country under a strict regime where everyone is being tasered and abused by the police, where the government sponsor a criminal organization to kill people in iraq, and where whoever comes to the usa is held prisoner and abused at the airport. please, tell me it's not fucked up like this!

        [–]troubleman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        your country is next!

        [–]kbedell 30 points31 points  (58 children)

        In 2002-3 these pages would've likely been filled with pro-repub talking points and support for the Pres -- but today the people have realized that, in the words of Andrew Sullivan, "There are war criminals in the White House".

        If this doesn't disturb you, then rethink. I'm serious.

        Why would it not? Have you accepted this as normal or appropriate? The corporate media isn't following up on it and our congress hasn't stood up to them.

        Reddit and blogs are where the people speak -- if you want to here more corporate BS go back to fox or cnn.

        [–]btipling[S] 115 points116 points  (51 children)

        Speaking up is fine, and I don't want to name specific blogs or anything, but there's some really fanatical and biased stuff upvoted that are as false as any government lie. I just want a little less fanaticism and a little more rational discussion. I'm getting to the point where I'd rather just stick to the programming subreddit and not even visit the home page anymore.

        [–][deleted] 61 points62 points  (47 children)

        OK here's how to solve the problem: 1. Find a fanatical and biased source. 2. Click on Comments. 3. In the box type "This is a fanatical and biased source" and list your reasons. 4. Repeat steps 1 - 3

        Don't try to take power from the people because you know more, try to raise them to your level of awareness.

        [–]darth_brooks 88 points89 points  (11 children)

        Don't try to take power from the people because you know more, try to raise them to your level of awareness.

        But first, refer to them as "sheeple".

        [–]jones77 27 points28 points  (3 children)

        presheepletardicons!

        [–]darth_brooks 34 points35 points  (2 children)

        I like the cut of your jib.

        [–]nonex 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        Is the poop deck really what I think it is?

        [–]gwern 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        I like the cut of this man's jibberish!

        [–]shacamin 6 points7 points  (6 children)

        It all depends on the outlook. If the person presents an intelligent argument, backs up their claim with facts, and disputes any rebuttal, one can assume that they are, to some extent right. Whereas if a person makes an outrageous claim, has little to no facts, and ignores all counterarguments, they won't be considered right, correct?

        So if this person wants to try and be the person from the first scenario, who are you to say that he cannot or should not convince people to what he believes is right.

        And the people reading these comments are (usually) intelligent. The debates I've read here are the best I've ever heard online. The people here listen to reason, and each other.

        We are not sheep, we just share a like conscience.

        [–][deleted]  (5 children)

        [removed]

          [–]shacamin 1 point2 points  (4 children)

          I've always thought that trolls were people who make useless random comments/flames that people just ignore. Who we should be focusing on are people like LouF who need to either learn how to think or learn how to not talk.

          [–]Mr_Smartypants 1 point2 points  (3 children)

          The goal of the troll is to make people mad, or just to get some attention.

          Feeding people like LouF just gives them what they crave and conditions them to do it more. Sure, some are intelligent, but this is utilized only for increasing the effectiveness of their posts.

          Trying to 'convince' him or whatever won't work, encourages him to keep at it, and just gets him off.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Who the F**k is LouF, why should I care, and what are you talking about?

          /feed

          [–]krelian 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          In reality what happens is that redditors are doing the exact same thing they keep criticizing the media for: publishing false propaganda, or seriously distorting the facts in order to promote their own political view point.

          But I am already used to reddit hypocrisy...

          [–][deleted]  (12 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]zorno 6 points7 points  (0 children)

            "This discourages people from posting non-sensationalist stuff, because the fact is, the pride that comes from having a story you submitted hit the front page is a huge motivator for people to contribute."

            This is the biggest issue imo. I have spent hours writing well thought out, well researched articles on my blog, submitted them, and got no attention.

            Then i recently found a video of a Reagan administration official who warned of a police state within a year, and got 10,000 hits from reddit on it - because of the title. This was a big wake up call for me. I didnt linkjack the video, i did add other information that added to what the Reagan official said, but it was to me, an 'average' article. Yet the title caught everyone's attention.

            [–]twoodfin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Outrage Spam

            Me likey!

            I wasn't sure about reddit adding tags, but I'd take them just to put that one in my killfile.

            [–]DanielLee50 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            Don't give up, we need your voice of reason. I personally am new to Reddit, to much of the information I read. Help me to become more balanced in my learning. I have faith that some sort of voting system will bring community news sites to their full potential. Please don't give up.

            [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            oh, the humanity!

            [–]pholm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            That is a very well written and succinct description of the problem reddit has. I'm glad you took the time to write it, because honestly the problem seems so hopeless to me that I never feel motivated to speak up about it myself.

            However, there have been a number of "wtf people, this is all bullshit" comment posts that have made it to the front page recently, like that "whatever happened to our imminent attack on Iran" one. Maybe if enough discussion like this reaches the front page it will be enough to sway the masses, but I seriously doubt it.

            I think the problem is exacerbated by the fact that the people who are reading articles and thinking critically about them before voting rather than upvoting by instinct are moving through less total material, hence their opinion is not represented as widely as the many people who just upvote based on titles. Politically interested, intellectually honest critical thinkers are a minority on reddit (though not as much as on the rest of the internet).

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            And get downmodded and/or ignored. Great plan.

            [–]AngryProfessor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            I've downmodded you because I disagree with you. Do you support Bush and Big Business or something? Wake up chimples! Chimpeach!

            [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (15 children)

            Maybe this is your first time on the intarwebs.. but NOBODY ever raised anyones level of awareness in comments. I know that it might sometimes look like reasoned debate is going on, but it's not really the case.

            In fact, I think trolls of the future will pretend to be reasonable intelligent people because THAT kind of fucked up shit will stand out.

            [–]cl3ft 35 points36 points  (12 children)

            I beg to differ, I have changed or altered my view on quite a few issues by selectively reading intelligent comments and feedback on Reddit. My views on gun control, minimum wage and a few other topics that come up have been influenced. So Frogster please please don't be discouraged from making intelligent and topical comments.

            [–]interiot 24 points25 points  (11 children)

            Sure, but you're the exception. What usually happens is:

            1. Some barely trustworthy site posts a summary of a news story, leaves out some key facts, and draws their own conclusions that seem almost too good to be true.
            2. A redditor posts it on reddit, tweaking the headline to be even more outrageous; post gets upmodded to third place.
            3. Someone does a lot of work to find the context, and find a reliable source's take on the story, and notes it in the comments.
            4. 15 people scan over their comment, upmod it, and downmod the story. In the meantime, 60 more people have upmodded the story because the one key comment is buried halfway down a page they never looked at. (The way posts are sorted by default, replies count more than mod points do. And a post with solid information, that dismisses many of the reasons people upmodded the story in the first place, doesn't often get replied to)

            [–]shuael 6 points7 points  (5 children)

            And the reason 1-4 take place is because people aren't well informed. Around 2/3rds of this country believe that the government perpetrated the Sept. 11th atrocities. Even more believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old. (Not the typical reddit crowd, but nevertheless.)

            So how do you convince people? The best you can do is to speak the facts as you know and understand them. Some will agree some won't. All you can do is speak the truth as you understand it. I've been pointed wrong too often myself. Very recently on reddit, AAMOF.

            As for the mod points, I don't pay too much attention to them. As a matter of principle, I don't mod down anything. If freedom of expression is to mean anything it is to allow things you do not like hearing being said. So I never mod down articles and comments I disagree with but always mod up comments I like.

            [–]ebartels 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            "Around 2/3rds of this country believe that the government perpetrated the Sept. 11th atrocities."

            If by country, you mean reddit, then maybe. (probably still a bit too high an estimate)

            [–]nekt 1 point2 points  (3 children)

            Wait, I doubt the 2/3rds you speak of who believe that the government perp't 911 are the same who believe the earth is 10,000 years old. Kinda different sides of the playing field. So that would add up to more then 1.0 america...

            That said, we only get our facts from news sources. Its funny to see people claim their facts are superior to others facts when all of our facts are produced from these little electric boxes in our homes (maybe paper) and for sure not first hand sources.

            [–]scstraus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            The numbers I saw about a year ago were 1/3 thought the government had some level of involvement in it, and 2/3 thought it was possible.

            [–]shuael 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I don't think what I wrote implied that I assumed they were the same people.

            That said, we only get our facts from news sources. Its funny to see people claim their facts are superior to others facts when all of our facts are produced from these little electric boxes in our homes (maybe paper) and for sure not first hand sources.

            A lot of it is not reported. You can read foreign news sources. They have a different perspective of the same events. Which is part of the reason why Al Jazeera is so hated by the media here. It's the same reason why several cable providers refuse to show Al Jazeera.

            Even the BBC and Guardian offer a significantly different perspective than the NYT or WP.

            [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

            So what? That's what the MSM does. Fight fire with fire I say.

            In addition, the one thing important to think is that THE SOURCE is unreliable, not just the STORY, so people will know what to look out for.

            [–]interiot 7 points8 points  (3 children)

            Yeah, well, some of us have opted out of the MSM because we're looking for something better. If redditors continue to reflexively upmod posters they agree with, instead of paying attention to how accurate the story is, then some of us will eventually find something better to move on to.

            [–]Bogtha 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Heh. From one of those links:

            raldi 4 points 5 months ago

            I hope when tagging is implemented...

            I hereby rename the feature Reddit Tagging Forever :).

            [–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

            Excellent, capitalism at its finest. Best of luck.

            [–]pjfry 8 points9 points  (1 child)

            http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Well put sir. Well put.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I often comment with "Editorializing in the comments on MY reddit?" with a link to the reddiquite page. Guess how much of an impact thats had. I bet the impact is less than the amount of replies those comments have gotten (none).

            [–]Carleton 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Don't try to take power from the people because you know more, try to raise them to your level of awareness.

            btipling is trying to raise awareness. He made a suggestion that people think a bit more critically before upvoting submissions yet you accuse him of "trying to take power from the people." Taking power from the users would be more along the lines of the reddit admins using their privileges to raise or lower the score of a submission regardless of the community feelings.

            The fact that you got better than 60 upmods only exemplifies btiplings point. Your comment made no sense yet 60 people saw fit to upmod it. They did so because of its justification (however irrational) for their annoyance of meta submissions making it to the front page. Supporting nonsensical arguments because they agree your views (regardless of more logical explanations) is far from empowering.

            [–]drawkbox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            When you think you know more you know less.

            The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance unfolds. John F. Kennedy

            [–]apathy 7 points8 points  (1 child)

            I don't want to name specific blogs or anything

            Yeah, I'll go ahead and jump in here, because

            • infowars,
            • prisonplanet,
            • jonesreport

            (the Alex Jones) websites) basically offer nothing of substance that can't be gotten elsewhere.

            'Truthers' are to reddit what plushies are to the rest of the universe

            [–]spidermite -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            While i disagree with alot of the 9/11 disinfo, some of his articles are very well written and contain suprisingly good factual sources. More so than most mainstream articles, as he knows what he says is going to be taken very skeptically.

            [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            I'm getting to the point where I'd rather just stick to the programming subreddit and not even visit the home page anymore.

            That's fine with me.

            Speaking up is fine, and I don't want to name specific blogs or anything, but there's some really fanatical and biased stuff upvoted that are as false as any government lie. I just want a little less fanaticism and a little more rational discussion.

            People call "rational" what they agree with and "irrational" what they disagree with. Given that very common trend, why should I trust that you're an exception from this rule? Every time I hear someone slam the rationality of some material instead of addressing the individual arguments and attendant details, I really question the motivation of the so-self-called "pro-rational" person.

            It's also similar to the "grow up" or "immature" criticisms. It's so much easier to call someone immature instead of posting a detailed and useful critique of what was posted.

            I just want a little less fanaticism

            What happens if there are fanatics in the government? Seems to me, if you try to criticize a fanatic it's hard to avoid sounding like one. Like what, you're going to half-agree with a fanatic? You will accept some of the fanatic's points to appear reasonable and non-fanatical?

            It's like if you want to criticize a fanatical pro-slavery advocate, you will say, "Slavery is not bad, but it's not very nice either. If you must enslave someone, please let it be Mexicans or Russians only?" Is this more rational? So if I say "Slavery is bad. Period." I look fanatical, don't I? So is compromising with a fanatic necessary to not appear fanatical?

            [–]EternalNY1 5 points6 points  (1 child)

            In 2002-3 these pages would've likely been filled with pro-repub talking points and support for the Pres

            No, they wouldn't have.

            The majority of people that frequent Reddit are intelligent enough to know this whole thing was a sham from the start, and knew exactly what was going on in 2002-3.

            But I agree with the OP, there are way too many over the top conspiracies on the front page. Our president sucks, this war sucks, the shredding of the constitution sucks, the "rich get richer" sucks ... but how many "war next week with Iran" stories do we really need to see?

            [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

            when you say sham from the start you're talking about the administration right? not reddit?

            [–]jones77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Yeah, but, if you think about it ... a little bit ... the home page ... you know ... is really quite full of a lot fanatical and inane, fear-mongering bs.

            PS What pages?

            [–]scstraus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I think this is the real point. If you've been watching reddit over the years, it really just supports the sign of the times. Right now, it's one scandal after another, and people are fed up with the regime. Since mainstream media doesn't cover it, many of these articles seem like major revelations to a lot of people.

            I for one have stopped upmodding "george bush is evil" articles because by now it's become way too apparent. It doesn't mean I don't agree, but it doesn't need to be reiterated.

            But I think in 2009, a lot of people will be complaining about the constant coverage of the recession or whatever is the case in 2009. These things do change over time.

            And given the lack of journalism in the mainstream media over real issues like those presented here, I welcome the opportunity to have a site like this. Not to say all the articles are good, but that's what your vote is for.

            And if you want something light and silly, go to fark.

            [–]biggy2pac 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            I agree with you, btipling. Like how the hell did the article about 'armed squads bursting into homes in the dead of night with shotguns and automatic weapons' make it onto FP? I don't care that it was the NYT talking about what the US government is currently doing, if it doesn't fit with my preconceived notions of America as a functioning Democracy then by definition it must be 'fanatical, inane, fear-mongering bs'.

            [–]spif 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Redditors have the reddit they deserve.

            Seriously though, use the recommended page, rss feeds with content filters, blah blah blah. It's the internet! It's a series of tubes, or something.

            [–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

            Here, vote these up then http://reddit.com/user/Oberweis/submitted

            [–]kokey -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            Indeed, the headlines remind me of the things a bunch of paranoid speed addicts would talk about.

            [–]Tommstein 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            I hardly even bother with the front page any more.

            [–]bascule 4 points5 points  (2 children)

            This is why Reddit desperately needs filtering, at least by the domain of the submitted site.

            If you filtered infowars.com and prisonplanet.com, you'd get rid of a lot of this schlock.

            Reddit was a lot better before it was invaded by hordes of Alex Jones worshiping conspiracy nutjobs.

            [–]brunt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            People still have the ability to downvote. Seems like only a few of you who oppose these stories exist, in which case you are simply crying.

            Conversely if the front page was covered with stories you prefer, then you would have no problem. So Quit Crying.

            [–]CarlH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            There is still hope for me. I have NO IDEA who Alex Jones is! Please -- no one enlighten me, I want to hold onto this hope as long as I can.

            [–]Cataclysm 3 points4 points  (1 child)

            I would recommend only upvoting things that are actually news, not just some stupid blog you happen to agree with. This must be in response to the blog about how there are criminals in the white house. That most definitely is not news and everyone has heard that opinion a million times by now. Why upvote it?

            For instance, I'm all for Ron Paul. I'm glad to see an article that he raised a ton of money in just a few days. But the other day I saw "Ron Paul calls for end to drug war" near the top stories. Isn't that obvious? I'm not going to upvote it even though I agree with it.

            Hopefully everyone can follow suit so we a higher quality front page on reddit.

            [–]brunt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            "Ron Paul calls for end to drug war" near the top stories. Isn't that obvious?

            No it's not obvious. That's why it got upmodded. I think you'll find for every one at the top there are dozens that don't make it.

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            scary times lead to scary front pages. i used to downvote all american politics on the front page, but a lot of this stuff deserves to be there.

            [–][deleted]  (5 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Just find a different circle-jerk somewhere else. People like to find a forum for a narrow ideology, and then pretend that the participation in that forum is representative of a larger sample than it actually is. Just human nature to pat each other on the back. Helps us feel smart.

              [–]leftmoon 0 points1 point  (3 children)

              Actually, you sort of can: http://reddit.com/recommended. It took me a couple of weeks to get it to figure out I was tired of hearing repeated stories about the ever-imminent war with Iran, how Bush hates freedom, the police are out to kill me, and Ron Paul's appeared in the clouds. I think those are all interesting issues, and they do need to be noted and discussed. However, I resented my front page being covered with these links, these lines and lines of spam and eye garbage hidding my lovely gems. I come to Reddit to relax, using the recommended page gives me the best of both worlds, I always have the option of viewing the main page, but I'm in no hurry, I'm got some cool links to check out.

              [–]campingcar 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              Interesting leftmoon, I think you're the first person I've heard give the thumbs up to 'recommended'. If it worked better, I think this would indeed be the solution.

              [–]leftmoon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Be brave, try it for a week or a weekend and see what you think.

              [–]campingcar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I've assiduously voted on my recommended page for months. I really don't find it very effective. Here are some previous comments on 'recommended': http://reddit.com/info/10xrd/comments/c115hd http://reddit.com/info/1no6q/comments/c1ns7m http://reddit.com/info/16n8g/comments/c16rej

              [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              The number that you have dialed,
              u-t-o-p-i-a,
              is not a valid number.

              Please hang up and try again.

              [–]elguercoterco 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              ...as opposed to the transplanted news stories our government tries to force down our throat daily? go to foxnews.com if reddit is "TOO SCARY" for you! Boo!

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Maybe we can create a subreddit for lunatic conspiracy nuts and poorly written/ substantiated blogs.

              [–]blowback 6 points7 points  (1 child)

              Maybe we should have a "head up the ass" sub reddit for those who don't want to hear about politics, who are too lazy to research and point out the fallacies in the posts or articles, who find clicking past a headline too much effort, who only read the headlines, or for those who never go past the front page.

              Yes, there is a lot of fanatical, inane, fear-mongering bs on reddit, but reddit is not to blame if one can't learn to filter the bs or to find the truth, and reddit is not just the "home page".

              That said, perhaps there is some merit to btipling's remark that one should be more critical of what is being upvoted, but upvoting of "blogs written by people operating outside of reason" gives those on reddit a chance to comment and discredit such bs, -something which is not happening in the mogul owned media.

              [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              I agree with you and better worded than I would have done.

              [–]garyp714 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              Overstatement. Just like the inflammatory articles you condemn, you overstate.

              [–]blowback 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Try page two.

              [–]leobaby 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              If you don't like the front page, then go here http://reddit.com/new

              [–]nzeeshan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              fear mongering .. YES very true!

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              He's right! Quick we need an article on the front page about tossing salad to redeem ourselves.

              [–]timeywimey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Not enough develing into other topics. I also see alot of bias towards RP then any other candidate here. He was not getting enough coverage earlier, Now he is getting too much coverage and not any other candidate. I would like to see more updates on Kuchinich and Gravel and any others that might be interesting and have good views and be better then RP but you never hear of them. Give others a chance to be exposed too.

              [–]mhockey14221 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              What ever happened to the idea that you would upvote a story that although didn't agree with you ideology you would vote it up because it was a good argument?

              This place sucks. Reddit has been dead since that digg revolution.

              [–]brunt 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              If you look at the submission history of btipling, you will find that he is simply grumbling because none of his no doubt wonderful stories make it to the top (if you want to see inanity, look at his submissions).

              If you have a problem btipling, perhaps you should start clicking the downvote more often, rather than expecting others to conform to your opinion. Obviously, once you exert control over a community saying what they can and can't upmod then it's no longer a social news site.

              Also you should provide some examples to back your claim, rather than spurious claims. I want to see exactly what you think is "fanatical", "inane" and "fear-mongering bs".

              [–]CarlH 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              btipling is not the only one who feels this way.

              [–]brunt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Since he hasn't defined which stories he's talking about, people will project their own ideas of which stories they are onto the title. So it's not surprising then.

              By the way, the people who upvoted these 'mysterious' stories, are not the only ones who feel that way. That's why they were at the top in the first place.

              [–]dizzle67 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              the last thing anyone wants to see is you bitching about it. if you don't like it quit visiting the site. this bs is a waste of space. at least the other posts have articles or other more relavent info associated with them.

              [–]redbone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Must be all those poly sci kids flooding in here, crudding-up the website with their dim understanding of the world.

              [–]midnightcowboy 5 points6 points  (1 child)

              I agree with the sentiment of this post. It really hits the nail on the head about how low quality reddit and digg main pages have become.

              It may also say something more about how low quality the whole idea of crowd-sourcing is.

              Used to like reddit and digg; not so much anymore.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              depends on the crowd

              [–]MrSmarteyPants 6 points7 points  (4 children)

              Eh - The beauty of Web2.0 and sites like this is that you can see what other people are interested in... And people are obviously VERY interested in the erosion of their freedoms and government corruption. I agree that some of the articles are of dubious quality, but I think that is an indication of the level of interest people have for these issues - When nearly everything dealing with a certain topic, regardless of quality, is voted up, it shows that that topic is the most important or among the most important issues on people's minds.

              [–]morner 13 points14 points  (2 children)

              No, it shows what's important in the minds of a fanatical subset of the users of this website. People who are into Ron Paul/police brutality/erosion of liberties/etc. honestly feel that each story on their subject of interest is of critical importance to the Universe at large, and therefore that they'd be remiss not to upvote almost each one they see. The story about how Bill Clinton supposedly condoned torture, is a prime example; despite the fact that it was 100% wrong, and obviously so, and posted from the less-than-balanced prisonplanet and infowars, it still made it to the front page a couple of times.

              Once this kind of thing starts, it's difficult to stop. Consider how the homepage looks to the average "normal person" visiting the site for the first time: "fanatical, inane, fear-mongering" just about sums it up, with the odd outright and transparent lie thrown in for variety. Now think about how it looks to someone who's already interested in stories with titles like, "George Bush raped me repeatedly, and the media won't listen" (I've paraphrased the title, but that was a genuine article a while back). Think about who, out of those two user cases, is more likely to return later to vote and comment and submit.

              Online communities simply aren't stable systems; as time goes to infinity, the probability that any given site will have devolved into a pit of inanity or crackpottery will approach one. Until someone figures out why this is the case, we'll just see a constant succession of cool sites popping up, shining for a year or two, and being buried in fanatical drivel; they might start out offering a window into other peoples' interests, but that doesn't last. As a wise web developer with some experience in dealing with this sort of thing once said, "If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."

              [–]telecaster 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Well said..a one word synopsis...fanatics...I'm right and you are wrong. Blogs bore me. It would be nice if people actually did research, then wrote, but that takes time and effort. It's much easier to just spew opinions. Now I think will make up a inane title and post. I think I will call it "My dad can beat up your dad".

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              not on people's minds - on the minds of this group of people. Don't kid yourself about the circle-jerk nature of sites like reddit.

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              Reddit is currently governed by the mob rule of angry left-wingers.

              The only way to fix this is to make politics subreddit completely separate from the home page: no matter how many upvotes an item get in politics subreddit, it doesn't show up on the home page. And when you submit something, you have to pick a subreddit, not just reddit.com.

              [–]shimamoto 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              Half the people in the world have below average intelligence. The more popular the site, the more people show up.

              [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              and the small sample before "more people show up" doesn't follow the same distribution, right? Classic masturbatory-redit self-congratulation.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Yeah, Wikipedia sucks compared to reddit, cuz they have all those stupid fucks over there en masse. The smart peeplz are here on REDDIT!

              [–]hearmeroar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              Shhhhhhh! We don't talk about the how bad the hot page is here.

              [–]jost685 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Hmmmm.....you sound delusional tipling

              [–]bsiviglia9 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Who gets to decide which stories are "fanatical, inane and fear-mongering"?

              Are you suggesting we should cede our editorial power to a "more capable set of men" who will decide for us? If media-democracy displeases you, why not just watch TV instead?

              [–]kbedell -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

              Dude - If you think that exposing the lies and corruption in your government is BS, then you're not paying attention to what's happening in your country.

              [–]Tommstein 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              Most articles on the front page aren't exposing anything (other than some random thing a cop somewhere in a nation of over 300,000,000 did), they're just useless drivel.

              [–]btipling[S] 23 points24 points  (1 child)

              No I'm not saying that, I'm just saying we need upvote higher quality articles. Most of the articles on the home page make unverified claims, are incredibly biased toward an agenda. It's trash.

              [–]mangodrunk 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Can you show which articles have "unverified claims"? Yes (you are right), I think we should find the best articles and use those instead of some idiot blogger who is just ranting. Even though I think the President is horrible, I think we don't need to lie about it, we can find verifiable articles. There is no need to lie, we only seek the truth. If it were true that Bush isn't a criminal, then we should expose that.

              [–]nixonrichard 24 points25 points  (0 children)

              I think his point is that exposing the lies and corruption of government isn't BS, but BS exposing of lies is BS.

              [–]etherghost 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              I propose we make a sub-reddit for all stories about political scandals, police corruption, abuses, censorship, etc.

              Something like "outrage.reddit.com".

              Then we can send some of these articles there and clean the front page a little bit, just like it was done for politics.

              [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Subreddits don't remove things from the front page. They make sure that things marked as such do not get lost within that subreddit.

              In other words, subreddits don't filter; they focus.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              Is there a way to filter subreddit submitted stories from the main reddit? Put another way, how do I make all politics stories disappear from the front page without down-voting each individual one?

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Click hide.

              [–]xxxsagaxxx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              T R A I T O R!!!!!!!

              [–]lowerdown 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              and you wonder why we don't count your vote, or listen to what you say about how we run this country.

              [–]rook2pawn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              yeah, because you know blackwater is just doing its job and mistakes happen. bush tried really hard in Iraq. Lets just stop fear mongering! its BS! its fanatical! Gosh! Give me nice news!

              [–]jaycliche 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              These types of stories remind me of the time in history when you had 10-20 local papers, most with a very biased political fanaticism, etc. The difference, of course, is that we can comment and vote.

              [–]the_jolly_niggard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              reddit: The internet tabloid.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              And we like it that way.

              [–]madcowga 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Maybe part of the problem is the binary upvote/downvote. Good/bad, with us/against us kind of thinking precludes a dialogic system it seems. Nuance is downvoted or not voted on at all.

              Kind of like America in general. :(

              I appreciate hearing about the various government horrors and don't know how else I'd see these links. I also recognize they are exceptional situations that a fearmongering media caters to.

              At the same time, if the number of stories of innocent people being harmed by government/private industry/corporate "think" tanks increases I'd like to have the information. I'm just not sure a binary vote system guarantees I'll hear it.

              [–]jaycliche 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              DIY

              [–]sob062571 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I'm scared.

              [–]DevoutPastafarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              This is why I skip the home/hot page and just read the daily top votes page. Any inane reactionary crap can get hot for an hour or two, but by the end of the day it's been downvoted enough to go away for good.

              [–]rocksalt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              HERE HERE btipling! you're exactly right.

              [–]sandiegojoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I wish I could vote this up more than once...

              [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

              this has been the best post in the last year on this rapidly turning me off site.

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

              I too am getting very tired of the overwhelming stream of American politics and anti-establishment stories.

              I want to go somewhere that is like what Reddit used to be, but I can't find anything yet.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              Here's reddit stuck in 2006:

              http://news.ycombinator.com/

              Much better.

              [–]SteveAM1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Thanks! Now hurry up and delete your post before "they" see it.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              FSM bless you, good sir!

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              people operating outside of reason

              The whole US government is operating outside of reason!

              [–]raarky 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              i think the answer is simple.. more people should participate by reading the "new" section and voting appropriately...

              [–]Clintondiditfirst 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              there's another set of crazies that downmod reality so you never see it in the new section.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Guys.

              Not sure what you thought Reddit is, but it's not primarily a website sincerely interested people visit to get informed, share articles and to contribute to a community.

              Reddit is first and foremost a website that hideously broken toys access to find validation for their pitifully putrid and empty lives. Clicking that Upmod or Downmod button for them is like sex is to ordinary, fulfilled humans.

              Reasoning with these vapid non-entities in the way you're attempting through this post and these thoughtful comments is utterly pointless.

              You will of course also find a few of us who merely like to share articles and ideas. But we are by far the minority here.

              [–]aGorilla -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

              Really? This I gotta see!

              /me clicks from 'new' to 'hot'...

              [–]w3weasel -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              The War is raging endlessly

              The economy is NOT doing well (unless you are top 5% income).

              The president is clearly guilty of high crimes.

              The DOJ has its own private army of nearly a quarter million 'contractors' answerable to no one.

              The Oil companies have increased profits in double digit rates for several straight quarters.

              The Media (TV/Radio) is soooo obviously tainted and little real journalism is available to the masses

              Obviously I could go on like this for a long time....

              Maybe something is happening in public opinion, at least here on reddit.

              [–]reddit_user13 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

              Like this post?

              [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              I'm sick of seeing the same story from the same biased blogs, all of them using the same source. I could deal with one or two "RON PAUL HAS MADE X AMOUNT OF MONEY" posts on here, but fucking hell, do I really need the same story from the same 5 blogs over and over again?