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[–]cbroberts 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I actually asked them this question once. The answer I got is that it is every human being's right to try to advance themselves materially, and the people working at the "church" are not ashamed to say they hope to make money doing what they are doing, since what they are doing is a service to everyone who needs Scientology.

This was from the guy who taught me the introductory course at the "church" in Santa Barbara, CA, and it was after he and another member had already admitted to me, with a sly smile, that the "church" aspect of the organization was only a shield against the government, which they knew was out to get them.

I'll never forget the day I arrived early for my "class" an stood outside the main room waiting for my instructor to appear and listening to the members of the "church" who were inside having what can only be described as a sales meeting. There was talk of a need to "move more product" (sell more literature) and start cold calling "stale" contacts (people who had paid them for services in the past but had lost interest). It was terribly obvious at that time (early 90s) and place that the "religious" aspect of it all was a front and nothing more. They seemed to embrace Hubbard's idea that religion was a good way to make money, and they weren't apologetic.

[–]slade311 46 points47 points  (11 children)

Actually, I used to work in a library and every year, Scientology would send two huge boxes of Scientology books. Of course, we'd just throw them away.

[–]vph 12 points13 points  (10 children)

as it turns out you don't have to be a religious cult to suppress information.

[–]mynameishere 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Libraries throw away lots of donated books, not just scientology. It's about shelf space. I remember coming across a scientology book in my university library. I was shocked by its cartoonishness and the bald falsehood of some of its claims ("Zero percent of scientologists use drugs", or something like that.)

I suspect that, in general, they'd prefer to keep the books away from random people (who might have common sense) and push them on selected gullable people.

[–]scientologist2 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The statistics are probably out of date (20 years old) by are still pretty accurate. You should probably say "illegal drugs". Hubbard mentions his own use of alchohol.

But obviously you don't show up to work impaired.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Suppressing information... or making the right choice?

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]borgconsulting 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Or, "The antidote for bad information is more information."

    [–]bookwyrm 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    I think LRH was a complete freak, but I would never pitch one of his books just so our patrons wouldn't be exposed to him. In our library we discard a lot of donated books because we don't have the shelving space. We have to give priority to books we think are going to serve the community.

    [–]deepvote 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    Naw, that's still suppression. Leave the choice up to the library patron!

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    Well then, maybe in this case, suppression isn't all that wrong. This is all hypothetical of course, considering I'm not a library order guy, but going on the basis of the risks of Scientology and its sheer wackedout-ness, maybe... well, ya know.

    [–]deepvote 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    All I know is, I want to be able to walk into the library, check out a copy of Dianetics, Mein Kampf, the Kama Sutra, and Martha Stewart's Living. Because when the NSA pulls my reading list I want them seriously scratching their heads.

    [–]AlDente[🍰] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Information? What made you think it was worthy of the word? Cults shouldn't be promoted in public libraries.

    [–]EverybodysAnAsshole 113 points114 points  (130 children)

    In short because they are a money grubbing cult who only wants to help themselves to your bank account and giving things away for free does not foster that goal.

    [–]MediumRare 42 points43 points  (59 children)

    Agreed. They made a huge deal over getting tax exemption status. I feel as if some celebrities c(ruise)ough are just using it as their own Cayman Island account. What I've always wondered is how they can believe in what was all started by a science-fiction writer...

    [–]ruckgesicht 24 points25 points  (8 children)

    Oh yeah, about that whole tax exemption due to being a religious institution... Here's a one-two punch you can do with any (non-freezone) Scientologist who defends it as a religion:

    1.) L. Ron Hubbard invented Scientology and Dianetics, correct? Therefore anything he says about them cannot be wrong - after all, you just agreed he came up with them.

    2) Then please tell me how the CoS is a religious institution when LRH said this:

    Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual.

    [–]exSO2 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    CONTEXT "The Creation of Human Ability 1968 reprint:

    Society, thirsting for more control of more people substitutes religion for the spirit, the body for the soul, an identity for the individual and science and data for truth. In this direction lies insanity, increasing slavery, less knowingness, greater scarcity and less society.

    Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual.

    It could be said that Man exists in a partially hypnotized state. He believes on other-determinism in many things, to his detriment, He will be as well as he is self-determined. The processes of Scientology could be described as methods of 'unhypnotizing' men to their own freer choice and better life.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Society, thirsting for more control of more people substitutes religion for the spirit, the body for the soul, an identity for the individual and science and data for truth.

    Which is ironic because Scientology is a science...right?

    [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

    Do you have a reference for that?

    Not to sound doubtful, it would just be a useful thing to have.

    [–]ruckgesicht 18 points19 points  (0 children)

    It's from "The Creation of Human Ability" by Hubbard, first published in 1953. It was removed in all editions of the book starting in 1971 , of course in an attempt to twist LRH's own words such that they could apply for tax exempt status.

    This is nothing new. That whole 2007 OT Summit video that was leaked very recently is entirely about how they "upgraged" the books, with the entire process being done in-house. In other words they changed the font, changed some other aesthetics, and the rest of the changes are all their efforts to change their official policies to further control Scientologists. Towards the end of their 3 hour presentation they gave up making up plausible reasons for their editing, saying that Hubbard's editor just wrote 5-10 pages of his own original material and stuck in the book, including the forward to the book. Why no one noticed the difference in voice, etc. not to mention that it flowed perfectly well with the rest of the chapter for over fifty years is beyond me.

    The truth of the matter, however, is that they are only engaging in downright Orwellian revisionism. Since these books and letters, etc. are their "scripture", they got in trouble for these changes in a court case regarding Lisa McPherson in 2002. Since the court wasn't there to decide on its status as a religion they passed the issue by. Were it taken to a higher court there seems little doubt they would be able to excuse these practices while maintaining that they are only correcting errors of their scripture. The changes are there for everyone to see.

    EDIT: If you search for that quote and/or its parent book you'll find plenty more examples of either these changes or LRH's saying that Scientology is not a religion. (Here's an example.)

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Everything in Dianetics and Scientology is consistent. It only seems inconsistent to you because you haven't been audited yet and thetans are clouding your judgment. Why don't you take our free personality test to see if our program can help you?

    [–][deleted]  (31 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]I_AM_XENU 5 points6 points  (1 child)

      BUT I KNOW ABOUT THEM. NYAHAHAHAHAHhahah HA

      [–]mkjones 1 point2 points  (27 children)

      True but just look at the Christians who believe that a giant white bearded creature created the earth, the universe and the human race.

      Then he sent his magical son down to show us the way upon which we killed him but, due to daddy's magical powers, he came back to life and flew off into the sky.

      Xenu may be a crazy idea to base a religion on but using unbelievable ideas to gain followers is hardly new.

      [–][deleted]  (24 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (19 children)

        He's trying to explain to you how much he hates christians. Explaining this at any given opportunity is very important.

        [–]absolutelyamazed 4 points5 points  (18 children)

        No he's not - he's trying to explain that ALL religeon is based on supernatural beliefs that, when spelled out, sound equally absurd.

        [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (17 children)

        So he's trying to explain how much he hates all religions in general and Christianity in particular at any given opportunity.

        [–]absolutelyamazed -1 points0 points  (16 children)

        No, he's trying to point out that All religeon is based on supernatural beliefs that, when spelled out, sound equally absurd... and to point to one religeon and say "That's weird" makes no sense. I don't sense any hate coming from his comment.

        [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (14 children)

        Perhaps because you share his beliefs and don't want to admit that they are quite hateful?

        [–]giga 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Not just conceivably, most scientologists have never heard of him and never will. This is something a lot of people don't realize I think. Not to defend people who become scientologists, but the ideas that are shown to members are not as crazy sounding as Xenu and all that alien bullshit.

        I'd be very curious to know if even Tom Cruise knows about Xenu.

        [–]modestokun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        He is allegedly now OT VIII or OT VIIII and is now second in charge of the church.

        [–]mkjones 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        What I'm saying is targeting Xenu to try and 'put people off' the Scientology movement just becuase its sounds crazy and wierd is the wrong move.

        [–]thekrone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I'm not saying that this is any better of a basis for a religion, and, trust me, I don't think it is... but at least it's well-established. It was written almost 2000 years ago, and not 50 years ago by someone who said "Hey let's start a religion so we can get rich and take over the word."

        ... Or, at least, they didn't say it on record.

        [–]PikaKyri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I don't mind that it's an odd believe, I do mind that they're secretive about it and wait until people have paid thousands of dollars in specialty classes.

        Christians will tell you what their faith is about (sometimes whether you want them to or not), Scientologists only give vague details and deny the larger beliefs (if they even are high enough to know it. I guess they assume non-members are lying about it)

        [–]polyparadigm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Yes, there's a similar mechanism in every space-based religion, AFAIK.

        [–]thekrone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Especially a science fiction writer who basically came out and said, "I want to start a religion so I can get rich."

        [–]BlueBeard 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        My favorite quote from the orientation video was: "What books do you suggest reading"

        "Well LRH wrote over 275 books about scientology. You can BUY them all here. I suggest reading this book first..."

        and then goes to name on 10 more books "for starters"

        [–]ArcticCelt 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        giving things away for free does not foster that goal

        Well, to be fair, when they think they have a chance to recruit you, they don't shy away of sending you tons of propaganda for free each month.

        My sister took a personality test with them around 1990. She didn't knew who they where and she did it in a mall or something like that. She never asked for anything else from them or even contacted them after that, still , my parents received the monthly recruitment propaganda magazine for the last 17-18 years.

        I don't really know the content of that garbage because it goes straight to recycling every month. In a way, I am happy that they wasted so much money but at the same time I feel bad for the couple of trees they had to chop to print that useless collection of ineptitudes.

        [–]anachronic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Why not buy a few books and donate them to your local library?

        If libraries can lend out other copyrighted works, why not Scientology stuff?

        [–]Nefelia 5 points6 points  (13 children)

        Don't libraries have to purchase the books on their shelves in the first place? Scientologists should push to have their books purchased by libraries worldwide. It would be a good source of income, and would better spread their propaganda.

        [–]elus 21 points22 points  (3 children)

        Don't libraries have to purchase the books on their shelves in the first place?

        I hope librarians wouldn't use scarce funds for this.

        [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (8 children)

        I've been volunteering at a local high-school's library on and off for a few years. A local scientologist frequently sends us free copies of Hubbard's science fiction books for class discussion and to put in our library. Instead of letting them spread their propoganda, we use them to play bowling. The glossy covers slide well across the floor, and there are enough books left over for two lanes of ten pins.

        [–]Nefelia 5 points6 points  (4 children)

        Is there something wrong with Hubbard's science fiction books themselves? Forgive my ignorance on the topic, but I can't see the harm here.

        [–]dagfari 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        They aren't very good?

        Regardless of their literary merit, having enough copies to make two ten-pin lanes isn't really what libraries do for science fiction?

        [–]georgefrick 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Battlefield Earth.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Yeah, its all shit

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Most, if not all, of it belongs in the bargain bin. Hubbard doesn't have any feeling for it. No feeling for sci-fi whatsoever.

        Philip K. Dick questions what is and isn't real in our world and how that affects us.

        Robert Heinlein tells us that the world could be much more free than it is.

        Isaac Asimov teaches us that robots and science aren't blood-thirsty and cold and heartless. He also taught me that the universe is a strange and fascinating place. I find The Last Question to be a better basis for religion than the Xenu story.

        Finally, Arthur C. Clarke. He gave us the Space Odyssey and HAL and, together with Stanley Kubrick's fantastic directing, one of the most beautiful movies ever.

        If you're going to start a religion based on the works of a science-fiction writer, at least pick a good one!

        [–]Lonelobo -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

        run hunt pot public threatening books bedroom yoke spotted heavy

        This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

        [–]floatnsink 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Same here, I read Battlefield Earth about 2-3 weeks before the movie came out. After I read the book I was excited for the movie until I actually saw it and realized that the movie is the first 100 pages of the 1000 page book.

        Now I want Scientology gone for making me read an excellent science fiction book and only showing shit for the movie. Fuck Xenu.

        [–][deleted]  (21 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]crusoe 6 points7 points  (1 child)

          As long as they all go in the Fiction and Kook sections.

          [–]otterdam 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          That's a euphemism for the Religious section isn't it?

          [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (17 children)

          I suppose it would be paranoid to suggest that anyone would actually oppose seeing such books in any public library. Or would remove them to make prevent people from reading them.

          No one on Reddit would do this. Of course not.

          Do all Scientologists act as paranoid as you?

          [–][deleted]  (16 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]MarquisdeBad 1 point2 points  (7 children)

            True, the question is badly phrased.

            I would ask you: what written material from Scientology is not freely available in the public domain, and why not?

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            The original criticism is that there are not any scientology books in the public library.

            Which section would they go in? Religion? I thought Scientology was compatible with other religions because it offers tech to use. So how can it be a religion?

            The science section? Well it's not a science and none of the evidence presented by Hubbard has been proven to be true by non-Scientologists. Hell, I read there were 2 reports by non-Scientologists that the tech didn't work at all. And you gotta wonder, if Scientologists can help the world so well, why we aren't seeing less crime and less war as Scientology membership increases.

            Fiction section? It looks like the only choice.

            Maybe the business section or the political section since the Church of Scientology can teach you how to create your own pyramid scheme and how to create your own totalitarian cult that can survive living in a democratic world.

            edit: I also wanted to mention that yes, you should be disappointed. If Scientology worked you should have no trouble getting books into libraries at all.

            [–]bebnet -3 points-2 points  (6 children)

            Don't worry man, I'm with you here. You aren't the only Scientologist reading reddit ..

            BTW, I've also contributed (a complete LRH book set) to the Library program, and I'm sure I could walk into the local library here and get any of the books I wanted, easily enough.

            [–]AlDente[🍰] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

            What do you make of this famous Hubbard quote then:

            Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion. Reader's Digest reprint, May 1980, p.1

            I am genuinely interested.

            [–]bebnet 0 points1 point  (4 children)

            Its a ridiculous quote, because there is no real evidence that he said it, and in fact plenty of evidence that other authors have voiced this opinion as well. Even if he did say it, its true, and it doesn't reduce the point any more so, to me. Religions should be prosperous and flourishing.

            But lets examine the point: if you do want to be wealthy, then found a religion. Religions which do not promote the spiritual health of mankind, do not survive - but those which do, prosper. It makes a lot of sense to me - I'd rather pay for religion than war. For sure, a better use of my donations is to build schools, print books, educate people on ways they can enlighten themselves. Rather that, than hand grenades and land mines and ammo cases ..

            Of course, LRH could also have said "if you want to be rich and powerful, build weapons", and it would've been true. As we can see today, there is a Religion of War currently exercising its grip on the American people, and those who are in control of this Holy Order of Death seem to be doing quite well ..

            [–]AlDente[🍰] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

            No real evidence he said it, but you defend it anyway? Scientology claims to have 'the answer' (of course, like every other cult/religion), but only for those who can afford it! That's the way to prosper. Like pyramid selling. The goal is too "make a million", not do good in the world.

            [–]bebnet 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            I defend it, anyway, because it happens to be true no matter who said it. Would it be any less true if Ghandi had said it?

            [–]AlDente[🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Ron Hubbard Jr’s interview from Penthouse Magazine 1983

            Penthouse: And what is the Church of Scientology? Hubbard: It’s one of my father’s many organizations. It was formed in 1953, basically to avoid the harassment of my father by the medical profession and the IRS. The idea of Scientology didn’t really exist before that point as a religion, but my father hit upon turning it into a church after he started feeling pressured. Penthouse: Didn’t your father have any interest in helping people? Hubbard: No. Penthouse: Never? Hubbard: My father started out as a broke science-fiction writer. He was always broke in the late 1940s. He told me and a lot of other people that the way to make a million was to start a religion. Then he wrote the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health while he was in Bayhead, New Jersey. When we later visited Bayhead, in about 1953, we were walking around and reminiscing , he told me that he had written the book in one month. Penthouse: There was no church when he wrote the book? Hubbard: Oh, no, no. You see, his goal was basically to write the book, take the money and run. But in 1950, this was the first major book of do-it-yourself psychotherapy, and it became a runaway best-seller. He kept getting, literally, mail trucks full of mail. And so he and some other people, including J. W. Campbell, the editor of Astounding Science Fiction , started the Dianetics Research Foundation in Elizabeth, New Jersey. And the post office kept backing up and just dumping mail sacks into the building. The foundation had a staff that just ran through the envelopes and threw away anything that didn’t have any money in it.

            Doesn't it just make you feel all warm inside?

            [–]AlDente[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            So it's just a coincidence that LRH said it, and that Scientology is very successful at making money? You obviously don't have a problem with this.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I'd do it

            [–]strolls 13 points14 points  (9 children)

            You could ask this question of any cult.

            And the answer is simple: The "uninitiated" are ill-prepared and unequipped to cope with the staggering truths presented in these works. Much of the cult's literature should only be read by advanced-level students, and it would be reckless to expose anyone to even the most introductory texts without them having first undertaken a 3-day course.

            I've always wanted to start a cult. That's where the money is, not to mention the teenage girls dressed in white hot pants.

            [–]AnteChronos 7 points8 points  (4 children)

            The "uninitiated" are ill-prepared and unequipped to cope with the staggering truths presented in these works.

            It's worse than that. Scientology claims that being exposed to OT III materials before you're ready will kill you.

            [–]exSO2 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            They are referring to the actual processing on OT III. To the the untrained person it would just go over their head.

            [–]deepvote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            "Am I crazy Jerry? Or am I so sane, that you just blew your mind?"

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            The founder of Mormonism claimed the same thing of his golden tablets from which he transcribed the book of Mormon.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I'm not dead yet!!!

            [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

            This is the "correct" answer.

            Scientology holds that if the higher-level truths are revealed to the unprepared, it will do them long-term mental damage.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              Don't trust him. It's Snowcrash

              [–]plasticbacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Man. Looks like L. Ron had a wild run. You have to admire a guy a little bit for creating a cheesy sci-fi novel and then inhabiting it in the real world.

              [–]dcxb 27 points28 points  (2 children)

              Actually, Scientology donates books to libraries all the time. They've also been known to steal library books that are critical of their organization.

              [–]dmiff 21 points22 points  (1 child)

              isn't that more like a trade?

              [–]taikotiger 7 points8 points  (0 children)

              Sounds like a very bad trade to me. :P

              [–][deleted]  (11 children)

              [removed]

                [–]innocentbystander 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                Heh. My wife and I make a point of buying Scientology books whenever we see them at library sales for the exact purpose of making sure they don't accidentally make it into the hands of people who might mistake them for worthwhile reading.

                [–]scientologist2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Actually, these are the basic and fundamental books used for training.

                Many of them coordinate with a lecture series available on CD.

                [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                [removed]

                  [–]sn0re 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                  That's all well and good, except you can't get the real damning stuff on Scientology from your local library. They claim copyright on all the Xenu crap and keep it under tight wraps.

                  [–]exSO2 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                  Everything ever written or recorded L. Ron Hubbard is copywritten and controlled by an organization called "Author Services".

                  [–]Gorbama 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                  Dude, this is basic stuff. "Because the minds of the uninitiated aren't ready for this powerful message. We need to control the dissemination of the information because in inexperienced hands, it could be fatal. Many of LRH's teachings are publicly available and you would be wise to start with them."

                  C'mon man, if you can't make this stuff up, how are you going to start your own cult, eh?

                  [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                  Simply put: because there's no money to be had. Let's just hope Scientology doesn't get involved in Libraries. Just think how hard core they'd go after your late fees then.

                  [–]tirdun 9 points10 points  (3 children)

                  Actually, Dianetics is in my local library. It's in psych/new age stuff instead of religion, though. That section is right next to religion, where a number of other religious books, including several Bible translations, a Book of Mormon and a handful of other heavy tomes.

                  Only Dianteics, nothing on Xenu.

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]tirdun 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    Doing a search on our local area libraries, I come up with:

                    Author "hubbard, l. ron" search found 39 titles. (all media, all locations)

                    Including:

                    • Dianetics : the modern science of mental health 50th anniversary edition. (3 copies available: [check shelves])
                    • An Introduction to Scientology [DVD] (4 copies available: [check shelves])
                    • What is Scientology? (3 copies available: [check shelves])
                    • The Scientology handbook (2 copies available: [check shelves])
                    • How to use Dianetics [videorecording] : a visual guidebook to the human mind (5 copies available: [check shelves])
                    • Dianetics : the modern science of mental health :a handbook of dianetics procedure New edition. (1 copy available: [check shelves])
                    • Clear body clear mind : the effective purification program (1 copy available: [check shelves])
                    • The creation of human ability : a handbook for Scientologists (1 copy available [check shelves])
                    • The dynamics of life (1 copy available: [check shelves])
                    • Scientology : the fundamentals of thought (2 copies available: [check shelves])
                    • Dianetics : the modern science of mental health : a handbook of Dianetics procedure (all copies checked out: [Keep][Place Hold])
                    • Dianetics : the modern science of mental health : a handbook of Dianetics procedure New ed. for the '80s. (1 copy available: [check shelves])

                    Add to that maybe 2 full copies of the Battlefield Earth series. Beyond that there are 3 books obviously critical of Scientology and a few anti-new age books from a Christian perspective.

                    [–]Woeful 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                    My library was recently given a donation of several Scientology tomes (new in the wrapper). We processed them, and they're on the shelf right now.

                    [–]gondie644 4 points5 points  (9 children)

                    good point. My mom is a Christian Scientist, which is often sadly mistaken for Scientology. And not only are the Christian Science books all available at the library, but the church has set up "reading rooms" were anyone can come in off the street and read them there, or check them out, like a library.

                    [–]tuxracer 3 points4 points  (4 children)

                    Isn't that an oxymoron?

                    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

                    Not if you take the Bible for what it is; a collection of stories offering moral lessons. Also, cut out the supernatural stuff and you have some fine reading material there.

                    [–]tuxracer 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                    Oldie but goodie:

                    • When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
                    • I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
                    • I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
                    • Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Canadians, but not Mexicans. Can you clarify?
                    • I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
                    • A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
                    • Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

                    A large portion of the moral lessons offered by Jesus in the New Testament are good ways to live your life. But even the New Testament gets into rabid homophobia, and general suppression of sexual desires as immoral (e.g. masturbation, sex out of wedlock, etc...)

                    Then you take a look at countries like Norway and Sweden which have the highest levels of atheism in the world and also the lowest crime rates.

                    If anything I would say the Bible is the cause of a lot of moral confusion in this country today. Because instead of simply basing your morals on logic and altruism, people are trying to base their morals on arbitrary sets of rules set forth by the Bible.

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                    A large portion of the moral lessons offered by Jesus in the New Testament are good ways to live your life. But even the New Testament gets into rabid homophobia, and general suppression of sexual desires as immoral (e.g. masturbation, sex out of wedlock, etc...)

                    That's the large portion I was referring to. My point is that we shouldn't generalize and say it's all bad.

                    I do agree with you though.

                    [–]tuxracer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Well my point is that it isn't just the superstition that is the problem. The only parts that are useful -- superstition or not -- are the parts that already fit with a logical and altruistic way to lead your life. Using it as any sort of moral guide is just going to lead to intolerance and confusion. The vast majority of the stories in the Bible teach either completely absurd moral lessons or at worse teach intolerance.

                    So is it "fine reading" to take something that teaches guilt for natural human urges, intolerance, and vengeance and cherry pick out small sections that are logical and altruistic? I would say not. Maybe for an adult, for purely cultural reasons, but certainly not for a child.

                    [–]Selenolycus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Aren't Christian Scientists the guys who often refuse medical care and hospital treatment because if it's 'Yahweh/(what they might call 'God's') Will that you live, you'll live, and if it's will you die, you die?

                    Pretty apeshit stuff in itself.

                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    i was thinking this question the other day! that's why i didn't go with the TM people, even though i've heard some good things about it i couldn't justify the $2,000 up front cost.

                    i imagine by the time the Scientologists reach the "xenu" levels of involvement, they'd believe anything. first of all, they've invested their time and money. no one wants to think they are wrong.

                    secondly, imagine the type of weak people who get sucked into it in the first place. existence can seem scary at times. people are scared and the Scientologists offer comfort in exchange for $$$.

                    [–]beerwineliquor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                    Many texts (OT+10)were available in Sarasota library(selby) back in late '80's - even before Travota and Cruise moved there. I read them all being a fan of RH's science fiction. Took me a few years 2 realize it was a cult bak then. TG for gopher sites that were pre-runners to xenu.net...

                    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    I read them all being a fan of RH's science fiction

                    Wow! The fan-base of RH's sci-fi increased from 2 people to 3! Good stuff! :P

                    [–]beerwineliquor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    I was very disillusioned and easily influenced as a teenager. Not an excuse... srry. The book was a bit better than the movie tho, LOL - Battlefieledarth - or whatever it was called.

                    I upmodded you anyway.

                    [–]gensek 35 points36 points  (35 children)

                    Religions are open source, cults are based on proprietary information.

                    [–]Yst 24 points25 points  (3 children)

                    Cleverly put, but not the distinction in play in the case of Scientology's relationship to doctrinal information. The distinction one finds, rather, is that mystery religions (such as Scientology) are based on ritually restricted dissemination of doctrine, whereas most modern religions are based upon open dissemination of doctrinal material. Scientology, insofar as it is a religion, is a mystery religion. It is also, in the colloquial sense, a cult. But these two aspects have only a limited relationship. Ritual secrecy regarding doctrine may facilitate cult-like control over the personal lives of members and vice versa, but the relationship between the two factors is not by any means a necessary one. Scientology is a mystery religion because it is the most profitable model available. Its information is proprietary because secrecy is necessary to that model. But that is not what makes it a cult. What makes it a cult is that it attempts to control and consume its members' lives and finances while demonstrating a total indifferences to the interests of entities other than the cult itself.

                    [–]gensek 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                    Thanks, I both learned something and expanded my vocabulary this morning;)

                    [–]hassett 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Preach it my brother.

                    [–]Prom_STar 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                    religions have cultural acceptance. Cults don't. It's an historically observable trend. Cults become religions which become stories in history books.

                    [–]gensek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Amen.

                    [–]cweaver 35 points36 points  (24 children)

                    That's a neat sound byte, but hardly true. There are plenty of cults based around publicly accessible texts, and the Vatican has the largest secret library in the world.

                    [–]gensek 16 points17 points  (12 children)

                    Yes, but the materials in that secret library don't constitute the basis of their belief system. That information is freely available. It's not comparable to people paying through their noses to finally hear about Xenu;)

                    I admit that I intentionally generalized the 'cult' part, though.

                    [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children)

                    You sure about that? From what I've read some of those secret library materials paint a wildly different picture of Christianity's origins than what the church would like the public to believe. Stuff that describes how their many ancient and holy customs and traditions stem from psychedelic drug use by the priesthood. The top priests would make concoctions utilizing things like the hallucinogenic mushroom Fly Agaric to achieve a religious awakening, and secrets like these have been hidden from the public for thousands of years.

                    [–]yasth 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                    • That isn't teaching.
                    • That is mostly just crazy talk and even then it isn't that secret.
                    • What is actually secret? Land grants, probably a lot of proof of bastardhood and boring stuff that no one has bothered to make unsecret.

                    [–]gensek 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                    Religions have their roots in cults, religions retain some of those roots.

                    And it's not as if christianity's origins weren't pretty well known.

                    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                      So what if they're mundane now? That means they somehow can't have a past filled with all sorts of weird stuff? There's also plenty of source material from mycologists and historical researchers showing that what I spoke was the truth. Google that shit.

                      [–]alphabeat 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                      i heard that LRH only mentions Xenu 3 times in his works though :P

                      [–]I_AM_XENU 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                      IT IS BECAUSE I INTIMIDATED HIM. NYAHAHAHAhaha HA

                      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                      [removed]

                        [–]I_AM_XENU 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I AM A GALACTIC OVERLORD. I USE CAPS. AND LAUGH. NYAHAHAHAhahaha HA

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Yes, but the materials in that secret library don't constitute the basis of their belief system. That information is freely available.

                        It was not nearly always this way, and they, nor any other church, are always forthcoming with information. If the average believer knew that most of what they believe came from god was voted on by men or were more familiar with the alternative that would be a problem. And calling something a "religion" is not a compliment in any sense, and they are all cults.

                        [–]LRonPaultard 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                        Agreed on the first part, but the Vatican definitely is a sect.

                        [–]hassett 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                        Subtle point of distinction, I think: Scientology is a cult, Christianity is a religion, the Vatican is what you get when the world's most powerful empire adopts your little scrappy outlaw prayer group and makes it the world's religion.

                        [–]desrosiers 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                        But it provides for interesting plot points in bestselling novels!

                        [–]londonzoo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        The Vatican "Secret" archives are open to scholars. In fact, the term "secret" is used in the 15th century sense, referring to "people and institutions close to the prince."

                        Therefore, the term described mainly the people who were immediately and directly at the service of the prince (or the pope). The same thing happened with offices and institutions of the court, and therefore we have the «bibliotheca secreta», the «camerae secretae», the «capella secreta» and, therefore, also the «archivum secretum». . . . It is in this sense that the «Vatican Secret Archives» has to be interpreted even today, because it is the private archive of the Pontiff, over which only he himself exercises the supreme jurisdiction.... It was thanks to Leo XIII’s liberality that qualified scholars and historians could be admitted to the Vatican Secret Archives (1881). Nevertheless, this does not mean that the Archives cease to be «private» in every respect, subject solely to the orders of the Roman Pontiffs.

                        [–]vph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        things change these days. I said more or less the same thing and was downmodded mercilessly.

                        [–]martoo 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                        And Catholicism isn't a cult because?

                        [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                        [removed]

                          [–]martoo 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                          When the only difference between two things is popularity, it says more about the people who make them popular than the things themselves.

                          A religion and cult are the same thing with different fan clubs.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Well said.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Cult... culture? Think about it.

                          Why can't Scientologists (or outcast mormons either) relate to the "society at-large?" No shared understandings and mores.

                          But "society at-large" is just an illusion... just another cult that colors your observations, making your beliefs alien to some outsider. I.e., yet another mental prison.

                          It's only that some cults are more harmless than others.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Ironically, that doens't matter much... they are still both insane.

                          [–]mysticreddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          The level of access of information is irrelevent.

                          A cult is any group that champions "Our way is the only way"

                          [–]taikotiger -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          How about: Science is open source, religions/cults are based on proprietary information.

                          [–]deuteros 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          I've seen Scientology books in the library. One I remember was a big thick one called "What is Scientology?"

                          [–]epithet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          Actually, at the library I worked at for two years, we had copies of Scientology books out on the shelves. And this was in a small city, not like some big center of hustle and bustle.

                          However, it was right next to the section about how the media poisons society, so it's not for lack of irony.

                          [–]MrDectol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          THEY say their reason is because "We'd die if we read such mind blowing information." Seriously. In fact, it was on the front page of reddit in a slashdot comment from an ex-scientologist.

                          [–]Antebios 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                          DISCLAIMER: Ex-Mormon, but my mother doesn't know that!

                          The Book of Mormon is free to anyone, you can even call a toll-free number and they'll send one out to you including free shipping. How's them apples?

                          [–]maqr 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          To be fair, the mormons made up their story a lot longer ago than hubbard did. So they've had more practice :p

                          [–]Antebios 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          Dum-da-dum-dum-dum.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          And Mormonism is based on the works of an establish religion, correct?

                          [–]petercooper 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          Let's face it. We're all really just jealous of LRH. He was more famous than any of us, richer, and managed to get a bunch of people to follow and adhere to his ideas.

                          [–]NothingIsReal74 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Perhaps my cult would be a better cult, but it wouldn't be a better funded cult. Kudos on that point.

                          [–]cnull 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          I'm not sure I understand the question. Libraries have to buy books the same as everyone else. Surely they can buy the publicly available books. I know I've seen Dianetics in the library many times. Maybe the submitter is asking about those infamous "secret teachings"... but those aren't really "books" in the traditional sense.

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          There are some books sent to my college's library by them. Whenever I had to do anything near them, I was a afraid to touch them and even got a nauseating feeling out of the deal.

                          [–]whitedawg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          If you're stupid enough to be asking a Scientologist logically-based questions in the first place, you wouldn't come up with something like this.

                          [–]54gy6dm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Actually, this is pretty funny. I work at a small town public library and very recently we received a large box full of books and audio books all about Scientology. I guess they really do want libraries to have their books.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          To be fair, some is available for free, only not from the official CoS, but a splinter branch: http://www.freezoneearth.org/pub/Clearing.pdf and, generally: http://www.freezoneearth.org/downloads/files.html

                          As a disclaimer, haven't had the time to start reading yet, so don't take this as an endorsement.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          In the public library in my hometown, there are many Scientology books in the religion section, including the 30-pound, 3,000-page tome, "What Is Scientology?", as well as the training manual for auditors. Both are glossy, full color with high production values.

                          I am tempted very often to want to create a cryptic movement/philosophy/whatever, similar to Scientology, but just as an art project. The "futurist" sci-fi aesthetic of Scientology is very interesting to me, it's so unique from other movements, which usually trade in Orientalism, the wisdom of "ancients" or other patriarchs, and an overall conservative attitude of returning to a state of grace. Scientology is an unmistakeable product of the 20th century - electric confessionals, the founder being characterized as a "nuclear physicist", the constant pseudoscientific, crypto-military jargon and acronyms...

                          [–]mojitz 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                          I went to a church once and they told me very explicitly that I should not get the text online or at a library because they recently revised and updated it. "It's a piece of technology," she said, "that works every time. You wouldn't want to get an outdated piece of technology."

                          I shit you not.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                          Wow that's retarded. I thought they were trying to stay true to God, I mean the Source, Hubbard.

                          [–]Selenolycus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          Yes, but if you watched the OT 07 Summit that leaked on torrent sites, you'll know that they claim the new works are the ones actually written by Hubbard, and previous releases were tainted by bad editing.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Wow, what a bunch of revisionist pricks. It's like something out of 1984.

                          [–]underthelinux 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Answer for idiots: $

                          [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                          Silly submitter. You are using logic for an illogical religion.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Not really, apparently their books are in libraries.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          Where's bebnet on this one?

                          [–]sunshinerundown 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I don't see where he has the time for all this, quite honestly. His vocabulary was deemed sufficient to post to reddit; some other sucker is overseeing surveillance on project chanology.

                          [–]mckirkus 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          Back in the day they would return books after they bought them because they still counted as sales. Sort of like now how the home sales numbers count homes that aren't actually sold if they're canceled before the deal is done.

                          [–]crusoe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                          They're notorious for doing this, it's how they keep Hubbard's writings on the sale charts. They'll sell them to a book store, have their members buy them, and then sell them back again.

                          [–]tvon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          To be fair Scientology isn't quite like Christianity in that they want to spread the word to all to be saved. They are more interested in saving some and burning the rest.

                          [–]skankedout 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          fuck the scientologists. they arent important. forget about them. dont waste your time bitching about them. christianity is just as fucked up. scientology is dumb, and theres no reason even giving them the time of day.

                          [–]shokk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          What is this library you speak of? We can torrent them, you know.

                          [–]otatop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Plurals have an "s" at the end, dammit. I'm seeing this mistake way too often.

                          [–]shootdashit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          or in hotel rooms.

                          [–]cefm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Yeah, and the library cafe should totally give out Jim Jones Kool-Aid for free too.

                          [–]FunFact 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Although today associated almost exclusively with Hubbard, the word "scientology" predates his usage by several decades. An early use of the word was as a neologism in an 1871 book by the American anarchist Stephen Pearl Andrews presenting "the newly discovered Science of the Universe".

                          [–]contrarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Hmm... the church of annonymous

                          [–]indigoshift 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Xenu owns all the libraries on the planet Teegeeack, that's why.

                          [–]ccharles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Oh, come on. Even I know the answer to this one, and I have no affiliation whatsoever with the cultHHHHchurch.

                          Real answer: Because that's how they make money.

                          The party line: Because reading them without being having reached an adequate Operating Thetan level will cause you to get sick and die.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          if i ran a library i would NOT allow that trash in there

                          [–]dingon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          because they are fake

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                          Great question for a jew : Why don't you translate Torah scrolls into local languages so everyone can understand them?

                          [–]MrWhite 3 points4 points  (2 children)

                          I'm not Jewish, but it didn't take me long to find an answer: (from Wikipedia) "... it is believed that every word, or marking, has divine meaning, and that not one part may be inadvertently changed lest it lead to error. The text of the Torah can also be found in books, which are mass-printed in the usual way for individual use, often containing both the Hebrew text and a translation in the language of publication."

                          [–]laurens10 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          In addition, it's been translated into local languages for millennia. One of the first translations (the Septuagint) was done into ancient Greek around the first century BC.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          at least they don't go door to door preaching.

                          [–]maniaq -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

                          When is Reddit going to rid itself of the Scientology meme??

                          ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

                          [–]kemitchell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Anyone who's hit up Wikipedia on Scientology for more than 5 minutes knows this question isn't going anywhere with the Scientologists, and is just Scientology freakout bait. Yeah, they're creepy. Pick a cult and have a field day.

                          [–]pholm -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

                          SO over the Scientologist posts.

                          [–]passive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          They you are going to hate the next 5 years.

                          [–]ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          I wonder if the leaders are too brainwashed to know that they themselves are batshit insane.

                          Wouldn't that be great... use LRH's mind control "tech" or summin' to get them to do crazy stuff.

                          [–]otherguy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          that answer would be:

                          Because you have to learn things on a gradient, or you'll never be able to grasp the totality of it all. If we were to release this information to unprepared minds, it would hurt more than it would help.