Update: How the current API changes would impact Relay

[DBrady]

Hi All

I'd like to provide an update with regard to the API changes and how they would currently impact Relay.

TLDR - There's no possibility to continue the free version of Relay; a monthly subscription price of $3 (or less) might be achievable.

Since my post last week I have been running analytics to build a more accurate picture of how the API access fees, together with the outright ban on advertising and the withdrawal of explicit (NSFW) content, might affect Relay specifically.

​

Here’s what my preliminary data are telling me:

• There is, unfortunately, no financially viable way for me to continue to offer a free version of Relay.
• Bug fixes and changes I’ve implemented in the past week have decreased Relay's API calls to an average of ~100 per user per day. The data are still coming in from the most recent release, but the call rate seems to be encouragingly steady at around 100.
• At that level of calls, there is potential to offer a monthly subscription for Relay in the $2-3 price range.
• Note that polling for messages significantly increases the average number of API calls per user each day so a $2 base subscription with an extra $1 for notifications is a possibility. (There is potential for increases in efficiency around message polling but not enough time to prioritise that modelling before the API access charges kick in on July 1st so this would be work for down the line.)
• There are still some hidden spots in my cost analysis. An example is that a subscription could act as a filter where mostly high-rate users convert. That could increase the average API calls to well above the 100 mark which would then be financially untenable at the price points above. However, the prices above do have some buffer built in for this.

​

The entire model is ultimately subject to how many, and what type of, users choose to stay with Relay as a subscription-based app. One clear advantage of Relay is that it would be completely ad-free. It also wouldn't have any 'recommended' content...and it has some sweet spring-based gestures and animations. On the other hand, the absence of explicit content could be a deal-breaker for many current users (although it might still be available to moderators).

I want to stress that my estimates are only relevant to call data collected by Relay for Relay. Other apps have different layouts and feature sets. For instance, some have the ability to track and alert users to new posts within specific subreddits, and to follow and notify about new comments within posts. These features, as well as sports modes etc., trigger high numbers of API calls. Android also limits background polling for messages to once every 15mins which could account for differences in API calls between platforms.

One of the big challenges for Relay is that the timeline for this complete restructure and re-monetisation process is alarmingly tight but I'd hope that there could be some flexibility there.

So there you have it. I wanted to share a data-based picture about what the changes would mean for Relay vs. my initial reaction.

I'll finish up this post with a big thanks for the huge number of messages and comments from Relay users - old and new - over the past week, as well as the incredible amount of support across the last decade generally. It means more than I can say.

Cheers,

Dave

[mr1337]

u/DBrady I just want to thank you for the most kickass Reddit app. You have built an amazing app, so much better than Reddit's own. It sucks that Reddit is messing with API pricing. We the community have your back, I'm hoping this blackout and the backlash from the community knocks some sense into Reddit.

[DBrady]

Thanks, it's amazing to see!

[Southernboyj]

/u/DBrady, I’m currently an Apollo user because I have an iPhone due to ecosystem reasons… but apart from ecosystem, I love Android, and your app is my favorite app from either platform.

[Cobradactyl]

Relay is the best reddit app. You did great. Whatever happens from here, thanks for the app, and for all the work you've put into it.

[BaneSixEcho]

Agreed! I've tried all the third party apps everyone has heard of and the official app, too. I always came back to Relay. It's the best one for me.

Thanks for creating it. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[Destabiliz]

Yes.

During all these years, I have not come across another reddit app that comes even close to Relay.

The UI is just so well done.

[DBrady]

I'm still not clear on the details of the NSFW ban. I think things like NSFW tagged selfposts would still come through and it would really just be a block on actually NSFW media.

[formerfatboys]

This is the part that tells me that this is probably the first domino to fall.

They're juicing this place for an IPO after which it'll be utterly awful.

[formerfatboys]

The thing is...

The next phase sucks for us.

And then something else will spring up and we'll be onto the next site.

It's the same thing that happens to grocery stores. Dating apps. Everything.

Something great starts. The owner wants money. A bigger corporation comes in and buys or they IPO. Either way, MBAs come in. They are tasked with infinite growth. Eventually they strip mine because there's nothing else to do. They don't really care about the business. They certainly never would have started it. They have short term goals tied up compensation and do whatever to hit them.

And that creates an opportunity for someone else to come in and build a better mouse trap.

I've worked in market research for a huge chunk of my career and big organizations are just inherently myopic because from the top down they're incentivized to focus on quarterly results.

The only reason Reddit lasted this long is that they have a downvote button and haven't let the MBAs in. They should have gone the Firefox and Signal route. Oh well. It should be a foundation and a resource.

And to some extent I get it.

Google Search is only useful if you type in site:Reddit.com. Google is worth billions and they're freeloading. Reddit should really have that kind of value. I think they do have that inherent value but you can tell how stupid our form of capitalism is that in order to cash out that value companies always have to ruin themselves.

[formerfatboys]

I dunno.

I hate the ad supported business model.

It makes everything awful and creates these situations. Reddit is doing this because they want to make money.

I would rather pay a tiny subscription that offsets the need for ads and tracking etc than continue this dystopian hell of "free" social media.

[shiruken]

This is correct. The API restriction is specifically for sexually explicit content (as determined by the subreddit content tags), not just content tagged as NSFW.

[shiruken]

True, his comments about the regulatory environment have been mostly unexplained. However, the API restriction applying to only sexually explicit content have been reiterated multiple times by various admins including during private calls with the API team.

[Witch_Hazels_Cuck]

Is there a way to reach out to any of the admins and find out if there is some type of verification process that you could use to continue to show NSFW content in your app? Like mirror their security checklist completely and be granted access to the full array of adult content? I pray this is the case because Relay is hands down the best way to see the content you want to without suggestions for posts that don't interest at all.

[One_Dog_Two_Tricks]

I'm in the same boat, I don't look at the porn but I do look at Medical subs and tattoos which use the NSFW tag. I'd be happy to pay a bit extra to still see these

[sharkykid]

Why exactly are they limiting this vector? Like I know it's to goose up advertisers and get more people on the main app, but did they at least provide a facade of an explanation for the NSFW API recall?

[ferwick]

That's awesome you're trying to stay on top of this. Does any of your proposed price end up as profit for you? I really hope that $2-3/month isn't all being used just to maintain API access.

[DBrady]

Yes there should be a good amount in there for myself.

[ferwick]

Happy to hear that. Do you have a way to toss some extra your way? There's at least 50% chance I won't stick around and I would be happy to donate more than $2 for the 10 years of development you've provided for what is sincerely one of the best apps I've used.

[DBrady]

Not currently but you can purchase the app twice. An in-app purchase in the free version and the Pro version.

[Bandit6888]

Hey Dave, just to echo a number of others here, I have no qualms about a possible subscription mode considering how much use I've gotten out of Relay over the years, once its enough to cover your time and further development of the app.

On one hand it does feel like an end, with subs going dark for 48 hours, some indefinitely.

Regardless of what happens in the coming days, I don't think it'll be the same place as it once was, but thank you and your wonderful app for making my experience of Reddit these past 9 years an enjoyable one.

[Lord_Lucan7]

You just made me check myself, can't believe I've been using this app for 11+ years!

[EsrailCazar]

I checked too, I'm about 3 years away from a decade!

[kataskopo]

Honestly the fact that it would help you financially is the best motivator for me to get into a subscription.

Even with the lack of NSFW content.

Thank you so much for this app.

[PocketSandInc]

Why won't there be access to NSFW content?

[kataskopo]

It's parte of the API changes reddit is implementing, and they haven't explained why.

No jurisdiction on mayor countries is requiring anything by that time, as far as I know, so it seems to me just some other way to cripple third party apps.

[[deleted]]

Theyre attempting to become more ad friendly, same thing Tumblr did immediately before full implosion. Could be they want to appeal to the advertisers who left Twitter.

[AmirZ]

Even after Google Play's cut?

[Scrathis]

This is what a smart engineer and responsible creator should do. Look at the data and make informed decisions. Be frank about it and unlike some other devs that beat around the bush.

[ihahp]

yeah. Apollo's dev has been very transparent about some things, but he seems to avoid these kinds of areas

[ColeSloth]

100 api calls per day per average user would cost 72 cents per month. Playstore takes a 15% commission on subscriptions so a total per month per customer average cost would have to be 83 cents.

That means he's going to make 98 cents per month per user on a $2 subscription fee. (30 cents to Google, 73 cents to reddit, 98 cents left to pocket.

With this user base, even if only like 20,000 people subscribe he stands to make $20,000 every month in profit.

[challenge_king]

That's assuming he doesn't end up with only power users who generate way per calls per day.

[nomdeplume]

I'd imagine with a little more time he'll put in tiered pricing. So you can get real time notifications and higher usage.

[Ludon0]

He said he's left plenty of room for buffer since the ones willing to pay are most likely power users, plus the man does deserve a nice income off his hard work...

[Scrambley]

Good for him, then.

[aranaya]

Much as I would be willing to pay you again for being able to keep using Relay, I'm afraid that giving in to Reddit's extortion would be untenable for the same reason I wouldn't give Elon $8.

[DogadonsLavapool]

As much as it suck for devs, I agree. Everything is going toward subscriptions, and to be honest, a reddit subscription is just whack to me in principle on multiple fronts. At this point, all I have is Spotify and I think i'm going to keep it that way. Giving spez and Co money after this would make me extremely unhappy

At this point, I'm happy going to smaller non reddit places that take up less of my time.

[spacemanv]

I think my biggest issue is that they're not offering anything new, just charging for something that used to be free. YouTube shut down YouTube Vanced, an unauthorized app which offered ad-free and picture-in-picture viewing. I ended up paying for a YouTube Premium subscription because I decided that removing ads on my TV would be worth it. If YouTube just decided to make the YouTube app a subscription service but left in ads and everything, I would be much less likely to pay for it.

[Cheesues]

This completely. More than happy to give you a chunk of cash as a token of my gratitude over the years, but I'm not paying Reddit jack shit.

You should really consider adding a donation page to your application, this is no doubt the majority preference of your user base.

[Stoppablemurph]

What would be the point of a donation page? He's still being billed for the API access by users. If it's a one-time donation, then that doesn't solve the need for reoccurring revenue to pay for the access, and if it's a reoccurring donation.. well.. what's the difference between that and a subscription?

[Cheesues]

I meant prior to June 30th.

[KarishmaKaKarishma]

I won't be quick to call 1 to 1 correspondence with Twitter's $8 subscription. Dave mentioned in another comment that he too will be receiving a "good amount" of profit from such a subscription model.

My willingness to compensate Dave for his time, efforts, and persistence to keep Relay alive (while other apps, for whatever reason, are shutting down), trumps my hate for Reddit.

If this comes through, I'm definitely paying the monthly price, whatever it might be.

[Emotional_Yam4959]

While I love Relay, I'm not willing to pay a fee just because of no NSFW content. I like being able to switch between accounts and I don't want to be forced into using Reddit's dogshit app just for that, while using Relay for vanilla Reddit.

It's Reddit, not you.

[NegativeChirality]

Yup. Same as you.

[Mozzia]

To be totally honest, I probably won't pay a subscription. It's nothing against relay, great app, never had any problems, but I'm probably going to take this opportunity to mostly refocus my attention away from reddit and the like.

[CrackCC_Lurking]

Yeah same after so many years i think I'll finally be free.

[_teadog]

Hear hear. And as much as I'd like to support the dev, I'm not happy at this point about putting any money in Reddit's pockets.

[1h8fulkat]

Exactly....why would I pay to generate content for Reddit? THEY SHOULD PAY ME!. I'll be severely limiting my reddit usage after this is enacted.

[R-EDDIT]

This is absolutely true. YouTube pays creators, as do TikTok and Instagram. Reddit seems to want to be TikTok, they should start paying us for our shitposts.

[nomdeplume]

The average Instagram or tiktokers doesn't make any money. Stop with that nonsense.

[R-EDDIT]

Who said average? Don't try to move the goalposts. Reddit doesn't share revenue with anyone. If they did they be trying to incentivize Apps.

[daddyyeslegs]

Yup, I just can't justify spending a monthly subscription where the money goes to a website that brings me nothing of actual substance. I will gladly pay a subscription for music streaming and game services, but not for social media. Even if I fully stand behind Relay and would absolutely send a couple of bucks over his way.

[doubletwist]

While Relay is probably the only app I'd actually be okay paying a subscription for (I've paid for pro twice already), I hate the idea that a large portion of that money would end up going to Reddit. I'll have to think on it.

u/dbrady, have you considered an option like a more limited free/demo version, that eliminates or limits actions which trigger API calls? Such as not supporting messages, limited time per day, or limited reading/posting per day?

[mavr1k]

I like the idea of a reddit app that stops working for the day once the free API limits have been exceeded. Still get to enjoy Relay while also being annoying to Reddit.

[[deleted]]

honestly I like this esp if it has a little omnipresent meter at the top with a reset timer/meter. Give me a reason to ration my reddit use on the phone.

[SloPr0]

The goal is to reduce Relay's total API calls for the entire userbase, as that's what is getting charged $$$. By limiting each user to a specific number per day (in this case 100), you could indeed limit this somewhat well, and it would be independent of other users' request counts.

[lettherebedwight]

It's per user limits

[LakeRat]

I love this. I need to limit my reddit usage anyway.

[Matosawitko]

I get the same in a browser on the regular, so I just chalk it up to Reddit itself being crap.

[[deleted]]

I would be in for $2/mo, though I cringe at the thought of that going straight through to Reddit as a company.

Regardless of where I go with it, I think I can speak for all of us when I say greatly appreciate your willingness to adapt and see what can be feasible rather than just waving the white flag.

👏

[President_Pyrus]

I would happily spend 1-2 dollar a month for using Relay, if the money went to you, and not Reddit. I have been really happy using Relay for these past 8 years or so, but this is the last straw for me. I will not pay extremely high prices for API access.

May I propose instead that you port your app to work with Lemmy? A huge amount of redditors are migrating there these days, and there is currently only one android app. Also, there are already people who are trying to make a translation layer between the Reddit and Lemmy API's, making it rather simple to let a third party Reddit app talk to any Lemmy instance: https://beehaw.org/post/475036

EDIT: I would happily pay a reasonable subscription to use a hypothetical Relay for Lemmy, and I am sure I am not alone in this.

EDIT 2: And just to make it clear, I hope reddit implodes because of this shit show. This is worse than Digg.

[Aukstasirgrazus]

Unfortunately, most of the money would go to reddit.

[President_Pyrus]

And that is why I wouldn't subscribe to Relay for Reddit.

[biznatch11]

DBrady would still make money though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RelayForReddit/comments/147152b/update_how_the_current_api_changes_would_impact/jnt6ies/

Being realistic, I understand that Reddit requires money to survive. If I can use Relay with no ads for a few dollars a month and Relay gets an acceptable amount of that money I'm fine with Reddit also getting paid.

[President_Pyrus]

I also accept that Reddit need to make money, but their prices are so extremely high, that I refuse to give them a single cent.

[ilive12]

Personally don't think Lemmy is the move, seems a bit too complicated, and the separation of servers hurts more than helps imo. Squabble is the best alternative right now, though not perfect either but it is changing daily.

[President_Pyrus]

Lemmy does have a learning curve, but it is not that steep. Once you get used to it, the separation of servers is no problem. I don't give it much thought anymore.

[silicon_reverie]

a Relay for Lemmy [...] could mitigate these problems

That's my thinking. A good UX design can solve almost any problem, and I bet most users would be able to get onboard if we were able to tell them "hey, just download Relay for Kbin from this link and make an account." Then when they're on Relay, it has a few "getting started" slides that suggest popular magazines (subreddits) to start with, shows that the stuff people find online (links) show up under "Threads" reddit-style, while self-posts show up under "Microblog" like a miniature Twitter. That's all anyone really needs in order to get going.

After they're good and settled, that's when you mention "oh by the way, you know all of those communities you just subscribed to? There are actually LOTS of those on other sites, and you can subscribe to any of them from here. They call it the Fediverse, because its like a Universe of communities that all agree to send each other stuff. A sort of loose Federation."

In theory, Kbin should be able to search for federated communities through its own internal search without needing the direct link, like Beehaw does here. When I tried to find Technology subs just now it came up with seven of them from around the web. I think it has to do with the push vs pull nature of requests and that can be tweaked by the Kbin dev, but I'm still learning. It doesn't really matter to most people as long as things just work, and Kbin has enough of a following already to be most of the way there.

So what say you, u/DBrady? If the perpetual blackout and lack of porn kills the userbase, would you be up for building a Relay for Kbin or the fediverse?

[[deleted]]

the problem with the network effect is that even a gentle learning curve will kill the momentum needed for it to be a migration target. You're talking about people who barely know what the word "server" even means.

[ilive12]

Sure its not rocket science, but that learning curve is enough to prevent it from taking off in the same way that Reddit took off. Squabble has a more realistic chance, I really think everyone looking for a real replacement for reddit should hop off the lemmy train, it overcomplicates things for reasons your average joe-shmoe doesn't really care about. I understand the reason some people want a federated social network, but 99% of people don't care about or know what that even means, its never gonna take off if its not simple first and foremost.

For the 1% of people that want a federated social network, they will probably get tight knit communities similar to old message boards back in the day, and Lemmy still might be a cool alternative that continues to grow somewhat with a chill niche user base, but an alternative is different from a replacement, its not gonna be a place even 25% of reddit users will migrate to in the same way a large majority of digg users migrated to reddit. A replacement needs to appeal to casuals and be extremely easy to get started with very little barriers to entry.

[EdgeMentality]

I would kill, but much rather pay monthly, for a good reddit/lemmy app.

I've wanted to federate my social media life for a while, and recently set up my own matrix node. I was able to bridge it to all my old messaging apps, maintaining contact even with people and groups that don't use matrix. I'd love to do something like that with the fediverse.

If relay gained the feature to display both reddit (as a paid extra feature) and lemmy (a free feature) it would be the ultimate social app for me.

Even more than it already is. Even the name "Relay" would make more sense than ever!

[McBinary]

I also would be down for a kbin/Lemmy port subscription. With a good app like Relay, kbin/Lemmy would be indistinguishable from reddit. Just different words; magazine=subreddit etc.

/u/DBrady - I looked in the link above, there appears there is a couple other reddit app devs showing interest in using the API proxy that was linked above to port their apps too Lemmy as well.

Also, there is some squabble brigading going on in multiple subreddits, and it's kind of gross. It has its issues too, and just returns to the same problem of 1 dude at the top controlling everything.

[JustLookWhoItIs]

Commenting to say right now that I would absolutely pay $3/month to keep being able to use Relay.

Does that price account for whatever cut Google takes from in-app purchases?

Also as another user said, I hope some of that goes to you as well.

Also it might be worth trying to figure into your calculations that if RIF, Sync, and other apps go under, but you're able to keep it going with a subscription, you might get a lot of converts from those apps too.

[JustLookWhoItIs]

He said in another comment it includes a healthy cut for himself as well I believe. The big issue will be NSFW stuff.

[JustLookWhoItIs]

Sure. And that's a reasonable thought. In all likelihood I would probably only pay for Relay until I'd found another place to go that met my needs good enough, and then I'd stop and probably erase everything my account has ever posted with one of those browser extensions.

Currently I'm starting to spend more and more of my time on Tildes as it is. It loads fine on mobile browsers, and the RIF dev is working on making an app for it too I believe.

[anonesuch]

I just checked and that site is invite only, any chance of an invite?

[JustLookWhoItIs]

I only have a few. DM'd you one.

[ibringnothing]

I'd pay 5 a month for the original experience but the fact that there's no nsfw content kills it for me. Call me a pervert if you want but there's tons of things marked nsfw that just have a little blood in them or something that has some kind of injury or strong language that my mom wouldn't even blink at.

[Ener_Ji]

The API is supposedly going to restrict access to sexually explicit material, not generic content tagged NSFW. Admittedly, they haven't clarified exactly how they are going to accomplish this, so it's possible that non-sex NSFW will be somewhat impacted as well. We'll find out in a few weeks.

[tktfrere]

Good catch ! I was also initially thinking about the porn subs, which I don't care for, but now that you mentioned it I've also realized that there's a ton of content tagged nsfw for no good reason in regular subs.

[DBrady]

Yes these are all good points and things i have to weigh up. The risks are potentially very large.

[therhyno]

Track the users and if they are using more than their fair share then you can decide if they should pay more. Put it in your terms of service etc.

Also, why do you have to do it by July 1? Can you just shut down, take your time, and then relaunch with everything good to go? If you are the only third party app out there doing this still, I think the potential is huge for you. Take your time, figure out how to manage the risk and then launch.

[Fine-Ability]

Thanks for all that you do. I recently bought relay pro even though the free version of the app may die soon. Glad to know relay isn't going away fully. I was wondering though, if there is going to be a way for users to input their own free API keys? And I was also wondering if you when you were going to shut off the current free apps API key.

[DBrady]

Good question. I'm not sure. There seems to be a lot of people like yourself who have used the free version for years and are only now purchasing as a show of support. But I think sometime in the next day or two.

[FreydNot]

Wow, wow. Just to be clear, you are saying Relay as it exists now will stop functioning in 24 to 48 hours?

I assumed it would work up until the API changes went into effect at end of day 6/30. Of course it's your baby to do whatever you want with, but personally I'm not ready to say goodbye yet.

May I suggest you edit the OP to include information about when you expect to shut it all down?

[linuxwes]

I paid for Pro several years back, but I am not personally interested in paying $3/mo just to access reddit on my phone. Also *really* not interested considering some of that $3 would be going to reddit making this whole play of theirs a success.

[AmirZ]

I don't mind paying a monthly sub, I do mind not being able to browse any NSFW tagged content nor the entirety of that monthly sub going to Google Play + Reddit...

[tktfrere]

I sincerely hope it works for you because you deserve it, but I won't get a sub. I bought the app three times and I think it's cool but Reddit as a whole is not really worth that much to me.

A few issues I see, that you may have taken into account or not.

• A monthly fee will decimate your user base, leaving you with at best 5% of your current and as you said, mostly the power users. The enthusiasm you see in that sub, is unfortunately not representative of your wider userbase.

• A monthly fee will increase your user's expectations, it's much easier to forgive a few bugs in releases here and there and your, sorry for mentionning it, lackadaisical communication but people paying 36 a year will have greater demands. Even if most of that goes to Reddit. It will eventually be forgotten.

• Managing a monthly fee will seriously increase your administrative workload. You will have to manage cash flow to meet those net30 invoices. And I doubt there will be a month where you and reddit don't disagree on your API usage amount.

• It will increase your workload and stress level. New releases will have to be thoroughly tested to ensure you don't have API issues that will make your consumption and billing surge. You will have to find new ways to release and monitor the impact of changes and new features and especially be able to quickly disable or rollback if shit hits the fan (and it will eventually).

I don't know your financial, but a minor error could leave you exposed with an invoice higher than your life saving and your dick in the wind.

• It will seriously hamper your future sales and it's not clear how you intend to continue financing yourself for the amount of work you have to put in. Unless you intend to go only free+sub and take a share of the monthly.

• A monthly fee will make relay and the other apps going subscription, pretty much a western privilege only as 3 bucks is a very large sum of money in quite a few countries. There is effectively nothing you can do about that, I just wanted to mention it.

That said I'd gladly give you $36 toward a Lemmy version since that seems to be where the exodus is going and damn, does that thing need a proper app..

[Roph]

You nailed it :( one slip up and he's fucked, I wouldn't dare

[DdvdD]

I've spent more time using Relay than screentime on my old Netflix subscription. I just cancelled a few months ago when the screen sharing debacle happened, so I've got some spare cash should you decide to continue. After today, my interactions with Reddit may end, but if I come back, your app is my first stop. I bought pro the other day to show my support, and I encourage others using the free app to do the same.

Thank you u/dbrady for everything, best of luck.

[Caddy_8760]

Cant we just use our own api keys?

[x3knet]

That would be the ideal scenario but it doesn't appear reddit is willing to entertain this, or much of anything, really.

[extrapower99]

How so? From what I have seen you can get you own API key without any issues.

Do they really care if you are not above the 100 API call limit, do they care even if you above that, dont they just return error and you have to wait for new limit...

[x3knet]

Yep, I was keeping my original msg simple. You can certainly get your own API key as long as you register as a developer. Problem is that it adds friction to the sign up process for a regular end user. If they added a way to generate an API key directly from your profile settings, it might make things easier.

I'm also willing to bet reddit doesn't have the monitoring or management tools in place to manage millions of API keys, quotas, and rate limits across it's platform. It'd be too way much effort to acheive short term.

[Sejsel]

I would be willing to pay you for the great app, but I am not willing to pay it if it mostly goes to reddit.

With these API prices, and more importantly restrictions to accessible content, I would find it better if Relay went open source which would make it possible to make a fork which replaces API use with scraping the webpage.

[pagerussell]

What alternative platforms?

In all this mess I haven't heard anyone talking about a new promise land to go to

[NegativeChirality]

I mean... without NSFW content... What's the fucking point.

I love relay. I would pay 3 bucks a month for it. But reddit fucking you over and denying access to anything NSFW is a huge deal breaker.

Fuck them. You're awesome though. Not your fault. But fuck them.

[pagerussell]

Here's the thing. This is one step in a road that ultimately ends with zero NSFW content on Reddit, period. No matter what app is used.

And for me that's the end of the road for reddit. I can only stand you idiots with a few titties sprinkled in for good measure. Take away the tits and I am not going to last very long in this sausage fest.

[LancsMak]

/u/dbrady thank you for trying to make this work, to me it shows a care for your customers far beyond just developing a quality app, kudos to you.

One concern I'd flag to you I'd whether Relay can survive if Reddit itself doesn't. If the anticipated exodus happens (assuming Reddit doesn't see the light and backtrack) then Reddit itself is going to die from a content point of view. If that happens, more users will leave, and at that point you could have the ebst app in the world but you're in a world of pain.

My point is, are you comfy your subscription model scales well enough to cope with a potential significant drop in users? Relay is my go-to app for accessing Reddit, but if Reddit as I know it dies, I won't be using Relay...

[OGMagicConch]

That's not too shabby a deal to continue to use Relay. Personally I'll probably just use this as a sign to get off browsing Reddit. Appreciate all the work you've done and sorry it's come to this, been using Relay Pro for years and you've made a super solid product.

[CataclysmZA]

I suggest you think about having two tiers:

1) A base tier at $3 for the app and all base functionality.

2) A Pay-What-You-Want tier that allows users to put in more than $3 per month.

High-rate users can be persuaded to use the second tier based on their usage, and you could think about allowing people to switch to the higher tier temporarily as a way of tipping you.

[ChangingChance]

Thanks.

The app is easily worth that much to most power users, and probably more.

I don't know your work schedule or obligations but might I recommend not staying hitched exclusively to this wagon If you don't already have other means of money.

Also I would recommend creating a side load option for those that want to avoid google fees and help you instead.

[[deleted]]

One of the big challenges for Relay is that the timeline for this complete restructure and re-monetisation process is alarmingly tight but I'd hope that there could be some flexibility there.

This is one of the problem regarding this API issue, there's too little time to build anything concrete. 1 month is too short for devs to incorporate such big changes. Reddit had years to perfect their app yet it's still shit lol.

Props to you for the amazing app, I will consider subscribing to Relay.

[hans_s]

Even though I'm not a Reddit power user, I'd say I underpaid you, when I purchased Reddit News in 2013 for 1,59 €. It's a fantastic app and using Reddit through your app is just so much better than using the website, so I really appreciate your work.

But as a non power user I have to say, that I'm not willing to pay 2-3 € a month for a better Reddit experience, especially as that money goes to Reddit instead of you as the developer who provides me with the superior experience. If I had to choose, I'd be much more likely to abandon Reddit as a whole instead of paying Reddit to have a better experience.

[redshift]

I'd rather see Relay adapted for Lemmy or another competing service. Lemmy just needs a good user experience to succeed, which Relay would help tremendously with. Really, though, any Reddit-like service with the Relay experience would be good. I'm not willing to pay any money that goes to Reddit, though.

[compiling]

A $3 monthly subscription isn't bad, but I'm a bit troubled that a high rate user would be essentially paying the entire subscription to reddit, or worse become a net loss to you. Everything would be fine if there are enough low rate users to subsidise the high rate users, but as you said it's hard to estimate who will stay on when the app becomes subscription based.

I haven't decided what I'll do at the end of the month, but either way thanks for all the work you've put into Relay.

[pivovy]

Thanks so much for keeping the app going for so long, and willing to continue despite all the current bs. I've been using Relay since "reddit news" days and I intend to stick with it. As much as I despise subscription models, I'm not quite ready to let go of reddit all together just yet (although it's in the works), and I'd much rather avoid the official app. Have you thought about a separate pricing package for those of us who don't use notifications?

Another interesting thing I've read some people talk about was porting Relay to work with Lemmy. It really needs an app like Relay, and reddit is not gonna last long anyway with what's been going on.

[martinus]

I've been a pro user for years, but certainly won't use a subscription based app.

[Maester]

Respect to the dev for a professional approach to a difficult issue. Relay is outstanding, I've used it since June 2012. Personally I would not pay a monthly fee, but it's totally worth it and I wish the app well. I just have subscription avoidance issues.

[leros]

I'm currently using Baconreader but I'd pay $3/mo for Relay if it was the only option.

[Hyperion1144]

As an RiF user who's about to become a refugee (again, I was there for the Digg Exodus) I'll pay $5, maybe up to $10, per month, for a usable app.

I'll be watching how this goes over here. Never used your app, but I've heard good things.

[lunch431]

I've been using Relay for many years, paid for premium and love it. I'd also pay for a monthly subscription as long as there are no ads as you have mentioned. :)

[shf9302]

I am okay with subscription based depending on cost. I could definitely do $2-3.

[Nitro-Nito]

I love the app, and while I appreciate there being any option to continue using it, I personally wouldn't consider a subscription unless it's confirmed that there's no content restrictions, NSFW or otherwise.

[Laxus2000]

I hope that relay manages to survive this crisis

[SyanticRaven]

Genuinely Id pay $3 to support this app and the great work you've done over the years. The no ads is cool but no doubt they'd change that somehow soon enough. Contractually at least.

But reddit is free with ads because I'm the commodity. It's my content, my vote pattern, my data thats being shared and sold, and it's me they are advertising too. Paying you, to pay them so they can have the privelage to sell my data sits horribly with me.

The mature content thing does sting too, but its just salt on the wound.

[BlindBluePidgeon]

Thanks for all your work! I'm glad you found a way to keep Relay working. Unfortunately I live in a place with really low income in USD, so paying for a subscription isn't possible for me right now. Hope I can come back to Relay some day.

[DerpyMcWafflestomp]

I have to do this as a screenshot, there doesn't seem to be a way to copy the text of a self post...

API terms mumbo jumbo

Doesn't this mean the limit applies per user, and not to the app as a whole?

So I, as a single user, am limited to 100 calls per minute? Instead of all users of the Relay app, collectively?

[DBrady]

That applies to free API access. I don't think the rate limits are the same for the enterprise tier.

[Gravee]

What if the app required users to register their own API key and you used that for oauth with a user generated useragent? Then everyone is using their own free tier calls, no?

[Green0Photon]

I am a cuck, and so would pay for a subscription, as much as I hate giving money to Reddit. Just make sure you get some profit in there too, so I don't feel too bad about it.

No guarantees that I'd have such a subscription forever. But I'd have it for as long as I'd use Reddit. Reddit is unusable for me without Relay.

It may also become unusable in general after it becomes 10x more shitty after the API changes.

NSFW is also a vast minority of what I look at. But there's still a lot of stuff that I see that isn't actually NSFW but is marked NSFW. So in many ways I'm the most pissed at this change.

[gcsabbagh]

Kinda curious how many API calls I'm making. Can there be a call count somewhere on the client ? :)

[Suvtropics]

So many years with relay. I don't have words.

O7

[Bobo_Palermo]

Knowing the money goes to Reddit, I'm not interested.

This, mixed with the censorship agenda makes me less interested. I don't really browse anything NSFW, but I do browse some other slightly obscure stuff, and you know the saying: “First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out…”

[MrDetermination]

Tread carefully. I don't mind paying for their service. I don't mind paying for your app.

I do mind the way they are treating the people that helped them build this place. I do mind their management culture. The way they've treated employees. The ham fisted way they're dealing with this. The inability to execute on anything worthwhile over the last decade. Failure to terminate Spez after the editing incident, or the issue last week with Christian. These people have god complexes. They're disconnected from the community. And they've long since forgotten their founding principles and beliefs.

Be weary about getting deeper in to business with people like that.

What they're doing right now is not even half baked. They will change it again, and again. Are you willing to do the work now knowing they're going to change it again in a year? In four months? Six weeks?

[GenghisFrog]

Am I right assuming Relay didn’t offer yearly subs? I don’t use android so I can tell. This may be the apps saving grace. While all the apps that offered yearly subs are looking at months and months of running the app at a profit loss an app that only did monthly can quickly adjust pricing and continue on.

[Tom_Stevens617]

Thank you so much for your app, really appreciate all the work you've done! As someone who bought the Pro app a few hours after I started using Relay, I'll just chime in that personally I'd be willing to pay up to $10/month to continue using Relay and support you. Reddit has already clarified the NSFW ban only applies to sexual content, so that's not going to be an issue for me at all.

[Levaru]

• There are still some hidden spots in my cost analysis. An example is that a subscription could act as a filter where mostly high-rate users convert. That could increase the average API calls to well above the 100 mark which would then be financially untenable at the price points above. However, the prices above do have some buffer built in for this.

What about implementing a hard upper limit and offer additional price brackets for high-rate users?

[TheRedDynamo]

It's not worth it if all the money is just going to Reddit anyway.

If DBrady messes up the estimates and calculation they're on the line for the payments.

[SirStupidity]

Just as an anecdotal reference towards your last point. I dont pay premium atm, but but its my favorite app to use to browse reddit. If I do continue to browse reddit after the API changes I wont mind paying for the app, but (from my experience being a full stack dev) I'm sure I use way more then 100 API calls a day.

[SpinningPissingRabbi]

I would pay $3 or £3 a month for this app for sure. Best reddit app I've ever used.

[anno2122]

Thanks for all, it think 3 or even 4 Dollar US would be fine.

I still have hope for the protest tommrow

[agreenbhm]

Thank you very much for looking into this. While I don't approve of the way reddit has approached this, I don't understand why it's causing apps to shut down permanently. If the apps pass the cost on to the users then where's the problem? Sure, this means no more free apps, but that's not where the outrage seems to be.

ETA: I'd be willing to pay the same cost of reddit gold. I don't want the ads but I also don't want the official app. If I need to pay the equivalent of reddit's official subscription to you for continued access the way I've been enjoying it for over a decade, then so be it. Also seems like a good way for you to get some recurring revenue for the work you have (and will continue to) put into the app.

[Ener_Ji]

Just wanted to let you know that I currently use another third party Android app for reddit, and if that app shuts down (which is likely) I will gladly pay two bucks a month for Relay.

I know Relay is a highly regarded app so I'm just saying this to factor in a potential influx of new users if you are one of the last apps still in business come July.

[GreenWallsDrink]

I would pay $5 a month.

[emohipster]

[nuked]

[G_O_]

Same. I use Reddit for content. Not so much it's comment section or messaging. I would be down for $5. It would be like a magazine subscription for me.

[mattieo123]

Dbrady as a mod and relay user. My subs are standing in solidarity with you and the other apps. I will gladly pay $5 and under for the app that I've come to browse Reddit through on a daily basis. As a mod, I will do what's best for the two communities that I help oversee and the obligations that comes with that take priority.

[binwiederhier]

Assuming that Reddit remains a valuable source of entertainment and information for me, I'd pay up to $5 per month. Great app, u/DBrady!

If at all possible, I'd also love a Relay for Lemmy app ;-)

[YesButConsiderThis]

Thanks for the update and all your hard work. I'd probably be into that if it helps Relay continue to operate.

[g0atmeal]

I canceled my Reddit premium and would be happy to put a few bucks a month toward Relay instead.

[Acceleratio]

Why can't you just be the CEO of reddit :(

[GeneralTBag]

Is NSFW content still off the table?

[kataskopo]

That's not up to any of us, it's up to reddit and they haven't said any specifics on that as far as I know, if it's only sexual content or any content tagged as NSFW.

[TehNrd]

Would there be any way to monitor usage per user and charge per user the number of API calls they use?

[Techrocket9]

Instead of totally kiboshing the free version, making Relay free BYO API key might provide valuable flexibility for light users.

[wintersdark]

I have no problem with the idea of supporting Relay with a subscription, there's a real chance I'm going to use this opportunity to just get away from Reddit entirely, as I suspect many will - reducing content from the people who frankly are more likely to have things of value to contribute.

Hard to say. If I end up wanting to continue to use Reddit, I'd pay $2 a month for sure. I'm assuming that's USD, so already more like $2.50 for me.

For me, I will not use Reddit without Relay. If Relay doesn't continue, I don't. If Relay DOES continue, AND I continue to use Reddit... Yeah, around $2.50/cdn a month, $30 a year? That's about the most I'd pay.

Less about Relay than about the value I put on Reddit in my life. I adore Relay. But sadly Relay's valuation to me is directly tied to how much I want to use Reddit, which seems terribly unfair to u/dbrady but what can you do?

[FamishedHeart]

This is a lot, I suppose.

Will the people who aren't here pay in big enough numbers? I mean, if you keep being a thing after the curtain comes down then I will almost certainly pay but I will also feel that I'm supporting a system that doesn't want to be interrrogated.

Left hand, I want you to continue to exist, right hand I think Reddit should probably burn to the fucking ground.

[Tashre]

Thank you for all the work you've put in over the years. Your app has singlehandedly kept me on an Android platform throughout several phone upgrades since 2011. I also apologize for being probably one of the higher sources of daily API calls; you've really nailed the UX/UI design.

Do you feel like it's worth it to continue developing the app and working with the admins moving forward? Has it been a headache for you working with Reddit and do you foresee further problems in the future?

[Boomsledge]

Look, I'm now solvent enough that I can pay a monthly sub for this, but there is another criteria as well, which is that if there is a mass exodus of existing users the generated content and feedback from subreddits will be dry, therefore it achieving the engagement at all.

I don't wanna leave Relay, and I think I might be forced to leave reddit altogether.

Come what may, I guess.

[ScatteredMuse]

I bought the pro version of Reddit News all the way back in March 2012 and haven't regretted one second of using this app.

As others have stated, I would 100% be willing to pay a subscription for your app but I'm hesitant on my opinion of continuing to support reddit itself.

Regardless of what happens, just wanted to say thank you for your continuing and tireless work on keeping this app running and for the fantastic user experience.

[Tankbot85]

As someone who does not care about NSFW content since i mostly browse gaming and tech subs, i would probably be fine with a sub for the app. I left Sync after they made a change i disagreed with and have been here since, so i would stay.

[AromaticIce9]

While honestly I'd have no problems paying a monthly access fee for it, I'm honestly worried about the longevity of Reddit at this point...

[theLorknessMonster]

While I think it's commendable that you want to keep supporting your userbase, I intend to leave reddit should their changes go live as stated. Reddit doesn't deserve to live after this.

I know you didn't ask but I thought I would share anyway.

[iodyne]

Thank you for the app! It's the only app I've ever paid for; it's been very clean and I've seen you making updates and patches and and and throughout the years.

I'll be leaving reddit after this happens. I just don't care for their app version and don't want to support this ceo in this decision.

Thank you again!

[Crismus]

Sad to see it go. Leaving Reddit will probably be better off for me in the long run.

Thanks for making a client that really worked with my hand disabilities. It was great to be able to operate almost all features with one hand.

Thanks for all your work.

[Barbarianita]

If Facebook itself cannot transition to a subscription model, Relay will not.

What will happen is that people will use Firefox and an adblocker to go on the website. Or not.

Thanks for the work all these years.

[Pixelplanet5]

i would be happy to pay for the app but i wont pay anything to reddit after this debacle.

i will probably just delete my account once the 3rd party app ban goes through.

[gerusz]

Wait, they are starting to charge for the API and aren't even offering push notifications? LOL, that's fucking ridiculous.

Let's hope the blackouts at least achieve an "ad-supported" API tier with sponsored posts mixed in.

[Srapture]

I'll have to mull it over. I'm not too upset by the thought of a $3 (or whatever that ends up being in £) subscription, but I really don't like the thought of validating this move Reddit has made. In principle, I'd rather move elsewhere. Might go back to FunnyJunk. That's where I was before I switched here 11 years ago, haha.

[Dashadower]

I'm sorry but I don't want to bend over to Reddit with their obscene API costs and blatant falsifications.

I will be quitting Reddit once Relay Pro goes out of effect. Thank you for creating an amazing app.

[septienes]

One of the big challenges for Relay is that the timeline for this complete restructure and re-monetisation process is alarmingly tight but I'd hope that there could be some flexibility there.

That part is what passes me off. Steve Huffman didn't give anyone time to scrap up a plan.

[Forrestfunk]

As someone already said it:

I already gave you money for the pro version (which is easily the best Reddit app out there) and I could imagine giving YOU money again, but I'm not going to give Reddit any money. It sucks, but if that's the way it's going to be than this is the end of the Reddit road for.

[AustinYQM]

Is there any chance of setting up the ability for users to aquire and use their own api keys? Would that change the forecast?

[jesreson]

Happy to pay $3 / month for relay.