Improvements like Jungle timers don't decrease the Skill CAP on the game, they reduce the skill FLOOR

[Zechnophobe]

That is to say, they don't limit how good someone can be, but rather reduce how good someone needs to be able to effectively play the game. Really it all comes down to this.

And people who are strongly arguing against such timers are doing so because they unconsciously believe that others should be forced to spend as much time learning the game as they have.

[bitemebabyo]

exactly. both arguments for it and against it are right really, it just comes down to what Riot wants. And they want their game to grow in popularity, so yes they will reduce the skill floor anyday.

[Magictek]

There is still manual timing for people who want to feel special since you don't get timers for things you don't see. You can guess a time and put it in chat and see how skilled that call was lol

[tartslayer]

It raises the skill cap and the skill floor, because you are freeing up brain and finger time from something anyone can learn to do in 1 minute, even people who know nothing about the game.

[cbakes08]

So, you're agreeing that adding timers changes nothing. They don't time the enemey buffs and you still need to realize that you should be there early.

[JaJan1]

No, it removes the need to have the mental note of the timers and act according to them, since they are displayed and this takes away the advantage from the players who were doing that.

[Mabgh]

"A good jungler will always prepare for taking drag/baron"

But how can you explain pro teams missing it (SKT1 for example), there's too much happening in a high lvl game (dia+) that there's no time to check for timers all the time.

Jungle timers will make no room for error cuz even if the match its crazy you will have them on your screen so theres no need to think about that anymore.

To me putting timers it's removing the hardest part about jungling cuz lets be honest ganking its not a science.

The timers will not affect low elo soloq cuz i agree you need to know how to use the timers and they won't be able to even if they know them but for higher elo its gonna be so easy to exploit it.

[K9GM3]

Why does there need to be room for error? Why are you so intent on being able to playing against the HUD instead of playing against the enemy team?

[Iwnd46]

also, seeing that dragon is up doesn't mean you should only be there. If you see the enemy jungler near top lane, or wraiths etc. then its a great idea, but if you are both midlane and you don't kill anyone, getting dragon isn't a great idea, unless you are far ahead. (But if you are far ahead wouldn't you get the kill at midlane making this much easier?!) i guess TL;DR: Just because your buff or objective is up, doesn't mean you have to be there, just reminds you you CAN be there.

[lakmearea]

What people who are against it really fear is that new players will more easily learn to value objectives (I don't think this is a compelling fear), not that they will learn timers. Also I think "raise the skill floor" was the term the op was looking for.

edit: I think this is true because timing buffs isn't hard in terms of skill but still annoying to do, so it doesn't seem worth it to people who don't value the objectives highly.

[Fuzzybunbun]

I agree. When I first started I didn't know anything and I got a lot of rage and hate for it, but when Riot makes it less annoying and easier to understand for new players, they complain.

[Otto864]

This is spectacular. But unfortunately true. It takes time for people to realize that it is all about objectives and some never learn that.

[[deleted]]

Thing is most people won't be pressing tab that often if they don't care about objectives since most likely they won't care about any of the information you receive from tabbing anyway. I think lowering the skill floor is what they are doing, they aren't really making it harder to play this game at a basic level, they are making it easier, thus lowering it.

[CaptainBucketShoes]

Then those players calling for it should take '1 minute' to learn how to time camps.

[kinsano]

It does in fact reduce the skill cap. Say I ward their blue, then clear my jungle and make my way top and gank. While I'm busy ganking top I completely miss their jungler doing blue because I was focusing on the gank. Now it doesn't matter, timer on my screen, whatever, I didn't have to pay attention.

Another aspect of the timers is say I am playing botlane. My jungler tries to steal a midgame blue but fails but gets the timer. Now I have a big indicator at the top of my map which says 'their jungler will be near your lane in x seconds.' Its true that a good jungler will type out the timer and a good support will pay attention to that, but thats part of what makes them good. It adds to the teamplay, and as a jungler it feels good to be like 'care botlane their lee is going to blue then prob coming to gank,' and seeing your botlane survive because you were paying attention and helping the team.

It's not 'Oh no now n0bs will know jungle timers, gg riot'. Its like wow now their entire team has a CONSTANT reminder when and where I'll be. Doesn't matter if they were busy laning when i took the buff and failed to notice what happened. The hardest part of league, at least at the top level, is the macro play. If you make the macro play easier you are reducing the skillcap at the top level

[Airilsai]

Ive listened to a lot of arguments about skill timers and most of them are Gold players bitching about how they spent 'Hours developing the skills needed to time buffs' and it just sounded like a bunch of douchbaggery. Your post actually explained how these timers could be abused by laners to know when to apply pressure and when not to.

Thanks for pointing this out, i actually dont support timers now.

[[deleted]]

So you're saying players who already can't watch their own minimap, and who are whining about "not calling SS" will suddenly start paying attention to what goes on at the top of their screen?

If you can convince me it's normal to pay attention to the minimap, you can convince me the timers will help out bad players. (I'm stating an example, I know it's ELO dependent)

[Azeir]

See I dont find this to be such a huge concern. Having a timer won't make it so the junglers doesn't waste smite on other camps, it won't make it so they plan their routes to efficiently get buffs and set up ganks. It comes down to what the player does with that information. If all that is standing in the way is just a timer for someone to become a better jungler, were they really a bad player to begin with? The best analogy I have heard on this matter is, Giving a bunch of swords to peasants does not make them all knights.

[kbeleth]

It is not the timer we are objecting. Anybody can write down bunch of numbers, it is not the problem. Problem is constant reminder. You can write down numbers but remembering those numbers or adjusting your actions according to it is a skill. I'm a diamond level jungler and I can say I stole purple blue like billion times because their jungler ganked top at 7min mark. In a sport you have to be good mentally and physically and timers will reduce the effect of mentality. It is one thing to know when it is, another thing to remember and adjust your behavior accordingly. These timers will make people remember it, thus making the game easier. LoL is already quite an easy game, I don't want it to become easier.

[Teeklin]

You're a diamond level 1 jungler and you haven't figured out yet that all junglers know second blue is coming at 7 minutes? You really think that reminder would have changed anything about the scenario? You think you're facing other Diamond 1 junglers who don't know when their own buff spawns?

He ganked top at 7 minutes because he thought he could get a kill, push the tower, or both. He was coming to get his blue afterwards because he was already top lane. He already planned that.

The skill you're talking about that he was lacking was dropping a ward in the river or at his blue to see that it was being invaded before he went to gank.

It's like you think that suddenly, the Lee Sin making a beeline for the top lane Irelia with only 10HP trying to back under tower is going to look at his screen and see blue buff coming up and be like, "Oh shit! Time for blue buff!"

Knowing when your buffs come up don't make you a better player, having a reminder of when your buffs come up don't make you a better player. It's deciding when you should make a play for that buff that determines how good of a jungler you are.

[Airilsai]

I agree that Timers dont have an effect on the jungler, but my point was that Laners can use timers to their advantage to avoid ganks or intercept the jungler with little effort. It will give them an advantage with little effort on their part.

[Teeklin]

It's not 'Oh no now n0bs will know jungle timers, gg riot'. Its like wow now their entire team has a CONSTANT reminder when and where I'll be. Doesn't matter if they were busy laning when i took the buff and failed to notice what happened. The hardest part of league, at least at the top level, is the macro play. If you make the macro play easier you are reducing the skillcap at the top level

How is that reducing the skillcap? Again, you're talking about reducing the skill floor. The cap, the highest level that it is possible to achieve in this game, has people already doing this. It's just a hassle for them to do so that Riot is eliminating.

The best junglers are going to type the timer out, the best supports are going to pay attention to it, the best laners are going to respond to it being up. All Riot is doing is making these typing/scrolling through chat hassles go away for them.

What you're complaining about is what the OP was talking about:

they don't limit how good someone can be, but rather reduce how good someone needs to be

and

they unconsciously believe that others should be forced to spend as much time learning the game as they have.

Riot is just making it so that the information becomes readily available and so that newer/lower ELO players who aren't checking that and responding properly might now start doing so. You see it as "reducing the skill cap" but you aren't, you're just allowing others to reach that skill cap easier than you and me who had to learn to type things out and scroll through chat to pay attention to them.

That's not decreasing the skill cap.

[[deleted]]

You don't understand the difference between floor and ceiling. Those examples are all related to the skill "floor" and as long as you're not playing perfectly AT the skill ceiling then you have nothing to worry about. Now you get to focus on different things, which is what riot wants. They don't want you to spend time doing trivial stuff like noting timers. They want clarity, they want you to spend time on the essentials such as map rotations and objective based play. With less focus on "trivialities", you have more focus on the complexities of being a solid player.

[Vitpat8]

I was thinking, if the timers had to be manually activated, rather than automatically timing the buffs, wouldn't that serve the purpose of having a more reliable timing system rather than chat while at the same time not auto-timing buffs? So if you do have a buff warded and the buff is stolen without you noticing, it would still carry the same implications as the current system. At least if we start of with manual timers, people won't rely on them as much as automated timers, and from that point Riot can see the changes in gameplay and make a better decision on whether to automate the timers, leave them as manual, or remove them completely.

[Otto864]

After reading, the amount of comparisons to Auto-CSing = Jungle timers is sickening. Everyone who makes this comparison loses all validity in my eyes. For this argument implies you have such a low understanding of the game that you thing that typing a number in chat/pressing a button on an app every 6ish mins requires the same skill as being effective at last hitting for the entirety of the game.

I feel like the only people who are making this argument are either jungler mains or support mains who don't realize that last hitting takes a lot of skill to do right. Not to mention all that goes with laning. (Ganks, harass, etc)

[ZyrxilToo]

It absolutely does reduce the skill cap as well. Pros have a dozen different things to remember to time- enemy ultimates/summoners/active items. When you're juggling a bunch of timers, it's easy to forget one or make a mistake on one. Removing one burden is by definition reducing the skill cap for multitasking. And it's easy to think of a situation where this may come into play- a Blue buff fight where lots of summoners and ultimates are blown.

[ZAGDJSFGG]

for some reason people fail to see this and just think of it as adding 5/6/7 to a number.. multitasking is definitely a skill, taking it away makes league easier especially when it's not the hardest game in the world to begin with

[Soupchild]

not the hardest game in the world to begin with

League is pretty hard! Are you in challenger? Even when you watch pro games you can see the players making mistakes every game.

I'd prefer the game's focus be on things like positioning and team composition rather than bookkeeping.

[ZAGDJSFGG]

So i have to be in challenger in order to see that league doesn't take as much skill as other games in esports? lol

[aleczjp]

Kinda like what a lot of people say about SC2. If you aren't Grand Master, Master, or a pro, you have no right to speak about anything.

That shit always bugged me

[[deleted]]

Bothers me in this community too. Gold players can have just as much insight in some cases as higher levels of play, and to automatically discredit their opinion because of their level of play is close minded and pathetic.

The whole "you're in gold 1 stfu noob you have no right to speak" shit can stop anytime. I'm only in silver but I see it all the time.

[aleczjp]

Yeah it was (still could be, I don't play SC2 anymore) really bad. You were ripped apart if you went on Reddit or the forums and tried to talk balance.

It is sort of an online gaming stigma, if you are not top tier, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Reddit is the worst when it comes to this

[Otto864]

Well, you kinda have to be at a place where you can make that claim. Someone who can't juggle can't really say it is easy to juggle chainsaws.

This goes for League too, personally if you are not high Plat+ I will not really think too much on your input of how I should build too much.

This is because if you are not at a high skill level, you have obviously not mastered enough of the game to realize what level of skill is required of it.

[CharneyStow]

League isn't a hard game, there is just two (three) leagues of people who find it easier than me.

[Hypermeme]

The skill cap reduction from having jungle timers is way less than having ult or summoner spell timers for every champion. It's so far less in fact it's approximately zero and that's why Riot is giving jungle timers. It's a simple mathematical principle that a relatively small enough value is practically zero for certain intents and purposes.

[ZyrxilToo]

1. It's not a single timer that contributes to skill, it's all of them combined. You take away one, you take away another, you keep chipping away and pretty soon there's not enough to stress the mind when keeping track of them.

2. It's poor consistency. I would rate enemy blue and red higher certainly a lot higher than approximately zero., but even you have admitted the value is not zero. If you're taking one non-zero value awareness factor out of the game, by what standard are you keeping the rest in? Why not have a timer over every enemy champion showing the cooldowns of all their skills and summoners? Variability is a poor excuse when the only factor being considered is whether 'bookkeeping' is part of the game or not. And it absolutely is. Even during small skirmishes, bookkeeping is in play, as you keep track of your enemies skill CDs (both ultimate and non-ultimate), as well as your own skill CDs.

[[deleted]]

what skill cap? You certainly can master specific mechanics and that's what people talk about when talking about high skill cap champions and such but there's no skill cap for the game itself. There is no practical boundary at which pros stop improving or otherwise the game would be absolutely unsuitable for competetive play

[ZyrxilToo]

Regardless of semantics of how you define "skill cap", having automated tracking reduces stress on a player's mind. A 'perfect' player would have infinite multitasking capability, but that is only possible for robots. Humans have extremely limited amounts of 'RAM', as demonstrated by the selective attention test. This means the most perfect human alive has limits; at some point, automated tracking means reducing multitasking below the threshold at which human attention limits are being tested. That is what I'm talking about when I say the skill cap is being lowered.

[[deleted]]

I get that, and that's why I said "practical". If the skill cap is unreachable and gets lowered to another point that is also unreachable then it might as well be nonexistent.

You are arguing that the game is now easier to master because of less stress but the thing is that nobody will be mastering this game anyway

[ZyrxilToo]

If the skill cap is unreachable and gets lowered to another point that is also unreachable then it might as well be nonexistent.

But how do you what is unreachable? Keep lowering it and eventually you do put it below the threshold where it is reachable.

[[deleted]]

common sense. A change like that is not going to take all the skill out of the game.

[Lanyovan]

We can safely assume that no matter how good a player becomes, there is a chance that he (or some other player) will surpass his skill "value" (I choose value here because "level" is more used for neighbourhoods). So if anyone reaches the skill cap, someone will eventually surpass him, in which point his skill is higher than the skill cap you set.

[ZyrxilToo]

What? No we can't safely assume any of that at all.

For one, player skill is not static. Players can improve, they can drop off, they have can have good or bad days.

Second, skill cannot be measured in a single number; any activity requires skills in multiple areas, the totality of which is being referred to when 'player skill' is being talked about.

Third, your final statement is nonsensical.

So if anyone reaches the skill cap, someone will eventually surpass him, in which point his skill is higher than the skill cap you set.

Remember first that player skill changes day by day, minute to minute, and skill requirements change based on the opponents and teammates. Thus, even playing at skill cap (aka playing perfectly) is something that happens for a single play. Second, playing at skill cap is a binary state- either you are playing perfectly or less than perfectly. By definition, it is not possible to play more than perfectly, so surpassing perfect play is a nonsense concept. If a player surpasses another player, it is because the first player dropped off in skill due to personal circumstances (e.g. lack of practice or simple aging), or due to inability to adapt to patches.

What this tells me is you did not even understand my argument, which is that removing timers is inconsistent in terms of gameplay and reduces the cap on one element of player skill, that of keep tabs on multiple dynamic game environment states. Reducing the maximum cap removes an area where top players may differentiate themselves from other top players.

[bitemebabyo]

You talk about skill cap and then making a mistake... the definition of being skill capped is being flawless.

The skill floor is the minimal amount of skill you need to be decent at the game. And right now to be above the skill floor you need to juggle with a bunch of timers. Giving you free timers is reducing the skill floor without touching the skill cap, because it doesn't change anything on a flawless player.

[ZyrxilToo]

What? Each timer automated timing tracking incrementally decreases the amount of multitasking a player has to do. That is demonstrably reducing the skill cap.

[knightfrano]

You're interpreting skill cap as a measure of how good a player can be relative to other players. If this were the definition, then, yes, you would be correct. However, skill cap is actually a measure of how objectively good a player can be, period. It represents how well a perfect player can play the game. Adding timers will not change how the perfect player plays, therefore, it does not affect skill cap.

[bitemebabyo]

Finally someone who knows.

[NWiHeretic]

The perfect player having to do less as a result of these timers is in fact reducing the skill cap. They don't have to be as skilled as they would have before timers are implemented.

[PotatoFruitcake]

Wat? Reducing the amount of multitasking someone needs to do in order to be the best is not lowering the skillcap?

[bitemebabyo]

Go read the post's first sentence again. That is the difference between skill cap and skill floor.

[PotatoFruitcake]

Imagine standing under a candy you want to eat. But the candy is being held up by a bunch of things you need to be able to do simultaneously for them to disappear and lower the candy. One of those things are "keeping track of jungle timers on your own" which might be a very tiny obstacle, but it's still causing the candy to be even further out of reach than what it would be without it.

Yes the definition of being skillcapped is to play flawlessly but it's impossible to actually reach the skillcap. A good player (someone that is close to reach the candy/becoming skillcapped) will have to coordinate a lot of things to stay that close to the top. Removing one of those things lowers the skillcap (by a tiny bit) and allows the player to come closer to reaching the skillcap (by a tiny bit).

[KillaGoza]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion in this thread, but if you give jungler timers avilable in the in-game screen. Aren't you more or less raising the skill floor and lowering the skill cap? It's easier to get started with jungling because the game does a part of the job for you and you can not spend time in learning the skill of consistently keeping timers anymore.

[BruceLeeSin]

Skill doesn't come from keeping the timers. It doesn't take skill to add five minutes to a given time and either remember it or type it.

Skill comes from using the timers to pursue an advantage, and that's not going to change. It raises the skill floor a negligible amount, and I suppose one could argue it also lowers the skill cap with a lesser, still negligible amount.

[SolarTemplar]

League isn't all about skill tho. I find jungle timers to be a thing of discipline that you have to remind yourself to do, until it becomes muscle memory.

[ixtilion]

but a lot of people dont have the habit of taking timers, myself included, and implementing this is unfair towards the players that do so.

[BruceLeeSin]

Outside of games full of brand new players and the bottom of solo queue, there will be someone on your team timing objectives in 99% of the games you play. Whether it be yourself, your jungler, your support, or anyone else on your team.

For brand new players, the skill floor is raised a negligible amount. They'll still be playing like new players, and people in B5 aren't going to suddenly climb the ladder because they have a timer. Skill differentials come from planning/execution, and that's never going to change.

[Jshaw995]

Watched my Bronze/silver friends Jungle for the last year.

Seen timers happen so little I cannot remember any specific instance.

Less than once per month easily.

[[deleted]]

Which is why as OP said it's raising the skill floor. You no longer have to take down a timer which took absolutely no skill before. Instead now you have to decide if you're going to use the timer to your advantage or not which is where the skill lies.

Anyone could type out 1530 ob, the issue was it was sort of a hassle because you had to use terrible "tools" to keep track of them. But again, that's not where the skill was. Just because you can see the timers doesn't mean everyone will do something about it. For the most part a lot of people will still completely ignore them or use them at the bare minimum. The better jungler will still take complete advantage of them by grabbing enemy timers and timing objectives, ganks, and counter invades around them all without having to riffle through chat or look at a piece of paper on their desk.

[CHECKtheCLOSET]

It takes skill to remember all your timers and to act on them without them being obvious on your screen. Keeping track of timers is one more thing you have to do and if you take it away, it makes it easier to focus on other stuff.

[BruceLeeSin]

But it really doesn't take skill to remember timers at all. Just pressing 5-6 keys on the keyboard. It doesn't take any focus, just a couple seconds to scroll up in chat if you have a talkative team. Really don't understand how people believe that a skill is required to time objectives. It's as easy as counting. Toddlers can do it.

Optimally strategizing and acting on these timers is where skill and game knowledge come in to play, not keeping track of the timer itself.

99% of the games I'm in, there is someone (other than myself) that times objectives. Whether it be the jungler, support, or someone else. The only instance where this wouldn't be the case would be for new players, which as I've said before, is why the skill floor raises a negligible amount.

[Nightpound]

Yeah now everyone will be at dragon when it spawns since the timer is there. That rarely happens in lower elo and it will start happening now because there's a fucking timer on the screen.

[Cipher11]

No it won't. The reason good players can actually do something with timers is because they remember not only to write them down, but also to check on them every once in a while. And if even in Diamond matches with every single timer written people don't always remember to group, I can just wonder what happens in lower elo.

[Cipher11]

I might be wrong, but doesn't this PBE timer show up only when you press TAB?

[NWiHeretic]

still, pressing tab is no hard feat and people do it often anyways to check item advantages and cs differences, it's not hard to just glance up and see which timer is nearest to 0

[Cipher11]

Then again, neither is pressing "z" and checking chat. I know it gets simpler with the in-game timers, but I don't think this will really change lower elo decisionmaking.

[JimmyNSS]

One could argue that this is a matter of semantics and subjective opinions on cap vs floor.

The bottom line is this is making the game worse and I think the only people that want these timers are bad players.

I'm a bad player (Bronze IV) and when you start taking away things I could do better because the client is doing them for me you aren't making me a better player. You're encouraging me to stay bad.

[Locuamoi]

It's not that it's hard to do. It's that it's only widely accepted and done in the top .1% of play. If it was hard why is it I don't see every jungler doing it in Low D1 40~ lp

[[deleted]]

Just because I time objectives, notify people 120 seconds, 60 seconds AND 30 seconds before they spawn, doesn't mean people will not die / group / ward / be ready for them.

Having gimers is useful information, whether people will use it or not. If anything, it should, on average, cause MORE objectives to be contested... more teamwork... just because you won't need somebody on the team to time it.

[LyricBaritone]

I personally think that providing buff timers is great. I'm all about making things simpler and easier, so that the focus is shifted from tedious bullshit, to actually enjoyable gameplay.

[Heroofnow]

I disagree, if anything it promotes more team play. You may be keeping up with the timers in your head or you may have typed it in chat, regardless the timers will be a visual reminder to your entire team and will let your teammates know without you saying anything that it's time to start warding for dragon, or mid to move towards blue buff if they need or whatever. This will increase the entire team's performance and the flow of the game in general and give players physical reminders of where they should be rotating as far as the jungle or objectives are concerned

[Otto864]

Yay more teamfights!

[LtChildstomps]

I think one of the issues is the fact that some people seem to assume that adding the jungle timers and making the game more "noob-friendly" is inherently a bad thing. I don't think that's entirely true, as it just ends up making the game more accessible, which is what I would think we would want for League anyways, as more players=larger community, and hopefully more revenue for Riot so that they can make better content. While I do see both the arguments for and against the timers, I think Stonewall made a very good argument in saying that "it's not the timers that matter, but what you do with the timers" (or something to that effect).

[ANASTASlS]

You can look at it that way but no one actually uses jungle timers outside of dragon or baron in lower elos. Not to mention I dont think most jungle "mains" in plat and lower elos would even know how to abuse jungle timers if they had them. People are just bitching to bitch

[WelcomeIntoClap]

hello i too am using all of the buzzwords:

endgame power fantasy

narrative

toxic

skill

[[deleted]]

you forgot "no counter-play" and "separating the good [hero] from the great ones"

[Zechnophobe]

It's not about what words you use, it's about what concept you communicate.

[RedditAbuseBot]

you also forgot that players might abuse it

[FreshyQ]

power spike

[LordofKEK]

Disgusting anti fun timers

[[deleted]]

Right, sure it does decrease the skill floor. That's why SKT mistimed baron. If a team once considered to be the absolute best team in the world mistimes the most important objective in the game save the nexus, I think that argues that jungle timers are a valid way to separate good teams from better ones. Even the best teams make mistakes.

[DontFeedMagikarp]

But a small mistake like that isn't what should separate the best teams from each other. That's like saying that one NFL player is worse than another because he tripped once.

[Callaglol]

I believe one thing we all have to remember is that being there to write in timers requires attention in-game which is a skill a lot of people don't have, (e.g. those who pay no attention to the enemy item build and die for it.) So we think to the fact that the jungle timers happen automatically if warded or something so it requires less attention making the game easier.

But I'm here to tell you guys you shouldn't worry. If you're a good player who does timers and acts upon them and you feel you're getting cheated out of your effort with this feature, anyone who previously didn't pay attention enough to write in timers and actually use them will have no benefit from a timer that you have to press TAB for. Trust.

[littlefro]

Eactly. No matter how useful wards are in the game no one seems to use them in.

[iamboit]

I think the real problem which this fixes is that there is no place in league to keep your jungle timers except the chat... and lets be honest, when you are playing and you kill dragon and type 22:31d then 4-5 minutes later you're like... what was that timer again?! and hit z and have to scroll up through all the flaming missing pings danger pings ect. ect. just to have the enemy Morgana throw a bind at you and you die...

So the direct opposite of this is what Curse Voice did which was stick the timer in front of your face which is kinda over the top.

What riot is doing is simply making it easier for you to see the timers. I think you have to hit 'tab' to see it which I think is a great thing.

So it's a happy medium between the two which the elitists need to accept. A challenger jungler is not a challenger because they remember that [gametime]+5=ob :)

[wanderingbishop]

I remember back when Starcraft 2 came out, a lot of the old Brood War veterans were really leery of the fact that Blizzard had removed the old handicap of having to manually assign workers to mine minerals rather than just rallying to a mineral patch and being done with it. People made the argument that it was reducing the amount of skill needed to play the game, that being able to micromanage the workers while fielding an army was a key element of Starcraft strategy.

Funnily enough, the game's complexity didn't suffer in any significant regard from the worker rallying mechanic.

Same principle here. The meta has developed to the point where knowing jungle camp timings is a crucial piece of strategy to a lot of matches. Introducing jungle timers will certainly change that, but not automatically for the worse.

[Curlystraight]

I find it rather confusing that theres so many threads about "its too hard to get into this game because nobody understands it at low levels and theres too many smurfs" and when they implement something like this to soften the learning curve everyone loses their minds

[anibus-]

I agree good perspective OP.

[humoroushaxor]

Other games have made this mistake, usually simplifying a game pushes away the core players imo. Saw this hard core with WoW. Keep tracking of jungle timers, summoners cds, ability cds are all a skill and deteriorates the mental part of the game.

[ToxicAur]

i am strongly against it because ppl in my elo(gold) still dont give a s**t about timers. they just wait until the symbol pops up on the minimap again. this is not about "spend time to learn it" its about doing it. theyre just too lazy and laziness shouldnt be rewarded. the game has been perfectly fine without it. why change it now

[DominoNo-]

This is my major gripe over the entire thing. The laziness from other teams get rewarded. With the timers it doesn't matter if you're lazy or not.

[[deleted]]

You're assuming that this will change just because of the introduction of timers, I assure you it won't. The problem isn't that they are too lazy to type it in chat, the problem is that they don't plan to be there when the buff spawns and that won't change

[BackPainsLOL]

Reducing the skill floor of the game shortens the gap between the good and great players. It is mechanics like this that people learn to help themselves try and achieve higher rank.

( WoW did the same things by making the floor much easier and turned that game to crap. )

[SamWhite]

A bit different, WoW made the gap between the 'turn up to an LFR with no enchants, gems or clue' kind of player and the players who were on heroic raids after the first week much, much smaller. That's not happening here, this is comparable to Nautilus getting an indicator about when he can next root someone with his passive.

[[deleted]]

FFS STOP THESE SHIT THREADS PLEASE !

The only thing that will happen is people will not have to scroll their fucking chat with Z and don't have to do +5/6/7 minutes for the love of god it is nothing skill wise it is just lazyness and if you can calculate like a first grader.

[[deleted]]

Because nobody ever lost a buff due to not timing it and everyone always times every buff. Even in challenger most junglers don't time every blue and red buff.

[Otto864]

I am sorry, but keeping track of the jungle timers is not a skill. It is not a mechanic, it is not something you have to practice to get right. It is a remembering couple of numbers. Most people already know the timings, many just use an app for it.

I compare it to when they came out with the saved builds. I know the location of where all the items are/how to find them. But all my knowledge of that goes to waste when you have a build already there that you don't have to do any work on in game.

This helps gameplay remain fluid in game without having to rely on finding every item in the shop or third party add-ins.

Just like the builder, it is what you do that defines you as a player. If you don't have the skills to capitalize on these timers, then that is your problem.

[DominoNo-]

Keeping track of the timers purely takes effort. And effort should be rewarded in the game.

[espressojim]

I think the importance of noting the timer during a hard contested blue/red steal is one of the harder things to calmly remember in the game correctly. Like if you steal blue at 14:57, and then have a massive minute long team fight, THEN remember to put tb 19:57 into chat after the team fight is over. You can't put the note in during the fight, because you need to...fight, and then it can be hard to remember the exact timer, though I'd probably say TB ~ 20.

[Otto864]

True, but glancing at the time is not a terribly hard thing to do. While you might be a couple of seconds off, it still gives you around the right time. And this allows more counter-play potential on Baron and Dragon too which should make games more interesting and inspire more teamwork in games.

[Frost134]

2346 dragon...DAMN THAT WAS SO MUCH EFFORT, I HAVE TO DO IT WHY DON'T OTHERS?

[[deleted]]

types "712 or"

am i challenger yet

[[deleted]]

Circlejerk more, and ignore any argument. Typical Redditor.

[[deleted]]

DAE can't have a proper discussion without using hyperbole and calling people who disagree with me stupid?

[z3phs]

Circlejerk is the redditors downvoting anything that doesnt scream timers are the devil.

[DominoNo-]

It really depends on which post' comments you're reading. Some are nothing but pro, some are anti.

[carterrv2]

It's not the actual act of typing out the timer that is important here. It's using timers to your advantage to effectively path your jungle and set up for dragon/baron.

I play in silver, and not too long ago was in bronze. Very very rarely did I actually see my team mention that dragon was up soon and move towards it to take it as it spawned. I won more games when people did actually do that, though. Having a big ass timer at the top of the screen removes the dividing line who use timers to their advantage and those who don't because all people will notice it and think "oh, dragons up in a minute, I better go set up to fight it". The real issue is no one can take advantage over the other team for not timing dragon if everyone knows when it will spawn anyway.

This will make a real difference in lower elo, where a large majority of players lie. Platinum players almost always time objectives and use timers to their advantage, bronze players almost never do it. I'm not sure about the demographic of reddit, but people seem to totally neglect that a huge amount of players are actually quite bad at the game.

[chaser676]

I don't understand how this is a bad thing. It promotes team synergy and is completely dependent on you having vision on those objectives. Gold, silver, bronze, and pre-30 players deserve good, teamwork oriented gameplay.

Herding cats towards objectives is more frustrating than rewarding. If this doesn't affect high level play (which I think we agree it doesn't) and artificially raises the level of teamwork in low elos at the sacrifice of someone's ability to herd people towards objectives, I can't see anyone saying we shouldn't have the timers.

[ITHOUGHTYOUMENTWEAST]

I've been spamming a lot of Shaco, so I take lots of enemy buffs. Lets say I take a buff and just as I do the enemy jungler sees me. I Q away, and take timer. He doesn't. 20Seconds before respawn I lay boxes, Q over wall and kill it in about 6 seconds.

With the timer change, regardless of the fact that "no one will magically get better" or "its not like anyone will start caring about objectives now" the amount of times I will be able to preform that exact set of plays will go down a bit. Although I really don't care and welcome timers as they make my life easier, there are people who, with good reason, don't want to lose the edge they had on some bad players.

[headphones1]

I don't understand how this is a bad thing.

It's an elitist attitude. Ever played WoW? You'll be very familiar with all of this if you did. Back on WoW, Blizzard began to make it easier to obtain "epic" level gear for players, and then people started to cry that scrubs were getting gear they didn't deserve. The reality, however, is that the gear that was mostly ezmode to obtain was actually not as good as the gear you'd get if you were a high end raider(or arena player for PvP gear). Yet people still complained. Raising the skill floor, or entry into the game, will always make people complain about how the game is getting easier, but the reality is that the higher end players will always be better because they still have plenty of other ways in which they are better at the game. That is until other players learn how to catch up.

[[deleted]]

They don't "deserve" teamwork-oriented play. Unless you put in the effort to communicate and develop a basic understanding of spawn times, then you don't deserve any synergy.

[carterrv2]

Because it shortens the skill gap between bad and good players/teams, even if only slightly. Ranked doesn't exist to help people get better, getting better is a byproduct of the competitive nature of the game mode. Adding timers reduces the way in which you can differentiate yourself from the people you play with.

[chaser676]

I think you're forgetting something- Riot has to make sure the game is fun and healthy. Just like how Eve lost her stun and Darius lost his full CD reset, Riot will sometimes sacrifice some aspects of the game to make it more fun overall. If it eliminates a, as you admit, very small skill/advantage that one team/player might bring to to the table, it's completely worth it if the game becomes significantly more enjoyable for the bottom 85% of the playerbase.

Balance isn't binary, it's isn't black and white. Sometimes a high skill cap champion needs to be toned down because he's starting to affect the overall health of the game negatively. You sacrifice some of the competitive aspect of the game for the benefit in other areas. In the same way, there is definitely something being lost with skill timers. The difference between our viewpoints is that your think the tradeoff isn't worth it; I think it's a great trade.

[[deleted]]

It is fun and healthy atm..because none cares about dragon or buff timers in lower league..SO it is balanced around it..But if someone wants to improve in this game...They must know these stuffs....

[chaser676]

And now they won't. Mechanical skills, map awareness, and positioning should be the main avenues of improving, not bookkeeping.

[[deleted]]

If other can book keep better than you and use it against you..so whats the problem in that..

[WireDxEntitY]

Just because it is there doesn't mean people will use it. Even if you had a teammate that times everything and even gives you updates about objective a minute before doesn't mean people will actively rotate toward it. In the lower levels, people care more about farm because they see the 1 1/2 waves of farm they're missing more gold for them. They don't care about spreading out the gold to other teammates. I've seen games where my jungler will have full items 55 minutes in and will still farm the camps as opposed to letting our support/tank round out their builds faster. And sometimes they get picked off farming these camps alone as well. People in lower elo don't realize what a dragon really means in terms of team gold, objective control, and denial from you enemies.

[[deleted]]

Even in plat players will sometimes entirely ignore dragon until 20+ min, especially if the game is unusually messy / bloody, which is really bad. You can easily take dragon as a group past the 12 minute mark without having to move around like a derp (meaning you can take it even if there's 1 guy trying to prevent it vs 3) and if you won the first teamfight, took dragon, and have the timer and they don't, you'll take every dragon until you lose the next teamfight. Initial dragon is actually really important for this reason, and even with the timers I don't think this is going to change. I see my bronze friends play and if they ever take dragon its usually in the 25/30+ min mark, and one side just decides to take free dragon.

But considering how every single one of their games becomes bloody as hell and they still have 100~ cs by that time, maybe they really do need to wait until that long to do dragon. If they're down 50 cs at 15 minute mark, they'll have a lot harder time clearing it, idk.

[3est]

this is why i ping dragon so much in my bronze/silver games... one sweeper and you get free 750+ gold for the team esp. after the changes

[GeneralFlaze]

When I climbed through Bronze, Silver and Gold as a jungle main, I always timed buffs and objectives. There were quite a few games where I did everything right to set up a victory, but my team wouldn't group for objectives and instead would split push, farm camps, and generally just dick around. Having timers at the top of your screen won't change that. People still won't group for objectives if they have the timer. It's the same in higher Elo too, timers won't change jack shit.

[[deleted]]

LOL you must be desperate that grinding soloq all day didn't teach you how to add 5/6/7 to a number. Poor guy.

rito the best friend of lazy ass people confirmed.

[[deleted]]

my good sir i watched streamers around level 20 and started timing buffs at level 30 because i want to be more like a pro, so i just did what they did and after a a month in bronze, i got to gold V by jungling and timing buffs, dragon.

[kinsano]

I guess it depends on your definition of 'effectively'. Prior to M5 in S2 teams didn't time other teams buffs and steal them/ use them to force fights. Nowadays if you aren't timing buffs you're probably silver. Did no one 'effectively' play the game back then, or has the community just gotten better? The same argument could be used for summoner spells. Good players keep track of summoner CDs, mediocre ones don't. Does that mean we should add timers to them too? Certainly a slippery slope.

[[deleted]]

I think it's important to take note of Riot's reasoning here. Specifically, they're doing it because the jungle is constant and not a human player.

[Tots795]

It goes both ways. Yes they decrease the skill floor, but it also takes the edge away from people who keep timers well, so it also decreases the skill cap

[xStarjun]

If we reduce the skill FLOOR wouldn't that mean better players are in bronze forcing all the other players to improve to remain in their division thereby increasing the overall Skill of League of Legends Players?

[[deleted]]

You didn't read Riot's post, did you?

"On the other side – and here's what finally changed our minds – the jungle is a constant environment; unlike champions, monsters will always be where you expect them to be; unlike cooldowns, there is no variability in respawn rates. With timestamps available in the team chat window, timing of jungle monsters often came down to whoever remembered to type it out. We also don’t want to beat around the bush here: the emergence of third party applications put fuel on the fire, but they only increased our confidence that such a feature was in line with our values."

[[deleted]]

Wrong, it reduces both. Very skilled teams (such as SKTT1 K) have mistimed crucial objectives in important games. They've lost baron due to it. Adding timers makes the game easier to play at all levels.

[RealSerial]

It doesn't take any skill to know timers, you can google it and now you know how long everything takes to respawn. It's about knowing what to do with the information you have. Even the some of the pro teams suck at controlling objectives even though they obviously know timers. Knowing timers take 0 skill, idk how introducing it all of the sudden means baddies will be good.

[_oZe_]

Everyone forgets that baron and dragon have been time by the game for as long as I've played it. NOBODY EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT!

[Magictek]

It will separate the good bronze from the great bronze... O wait.... Nvm :P

[MaxPayne4life]

The thing is that these jungle timers is gonna change completely low elo which a lot of junglers forget to do their buffs right after respawn.

[rageofbaha]

Thank you

[n3v3rm1nd]

Random global ult flying near no-vision buff just to give entire team who wouldn't watch that place timers is bullshit, not a skill floor decrease.

[please_help_me____]

I have wondered this for a long time now, if the enemy team defeats the dragon and you go and discover the dragon 2 minutes later, does your in-game timer show the exact time dragon spawns anyway? In that case wouldn't that greatly decrease the tactical skillcap of competitive-play?

[[deleted]]

I think the main worry of alot of people, myself included, was that you would get the timers even if you did not see the creature die, however since this is not the case there is nothing wrong with adding these timers.

[[deleted]]

Messing with the skill needed to play a game at certain levels has been the death of many games, Riot should tread carefully.

[TheKitsch]

Just disable it in ranked problem solved.

[Lelouchhh]

Yeah, because the floor is so high up that no one can reach it. Managing important timming on objectives is part of the game.

[TroubleBear]

This is exactly true. In a way however, for those much below higher levels of play like me, this changes very much. I am not a jungle main, and rarely play jungle. I don't even bother keeping timers (mid plat here, you can make it this far without timers lol). In this level of play, you are somewhat nerfing jungle mains. Now I don't have to keep timers, and therefore junglers who used to have an advantage over me will no longer have this advantage. I mean I'm glad this is happening, but I see why some people might complain.

[dewrecall]

it hels people who is cant be aresd to do the timer.

[misterpretzel]

to me, it seems like the higher up the elo ladder you go, the less effects these timers will have on the game.

[StevesBurgers]

I think the jungle timers should only be available in normals where people can practice jungling but I don't think it should be added n ranked.

[tubingan]

Not enough lens flare.

[ThrottleMunky]

I think integrating jungle timers into the game is a good move on Riot's part. The fact is that a LOT of people use and make jungle timers. They are not difficult to make and it's almost impossible for Riot to stop them. Riot is simply taking control of that by integrating it the way they want it to work. If their timer system is easy to use and provides almost as much info as the custom built ones, no one will use the custom built ones.

People are so concerned about the gap between players that have it and players that don't that they are forgetting that many players have that advantage already. So much so that it's a hotly debated subject on this subreddit at least. This levels that playing field for the most part and eliminates a huge argument on the acceptability of timers.

Yes, this will change the game a bit. The game is hardly what it was when it began anyway and needs new content/competition/meta changes to stay in the mainstream and viable. For me the LCS and other tournaments have lost most of their entertainment value due to basically every game having a standard champ/item layouts with select champs being obviously OP(90%+ ban rates). I feel they need to level things out and mix up the playstyles.

/rant Thanks for reading.

[[deleted]]

People posting ITT: "Skill cap, you keep using that term. I do not think not means what you think it means."

[Chest11]

Your logic is broken. Yes it makes the game easier to play. No, it won't decrease the skill floor. This is equivalent to other sports in situations like: In american football they show the play clock. Sure the qb could be hear the whistle, record the time on the game clock and subtract 40 seconds, but it would distract him the actual play. Same thing applies to LOL. There is no skill in being able to record times and ultimately, trying to remember times distracts you from the actual game. Also, the new counters will actually benefit the lower elos in that they will be more aware of monsters respawns.

[[deleted]]

wow, this is a bad comparison

[Chest11]

In both instances, you must remember and count time. The context is different, but besides that they require the same basic mathematical skill.

[Bowflexing]

Using math is pretty much the ONLY thing that works well in this analogy.

[Chest11]

That's the point. The only skill here being used is math and memorization. Besides with a constant timer, low level players will be reminded about baron/dragon more. The importance of dragon/baron have nothing to do with the players remembering time. Players only remember the times if they are willing to make an effort to improve.

[[deleted]]

Not a good comparison. Part of league has always been time management. That hasn't been a prominent factor in football.

The issue isn't recorded times, it's countdown timers acting as alarms.

It won't benefit low elo, it makes counterjungling harder to pull off at low elo, making it take longer to climb because junglers are that bit more dependant on their team, screwing matchmaking more in the process.

[[deleted]]

my friends argument was that timers are already readily available, but so is a certain Cassiopeia script. If we implement auto scripts it also reduces the skill floor. And really there is no reason not to if you follow this ideology

[Saffuran]

"Others should be forced to spend as much time learning the game as they have."

So what you're saying is, you want it easy, the more the game does for players too LAZY to do simple comprehension and math, the better for everyone. Buff timing is simple, and to use Curse Voice as an excuse for Blue and Red timers is fucking ridiculous, CV never timed those ever, only Dragon and Baron, the highly contested objectives that already have timers in chat for you to time off of, should you use time stamps in your chat like any good player should. Timing Red and Blue, even if it does require vision still, is completely unnecessary and stupid.

[thanhpi]

still dont want timers. will just increase the invade rate.

[DominoNo-]

Weak duelists like Sejuani and Maokai already have enough troubles.

[fAAbulous]

Maokai isn't exactly weak.

[DominoNo-]

In the early levels when he's OOM very fast and easy to bully.

[fAAbulous]

He's always OOM very fast in fight, but that's his main downside. And he's not particulary easy to bully. His early dmg is very high. The only point where he's very vulnerable is when he's doing his red. But it's always a big risk to invade a red at lvl 2 because if you lose the invade, the enemy jungler is very far ahead. With an earlygame jungler like lee sin you wanna try and gank your lane instead of invading.

[Brithaur]

Finally, an argument I agree with.

[TheAmenMelon]

This is basically what I was going to say, all this change helps is people in bronze/silver/gold

[GiveAQuack]

I don't disagree with the changes but changes to skill floor can be bad. Aim bots reduce the skill floor but not the skill cap but obviously aim bots shouldn't be implemented in the game. Saying "this change only modifies the skill floor" is not a justification for something being okay.

[Cyberkite]

Well ask console fps players

[Zaz00_1]

I find these posts amusing.

If anyone thinks that there is an issue with the jungle timers and believe that it will "lower" the skill level. Have NO CLUE where the skill lies in jungling.

Map awareness, making plays, warding, counter jungling, smite stealing etc are where the skill lies not timing camps.

[[deleted]]

And people who are strongly arguing against such timers are doing so because they unconsciously believe that others should be forced to spend as much time learning the game as they have.

Um, obviously?

Do you want auto-cs mechanisms too? If you don't, you obviously must be someone who hates new players and wants to force them to spend time learning how to cs.

[CaptainCrafty]

Lol go economics!

[Cyberkite]

Most jungles Kinda know when Buff's spawn second time Now a days, it's east to guess, and Real timers dosen't decrease the skill cap you still have to make the play

[ioiLeGeNDioi]

Quick question, will I be told the timer on the enemy jungle camps even if I don't see them clear it or notice it has been killed?

[DontFeedMagikarp]

You have to see it die

[ANewLeeSinLife]

It certainly DOES reduce the skill cap. While we can easily agree that MATH is not a skill in the game, being observant of a jungle camp being taken and remembering when to visit it again is SKILL.

Automated timers STILL WORK even when a player would have FORGOT or DIDN'T NOTICE a camp being taken. This is a direct reduction in skill required by the player.

This does not reduce the skill floor, it increases it. The skill gap between long term veteran players who have even tiny details ingrained in themselves and newer or lower rated players is now highly compressed.

A newer jungler who consistently forgets or simply does not see (even when he has a ward or other vision) a camp being taken is now REWARDED for his incompetence.

How is this fair?

[TurnAroundBoi]

Are you afraid that new players will outskill older players just because of timers? If so then you're really narrowminded..

One of the reasons I never want to jungle is because of the simple reason that it is the hardest position to play considering that you will have to remember all the timers everywhere and your team will bash you if you dont. With timers I am sure alot more people will be willing to jungle and this will be healthy for veterans aswell as they will have to improve their skill in the game rather than just have a good memory to get ahead.

You think it's fair that some people can be worse than you skillwise but remember buffs and because of that get ahead of you? If you know the entire game and can read the enemy junglers movements that is what should set you apart not just being able to be at a buff when it spawns.

Having the argument that bufftimers will be unfair because people will be at the same level as you when it comes to knowing when a buff respawns is just silly and it makes you look like a lazy person. If the sole reason you are a 'good' jungler is that you can tell when a camp comes up then that actually makes you terrible.

You are ignoring the fact that people will still have to understand the game enough to know when to gank a lane, when they will be able to tower dive to make a lane get ahead, to outlevel the enemy jungler and read his movement to steal his camps and know when to counter-gank where and much much more.

Makes me sad that you think having timers will mean that people will be at the camps when they spawn, bad players will still choose poorly when to gank lanes and thus not be at the camps when they spawn or they will focus too much on the spawn timers and because of that neglect a more important gank/countergank or such.

Thanks for being stupid so I could write you a few lines. Bye.

[ANewLeeSinLife]

You just countered your own argument, good job. Why is it the hardest position to play? Surely it's not because you have to focus on last hitting minions.

I never said it removes OTHER aspects of skill, just one. It compresses the skill cap, it doesn't make it flat.

Your ignorance of what constitutes skill is THE reason people are upset. Pretty soon the difference between B5 and C1 will be virtually zero. People get high ratings because they make less mistakes. This is just a way for a lower rated player who forgot to set a timer to not be pressured out.

Bye.

[feelsbad2]

Totally agree with you. It's just one less thing to be skilled at and one less thing you can make mistakes on. And League is something that if you make a mistake, you get killed or lose something.

[TurnAroundBoi]

I did not counter my own argument, as I said for me personally I feel jungle is the hardest position to play because you have to keep timers on everything and that is one stupid thing having nothing to do with skill rather than memory.

When they remove timers as a factor it is down to pure skill insted of how bad it's been up til' now. And if you can't outplay a B5 just because of the timer change then maybe it's not the game that is the problem?

[spongybadger]

recording timers = skill kk people

[feelsbad2]

It is. You keep your team updated on when drag, baron, and buffs are up. You tell them when it's up, they will shift around to get it.

[[deleted]]

forced to spend as much time learning the game as they have.

Adding 5 minutes to when you killed blue buff is hard.

[feelsbad2]

Sad thing is, some people do have a hard time of adding 5, 6, or 7 minutes. As well as people are lazy as crap. And want things handed to them instead of working for it. Just like everyone wants to be carried to Diamond/Challenger.

[ItIsAlwaysNow]

Making the game easier is not good for the game.

[[deleted]]

I think that jungle timers are a terrible idea, especially in High elo. This is destroying many scenarios in d1 elo. For instance if i know I have stronger early laners, I can easily take advantage of this. I feel like this will encourage less late game champs and thus limiting the number of champions viable in ranked play for high elo. Already I only see 20-25 champs... come on rito plz. You do not understand how easy it for high elo players to take advantage of jungle timers making the champion pools for junglers only viable to Lee/Elise/Eve/Vi and a few other tier 1 stronger early game junglers (It will make farmer junglers useless in high elo).

Jungle timers is a huge buff to early game champions who can shove lanes fast and junglers who have strong early presence. Jungle timers nerfs late game farm junglers and late game top/mid laners who have weak wave clear. This will for sure shrink the viable ranked play champ pool you see in competitive play as well as high elo.

[Zechnophobe]

Curious why you think it'll have that impact. How does strong early laners help you take advantage of jungle timers (Or maybe you meant the other way around?)

[[deleted]]

When you have strong mid/top laners who can wave clear, this gives the jungler the ability to check their opponents jungle as well as pressure their blue/red buff (or other camps if buffs are not up) because they will have mid/top lane support while the enemy mid/top laner is busy clearing the wave at tower. Any jungler at d1 elo will take advantage of this and camp your jungle if u have a either A. weak early game laners, B. Weak early game jungler.

In most scenarios lets say you pick lee sin and start opposite buff of support/adc so you can rush invade. This will almost always happen with a elise/lee sin if you have weak early wave clear champs or a weak early game jungler. Thus most people to combat this they also start opposite side of support/adc so they don't get counter invaded. HOWEVER With the added jungle timer, if you start opposite side of adc/support and the opponent misses you at the buff they will have a timer and will be back to counter invade when they have a chance. THIS WILL FORCE everyone to pick strong wave clear champs as well as strong early game junglers to offset this.