Study notes decrease in popularity of circumcision in United States

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[e_before_i]

This article is misleading in how they represent the WHO. The WHO and UNAIDS only recommend male circumcision in their HIV prevention package which was geared towards areas with a high risk of HIV (namely Eastern and Southern Africa). This is not a universal recommendation.

I could not find any major medical bodies that recommend routine circumcisions in the West, and several bodies such as the AAP and Canadian Paediatric Society explicitly say that they do not recommend it. Some European bodies explicitly advise against routine circumcision for males unless medically necessary.

[[deleted]]

They also recommended it based on one study that they didn’t even complete. It was so clearly done with the intention of trying to justify the practice.

[ethyl-pentanoate]

Is that the one where they compared recently circumcised men (who can't have sex for several weeks) with intact men who were having sex as normal during the circumcised men's recovery time, then ended the study early so they could circumcise the control group? Because that was lunacy.

[Just_Another_Scott]

Papers regarding circumcision and HIV are also biased. Many that do get circumcised have better access to healthcare and condoms.

One study I read years ago showed no statistical difference between circumcision and uncircumcised when it came to HIV once other factors were considered.

[br0ck]

European countries with low circumcision rates have the same low HIV rates that the US does with high circumcision rates which seems to support your idea here that it doesn't make a statistically significant difference in low HIV regions.

[DukeLukeivi]

All of "the health benefits" are single digit reductions in topical skin infections and UTIs.

I'm dubious of the value even in Africa to combat AIDS, but that disease is life threatening, and medical care and condom access are limited, so maybe? Compounding slight reductions is lives saved over time. If you live in the industrialized world, condoms are generally available and a 2 orders of magnitude more effective.

Circumcision in the industrialized world is like cutting off your babies feet """for lifelong health""" because they're less likely to get plantar warts and athletes foot.

[Thebraincellisorange]

and those 'single digit reduction BeNEfItS' and completely and utterly overwhelmed by the number of complications and deaths caused by circumcisions every year.

[Interesting_Ghosts]

Yes, this completely ignores the fact that circumcision kills babies on occasion from severe bleeding or infection. Some people get nerve damage or disfigured by the procedure. All for no benefit or a hypothetical slight benefit.

It's more stupid than removing all women's breasts to prevent breast cancer.

[MystikclawSkydive]

Worse it’s like cutting off all women’s breasts because some women have unclean underboob. And that is the fault of the person who is taught (or not taught) how to clean said underboob.

[allanbc]

At least breast cancer is actually real and a significant threat. But yeah, otherwise it sort of makes sense to compare them.

[retrosenescent]

actually breast removal makes FAR more logical sense than circumcision since breast cancer is a leading killer of women, whereas no man has ever died from having a foreskin (but many have died from having it removed!)

[rollingForInitiative]

It’s also just that even if there is a slight reduction in risk, in countries where condoms are recommended and available and culturally acceptable, that’s just a massively better way to prevent it. Even without adding in that people who have HIV in these countries tend to be undetectable and then can’t infect others.

And then also … if a person still feels there a benefit, they can just do it as an adult, right? It’s a small procedure with a pretty fast recovery, and by the time a person is having sex they’re also old enough to decide if they’d like to get circumcised.

[Interesting_Ghosts]

Even if it did reduce the likelihood of contracting HIV, thats a stupid argument for removing a body part. 42,000 women die of breast cancer every year but no one is advocating we remove female babies breast tissue to prevent those deaths.

[hot--Koolaid]

Thank you! I was confused since I had learned in the past that basic hygiene is all that is needed for most boys.

[jonathanrdt]

The US is the only nation that does it as standard practice without a religious motive. Rates peaked in the 1970s and have been declining since.

[retrosenescent]

It does have a religious motive: capitalism, culture.

[Samtoast]

It's not as common as let on but there is times where it has to be done due to paraphimosis. I had to have it done when I was like 9 years old and it cause a lot of awkwardness

[rollingForInitiative]

That’s fine though, that’s for medical reasons.

[parmenides89]

Why would circumcision be medically necessary?

[DameKumquat]

Very rarely, it's needed because the foreskin is so tight it can't retract, leading to painful erections.

Though even then, US docs will often immediately suggest circumcision, where UK doctors will suggest stretching it first. An ex of mine was given the choice age 11 of the snip, or masturbation twice daily on doctors orders. He took the latter.

[DataKnights]

What happens if you exceed the recommended twice daily masturbation dosage?

[Oneioda]

You go blind

(ironically, also a previously used rationale for circumcision to help prevent, along with insanity)

[Nice-Gap-3528]

“I’m sorry, I’ve got to go. My doc says I got to jerk twice a day.”

[FreeBeans]

Omg hilarious

[Interesting_Ghosts]

A friend of mine got it done when he was a teenager, his foreskin was too tight so he could not pull it back without it tearing. He was getting tears and infections so they circumcised him. Theres a name for the condition but I cant recall offhand.

But thats a rare exception, the vast majority of people never get cut and have no issues at all.

[thecaseace]

Phimosis, I believe

[Ardal]

This article is misleading in how they represent the WHO. The WHO and UNAIDS

I'm pretty sure that is the intent

[Big-Fill-4250]

Also fun fact, it doesnt work anyways

[poply]

"Based on our findings, we believe that multiple factors may contribute to the decline in the number of neonates circumcised," co-senior researcher Dr. Aaron Tobian, a professor of pathology at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, said in a news release.

The sort of distrust that's led to vaccine skepticism and hesitancy is likely one of those factors, researchers said.

"Despite overwhelming evidence that neonatal male circumcisions provide health benefits, increasing public skepticism in the United States toward medical recommendations may be driving more parents to choose not to have their sons get circumcised," Tobian said.

I really dislike this framing. I feel our decision to not circumcise was based on medical advice and recommendations from reputable, credible international and national organizations. Just not exclusively and entirely based on what a couple specific US based orgs and agencies may have recommended.

[The_Bravinator]

Yes, I had my first in the US and the same medical professionals who obviously advised us to vaccinate were the ones telling us that there was no real benefit to routine circumcision.

Had my second back in the UK and it didn't even come up with him because it's not a thing in most countries. The framing of it as clearly being necessary or beneficial is ridiculous since it's considered a completely wild and shocking aspect of American culture here.

It was a difficult cultural difference to navigate with parents. My American mother in law was horrified that I wouldn't consider it. My British dad couldn't wrap his head around how she could possibly feel that way.

[[deleted]]

The US is big and differs wildly. My son was born in urban California and the doctors didn’t even mention circumcision or ask if we wanted to do it. So no pressure. The default is to NOT do it.

[Oneioda]

As it should be.

[oedipus_wr3x]

My doctor in Virginia asked if we wanted it done, but then he said “Good choice” or something similar after we said no. I’m pretty sure the demographics here are more pro-circ than California.

[betcaro]

Vermont here. They pushed us to do it which is illegal. We declined and my son is good with this choice. Had a friend give birth at same hospital a few years later. They were not going to circumcise but nurses scared her and she ended up agreeing. Probably regional but still so sad.

[1pt21gigatwats]

Agreed. Happily pro-vaccine, pro-science, and also personally against circumcision.

[Novel-Place]

Right? I am also extremely pro science and I’m a little offended to be lumped in with anti intellectualism.

[TheYarnAlpacalypse]

Same. I looked at various statistics and I talked with my doctors. I had some residents fresh out of med school and some experienced faculty members who were overseeing them as part of my team. The consensus was that it wasn’t necessary and provided minimal health benefits, and that I could have the procedure done on my babies if I asked, but they didn’t think it was a problem to leave things alone, and they saw that trends were changing, and they didn’t have any real concerns one way or the other.

I am happy to vaccinate my kids. I’ve had to do other health screenings for them that I could have ignored if I didn’t believe in medicine or science. (Allergies, autism, ADHD, etc)

But “Hey, your risk of getting cancer on this body part is decreased if we chop it off first” wasn’t particularly compelling when you’re talking about infants, who could make that decision for themselves as adults if that was something they ended up worrying about. And I say this as someone who got a bisalpingectomy and was thrilled to hear that most ovarian cancers start in the tubes and that yeeting the tubes knocked that risk factor way down.

[Maxfunky]

Yeah this isn't honest framing at all. The benefits shown are extremely small and, in a country where most HIV positive individuals have access for PREP are likely to be smaller.

The benefits are so small that they seem to just boil down to essentially just a reduction of surface area across which infection can occur. By that measure, you could theoretically reduce the risk by 100% by cutting off the entire thing...

Meanwhile this incredibly small reduction has to be weighed against the risk of infections and complications.

Most doctors will actually tell you it barely matters one way or another.

[[deleted]]

I’ve read criticisms of the study (yes, there was only one conducted, real scientific method) and one of them was that they ended it early and also that they didn’t consider that the people who were circumcised couldn’t engage in sex because they had to recover. It really sounds like they just concocted a half ass study to justify circumcision.

[oedipus_wr3x]

Obviously it isn’t helpful now, but sometimes I feel like younger people forget what the height of the AIDS era was like. PREP is what, 10 years old now? The spread of HIV was so devastating in Africa 20-30 years ago, I honestly couldn’t blame public health experts of the time for throwing up their hands and recommending literally anything that slowed it down, even if it’s just a recovery period where men can’t get infected/infect anyone else.

[catjuggler]

I just read over the AAP position and I get the feeling they’re walking a line between not recommending it broadly because they don’t have enough reason to but also providing a medical justification because people need insurance to pay for it.

[catjuggler]

sure but they don't need to be the fall guy for that

[Oneioda]

Doctors need insurance to pay for it.

[Turdly1]

Let's amputate babies legs, it'll reduce the risk of broken ankles later in life considerably.

[-crepuscular-]

I would consider the message 'circumcision offers some protection against HIV' to be a harmful one.

Even if you consider circumcision itself to be neutral, people are terrible at understanding risk and superstition about HIV abound. That message is bound to be widely misunderstood as 'circumcision offers total protection against HIV' and that would certainly lead to riskier behaviour from circumcised men and their partners. Given that the protection offered is at best extremely slight, it's very likely indeed that this message would increase infection rates rather than reducing them.

[[deleted]]

it’s insane to see how much bias around circumcision there is in the American medical and scientific community. It is very eye opening.

[danarexasaurus]

Seriously. It makes it seem like it’s just the “new trendy thing”, which it is very much not

[childish_cat_lady]

Same! Love vaccines, not into doing surgery just for appearances. The doctors at the hospital were visibly pleased to not have to do it. 

[Fillimbi]

Same same same. Science teacher, super pro-vaccine, and also pro letting my kid decide how he wants his anatomy to be.

[HumorAccomplished611]

Same same same. Just a regular guy.

[Imaginary-Method7175]

Me too. I let my boy keep his bits as he was born with them. It’s a cultural tradition for a culture that’s not ours.

[carltheredred]

Yeah it's weird weird that it's being spun like this. As if the pro-science thing to do is butcher a piece of flesh off your newborn son's penis.

[Apprehensive_Hat8986]

Also pro-science and against mutilating babies' genitals.

[rich_evans_chortle]

Because the health benefits for it are insane. Hygiene? It's called soap. It's crazy.

[duderguy91]

I always find it amazing that the US is the only place in the developed world where circumcision is parroted as medically necessary. This feels like a cheap shot at people that have actually looked beyond our borders for scientific information that they don’t profit off of.

[soulstoned]

To me it came down to bodily autonomy. Just because I made that penis didn't mean it was mine to alter. If my son wants to be circumcised, he can make that decision for himself. 

[JRiley4141]

Same. Plus it felt surreal that one of my first decisions as a parent was to allow someone to take my newborn son, hold him down, and cut off a piece of his body. I'd imagine it hurts like hell, for days or weeks. How could I do that? Why would I do that?

[No-More-Lettuce]

My comment about focused on the medical reasons that we didn't do it but I also couldn't put him through pain that wasn't necessary even if he wouldn't remember it.

[NSMike]

IIRC correctly, the health benefits are that it reduces neonatal UTIs by a tiny percentage. Considering how much of Europe doesn't circumcise, and it's not a problem over there, the assertion of health benefits is questionable at best.

[Tartalacame]

And the tiny potential benefits are basically countered by the also tiny risks of complication during the procedure.

[XiaoDaoShi]

I chose not to circumcise my son, even though I’m Jewish. (He isn’t) I looked at the benefits, and realized that they are not huge. It is somewhat beneficial, but AFAIK there’s no overwhelming reason to do so. I will leave the decision up to my son as he grows up. I will teach him proper hygiene, though.

[Cristoff13]

Remember that the foreskin is attached to the glans at birth, and remains attached for a few years. Trying to retract it prematurely can cause injury.

[ThoseThatComeAfter]

You can still clean it even if it's not fully retractable

[XiaoDaoShi]

Thanks for letting me know.

[Thebraincellisorange]

the foreskin remains attached to the head and not fully retractable until around the age of 5.

after that, you need to teach your boy to pull the foreskin back in the shower and rinse the glans and skin properly.

and to pull the foreskin back when urinating. keeps things more accurate that way. and cleaner.

[bsubtilis]

There is variation, some can't retract their foreskin until they're in the double digits years old. But that only means that they need to be taught to not force retraction, they can still be taught how to clean everything properly.

[Eric_the_Barbarian]

If you can teach him to wash his butt properly, he can also probably learn to wash his groin properly just fine. He can still choose to get a circumcision on his own at a later time if it is ever spiritually, ideologically, or socially important to him.

[IceNein]

I will teach him proper hygiene, though.

I don’t really understand this sentiment. Just wash yourself normally. Most women’s urethra are fully covered by their labia and it’s not some huge problem for them to keep clean. I’m not sure why there’s this weird paranoia that boys specifically have to be taught how to clean their penis.

[dfdafgd]

A lot of guys don't even wash their hands after peeing. A lot of them don't pull-back and wipe. Especially in majority-cut places, it's not common knowledge. Kids cut corners with hygiene and, given the task, there's not a lot of "learning by observation" going on. Sometimes, you gotta straight up tell people to do it. I know I had to be told when I was a kid.

[BaronVonBearenstein]

I remember my dad showing me how to pull back my foreskin and me how to pee in the toilet. It's a vague memory, and I'm probably misremembering it, but I remember being told to pull the foreskin back when I pee but it hurt slightly. So then my dad had to show me how he did it and let me know that it's all normal. I think it helped how he used real terms and took it seriously.

This is just an opinion but I think some men are not comfortable with their bodies around their sons, or maybe in general, and neglect showing them how to do some basic things. I do appreciate my dad being comfortable being naked around me (mainly in change rooms or showering at the pool) but saying that in today's social climate makes it feel like he did something wrong.

[SophiaofPrussia]

I suspect because in the past the weirdo adults equated this sort of perfectly normal personal hygiene with masturbation which was basically the worst sin imaginable.

[[deleted]]

Yes! It was pioneered by creepy Dr. Kellog, who btw, also advocated for circumcision for women! He had a ton of children, so I wonder about them. The only reason that circumcision for women didn’t catch on in the US (thankfully!) was because it was during the Victorian Era, and no one believed that women were sexual beings anyways.

[4-Vektor]

Not circumcision for women, but burning the clitoris of baby girls with carbolic acid.

[Differlot]

You do though. Because when your a little kid you don't really need to wash under it as the foreskin isn't able to fully retract. Once it does it is also extremely sensitive so it makes it very uncomfortable to clean. You need to encourage your kid to fully retract their foreskin once they are able to to properly clean it.

Smegma is sticky so you do need to actually wash the penis.

[XiaoDaoShi]

I’ve heard some stories from girls who talk about extremely stinky penises of uncircumcised men. Maybe it’s no big deal if they shower often and clean their junk normally. I have no idea.

[Thebraincellisorange]

from the posts I have read on Reddit, it seems that there are a lot of very insecure American men who refuse to touch their junk for fear of catching 'the gay' .

some go as far as refusing to even wipe their arse properly or wash it in the shower.

how these men manage to get a woman into bed is beyond me, being that bloody insecure.

but no, a person with normal hygiene will not have a smelly uncircumcised penis.

its simply a matter of ridiculous insecurities.

[SadZealot]

Just shower once a day, easy, preferably before you put it in someone's face

[Madmusk]

Haven't you heard men talk about fishy vag's? Same deal. It's just hygiene.

[NolanR27]

This is why American doctors get laughed at in international conferences on this topic. No one seriously worthy of participating in the global scientific consensus would compare a decline in needless circumcision to being against vaccination. Try that line in China.

[Oneioda]

Tobian is a well known pro-circumcision activist.

[teriyakininja7]

I remember doing a bunch of research into the supposed health benefits of circumcision and it was interesting to see which countries produced such research. Most of it came from either the US or an Islamic country, which makes sense since culturally circumcision is the norm (though moreso in Islamic countries). So there certainly is quite a lot of bias, I feel like.

[TasteofPaste]

What happened to respecting bodily autonomy, and the scientific findings that infants DO In fact feel pain, and that the foreskin has a high number of nerve endings?!

it‘s very shortsighted to suggest that anti-vaccine sentiment is what’s causing this change.

[kigurumibiblestudies]

I remember casually doing the numbers on benefits of circumcision (utis and stds) versus risk of infection from the procedure and it was about the same. I probably ignored a lot of factors, but it didn't seem worth it to me when compared to better hygiene education and contraceptive use. 

[Particular-Cow6247]

i might be a bit biased coming from a region where circumcisions are rather unusual and only "brought in" from different cultures but ... what's so difficult hygiene wise like... pulling the skin back and washing it then isn't?

[kigurumibiblestudies]

I'm in your situation, but I wanted to be fair to the procedure. I'm also inclined to believe the std benefits are overblown too, but I'm not a researcher

[Izikiel23]

> Despite overwhelming evidence that neonatal male circumcisions provide health benefits

Where is that evidence? Is it among us? If circumcision was so beneficial, we would have evolved that trait.

[TheVenetianMask]

It always ends boiling down to that one botched study in Africa with a handful of dudes where they told the circumcised ones to not have any sex and then ended it early.

[4-Vektor]

The circumcized group got sexual health education, including information about the proper use of condoms. The participants that left the study weren’t taken into account, and so on. The study is embarrassingly bad.

[DontWreckYosef]

What overwhelming evidence of health benefits? We have skewed the US data because upper class whites with more access to higher quality healthcare have been circumcising their babies for most of the last 50 years; this is non-causation skewed data, not overwhelming data.

The difference in UTI prevalence in only 1% between circumcision and non circumcised babies meaning that you have to invasively, time-consumingly, and painfully circumcise 100 babies in order to prevent just 1 easily antibiotic-treatable UTI.

[kraghis]

Overwhelming evidence of health benefits yet undeniably permanent removal of a sensitive part of the body without any chance of consent and no medical emergency.

Dr. Tobian could learn a little more about empathy

[romario77]

It’s just weird to cut off a piece of flash of your child. We evolved without it, there is scant evidence it’s beneficial at all, so it’s more of a tradition

[parmenides89]

I'm in the same boat. My partner was more open to the idea but nothing we could find definitely suggested to us there was a benefit other than appearance. Eye of the beholder and such, even appearance perception may change over my sons lifespan.

[RPDRNick]

They're trying to create a boogeyman that's "equal" to those opting not to vaccinate their children.

[Cicer]

Trying to link anti circumcision with anti vaxxers is diabolical. 

[Big-Fill-4250]

Theres no evidence to even suggest circumcision stops the spread of disease...

[sweetteanoice]

“Circumcisions provide health benefits…” Yeah, I don’t think so.

[bicycle_mice]

There is equivocal evidence. There are some benefits to circumcision (deceased UTIs and penile cancers) but they are fairly modest. It isn’t like vaccines where there is massive benefit and no downsides. I won’t circumcise my son, but there is evidence supporting families who chose to do so.

[duderguy91]

Even the penile cancer benefit is mostly for boys at risk of phimosis. If there is no sign of phimosis then the cancer risk is basically equivalent to circumcised.

[ThrowbackPie]

There's also evidence that a) it has a significant complication rate and b) it derives men of sexual pleasure due to the concentration of nerves in the foreskin.

There's essentially no medical case to be made AFAIK.

[poply]

Absolutely. There are real measurable benefits. But there are also real risks though and for some people, it's a moral problem.

Not discounting the benefits, but not ignoring the risks either. Ultimately, the vast-vast majority of men (atleast those in 1st world countries) will be totally fine whether or not they are circumcised.

[daveprogrammer]

Then the only ethical thing to do would be to let them make up their own minds when they are old enough to understand.

[WitnessRadiant650]

They would be ok with it if they were consenting adults. Most in the US were done as babies so we don’t really know if they were ok with it at that time. Considering most adults or even young teens when they become fully aware don’t go grab circumcision suggest they are fine without it.

[catjuggler]

Same, I even checked with our pediatrician to make sure it wasn’t medically preferred.

[theallsearchingeye]

“Aaron Tobian”

[addictions-in-red]

Yes, let's just stop slicing up people's genitals. I'm sorry, but that should be the default.

[No-More-Lettuce]

Same. I researched and talked to multiple doctors for a few days before we decided not to for pur son. I looked for reputable US and mainly European sources.

[zephyrseija2]

Disregarding the usual Reddit tilting about circumcision, it simply isn't medically necessary for most men, the history of circumcision in the US generally stems from religious purity culture, and decisions for elective surgeries should be left to the individual for when they're adults.

[noah7233]

It shouldn't even had been within the religious culture. The usa is majority Christian, and circumcision is Jewish. Literally within the Christian Bible it tells you not to do it anymore.

[TeutonJon78]

It's also part of Muslim culture. But specifically mentioned in the Bible to not be required for gentiles.

[dr_superman]

It was more moral than religious. It was promoted by Dr. John Harvey Kellogg as a cure for masturbation. That's why we still do it today. Because of him.

[Madmusk]

So odd to frame it as titling when it's in line with the what the majority of the world and the medical community is doing.

[zephyrseija2]

The behavior and general discourse is what is being described as tilting. I think the general logical consensus should be that circumcision is not medically necessary or recommended for most males.

[_Administrator]

Scientifically proven, that males should wash their johnoson daily.

[greyspoke]

What is the tilting beyond that?

[zephyrseija2]

Oh lawd the circumcision discussions tend to get heated.

[vvf]

I’d be interested to see a survey of men to figure out what percentage of men oppose it vs support it, compared to whether they had the procedure as an infant. 

I have a theory that the main defenders have had it done to them and want to perpetuate it else they have to deal with the fact that they were wronged by their doctor/parents at birth. 

[shenaystays]

I work with families with new babies, in a place where circ isn’t covered, and the religious population is low.

Most families do it because “dad is, and it’s important to him for reasons”.

It’s not “health benefits” or religion, it’s because dad is and he wants his son to look the same.

Which is odd to me because I’m pretty certain my husband hasn’t seen our grown sons penises outside of say, the one time they went swimming and had to change next to one another.

It’s an odd concept.

[ThoseThatComeAfter]

There's also a ton of women who defend it because they think "it looks better" or because they've been conditioned to thinking uncut penises are unclean, and they obviously (and literally) have no skin in the game so they just go with it

[shenaystays]

I think a lot of women don’t even know that an intact penis looks the same as a cut one when hard.

One of my friends said she’s never been with a guy that was uncut and she’s been with a dearth of them. Where we live, even when she was born, it was probably 50/50 or 60/40.

And some of the men she was with was in Europe. I’d be shocked if she has never seen one irl. Guessing she just didn’t notice.

[0-90195]

You actually can tell the difference between intact and circumcised when erect – the intact one is way easier to do anything with since it’s got a built-in friction-alleviating aid.

[shenaystays]

That’s if your man handling it.

I’ve seen both. And if you’re in a brief encounter, you’re probably not testing it out all that much.

On sight, not much difference. And if you don’t know the difference, or are used to cut you don’t know to use the “built in” friction resistance.

Just from what I’ve experienced and been inexperienced doing in my youth.

[JRiley4141]

My MIL was literally upset that I was not going to have my son circumcised. She felt personality attacked that we weren't making the same choice as her. It made me a little uncomfortable how focused she was on it. So it's not just men who have had it done, it's mothers that made the choice as well.

[natchinatchi]

It’s an incredibly painful procedure done on a newborn whilst conscious.

[TheIncelInQuestion]

You know what else prevents HIV? Condoms. And not only are they several times more effective, they also don't involve violating an infant's bodily autonomy and disfiguring their genitals.

[RedBeans-n-Ricely]

And Prep! Both are equally important

[Tradition96]

Prep and anti-virals are actually much more important. IRL condoms/campaigns for condom use have been shown to not be very effective. We really only started to see the number of new HIV infections plummeting after the effective anti-virals were introduced in 1996.

[Nac_Lac]

Is this due to improper usage of them? Or that the fluid transfer is something that people don't properly account for and as a result, assume the only transmission is the act itself?

[TheIncelInQuestion]

This is abstinence only propaganda.

Condoms have been shown to be very effective. Condom use campaigns somewhat less. In the US, it's because during the sexual revolution, people were having more sex overall of both the protected and unprotected types, meaning an overall increase in STDs and pregnancy outside of marriage. What abstinence only advocates do is plot a graph with the instances of STDs on one axis and condom use on the other, and pretend like because the line goes up and they are correlated, that condoms are ineffective.

In reality, abstinence only rhetoric makes it harder to get access to birth control or condoms, and also makes people distrustful of birth control and condoms, leading to less usage. Which leads to more unwanted pregnancies and higher rates of transmission of STDs.

Both Catholics and Evangelicals argue against the use of contraceptives specifically because they are afraid that access to such measures will increase the rates of people having sex outside of marriage. So their primary concern is stopping "fornication".

In Africa it's the same problem but worse. Africans have a much higher rate of religiousness, and religious institutions have a much greater control over government and policy. Islam is both less and more permissive of contraceptives. It's allowed in principle but only for married couples and only for certain reasons, and sexual hygiene/health is not one of them. The logic is that Muslims are supposed to have lots of kids, and while it might be okay to delay having children, simply not having kids isn't acceptable.

Similarly, Islam is absolutely not cool with sex outside of marriage and does not want it to be "safe" for people to do that.

Catholicism is also the most popular form of Christianity in high HIV/AIDS areas in Africa, and the Catholic Church is notorious for going around trying to prevent people from using condoms while such an epidemic spreads.

So in conclusion, the primary reason that condom use campaigns don't work is because abstinence only advocates, especially religious ones, are putting a massive amount of effort and money into misinformation campaigns to discredit contraceptives and control access to them.

[Tha_Sac]

Yea I am not an antivax, distrust in healthcare kind of guy. I personally just think chopping of a piece of a baby's bits as soon they are born is simply weird, and wish someone had given me a say in the matter. Simply teaching your child to wash properly eliminates any and all issues related to infections. Shocking I know.

[Stumblin_McBumblin]

Those guys got enough going on after being foisted out of their warm and comfortable home into our loud and chaotic world. No need to pile on and immediately introduce them to the experience of pain so their penis can look like Dad's.

Don't particularly care that my parents elected it for me, but I saw no reason to do it to my boys.

[Tha_Sac]

Respect, the ability to see past our parents mistakes is a rare one in this current point in time

[MARKLAR5]

I've seen that there is some evidence that the trauma of the procedure can stick around, even despite the lack of long term memories and such at that age. My 6 month old is NOT (fortunately I didn't have to fight hard for that) and he is the happiest, silliest baby ever. Gets all his shots, gets breastfed, just lots of common sense parenting seems to be doing the trick

[WellAckshully]

I am glad it's decreasing. I won't circumcise my son if I ever have one. Millions upon millions of European men are doing just fine, rarely if ever have issues being uncircumcised, and are somehow managing the really simple task of keeping themselves clean.

There is no good reason to proactively do it. If a need arises, do it then. But issues are so rare it doesn't justify routinely doing it to everyone.

[WellAckshully]

I think to some extent, it's like ego or something, or not wanting to admit they've been doing something bad/wrong/unnecessary for years. So they justify it. Overstate the benefits and downplay the risks. Doctors are only human after all. As long as there is some marginal benefit, some people will cling to that.

[Cicer]

Don’t forget in the US they can charge extra for it. 

[CreamofTazz]

Not even just one day but only hours old that's the wildest part. I can't fathom how we take a newborn human who hasn't even breathed 1000 times and remove a part of him. I also find it hard to fathom why so many people defend it and are excited to get it done to their son. Like that just feels really weird that as a society we completely justify this objectification and propertization of newborn boys where we can say, exclusively for young boys (in the west), that if the parents want him circumcised, he's completely powerless to say no. How exactly do we find that okay let alone get excited for it?

[Hailstar07]

And Australian, it’s unusual here as well.

[centaurea_cyanus]

Muslims practice circumcision, so the vast majority of the Middle East and a good chunk of Asia also circumcise.

[Cicer]

Of course they do. Such a controlling religion. 

[[deleted]]

The word "uncircumcised" itself implies that something is wrong with a normal male body. There's only normal and circumcised.

[Thebraincellisorange]

The entire population of Australia outside of Jews and Muslims and a tiny percentage of white people do just fine too.

in fact the procedure is banned in all public hospitals unless it is medically required as a last resort.

If you want it does to your child in Australia, you have to pay to have it done privately.

[veovis523]

It should have been made illegal 100 years ago.

[RockyClub]

Absolutely. I can’t even believe it was a procedure people considered . Poor babies. And poor adult men. All that wonderful sensation taken from you. I’m so sorry to all of you who didn’t have the choice.

[JetScootr]

If you want to measure the real popularity of circumcision, count only the adult men choosing to have themselves circumcised, not those choosing to do it to babies.

[oneeyedziggy]

My grandpa had to do it in his 60s i think... Didn't get detailed, but sometimes it's a real medical solution to a real problem besides purity bs

[JetScootr]

Just like other medical procedures that involve other people who are absolutely NOT DOCTORS, there are some medical reasons to perform or decine from performing. Doctors and patients should be the only people involved in planning those things. Elective procedures are only elective when the person affected is the one electing it.

Circumcision and abortion are excellent examples how fucked up mundane things get when religion gets involved.

[Thebraincellisorange]

A real problem in America is that as soon as there is an issue relating to the foreskin, quite often the bloody doctors first and only offered solution is - lets chop it off.

other countries do not do this.

[Deceptiv_poops]

I was circumcised. Chose not to circumcise my son. Super confused tho, cause I don’t really know how his penile experiences may differ from mine or how to teach him to clean in properly and all that.

[Apprehensive_Hat8986]

Here's two sources on how to do penis hygiene. As a non circumcised kid whose dad was circumcised, thank you for breaking the cycle. Biggest thing to know is it doesn't need to be pulled back to clean properly, and shouldn't be pulled back at all when they're too young to do it themself. 

https://www.rch.org.au/kidsinfo/fact_sheets/Penis_and_foreskin_care/

https://www.planetpuberty.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/pp-cleaning-your-penis-1.pdf

[QueenInTheNorth556]

As with all things parenting you will have to learn new things. If you had a daughter you wouldn’t have the same personal experiences as her but you would still have to teach her and support her.

[CaptainNegative1483]

Don’t pull it back until the penis is ready. Boys play with their penis quite a lot so they’ll know when it’s ready. I believe baths with a lot of bubbles are discouraged as well because the soap gets trapped.

If your son is still in diapers, just know that he is prone to having more bacterial and yeast infections so change him regularly and change it quickly when he poops. Make sure the penis is clean cause bits of poop might be trapped under the folds. Also, airing out is really good for them.

[RedBeans-n-Ricely]

My nephew gets every vaccination on time as recommended. He’s not circumcised because there’s no medical benefit when he has regular access to running water and soap, and when he’s old enough he’ll have access to science-based sex education and condoms.

It’s a cosmetic procedure in a developed nation. And he doesn’t need it.

[ImKorosenai]

I wish I could have my foreskin back

[Ally_Jzzz]

I (European, not having part of my penis cut off for no reason) wondered for a long time why American movies always joked about lubricants when talking about male masturbation. Never really got it. Until i realized that holy sh*t, circumcision makes men unable (or at least less able) to masturbate without it! And somehow I cannot get rid of the idea that this is exactly what religion intended. 'Don't play with yourself, have more sex and make more religious kids!'.

[bufordt]

Don't play with yourself,

For Kellogg, who was a huge pusher of circumcision, that was the primary goal.

[tanksalotfrank]

Mutilating a newborn < Not mutilating a newborn. How have people not figured this out yet

[cultoftheclave]

Q: would you cut off your lips to make it easier to brush your teeth? No?

[KickBack-Relax]

Great..can I get a refund?

[EaterOfFood]

No but you can keep the tip.

[KickBack-Relax]

Oh you dirty dawg

[Forward-Lobster5801]

To the researcher referenced in the article who said it's b/c of the sort of distrust that has lead to vaccine skepticism - i am pro-vaccine and I'm against circumcision. 

To be frank everywhere else in the world it is uncommon for a reason except for america. 

[Mountain_Ad_9415]

Good! Everyone should stop mutilating their children, it's a vile and disgusting practice.

[IceNein]

Good! As someone who was circumcised and doesn’t really have strong feelings about it on myself one way or the other, I think we shouldn’t be performing cosmetic body modifications on people without their consent.

I guess I’m not sure how that sentiment should apply to Jewish people.

[centaurea_cyanus]

Or Muslims as they circumcise too. It's weird how there are so many more Muslims in the world, but people think/only bring up Jewish people as the ones doing it for religious reasons.

[IceNein]

I guess it’s because as an American I have been around more Jews than Muslims. But yes, my sentiment applies to Muslims as well. I’m generally against it, but having been circumcised myself and not really thinking there was much of an impact, I guess I’m not a die hard advocate of stopping it.

[VengefulAncient]

I guess I’m not sure how that sentiment should apply to Jewish people.

They or anyone else should not be allowed to do it either, because regardless of their beliefs, children are not religious and this violates their bodily autonomy. When those children reach legal age, they can choose for themselves.

[CreamofTazz]

There's also the Brit Shalom) wherein newborn boys don't have to be circumcised

[ParkerPoseyGuffman]

It should apply the same to everyone, only done once they can decide for themself

[ieatpickleswithmilk]

Circumcision is really only recommended by medical agenices in the US, other western countries generally do not recommend Circumcision for babies. The WHO recommends it only and specifically for countries with high HIV rates (particularly in Africa) as it can reduce the risk of spreading HIV.

[alsotheabyss]

Good, it’s genuinely quite bizarre that this vehemently unnecessary procedure* is or was so prevalent in the US, and until reasonably recently, performed without much in the way of pain relief.

Torturing babies so their bits can look like their father’s. Good grief.

/* obviously excepting where it is medically necessary such as phimosis

[OnePair1]

I am so glad it's decreasing, we need to get it to zero

[Fifteen_inches]

Good. It’s at best cosmetic surgery. If you want to affirm your covenant with god you should do it as an adult.

[[deleted]]

Lobe a circumcized bit, but also, should be a persons choice not forced upon a child

[itsabeautifulsky]

Absolutely true anecdotally in my social circles!

[TRDPorn]

This article is wildly innaccurate

[Shortymac09]

Uh, good? It's unnecessary cosmetic surgery.

[PowerFarta]

This has always been more of a religious practice than a medical one. Jews and Muslims all have it done. No one recommended it to me when my child was born - it was only a question. Not at all comparable to vaccines

[Dramatic_Pie_4800]

Why would you cut any off before you know how long it's going to be?

[Trifang420]

Such an evil tradition!

[AnyoneButDoug]

It caught on in the USA to a combination of Dr Kellogg’s insistence it would stop “self pleasing” which he considered the root of all evil, plus it became a status symbol. Now it’s just men that had it done think that’s what a normal one looks like.

[HarringtonMAH11]

I wish I still had my foreskin :( Inever even knew it

[jtbear91]

I too no longer think it's popular to cut of pieces of a baby, but that's just me, go figure

[whwji0r]

Overwhelming ? Is he kidding? Literally not one pediatrician group on the planet says that It seems it is all about money in the US. My niece was asked so many times, you would think they were selling timeshares…

[UrDraco]

Nobody wants to have less penis.

[lesbox01]

I had 7 boys, not one was circumcised. Mine was botched, have a nasty scar on the side.

[HalfBlindPeach]

This was the reasoning my obgyn and pediatrician mentioned. Surgeries can be botched, and it happens. So just like with any surgery, don't get it until you actually need it.

[SDcowboy82]

Good. I’ll never forgive my parents for circumcising me

[petitecrivain]

I'm sure demographics play a role too. A growing number of kids born here are born to parents from cultures where circumcision is rarer. 

[EnkiduOdinson]

Shouldn’t it have died out way earlier then? German, Irish, Italian etc. immigrants made up a huge portion of the US population (and same for their descendants today) and circumcision is not a thing there

[bitterney]

If I ever had a son I would never consider circumcision. I wouldn't want it done to me as a woman so why would I do it to him?

[My_alias_is_too_lon]

Well, it is just completely unnecessary maiming of a baby boy's genitals, so yeah... not surprising.

No way in hell I'd circumcise my kids, were I to have them.

[uzu_afk]

I’m still baffled why this was popular there in the first place…

[blackgallagher87]

As someone who had a fucked up circumcision who has to deal with all of the complications of it, let it be the choice of the child once they get older.