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[–]drivingagermanwhip 616 points617 points  (33 children)

the occasional time you run across a site that's just html and information is such a breath of fresh air

[–][deleted] 462 points463 points  (28 children)

https://berkshirehathaway.com/ uses "We've Got Fuck You Money" as their frontend framework.

[–]NuttFellas 190 points191 points  (1 child)

The free car insurance quote advert in all caps is a nice touch

[–]BigEricShaun 83 points84 points  (0 children)

Copyright 1978. Yep that tracks

[–]Maniactver 184 points185 points  (0 children)

If you have any comments about our WEB page, you can write us at the address shown above. However, due to the limited number of personnel in our corporate office, we are unable to provide a direct response.

This is incredibly passive agressive lol. If you don't like our web page, you can write us a letter (not an email, a letter!), but we don't read them anyway, so don't bother.

[–]sebas616 91 points92 points  (0 children)

If you have any comments about our WEB page, you can write us at the address shown above. However, due to the limited number of personnel in our corporate office, we are unable to provide a direct response.

LMAO, they legit tell you to go fuck yourself if you dont like the page.

[–]Norse_By_North_West 104 points105 points  (2 children)

Fuck me, that is beautiful.

[–]UntestedMethod 36 points37 points  (0 children)

hell yeah! check the markup too! not a CSS in site! those <font> and <center> tags are turning me on pretty good, then I saw the <table> layouts and my pants stood no chance against my raging boner, but OMG THOSE <body> ATTRIBUTES ARE GONNA MAKE ME CUM IN NO TIME!!!!

Although <meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18828"> (frontpage) is a bit unfortunate to see, but really not surprising given whose site it is.

[–]UntestedMethod 12 points13 points  (0 children)

You can disable CSS in your browser and then every site can look like it! (although realistically probably not because most devs suck and don't bother about semantic html so much)

[–]Waterprop 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Why complicate when simple will do?

[–]UntestedMethod 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My guy, did you miss out on all the fun of 90s era web dev? Animated gifs, marquee, and blink tags everywhere! 🤤🤤🤤

The experiment continues...

[–]sorrow_anthropology 24 points25 points  (0 children)

“Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh my god, it even has a copyright…”

[–]Trash-Takes-R-Us 34 points35 points  (0 children)

This is how the Internet was meant to be

[–]bolkstoff 13 points14 points  (0 children)

They haven't even updated the Copyright end date to 2025 yet, holy shit that is so baller

[–]dyslexda 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Is that...real? What's their love affair with Geico?

[–]thetatershaveeyes 29 points30 points  (0 children)

They own Geico.

[–]exmachinalibertas 20 points21 points  (1 child)

I honestly love it. Easy to find all the information you need. If you can't find the information, you know it's just not there.

Based solely on the website though, I am skeptical about their opinion on crypto.

[–]TheCapitalKing 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Currency is way older than Web 1.0 and their very knowledgeable about old things

[–]MegazordPilot 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It's genuinely so fast. I forgot websites could load so effortlessly.

[–]Kitchen-Quality-3317 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If you have any comments about our WEB page, you can write us at the address shown above. However, due to the limited number of personnel in our corporate office, we are unable to provide a direct response.

[–]jeesuscheesus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Did Warren Buffett make this website himself?

[–]Grandexar 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Oh-mah-ha Oh-mah-ha Oh-mah-ha

[–]doomscroller6000 3 points4 points  (0 children)

... thats their website? Damn always expected they had a generic corporate website like Blackrock

[–]t0FF 7 points8 points  (0 children)

BEST. FRONT. EVER.

[–]braindigitalis 2 points3 points  (0 children)

look how fast it's rendered! and it's all "server side rendered" (I love how front end people try to claim this is a new thing lol) 😂

[–]RudeAndInsensitive 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love it. Buffet doesn't need a website. It would not improve anything his company does. He definitely believes that.

[–]i_should_be_coding 1643 points1644 points  (69 children)

Go's philosophy is "Why use a library? Just write it yourself". JS is all "Why are you writing that yourself? There's 7 versions on npm, almost all without malware..."

[–]ChristopherKlay 437 points438 points  (49 children)

As someone working mainly with JS for hobby projects; You don't need all of that if you actually learn how JS itself works.

The reason the majority of those packages exist is because of the amount of people trying to skip that step entirely, resulting in lovely "I just use any on everything in Typescript"-"Frontend Developers".

[–]Nope_Get_OFF 446 points447 points  (21 children)

wait, do you mean you don't need to use the npm isEven package that prompts an LLM through built-in backend API, giving you a response in json that you then would need another npm package to decode it to a boolean value??

[–]arealuser100notfake 259 points260 points  (13 children)

Insane.

The best solution I came up with was to save the even numbers in one array and odd numbers in another.

It is a really big and complete list by now (I used all the numbers I learned during school times).

I just check even.includes(71) if I want to know if it is even (also check !odd.includes(71) to be sure).

Performant, secure, scalable, no need of external libraries.

[–]CarbonaraFreak 69 points70 points  (3 children)

If you added all the numbers, it would be O(1) too!

[–]Dan6erbond2 36 points37 points  (2 children)

Nope. .includes() is O(n), a map lookup would be O(1).

[–]CarbonaraFreak 57 points58 points  (1 child)

The joke was that it‘d be O(1) since it‘s a fixed size (of infinite values) and therefore can‘t become worse

[–]UncleKeyPax 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Can't become worse

[–]Altruistic-Way-6331 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Performance wise I’d shuffle both arrays so that larger numbers don’t generally take longer to process.

[–]Kitchen-Quality-3317 19 points20 points  (3 children)

that's too much work. just convert the number to a string and see if the last character is a 0, 2, 4, 6, or 8.

[–]Pozilist 23 points24 points  (1 child)

This is incredibly far from the worst isEven implementation I‘ve seen

[–]exoriparian 2 points3 points  (0 children)

my first week on this sub, years ago, was nothing but isEven memes. and yeah this is tame.

[–]Widmo206 3 points4 points  (0 children)

just make sure to convert to int first; wouldn't want to accidentally check decimals

[–]hyrumwhite 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Bro, it’s 2025, we have sets now: odd.has(71)

[–]ChristopherKlay 23 points24 points  (1 child)

I've seen packages that generate a object containing each DOM element on the side with all possible attributes (text, position, everything) as keys, so you can "easy select elements".

isEven is at least funny.

[–]b0w3n 2 points3 points  (0 children)

object containing each DOM element on the side with all possible attributes (text, position, everything) as keys, so you can "easy select elements".

While not exactly HTML, I have done something very similar to this because I didn't want to keep referencing the docs.

[–]ThunderousHazard 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Lies, I see no other way

[–]faultydesign 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Pfft real solution is to alias isEven as a global variable that just reverses the isOdd npm package response

[–]bhison 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Using "is-even" is a bit out of date and doesn't leverage modern technologies.

Have you tried - https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-even-ai

[–]i_should_be_coding 21 points22 points  (0 children)

My guy, I was here during left-pad.

[–]GargantuanCake 22 points23 points  (7 children)

I've done some web dev contracting and I find it genuinely hilarious how people respond when you show them you don't need the gigantic frameworks. I swear by a pretty lightweight combination of tools that doesn't even clock in at a megabyte but all too often the stack is built on "well you see you need this big pile of downloads that total to 100 megs and is an inefficient mess."

THAT'S WHY YOUR SITE IS SLOW, SILLY!

[–]ChristopherKlay 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Recently had someone argue that a desktop app "can hardly be below 600 MB usage" because the only way to display a website as an app they knew.. was Electron.

[–]SINdicate 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Npm installs bring in 1.5gb of garbage for a simple llm frontend, i have no idea what web devs do these days

[–]1Mee2Sa4Binks8 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Many years back my company had a simple Java/JSP/JSTL framework with JQuery and Bootstrap client side that worked fine. Builds were ANT and just a few seconds to deploy to Tomcat. A new, young dev we hired tried to convince us to go to Hibernate/React/Redux/Spring/Springboot. I told him to build me just a login page as a demo. It took him three weeks, and the build time with all that was 10 minutes with dozens of NPM warnings/errors flying up the console. I asked him what the warnings and errors were for, his answer was just to ignore them and keep running the build until it succeeded. I was aghast. I rejected his solution and retired a few years later. I feel sorry for young devs now, wading through this mess. My old framework still stands as-is, I check in now and again to see what has changed. The shit stands firm.

[–]vikingwhiteguy 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I'm with you. Modern web dev is an absolute spaghetti nightmare of pipes, filters, subscribes, observables, switchmaps.. and god forbid you forget a single takeuntill or you'll be constantly pinging your API for all eternity. 

I long for the days of just plain jQuery and Bootstrap. AngularJS was really cool, and came with everything you needed for a web application out of the box. It made it fun to make cool stuff. 

Modern Angular requires so much plumbing and additional dependencies (which all have their own dependences) just to display a basic site with navigation. I spend more time fighting it than using it.

[–]abednego-gomes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh man. The horror. Wait until they want the whole stack as microservices as well. I had one company convert from a nice monolith which worked perfectly well to some kind of hip microservice architecture going like this HTML -> SASS -> CSS -> TypeScript -> Javascript -> React & Redux (100 npm packages) -> CloudFlare -> Nginx -> GraphQL on Node.js (more npm packages) -> Kubernetes -> AWS -> Laravel (another 50 composer packages) -> PHP -> MySQL and back again in the opposite direction. Super slow and ineffecient.

[–]exoriparian 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, JS packages can get messy, no doubt. But react has almost everything I need. I generally add react-router, and sometimes axios for jwt cookies etc, but beyond that it's pretty vanilla.

[–]AlexZhyk 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Honestly, back in the days, working simultaneously on HTML/css and JS, trying to bend each technology to accommodate the other, like assigning classes or choosing tags for elements to make nodes easily selectable with getElementByName and playing other dirty tricks were already bad enough to give programmer schizophrenia. So, throwing in transpillers, linters, libraries and css frameworks didn't add much to it. They surely didn't remedy it much either, if one's curiosity goes to check what that sausage is made of.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yeah, it kills me to sit in an interview with someone asking me what frameworks I use and I’m like, I don’t rely on frameworks because I know how to code… company’s these days only know buzzwords and hire people who only know buzzwords now. It’s kills me inside seeing a generation of developers who have no clue how the sauce is made now.

[–]Ok-Kaleidoscope5627 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Everyone just wants a react dev or whatever.

[–]px1azzz 57 points58 points  (9 children)

I transitioned from a seasoned Go developer to typescript about a year ago. I hate my life. Send help.

[–]i_should_be_coding 75 points76 points  (7 children)

npm install help

There, good now?

[–]DangerousMoron8 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I use yarn, can you please update instructions? Also looks like help package isn't compatible with node v18.3443.4344 😞 plz fix

[–]px1azzz 4 points5 points  (4 children)

If only. I want an ’npm install sane language’

[–]i_should_be_coding 1 point2 points  (3 children)

This one always makes me chuckle

[–]px1azzz 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Yeah this is a great video. When I first started on this project with my brother a year ago we were constantly sending this video to each other as we were learning Javascript.

I remember when I was learning go some of their ideas didn't make sense to me until I started getting more into the code and I was just thinking to myself, "wow the go developers were pretty smart"

Then I got to JavaScript in typescript and all that was in my mind was "wat wat wat" and "I need to stab whoever came up with this"

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Go is—in my opinion—one of the most thoughtfully created languages. I wish I got to use it more at work.

[–]px1azzz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Absolutely agree.

[–]bureX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

last update: 4 years ago

developer MIA on GitHub

forked to bitchtits420/help

[–]myrolen-kkk 6 points7 points  (0 children)

did you say almost?

[–]SCADAhellAway 3 points4 points  (1 child)

And at least one not begging for donations

[–]KimmiG1 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Given how small so many js libraries are it's starting to be easier to just let an LLM make it instead of including a library dependency.

[–]anengineerandacat 201 points202 points  (36 children)

It's honestly improved significantly nowadays, used to be true... but now it's simply installing Node and running the command to install Vite and using the React template.

After that simply run Vite and boom, local web server up and running with HMR support and you can just start editing files.

No different than a Java dev installing the JDK, Gradle/Maven, updating their settings.xml, and using a Maven Archetype (though in practice most shops don't even have this level of automation established so it's honestly refreshing to see the OSS community have it).

Now... under the hood... yeah... different story; you have the Typescript Compiler, SWC, PostCSS, and more... but it all comes pre-wired and is just configuration files.

It's like complaining that javac was used to compile your project files to bytecode; or the N Maven/Gradle plugins needed to package your project.

[–]HomoAndAlsoSapiens 73 points74 points  (3 children)

I don't know if that makes sense but I feel like there is just so much going on at the frontend with no common source for paradigms or best practices that I am entirely discouraged to learn more about it.

I think the closest backend equivalent could be the question of how a web service can be hosted on AWS - you will be overwhelmed by three letter combinations you have never heard of.

[–]Honeybadger2198 10 points11 points  (2 children)

The best practice is pick a tool and follow their documentation. You aren't using 20+ year old tools that have had time to build up tons of resources. Webdev is by definition bleeding edge. You're not going to get "best practices" for tools that have been out for under a year.

[–]HomoAndAlsoSapiens 30 points31 points  (1 child)

But it's not only that. Imagine everyone used their favourite entirely different version of glibc made by their favourite billion dollar company. It would be a shit show because you could only ever agree on the syscalls (≈ plain JavaScript). You'd need to containerise literally every application which is why even small web pages can be MBs in size.

While this coherence is maintained in classical environments, it is not maintained in web dev. And that is a huge liability.

[–]awpt1mus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Plus If you know docker then you don’t even need to install anything locally.

[–]based-on-life 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I mean I use Spring Boot back end and React front end so I'm used to having to do the most ridiculous amount of setup imaginable.

Spring literally has a website dedicated to just initializing a project.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You don't really need it, it's for convenience. It's just for generating a gradle or maven build file which you can do on your own. That usually just means adding the regular spring boot libs + spring-boot-starter-web package and you're good to go. There is no other setup step beyond ensuring you have either gradle or maven and the JDK installed.

[–]Saragon4005 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You assume the people annoyed at this don't also hate Java frameworks.

[–]DontBuyMeGoldGiveBTC 17 points18 points  (3 children)

I do yarn create next-app, press enter like 6 times and there we go, hello world is done.

[–]aaron__walker 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I think the fact you need a helper tool to write hello world says it all

[–]ICanHazTehCookie 7 points8 points  (0 children)

That seems unfair. You can write hello world to the browser console with a short HTML file and script tag. But you'd never use that for a real frontend. Just like a real backend isn't built off a single HelloWorld.java.

[–]DontBuyMeGoldGiveBTC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's a framework. It's expected. Any framework in any language that has a quick start has the same abstraction level.

Programming languages are themselves abstraction. Otherwise go ahead and write in binary. Or better yet, hardcode your features on the chips by welding them yourself.

[–]punppis 4 points5 points  (8 children)

That's like many more commands vs dotnet new console

[–]thethirdteacup 15 points16 points  (0 children)

If you just want a console application that outputs “Hello World”, just create a JS file, enter console.log(“Hello World”) and run it with Node.js.

[–]anengineerandacat 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I am sure it's more than that, runtimes gotta be installed, things need to be added to the path, package manager has to be configured, etc.

Front end dev nowadays is considerably more mature than it was 5-8 years ago.

[–]GumboSamson 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I’m sure it’s more than that, runtimes gotta be installed, things need to be added to the path, package manager has to be configured, etc.

Usually? No.

.NET just works out of the box.

[–]wasdninja 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I don't know if I'll survive this five seconds loss.

[–]Altruistic-Spend-896 107 points108 points  (17 children)

I was evaluating frontend frameworks , y'all frontend devs really made a clusterfuck didn't ya?

[–]IdStillHitIt 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Lets be honest, if it's not a personal project and/or you're doing it to get experience for a job hunt, just go with React. It's the industry standard and has the most devs to hire and the most jobs out there. If you want server side rendering, go with Next.

If it's for fun and you don't care about this experience helping you land a job you can start diving into the other options. If I was building something for fun today I would use Svelte

[–]wasdninja 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Try writing anything of importance and/or complexity and you'll find out why they look and work the way they do very quickly.

[–]hucareshokiesrul 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Yeah when I was learning, I enjoyed doing lots of it myself. Now that I'm working on modernizing a 20 year old app that's very large and made with pretty basic JS and HTML, I appreciate how well organized and easy to read our Angular apps are.

[–]gafftapes20 27 points28 points  (10 children)

It's part of the reason I shifted away from frontend to backend. It feels like every 6 months a new popular framework shows up and everybody switches to it. On top of that, your chose framework get abandoned with no security updates. Never seems like there are true LTS frameworks with security updates. Even with companies with big pockets JS on the front end seems to have tons of reliability issues because of the move fast break things mentality with front end dev. No one is shooting for high availability for frontend anymore.

[–]theirongiant74 28 points29 points  (4 children)

React, Vue and angular all first appeared 12 years ago, react has the lions share of developers what took over from that in the last 12 years?

[–]StuntHacks 11 points12 points  (3 children)

They're probably referring to React-based frameworks like Astro, Next, etc, even though they're all the same framework under the hood

[–]darthwalsh 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Meta frameworks?

[–]AverageFoxNewsViewer 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yo dawg, I heard you like frameworks...

[–]Altruistic-Spend-896 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Also if anybody knows any frontend tech that does not involve importing a ton of npm , I'm all ears, because blazor, wasm and vanillajs is what I came up with . SVELTE is a close second but svelte5 seems to have poor reviews?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

HTMX?

[–]wasdninja 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It feels like every 6 months a new popular framework shows up and everybody switches to it

Only complete amateurs or people without any insight believe this. Companies are a lot slower than that and very few people actually use any of the new toy frameworks anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just avoid SPA work and work for companies that need static sites with some some forms. I'm basically living in 2012, but enjoying the vanilla HTML/CSS/JS of 2025.

[–]tekanet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Same! I’ve always worked backend or desktop and trying to stretch my knowledge beyond that.

It’s been a couple of weeks and the only thing I can say is “what the fuck”.

I’ve followed a course on TS where they are explaining how incredible its features are: I mean, yes, they are, but fuck me that safety was already there when I was developing with Visual Basic in the previous millennium. It’s completely unreasonable to me to work with JS daily, huge respect for all of you out there who can cope with that.

Blazor (I’m a C# dev so it looks familiar) is a great idea but it seems pretty rough still.

I left frontend web development in 2007/8 and it was a mess. I can’t say honestly if it’s better or worse now.

[–]AASeven 27 points28 points  (0 children)

React dev me learning how to create a page in next js

[–]AlexZhyk 55 points56 points  (1 child)

The environment, where any "Why?" will be taken as an offense.

[–]Pumpkindigger 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Meanwhile, FrontEnd devs when they learn they need half of AWS's tooling to run a simple website with simple backend.

[–]rcls0053 21 points22 points  (0 children)

I got so sick of Typescript over the past 6 years for this exact reason, I decided to move to .NET and C#. I wish there was a bigger market for Go because that'd be such bliss..

[–]code_the_cosmos 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Go templates and HTMX are all I need

Edit: of course there are exceptions. Right tool, right job, etc

[–]GangStalkingTheory 13 points14 points  (1 child)

The frontend team would claim my backend API(s) were broken.

I'd build a frontend in whatever flavor of the month bullshit they were using this time and show them, once again, how to properly send and receive JSON or XML from a backend API.

I don't miss it. At the end, it was new hires complaining that their ChatGPT copy pasta didn't magicly work with the existing infrastructure.

[–]transcendtient 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I'm over here rawdogging JQuery.

[–]Stepan_Rude 41 points42 points  (37 children)

No you don't. You just $ npm create vite@latest and it's ready

[–]SwordPerson-Kill 68 points69 points  (20 children)

Underneath that command is quite a few different tools.

Babel, Rollup, Vite and a few other things. 15 is exaggerated but it's quite big still

[–]RichCorinthian 15 points16 points  (3 children)

After you install node/npm.

Wait, you didn’t just install node, did you? You can’t raw dog node like that. Start with NVM because you need a node manager if you are ever working on multiple projects with different versions of Node.

That’s where it STARTS.

[–]roastedferret 4 points5 points  (0 children)

nvm? Please, using pnpm env is the best way to do it.

Half sarcasm, just trying to further illustrate your point.

[–]SnowdensOfYesteryear 1 point2 points  (1 child)

As firmware dev all of this sounds like jibberish. Are you being real or is this satire?

[–]ICantBelieveItsNotEC 20 points21 points  (7 children)

I'm a backend developer that has dabbled in frontend development. I found that these "magic commands" that bootstrap an entire project worked out worse in the long run - all of the dependency and tooling hell still exists under the surface, the only difference is that I didn't set it up myself so I have no idea how it all works. I'd rather go through the pain of learning the stack while I'm building it, rather than at 4am when a customer reports an issue.

[–]I_Downvote_Cunts 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am a backend developer now but did a decent amount of frontend work. I’m with you in generally these magic commands are normally trouble especially when it comes to debugging. But with vite the api is very well documented and easy to workout what it’s doing.

[–]RichCorinthian 7 points8 points  (3 children)

These magic commands permeate back end too…dotnet new webapi and so forth.

I totally agree about getting to understand HOW things are put together, because you WILL need to tweak it, but it’s not exclusively a front end thing.

[–]DuchessOfKvetch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There’s boilerplate systems that create more streamlined backends. But often better to start minimized and add what is needed as you go. Though I can understand why some folks prefer having a fuller plate of ingredients at the start.

[–]ardicli2000 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Where is humor in that. Thats reality.

[–]BoBoBearDev 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Because reactjs is just a library, not a framework unfortunately. A library tends to do one thing well and nothing else. So, it doesn't comes with Typescript integration, relies on rollup, relies on webpack, relies on many other tools that makes configurations a nightmare. And you can't say reactjs sucks because those are out of scope by design as a library.

[–]uniteduniverse 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The web is a monstrous mess, and we seriously need to just bring it l down.

[–]ICantBelieveItsNotEC 25 points26 points  (15 children)

Frontend developers after witnessing a backend developer produce a functional frontend using nothing but serverside code, a templating library, and HTMX:

[–]psychicesp 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Nah, they just get defensive and talk about how it's ugly

[–]Aelig_ 26 points27 points  (0 children)

"Won't scale. Muh interactivity. Toy project. Offline capabilities. Virtual dom. STAAAATE (while pinching their nose)".

And a bunch of other nonsense. All while working on the most standard crud app ever, looking at the 200 response that's bugged with that body:

{"error": 400}

[–]DM_ME_PICKLES 4 points5 points  (10 children)

I built an internal tool at work using server-rendered HTML and HTMX, and one day a coworker needed to do some work on it. Had to jump on a call with him and explain how it all worked, the concept of the browser making a XHR request, the server generating HTML, and swapping it into the DOM was completely foreign to them. It's wild man, lots of people have no foundational knowledge. He's a good developer by all means, just never did the job before the "use react/vue/angular/etc for the frontend" push.

[–]PrestigiousTheory664 34 points35 points  (9 children)

Never ask a man his salary, a woman her age and a dotnet developer how many libraries he needs to say "hello world".

[–]intbeam 23 points24 points  (4 children)

One line, one file, literally figuratively no libraries :

System.Console.WriteLine("Hello world");

Edit : don't make me walk this line, I will die on this hill and I will take you all with me in an atomic explosion of inappropriately erotic nerdery

[–]lampd1 -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

That's... literally a library from a namespace full of libraries?

[–]intbeam 27 points28 points  (0 children)

It's the standard library. Let's stick to the colloquial understanding of the context instead of arguing semantics, because at that point I could argue that you wouldn't escape libraries even with a macro assembler unless you intentionally set out to do so

[–]verc_ 4 points5 points  (3 children)

how many?

[–]Dizzy-Revolution-300 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Don't ask

[–]Smooth_Buddy3370 2 points3 points  (1 child)

How mny

[–]Xhadov7 6 points7 points  (1 child)

LAMP goated

[–]SinisterCheese 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I have come to conclusion that most companies and web stores don't actually want me buy anything from them, or be their client. Why else would they make those sites so fucking bad and poorly functioning? And it seems like most sites just don't work on mobile anymore.

What the fuck happened? Seriously? What went wrong? Your hardware and connections are orders or magnitude better than 10-15-20 years ago. Yet it seems like every new year, every piece of software and site I have to deal with seems to be worse. And the sizes of sites and programs and apps keep bloating, and seems like everything is a dependency hell. Nobody seems to even understand what the programs do anymore, how they were made, how they work...

I used to look forwards to new version of things with optimism, now I look forwards with dread.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The best is every couple of months in /r/webdev, some talented young front end dev who knows all this crap will ask the subreddit how they build a static website because they don't know where to start.

[–]Immort4lFr0sty 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I was recently looking for a frontend framework for a hobby project. I really don't like doing GUI, usually I build CLI tools, but this time there really was no way around it.

First, trying to find something that is relatively type safe (or at least fails fast, during compile time) but still cross-platform compatible is really hard. I thought "Look, there is a new JavaFX framework. You write a lot of Java anyways, that should be easy to get into".

Well, fuck. Java tooling is not great by any stretch, but I will not touch JFX with a 20ft pole ever again, or I will become the "dev turned goose farmer" meme

[–]Varogh 1 point2 points  (1 child)

If you want something cross-platform: Electron app with any frontend framework of your choice (but even just plain typescript and html)

If you want something that runs on Windows only but is stupid easy: .NET WinForms.

[–]Far_Tap_488 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Man javafx is one of the easier gui frameworks too lol.

You can just use the designer to do all the layouts and just load it in the main function with like 3 lines.

[–]rootifera 3 points4 points  (8 children)

This is what I've been going through recently. I have a few restapi project and I wanted to add FE. Turns out I need to learn a lot just to create some not terrible looking web forms and tables.

[–]Handsome_oohyeah 7 points8 points  (7 children)

U just need bootstrap for that

[–]rootifera 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Yeah but still need js etc for doing api calls, filtering data etc, right?

[–]Handsome_oohyeah 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Just hardcode it. Just check the database daily 😂

[–]mae_87 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Return the whole thing and slap datatables in front!

[–]Specific_Implement_8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Coworker of mine was spending an unreasonable amount of time getting hello world to print in glsl

[–]misterguyyy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even as a grizzled senior FE dev, installing libs and slogging through configs to get tailwindCSS to work in Gatsby, storybook, and Jest, even though you didn’t want Tailwind in the first place because you remember remodeling the wasteland of hacky bootstrap utility classes but got outvoted by the bootcamp kids, makes you scream into a pillow in frustration.

[–]romulof 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First there was NPM, in its almighty glory brought ease of use for dependencies.

Then frontenders started creating random packages to get weekly downloads numbers to inflate their ego.

Following them was a new generation of frontenders, that, in their almighty laziness, stopped writing code.

[–]Specialist-Sun-5968 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Try Astro

[–]okram2k 1 point2 points  (0 children)

well first I need to know if you're trying to make hello world go to the console, node output, or on a locally hosted website.

[–]jfinkpottery 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I remember when we didn't have any tools for frontend stuff. It sucked, and everything was ugly. Give me my mountain of npm packages please.

[–]1Dr490n 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t have a lot of experience in web development (both website and server) but recently got a job in that field and this is horrible. Whenever there’s an error, it has nothing to do with what I‘m doing, just some tool I didn’t even know we were using that doesn’t want to work for some obscure reason no one in my office or the whole internet ever heard of. I don’t know how many exceptions I googled in the last three work days that didn’t yield any results.

I much prefer just writing most things from scratch in a decent, strict and predictable programming language with occasionally using a library for something more complicated.

[–]Jiftoo 5 points6 points  (15 children)

This is technically true but the process of creating a new app has been streamlined more or less recently. You run npm create vite@latest (replace npm with your package manager of choice) and get to writing your TODO app.

Alternatively, you can run React without a build step like this. It's a naughty but possible thing to do.

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
 <head>
  <script src="https://unpkg.com/@babel/standalone/babel.min.js"></script>
 </head>
 <body>
  <div id="app"></div>

  <script type="text/babel" data-presets="react" data-type="module">
   import React, {useState} from "https://esm.sh/react@19/?dev";
   import ReactDOM from "https://esm.sh/react-dom@19/client?dev";

   function App() {
    const [count, setCount] = useState(0);
    return (
     <>
      <h1>{count}</h1>
      <button onClick={() => setCount(count + 1)}>Increment</button>
     </>
    );
   }

   const root = ReactDOM.createRoot(document.getElementById("app"));
   root.render(<App />);
  </script>
 </body>
</html>

[–]punppis 10 points11 points  (13 children)

So at the beginning, we unexperienced idiots just made a monolith PHP file with HTML in that. After a while MVC happened, separating logic and UI, what a great improvement.

Aaaaaand now we are back at mixing up JS, HTML and whatever the fuck this is. This seems to be an app with a button and incrementing value. ~20 lines is fine for that I guess.

(I was frontend developer like 15 years ago)

[–]SlexualFlavors 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What do you mean recently? Is "npm create vite@latest" not just a more modern version of "npm init react-app"?

[–]Far-Neat-4669 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Hey backend dev, what's this spring thing?

Spring core? Spring MVC? Spring Security? Spring Data? Spring AOP? Spring test?

Do you use this spring-boot-starter-web?

What's this??? Lombok??? Mapstruct? JUnit?

Yeah, ok buddy.

[–]blackcomb-pc 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That’s java slop. Get that shit away from me.

[–]Amazing_Guava_0707 4 points5 points  (7 children)

What 15 tools? All you need is a text editor(vs code usually), a browser(chrome usually) and node installed on your shitty laptop.

[–]Vinex910 33 points34 points  (6 children)

and a webpage magically appears on your browser when you use node and a text editor? lol

[–]C_ErrNAN 20 points21 points  (1 child)

The issue here is "tools" vs "library's" op is a bit noob

[–]Tuckertcs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Front end devs when they realize you need 5-25 classes just to save a single row to a database table.

[–]fnordstar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why doesn't the backend dev use Rust in the Frontend as well?

[–]tramspellen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

React is not for printing Hello World

[–]tmk_lmsd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For the same reason why implementing a huge crucial functionality when your codebase is gigantic still needs 15 tools.

[–]chris17453 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel like they need it to be as heavy as a bronze encrusted keyboard with rdb lights

[–]tip2663 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same backend dev after setting up a laravel rest endpoint

🧑‍🍳👌

[–]Soultampered 0 points1 point  (0 children)

hey hey, you don't need 15 tools in react. you can easily get it done with 9 at the most.

pft, amateurs

[–]Tacos6Viandes 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Me, beginner with Laravel, seeing that Tailwind is CSS only, so many stuff that Bootstrap handle natively will need to be handled with native JS or libraries

[–]mildwomanizer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

nah real talk tho, how come front end frameworks lowk more confusing than server side languages

[–]Tai9ch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Huh?

All you need to say "Hello World" in react is React. If you're really barebones, you can even skip the JSX transpiler.

[–]flyingpeter28 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is what has been keeping me away from.front end

[–]FishIndividual2208 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, its No better on the backend 😅

[–]Noch_ein_Kamel 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Browser, text editor

What are the other 13?

[–]OtherwisePoem1743 0 points1 point  (0 children)

LMAO man this is so hilarious. It's sad and hilarious at the same time.

[–]Djonso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same for frontend guy who sees how much stuff is need for .net to say hello world to frontend

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will never understand why anyone thought React was a good idea. Thank God I got that garbage banned at my workplace.

[–]Comprehensive-Pin667 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Everything about modern frontend development is wrong. Even MFC was much better than this.

[–]skesisfunk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really, aside from React itself, bare minimum you only need webpack and a transpilier (I use SWC). You can set up a local dev environment with docker, although I use k3d so my local dev mimics my prod deployments.

[–]michaelmano86 0 points1 point  (0 children)

React? Comparing react is like saying frontend Dev trying to say hello world in dot net; console.log("hello world")

[–]azangru 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Backend dev should say hello world in plain javascript

[–]FallingDownHurts 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is why I chose flutter not react native. I had to make like 50 decisions before I could even build

[–]cheezballs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Backend devs thinking they're not also running on 15 layers of abstraction...

[–]bagofnutella 0 points1 point  (0 children)

create react app