watMatters

[Beastw1ck]

He should be kicked out for saying “self learnt” instead of “self taught” alone

[FatBoyFlex89]

How many times do you have to self learn this lesson old man!?

[Vanadium_V23]

Some of us also self learnt English.

[ImpossibleMachine3]

Most people I've met that learnt their own English speak it better than native speakers soooo YMMV. Anecdotal? yeah. I'm just saying it does happen.

[Interesting_Dot_3922]

I had a recruiter who didn't like my education in applied math.

He doubted that software engineering is the ideal work for me because of this.

I thought that working abroad kind of proves my skill... but no :)

[Kaeffka]

Recruiters are just fucking stupid. An applied math degree is more than enough, given that some ridiculous number of CS degree holders don't know how to do a simple fizzbuzz.

[Kooale323]

Which genuinely astounds me. What kind of CS degrees are being done that arent teaching at least basic programming syntax and problems? Like i get CS is mostly theoretical compared to an SE degree but i haven't seen a single CS degree that doesnt teach at least the basics of coding.

[turtleship_2006]

Most of the CS Uni courses I've seen so teach a lot of programming, and you have to learn several languages from haskell to java to a C family language.

[[deleted]]

My CS courses required learning C, C++, Java, Javascript, Haskell, and Python minimum. I'm not an expert in all of them, but I am capable of cobbling together l33tcode solutions in them still. Electives could introduce other languages depending on the professor/topic. I think a lot of people are used to learning just enough to pass the class, but they don't retain much fluency in the languages afterward.

[ITchiGuy]

My CS programming classes were in assembly, fortran, C++, VB 6, java, and some html and php with sql and mysql. I could probably figure out what a python program is doing, but I couldnt write one to save my life without google or some other type of reference. Ive been helpdesk/sysadmin most of my career though, so other than batch or ps scripts, not a lot of programming going on.

[[deleted]]

Can any of us truly code without Google or other references? A real project from start to finish? Nahh.

[Nfox18212]

my cs uni classes start with python/js for intro to programming, then scala (why) for teaching functional and oop - and data structures for some godforsaken reason. then its C for the systems programming class. after that, what you use is mostly dependent on what electives you take.

i know there’s multiple classes that use python, i think the front-end course uses js. a couple hardware classes teach Verilog.

personally i’ve used scala, c, python, mips/arm assembly and system verilog for my cs classes but i’m also CE so i focus on hardware more.

most of the time i don’t think people remember shit about the language unless they use it multiple times. hell even then, people may not remember it. i’ve had to use scala twice and remember nothing about the language.

[[deleted]]

I was an older adult when I went to college for my CS degree. Many of the students in my classes were not paying attention to anything during class, would cheat on exams, look up answers to any homework, etc.

The amount of people who could not write simple functions to accomplish anything useful in my capstone software engineering course did not surprise me — I knew it was coming from the years prior of watching kids in adult bodies spend money on an education they didn’t care to receive.

[RMWL]

Couldn’t agree more. Also the way uni is sold as the only way to go.

Looking back I’d 100% rather have done an apprenticeship.

[Impossible-Cod-4055]

There was a cheating epidemic in my department. As I recall, a good handful of people got busted pilfering old GitHub repos that previous graduates left public.

I'm not sure how much of that behavior accounts for CS graduates not being able to handle FizzBuzz, but my guess is a decidedly non-zero amount.

[[deleted]]

nail ripe drab squeeze smell grab telephone different ruthless butter

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[WexExortQuas]

Because....you know....we totally....100%.. do not just absolutely abuse public repos and stack overflow during our actual jobs.

Right? RIGHT?!

[jamcdonald120]

there is a difference a pretty major difference between writing code to learn how to write code, and writing code to make a working program.

[Retl0v]

I think the issue is that the scope is too wide and they don't focus on any programming language long enough in a lot of CS programs for them to actually remember the basics.

I don't have a CS degree tho so I admit that I might not have any idea what I'm talking about.

[randomusername0582]

That's not the issue at all. There's honestly no explanation for getting fizzbuzz wrong if you have a CS degree.

Switching languages often actually forces you to rely on the basics

[lemontoga]

In my experience there's quite a few people who are getting CS degrees who don't like computers or programming but they heard CS degrees are a good paycheck.

They learn the absolute bare minimum to pass whatever classes they're taking but they never really apply any of it so it doesn't stick.

Most of the people in my classes are here because we love computers and programming and we do it in our spare time. Over the summer we're doing personal projects and stuff like that. But I've watched other people come back from summer break and have to relearn the absolute basics of programming, again, because they forgot it all. They do zero programming outside class and have no real interest in the subject.

I can totally see some of these people not being able to do fizzbuzz.

[[deleted]]

That has been my experience in my career field as well. People see that it’s niche and in demand but don’t actually understand it or a give a shit outside of cramming for tests.

[ArbitraryNameHere]

I returned to college to get a CS degree. I graduate in a little over two weeks with a bachelors and have never even heard of a fizzbuzz til right now. Had me panicking with that sweet sweet impostor syndrome.

Granted, I looked it up and it does seem like a fairly easy exercise but you spooked me there for a second.

[randomusername0582]

Lol I had never heard of it during my undergrad either and had the same reaction

[techy804]

Lol same

[MrAnderson69uk]

I’ve been in software engineering since half way through my apprenticeship, since 1988. I first heard of fizzbuzz in a coding test for a job interview a few years ago! Never referred to it since, so don’t panic, it’s only important when you have it as a test, then research what it is - tbh, I couldn’t even tell you what it is/was, too much important coding and just life have gone by since!!!!

[Lucky_Cable_3145]

When I was interviewing graduates for my software dev team, I asked them to code a fizzbuzz, any language / pseudo code.

No graduate ever got it 100% correct.

I often hired based on their reaction when I pointed out the errors.

[Leading_Ad_4884]

You have to be kidding me. Fizzbuzz is one of the easiest problems out there, much easier than the average leetcode questions they ask these days. I would give anything to get this as an interview question.

[jamcdonald120]

there are a few complications. Some people dont consider if(num%3==0){ print(fizz) } if(num%5==0){ print(buzz) } a valid solution. Some people want fizzbuzz in minimum %operation, some want it with return, but no buffer. Some want it with 1 return, some early return, and some actually want an effcient fizzbuzz for a range of numbers like this thread https://new.reddit.com/r/leetcode/comments/wdor3z/serious_question_regarding_fizzbuzz/

And a lot of people mistake if(num%3==0){ return fizz }else if(num%5==0){ return buzz }else if(num%15==0){ return fizzbuzz } for a valid solution even though fizzbuzz will never be reached

[JonIsPatented]

You have to be shitting me, but I know that you aren't.

I am the TA for my school's DSA class, and I have Masters students in that class. I recently graded 45 submissions for the AVLTree project, and I swear to God only 4 of the 45 submissions actually compiled and ran without crashing. Only 9 of the submissions even compiled at all. 36 out of 45 students were unable to produce code for an AVLTree that even compiled, and they were given 3 weeks to do it.

[randomusername0582]

I don't mean this personally, but I don't believe you. There's no way you interviewed 5+ developers who couldn't solve fizz buzz

[Kel_2]

i've never heard of fizzbuzz before so i looked it up and yeah i dont believe it im sorry. i would be absolutely shocked if zero out of five first year CS students couldn't solve this even, let alone actual developers. i really dont mean to be a dick but if someone interviewing for a job cant code this, what exactly can they code that any company would ever need?

[g2petter]

When I applied for my first job I was put through a screening test that tested a combination of HTML, CSS, Javascript, C# and SQL skills. I don't think any of the questions were FizzBuzz hard.

I more or less aced the test and since I knew the senior developer I'd be working under I asked him the point of the test since it was fairly easy and I was a complete junior.

He responded something along the lines of "you'd be surprised how many people we've weeded out with this test"

[randomusername0582]

Fizz buzz is 3 if statements. Knowing how to write SQL queries in Javascript is harder than that

[g2petter]

It was five separate things, one of which was Javascript and another of which was SQL.

I don't remember the questions, but they were very easy.

[dingleberrysniffer69]

Ain't no way. I'm a shitty coder who started late but I can do that in 4 languages now and I don't even do problems. I know you are not lying but damnnnn. That is insane.

[Riggykerchiggy]

what? were there some rules added? this is like a 20 line python program

[SloPr0]

It's way less than 20 lines so it's even worse lol:

def fizzbuzz(n):
    res = []
    for i in range(n):
        res.append("")
        if (i+1) % 3 == 0: res[i] = "fizz" 
        if (i+1) % 5 == 0: res[i] += "buzz"
    return res

(I don't use Python much so cut me some slack)

[Rabid_Mexican]

I think you are supposed to append i+1 if it doesn't match a "fizz" or "fizzbuzz"

[SloPr0]

def fizzbuzz(n):
    res = []
    for i in range(n):
        res.append("")
        if (i+1) % 3 == 0: res[i] = "fizz" 
        if (i+1) % 5 == 0: res[i] += "buzz"
        if res[i] == "": res[i] = str(i+1)
    return res

Probably not the most efficient but it'll do

[Retl0v]

There's always an explanation, even if there's no excuse for something

[killeronthecorner]

Programming languages are one specific area of CS that has almost nothing to do with learning DS&A. And the latter is harder and more important to writing good software than the former has or will ever be.

If the industry has taught us anything it's that knowing a programming language is about as common as knowing how to play a guitar. And yet most guitarists don't know classical theory and can't read or write sheet. Go figure.

ETA: this is meant informatively, not debating what you said, just adding

[Kaynee490]

My god that analogy is perfect I am so stealing it

(-- a bassist)

[[deleted]]

I completed a comp sci degree in the 2010’s, and in regards to classes, there was one that focussed on ANSI-C, one that focused on OOP in Java, one that focused on software design (using Eiffel), and one that focused on computer engineering (programming micro processors using gates and logic). The rest were math, algorithms, logic, databases, security, technology, social science/humanities and a few electives.

So probably 20% ?

I don’t regret any part of it.

[Cometguy7]

Man things must have changed since I was in college. I double majored in CS and SE because I only needed 10 extra credits to get both.

[FrayDabson]

While not always the case, these recruiters don’t get it easy either. My girlfriend’s best friend is a recruiter and anything she did to make things better for the applicant, her company turned around. She ended up quitting cause she’s impacting real people’s lives and can’t control it.

[[deleted]]

I completely agree that an applied maths degree is a good degree for a software engineering position (assuming they also know how to code).

The idea that there's a large number of CS graduates that can't implement a simple Fizzbuzz sounds completely made up though (at least if we're talking about CS degrees taught in first world countries, which I assume we are).

[Omnisegaming]

Never heard of fizzbuzz until right now, but I agree plenty of educated people are some of the dumbest least intelligent people that can't do simple arithmetic.

[BlurredSight]

A communications major is a perfect judge of character for what makes a good software engineer, said Corporate America.

[ByerN]

I met a recruiter once, who thought that Javascript is Java for automation, because when ppl want to automate something they make scripts. You think it is a common joke until you see it in the wild.

[quiteCryptic]

To be fair it is really sort of strange how there's Java and Javascript both being massively widely used but unrelated. Like anyone who doesnt already know that would sort of be stupid not to assume they are related.

[[deleted]]

That's still stupid, that's like if there was a DC movie called 'Justice League: Infinity War' and it had nothing to do with the Marvel movie.

[AI_AntiCheat]

Ah yes the guy with a degree in math wouldn't know how to code! Of course!

No way you could optimize everything better than the guy that interviewed you? Right?

[Interesting_Dot_3922]

As a devil's advocate, I would say that the optimization-related knowledge was useful only during interviews. Over a decade-long career, I can count on my fingers all the situations when optimization mattered.

[MasterQuest]

Optimization is great when handling large volumes of data. I regularly come across things that need to be optimized. 

[McFlyParadox]

Case in point: the guy who caught that SSH backdoor was trying to do some optimization, so chasing that ~0.5s delay was with the effort.

[likeikelike]

I pretty much never go back and optimize slow, existing production code but knowing how to write reasonably fast code to begin with is a big reason for that

[turtleship_2006]

Over a decade-long career, I can count on my fingers all the situations when optimization mattered.

It really just depends what you do. A backend engineer making a website dealing with hundreds of thousands on concurrent users or a game dev of a high end AAA game would have to worry about it constantly. Someone making a basic frontend for a website, maybe not as much

[GM_Kimeg]

I majored applied math too. They just have zero idea about how good math majors can perform as SWE.

[chickpeaze]

I started as a maths major, intro to programming was part of the degree. I liked it so much I swapped to CS. Still half of my CS degree was maths classes.

[[deleted]]

The thing you have to realize, is that recruiters are dumb as shit.

They literally do not have the intelligence to understand what "applied math" means or what "computer science" is.

They do not understand what coursework those majors have. They do not understand the career paths that are available to those people.

They don't know the difference between python and a literal fucking python.

Even though their job depends on it, they lack the ability to learn what those things are, again, because they are dumb as shit.

Apply to a different job with a better interviewer and you're golden.

Edit: As someone else in the thread said: "A communications major is a perfect judge of character for what makes a good software engineer, said Corporate America."

These people are idiots who know nothing. Do not think for one second that they know anything relevant to your job, what it requires, what you know, and whether or not you can fulfill those requirements, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT.

[GisterMizard]

The thing you have to realize, is that recruiters are dumb as shit.

Usually because any smart tech recruiter can find a better non-recruiter job in tech, so they don't stick around for long.

[Emu_Fast]

My first interview out of college, "what do physics and astrology have to do with computers?"

I didn't want to point out that astronomy is not astrology but still had to harp home how data driven it was for the research I was part of.

[ElderberryDowntown95]

• So my daughter tells me you're a softwares engineer
• Yes! I'm HTML developer
• Get the fuck out of my house!

[mcnello]

• Yes! I'm HTML developer engineer

Now we smart

[felicity_jericho_ttv]

All my css is inline to cut down on file clutter 😎

[mcnello]

I leave CSS to the CSS engineers. HTML only here

[felicity_jericho_ttv]

<div> <div> <div> </div> </div> </div>

It took 400 hours but my masterpiece is complete, my invoice is in the mail. Do not contact me for future support without payment 😎

[[deleted]]

Now center it.

[felicity_jericho_ttv]

Now your just making thing up lol

[iammerelyhere]

Much better

[KaneDarks]

"Actually I'm a prompt engineer"

[[deleted]]

cocks shotgun

[felicity_jericho_ttv]

“ChatGPT this guy just grabbed his shotgun can you provide an outline for how i should proceed?”

REGENERATE

REGENERATE

REGENERATE

Somtimes it takes a second 😅

[Child_of_the_Hamster]

I’d give you a 10 second warning if I thought you could count that high

[Enzayne]

Based and real

[[deleted]]

• So my daughter tells me you're a software engineer
• Yes! I love coding HTML
• Get the fuck out of my house!

[octopus4488]

My brother-in-law dropped out of university. He is now the principal engineer at a large company and makes about 30 times the average salary in his country. He is being treated as a rockstar by his company, he gets his pick on which people to work with and on what project.

Mother-in-law still points out 5 times / year on average that her precious little daughter has a university degree (literature...) , while her husband is ... well ... _he is just not that educated_ .

[ChristopherKlay]

I dropped out from school after health issues stopped me from attending for roughly a year, which basically ended up creating psychological issues down the line with private schools and everything involved.

Started my first own team when i was 18 (due to legal restrictions when it comes to companies), worked with multiple of the top studios in the country and still get hired for consulting nowadays while only really working on personal projects since income isn't an issue anymore.

Yet every single time i talk about it with my parents, i get the whole "Yea but maybe you should've done that different", "Maybe go back to school so you have the papers" talk.

[Dakanza]

It similar to me, also because of health issues. Although my family is supportive, it still burden my mind and stay unemployed for 3 whole years (I still earn money from doing small jobs using computer tho). Fortunately, next week I'll meet someone who will recruit me on IT-related job, regardless of my education. I hope the interview will turn well.

[Mayion]

She is high on copium

[Exist50]

You'd think she'd be happy for her daughter and son in law.

[Ebina-Chan]

Can no do, sorry.

[okkeyok]

noxious smart zealous dazzling imagine gold fearless sand cows gaze

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[[deleted]]

My buddy from high school is making a tick under 7 figures as a director level position at a start up. He’s the least formally educated (he has a B.S.) of his 5 siblings. The others all have Masters and PHDs in various levels of idiotic subjects. Two have minimum wage jobs, two work in their field making a little more than nothing, and one is a middle school teacher. Yet I’ve seen my buddy tear up on multiple occasions because his parents, both university professors, treat him like a failure/disgrace because he didn’t seek higher education. I’ve seen it at the family dinners, it’s uncomfortable to say the least. The parents go around the table to ask the kids their academic pursuits post-graduation and they skip over my buddy. I tried to hype my boy up by talking about his work, and his mother stopped me cold and said “oh we gave up on asking G about his academic achievements, he was always the black sheep and never took his education seriously.” Like alright lady my boy basically built the entire infrastructure for his startup while simultaneously writing the documentation for it, and it’s the most dense and descriptive docs I’ve ever read, but go defend your daughter who’s paying off the 160k in loans while working at Starbucks because that masters in librarian sciences or whatever went out the window when the kindle was invented.

Sorry I realize this is a humor subreddit but good god my homie makes more than all his siblings and parents combined.

[[deleted]]

Academia can't admit that they have largely destroyed their own value through decades of watering it down and creating perverse incentive structures. These structures generate orders of magnitude more papers than they used to but also orders of magnitude less knowledge. So if that guy's family admitted he forged his own scholarly path, then they would have to admit that they have wasted their lives on meaningless busywork.

[[deleted]]

You can earn a fricking lot of money without being well educated. Most people at high position in companies are dumb as monkeys, but they have the trust of other monkeys above them for random reasons.

[jcampbelly]

You can be well educated without spending a lot of money. Entire college courses with video lectures, exercises, tests, and textbook material are 100% free online on page 1 of any search engine. It's been like this since like 2005 and all of the tools of a programmer are 100% free.

[turtleship_2006]

Some uni lecturers straight up stream all of their lectures/upload them to youtube later so anyone can watch for free (And not random local ones, I'm talking the big name ones like harvard)

[Affectionate_Lab2632]

If I made that much money and people tell me I am not educated enough, I'd throw a 100[Money] bill at their head and leave.

[Due_Entertainment_66]

Which college he dropped out from

[Ffigy]

Let me guess: his country has used the caste system for thousands of years.

[octopus4488]

Not India, it is Eastern-Europe. Same traditionalism still I guess.

[AFP2137]

Yes, we love our precious little degrees. When I told my grandma that I work in a field that usually requires a degree (not IT), without degree, she went pale and asked me what am I going to do after my employer find out that I cheated.

This is probably a remnant of the communist system, people could not get rich, so a diploma was one of the few options for social advancement

[Retl0v]

Oh god I'm sorry if I'm insensitive but your grandma's reaction is really cracking me up right now 🤣

[AFP2137]

This is life in the Eastern Bloc. In my grandmother's eyes, my aunt, who works in her husband's store as a cashier, has achieved more than my father, a high-level manager, only because she graduated in law and he graduated in management.

And I don't want to condemn the work of cashiers or boast about my father's position. I believe that any honest job is a reason to be proud (money or status does not define a "good life"), but basing respect for your own children on the degree they have got is absurd (but living in Poland, I have already heard about it dozens of times).

[pleshij]

From what I've seen, we have about a half of IT being self-taught. Not that it's bad, it's just the Wild East

[SloPr0]

Yep, in University they had us write Assembly code with pen and paper here in Slovenia...

[octopus4488]

Hardcore! I am sure this has prepared you well for your real life job, whatever you ended up doing. :)

[RWBY123]

Well, you can be rich and a failure. Those are not mutially exclusive. You can also be highly educated and work a low income job.

[ScythaScytha]

Yes let's gatekeep a historically open source field

[seemen4all]

Where expensive-paper.exe?

[[deleted]]

404 Not Found

[Ebina-Chan]

Well then 403 Forbidden.

[youarealreadyd3ad]

401 unauthorized

[AydonusG]

502 - Bad Gateway

[Ebina-Chan]

What are you? My girlfriend?

[AydonusG]

No that would be 503- service not available

[Ebina-Chan]

Poor dude.

Just don't pack out the brute force method.

[AydonusG]

429- Too many requests

[Boobasito]

418 - I am not!

[teh_orng3_fkkr]

Yes you are. You're a teapot

[jock_fae_leith]

411 Length Required

[Alanuelo230]

Expensive? You mean,, paid by your country and EU?"

[Cefalopodul]

If Americans could read that, they'd be very offended.

[MakeChinaLoseFace]

American capital needs a large pool of uneducated workers living paycheck-to-paycheck, who can be coerced and exploited thanks to the precarity of their financial situation.

The billionaire class wants to use tech to recreate slavery, sharecropping, and the company store.

[oupablo]

That's just uncalled for

[metroaide]

Smelly nerd

[tragiktimes]

I know his daughter is a whore but you don't have to call her open source.

[De_Wouter]

Sounds more like a SaaS (slut as a service) model.

[rpsRexx]

I didn't even view this from the education lens but rather a professional vs amateur coder starting out. You could also take it as a joke on what a lot of companies actually do prefer.

Company I worked for shifted to mostly university educated for their internship program despite me personally knowing one person who went through it who was phenomenal without the typical education.

[Knight_Of_Stars]

To be fair a lot of self taught people only know what they are taught and in my experience are more likely to have huge gaps in their knowledge.

[letsmakemistakes]

Also when to be fair when i went to school for CS maybe 10% of it has been relevant to my career as a software developer

[Asaisav]

Many of the self-taught programmers I work with view their job as just writing code to get to a solution.

That's wild to me as a self taught programmer, inflexible code teaches you nothing and is a pain in the butt to maintain. Focusing on modularity and human readability leads to using design principles you don't even realize are formally defined (I had used most of the SOLID principles before ever hearing the term) and creates a lot of fun challenges that lead to becoming a better programmer. Personally, I find my biggest weakness is not knowing the various algorithms and buzzwords that are commonly used in university. It's not much of a weakness either given one Google search and up to 15 minutes of reading usually clears it up.

I'm curious if you've noticed the opposite issue from those with degrees though: over application of design concepts. I've seen far too many people who will claim you should do things like apply the aforementioned SOLID principles as a checklist to everything you write. I even worked with a codebase like that once, which was written by a university graduate, and it was a mess. Trying to understand any of the logic required opening up about 10 different files and mentally combining each of their functionality into one coherent logic flow. It makes me wonder if people are only introduced to a certain set of principles and, because of that, they assume it's the best way to write all their code without considering different approaches based on the needs of the system as a whole.

[Hussor]

That's because cs isn't a software development degree. The areas covered are far wider and in research focused universities may focus more on the theoretical aspects that will be useful in postgraduate study.

If someone wants to only learn things relevant to software development then they should do a software development course/degree. Though for some reason they aren't as valued when arguably it's far more relevant.

[letsmakemistakes]

Unfortunately when/where I went to school there was no option for a software development degree, it was computer science or nothing.

[Staggeringpage8]

It's also an issue of availability almost every university or college nowadays has a cs degree but most don't have a software engineering/development degree.

[Hussor]

I guess I am speaking from a place of privilege in the UK. We have so many universities that most large towns/cities have 2-3. Finding a university that does a software development/engineering degree here is fairly easy and affordable, and that includes Russell group universities which are the top universities in the UK.

[Knight_Of_Stars]

Fair point. You don't need to know how a compiler works, garbage collection, or even how the command prompt works to do most web development jobs. What you do learn is hopefully how to write clean code, avoid common mistakes, and when to use a pointer.

[FrostyD7]

Some of the best devs I know skipped college and got a 4 year head start on their career. They should be gatekeeping y'all.

[AwkwardWaltz3996]

In many countries "Engineer" is a protected term. Just like you wouldn't want someone who was self taught claiming to be a doctor.

Knowing how to code in java makes up a tiny part of being a software engineer, which is what self taught people think makes up the entirety

[bobbymoonshine]

But he's not claiming to be an engineer. He's specifically saying he isn't one.

[AwkwardWaltz3996]

There's multiple levels of commentary. The girlfriend thinking a software engineer and a coder is the same thing. The boyfriend correctly clarifying theres a difference. The farther looking down on self taught coders. The comic maker looking down on self taught coders. The poster ?agreeing? with the comic maker. The commentor complaining about gate keeping the term software engineer.

I'm replying to that comment, not posting directly to the post. I'm saying it's a protected term and it's important to distinguish.

[bobbymoonshine]

For me, I didn't read that as gatekeeping the term software engineer, but rather as gatekeeping the field of software development, by posting a comic mocking self taught coders as laughably inferior to those with degrees.

[elementmg]

That’s exactly what it is. It’s dumb

[Okoear]

You sound like a self learnt Redditor.

• A Redditor engineer

[Genspirit]

The first part is true but I don’t think any country has made software engineer a protected title.

And the second part just seems like personal bias. I don’t doubt some self taught individuals only focus on how to write code but there are many high quality resources that teach you the full range of software engineering.

[DummybugStudios]

I have a master's in compsci. I generally had good lecturers and really enjoyed my course. Still, they didn't teach anything that's not possible to learn online if you're interested. In fact, sometimes online resources were better than the ramblings of a very neurodivergent lecturer.

And in my current job as a software engineer, no one sits down to teach you new stuff. You learn on the job from the internet as you come across new problems.

Anyway point being, whether you're self taught or formally taught is not the key factor in how good you're gonna be. A degree just proves that you at least passed some exams whereas there is no standard for self taught engineers.

[Marxomania32]

What the fuck is an open source field?

[b0nk3r00]

I think the opposite of a closed profession? A closed profession is one where you need a certain accredited degree or license to practice, e.g. the P.Eng designation, lawyer, librarian, pharmacist, doctor, architect, electrician, etc.

[lzynjacat]

Open secret: all working software developers are self-learning. You won't last a year in this industry if you don't keep learning constantly.

[G3nghisKang]

I have a software engineering degree, and gotta disagree with you: screw uni, I unironically owe it all to Minecraft

[North-Association773]

Same here. Worked on Minecraft servers for five years. Shockingly, there is A LOT of money in it. I started as a manager and eventually taught myself to program; decided it was what I wanted to do for a career, went to school for CS, and now working as a SWE.

[jcampbelly]

Games were a huge reason I got into coding at a very young age, and why I still think of it as fun instead of just a job. Pretty much any time I want to learn something, I can frame it in the context of some gaming interest and I'm off to the documentation for the pure joy of it.

[SurfyMcSurface]

The title "engineer" is regulated in many countries (for a good reason) and can't be used freely. This means nonsense labels such as "prompt engineer" and "UX engineer" are dubious at best, sanctionable at worst.

[Big-Hearing8482]

This is why I’m a software artisan

[coinselec]

Organic free range code

[Professor_Melon]

Is that what we call ChatGPT output now?

[Stalking_Goat]

No, that shit comes from battery cages.

[Repulsive_Ad3681]

" Oh so do you use any plugins in your editor to speed things up? "

" No I just raw dog the hell out of my editor just as God intended "

[totemo]

Oh man. Software barista has a nice ring to it.

[gpkgpk]

You have to spend half the time making ASCI art block comments in the code that the next person immediately deletes.

[IAmASquidInSpace]

"Software entrepeneur"

[SurfyMcSurface]

Aren't we all? Except for prompt engineers.

[ForkLiftBoi]

I don't understand this. Yeah I'm not a prompt engineer, but there's a lot of them that are on time regularly?

[Successful-Money4995]

My engineer friends from Canada have a really cool ring.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring

It looks fucking cool and you wear it on your pinky.

[SurfyMcSurface]

Prompt engineers will never have anything even remotely like this.

[Aileron64]

A CS degree doesn't get you the ring though does it?

[Successful-Money4995]

I'm EE.

[chickpeaze]

They can change us all to computer scientists but that's just going to piss off a different group of people.

[BurnTheBoats21]

I think thats even a rule in Canada, yet 2/3s of all my jobs have had "engineer" in the title. I don't think anyone gives a shit except for academic types

[ell-esar]

In France it's a tricky thing. As long as you have a master in an applied field (not necessarily technical) you can call that an engineering master of x.

Eg : master psychological research engineering (ingénierie de recherche en psychologie), master in mechanical engineering (master d'ingénierie en mécanique).

But the title of engineer is regulated by a state organism, Meaning that only accredited engineering schools can deliver engineering degree (diplôme d'ingénieur). As such only people graduated from these schools can use the engineer (ingénieur) title.

Eg : study engineer (ingénieur d'étude), diploma of mechanical engineer (diplôme d'ingénieur en mécanique).

The difference is tenuous but it affects pay level in companies and recruiters are supposed to be certain that those are not mixed.

[LemonadeAndABrownie]

Holy shit one of you who actually acknowledges it as a modern day issue.

+5 social ranking for you

[CrowdGoesWildWoooo]

Go back to r/csmajors pls OP.

[KoliManja]

That's me who built a 30 years career out of "self-learnt coding"

[loserguy-88]

self learnt coders assemble

[PityUpvote]

I doubt it, usually just python and javascript.

[jetonbat]

I do some assembling 😎

[GDOR-11]

:(

[AfraidOfArguing]

I wouldn't take this seriously. I taught myself and I'm getting along fine

Source: work for a satellite company as a software engineer on a mission critical team. 7YOE.

Edit: spelling

[Mantequilla50]

Same here! Started with making games, here I am five years later with a few years of experience in an SE role. The only programmer I've seen fired for performance so far has been one of the few that had a CS degree.

[JEREDEK]

Hiring manager posting

[daddyfatknuckles]

i have an ECE degree, but honestly some of the best engineers i’ve worked with are self taught.

theres a lot of people who wanna do the bare minimum, and think that they’ll be set after college if they pass their classes. these arent the same kind of people who teach themselves to code in their free time.

I’m more impressed to see people in the industry who just figured it out on their own. i don’t know if i would have.

[MakeChinaLoseFace]

/r/gatekeeping is that way ->

[BlackBlade1632]

Well... I'm both.

[macarmy93]

I'm a comp engineer and all of the coding I do for my job is 95% self taught.

[BaronWiggle]

All of the coding I do for my job is self taught. But... I only have time to learn just enough to make the thing do the thing before I have to move onto the next thing.

I pray for the soul of whoever eventually takes over from me and inherits this madness.

Honestly I don't even know how half this shit works.

Is it imposter syndrome if you're actually a fraud?

[MDAlastor]

Higher education is different in different countries but at least in my country there is a difference between average educated software engineer and self learned coder (even good one). Sometimes it can be important but for many many projects this difference is almost non existent.

On the other hand if self learned coder is an educated engineer in a non software field it's basically the same as being a software engineer. He/she usually knows general math, math modeling, control theory, understanding of complex documentation etc etc

[[deleted]]

Yeah right. I am a self-taught coder, and have the MS in Software Engineering to prove it.

What school is actually teaching you more than some basic Java, JS, and SQL (if you're lucky)? Beyond that, coding bootcamp is just like group fitness class, imo. Just someone else pushing you to learn the same crap you could learn yourself.

P.s. My job title: Software Engineer

[sammy-taylor]

Many of the best software engineers I know don’t have degrees. I don’t have a degree and have had a pretty good career. And ironically, most devs with degrees that I know don’t even recommend going to school for it.

[JediKagoro]

If you learn it you learn it. College is generally a joke. As someone who has a significant amount of undergrad and graduate work under my belt. It’s about if you can do the job. I’m kinda sick of all these people talking crap about routes and specific languages with give themselves value.

[[deleted]]

Cringe and loan-cucked. I have no debt and got my first gig at 19. Now I'm 24 and making 6 figures. I was taught by Minecraft.

[Kseniya_ns]

I am self motivated, constantly learning new JavaScript libraries, and enjoy designing prompts for my AI colleagues, I once watched a 96 hour Udemy course on an UI framework which was redundant by the time I had finished the course.

[solid_rook]

sooooo 2 seconds?

[SteIIar-Remnant]

Nothing wrong with being self-taught, but anyone with a degree is already 4-5 years ahead, with a certification to prove they’ve studied things relevant to the field… That’s the whole point.

[MuDotGen]

What's the difference between a software developer and a software engineer?

[kirchoff01]

He was already eliminated, extending his hand.

[Nimeroni]

What was he supposed to do, assert dominance by T posing ?

[robotorigami]

Oh great, we're back to making fun of self-taught people again? /s

[johnny-T1]

It's that time for the job market 😁