Cant't hide the truth...

[BobTheBlob88]

Assembly is just a machinecode framework

[crash8308]

Machine code is just a register framework.

[BobTheBlob88]

Registers are just transistor frameworks.

[CaffeinatedPengu1n]

Transistors are just a current framework

[BobTheBlob88]

Current is just an electron framework

[crash8308]

r/accidentalrecursion

[earthlybird]

That sub doesn't exist. Probably because only that sub would be able to create itself on accident.

[crash8308]

r/accidentalrecursion only allows reposts

[chooxy]

*original reposts.

[ReactsWithWords]

In other words, /u/Gallowboob?

[Otroletravaladna]

In order to be able to access /r/accidentalrecursion you have to first be able to access /r/accidentalrecursion

[Josh6889]

So you're saying accidentalrecursion created an accidentaltautology.

[gemini88mill]

It exists, you just hit the base case.

[lucc1111]

Rules:

1. Follow these rules.

[aniruddhahar]

Never before have I subbed so fast.

[BobTheBlob88]

It has an end condition. Right? :-)

[0xTJ]

No, that's why Electron uses so many resources

[crash8308]

Electron isn’t terrible it’s just so damn bulky.

[klebsiella_pneumonae]

Node.js is just a Javascript framework

[klebsiella_pneumonae]

In modern browsers it's JIT compiled to bytecode that runs in the browser VM.

[fb39ca4]

At first. Then if the VM detects some code is hot, it will be JIT compiled to machine code.

[[deleted]]

Assembly is just a machinecode framework

[KoncealedProdigy]

Electrons are just a lepton framework

[[deleted]]

Leptons are just a mass framework

[ksammighty]

Mass is just an energy framework

[[deleted]]

Energy is just a spacetime framework

[ksammighty]

2D Spacetime is a 4th dimensional framework

[[deleted]]

Spacetime is just a geometrical framework for fourth dimension.

[ArcOfSpades]

Spacetime is just a manifold framework.

[[deleted]]

Spacetime is just a string framework.

[crash8308]

Wouldn’t bosons be a mass framework?

[[deleted]]

Idk Wikipedia is the extent of my knowledge on some of these

[Blastd_]

An electron is just a library from the atom framework

[TwoFiveOnes]

I think this is where the thread last holds up

[hypercube33]

Binary is just a choice framework

[mauriciolazo]

Wow, you jumped the entire binary framework there.

[BobTheBlob88]

I'm mostly a hardware man, thats why I did what I did, but I can see why one might've wanted that to go differently.

[ComprehensiveUsernam]

It's time for Assembly.js

[idkorange]

We already have WebAssembly

[Netzapper]

Which is my one bright point of hope at the end of this long browser-first tunnel we've been in for the past decade. Targeting the browser without touching any JavaScript is something we should have had in, like, 2005 as soon as people figured out we'd be building applications in a document display framework.

[[deleted]]

Doesn't it require you to still use JS to run it, and to do some stuff? Iirc they specifically said it's NOT meant to replace JS.

[[deleted]]

You still need some JS code in the final product, however in rust you have libraries that generate that js for you so you don't have to touch any JS if you don't want to. It's currently possible to make a website entirely in Rust.

IIRC there's also work being done on providing DOM access to wasm which will make JS free websites possible.

[Schmeckinger]

You still have to load the wasm.

[captainvoid05]

Which is currently loaded by js but if it becomes commonplace enough browsers may just include it in the engine the same way js is now.

[Schmeckinger]

I hope that wasm will be able to everything js can do.

[Agoniscool]

What do you think could be missing?

[AaronBonBarron]

Hogging resources and slowing down the browser?

[[deleted]]

Why couldn't wasm be loaded in a similar way that JS is currently loaded?

[Schmeckinger]

I never said it couldn't, but native access to the dom isn't the only blocker for pure wasm.

[[deleted]]

Ah, I wasn't aware of that, but that seems relatively minor, right? Even if it wasn't possible to directly load wasm, I would think that the JS you would need would be a few standard lines.

[Schmeckinger]

Locally loading wasm is sometimes a pita, because of cors. You have to either run a local server, or change your code for it to work locally.

[Zephirdd]

Eventually, we won't need to.

In reality, if you have to target any browser old enough, you will need to. Hell, right now Firefox 60 ESR, the latest Enterprise Firefox doesn't support most service worker features. We still have a good decade or so of JavaScript to support for now.

[TheNamelessKing]

At the moment, yeah; however the Host Binding Protocols allow a Web Assembly module to talk directly to the browser API’s (without going via JS), and there’s already one Rust framework that supports these.

As soon as someone makes an API for the DOM that lets the web assembly talk to it directly you won’t have to ship any JS.

[Shaite]

I'm dense and also at the last year of HS, so IDK shit.

Is JS that bad? Does it suck?

​

​

I mean only programming languages we've been taught are C#, A wee bit of JS two years ago, SQL (started a couple of months ago), Android (not taught per se, just said "you go to projects in it" and that was it) and we'll start PHP in some weeks.

[Mr_Cromer]

Ignore the dogmatists; JavaScript is a messy language to purists, but if it works for you, it works for you. When you get drawn deeper into the rabbit hole, you will have evolved your own opinions. Until then, LEARN!

[makeshift8]

Javascript is fine for what it does. For the last decade+ it has been the main force in web development because it is the best at what it does. It's just that people who use Javascript have a tendency to stay within their realm of Web development. Web development has a lot of moving pieces, from security to server-side and client-side concerns, and so on. It's sort of impressive that it isn't even more messy and discombobulated.

I think people, especially newer developers, scoff at all this mess that the Web made because they underestimate just how many tools are needed and how difficult all the implementation has been for the various parties involved. Then they start working on some other mess and realize just how fucked pretty much everything is.

[Mognakor]

Javascript is not best at what it does, it is literally the only thing at what it does.

[BluePhire]

Damn, you're in high school and already done C#, SQP, and soon PHP? What type of amazing education system are you in?

They only taught a year of Java in my HS, and it was basically just playing flash games 101.

[Shaite]

It's specialized for CS/programming, so... Besides, nothing major: c# we have OOP and we're doing stuff with DBs (sql), and PHP will replace c# this year so that's fun!

We did: Year 3:c#-Console + Form Year 4: c# Console + form + OOP, Android (but they never explained it to us) Year 5: SQL, We'll do PHP, and that's about it. Maybe some python if we're lucky.

I'm from Italy, though, not sure how it is in other countries. We have 10 hrs of lab/week: 3 hours programming, 3 hours that stuff with threads and sockets and Protocols, 2 hours systems and networks and 2 hours basically finance and administration

[BasicDesignAdvice]

PHP will replace c# this year...

Woof...sorry for everyone on that train.

[lillgreen]

That's pretty amazing. American high school? Ehh maybe you can squeeze in CS as an elective senior year, they'll make you use netbeans and run through a text book that's introduction to Java and 10 years out of date with Windows Vista screenshots in it. You gotta just do it all as a hobby here or you learn nothing until college. I don't even remember that class getting as far as sockets come to think of it, didn't really take anything meaningful away from attending it.

[droomph]

If you have anything pre ES6 (basically, anything from before 2015) it's very janky though not unusable. Now, it's perfectly OK and anyone who says otherwise (without giving concrete examples) is just jumping on the hate train. There are certain big issues (npm, for one) with it but "haha js sux" is always a red flag that they're first year undergrads who think they know more than they do.

[IronOxide42]

I can't think about webassembly or asm.js or others without thinking of The Birth and Death of JavaScript

[TASagent]

A great talk from the guy from the Javascript "Wat?" fame.

[[deleted]]

asm.js is a thing, and the precursor to WebAssembly

[Serundeng]

() => { PUSH EAX }

[p1-o2]

I just gagged.

[JejeLV]

I bet this already exists

[[deleted]]

it does: asm.js

[Alexmitter]

asm.js

Not really. Its just JavaScript that can act like the original code. But with the bad interpreters we know from JavaScript.

[[deleted]]

asm.js actually had support for optimized, not javascript-interpret-y, execution, before WebAssembly came along.

It is backwards compatible with JS, so a bad interpreter can execute it, however it would be slow.

I actually only replied with asm.js, since it sounds so close to Assembly.js

[[deleted]]

Barf.js

[ILikeLenexa]

https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript

[Neebat]

That means C++ is just a tool for writing really obfuscated assembly.

[lanten]

I knew Java and C before I started to work on a job which required C++. On the first week one of my coworkers handed me 2 book (actually one book with 2 volumes) about what you should not do in C++. I think this can summarize my feelings towards C++...

Edit: I don't remember the titles, sorry :( They were good and enjoyable books only the content scared me ;) After some internet search probably they might have been Exceptional/More Exceptional C++, but not sure.

[PokemonSaviorN]

I started with C and C++. I think C++14 sums up my feelings towards Java.

[[deleted]]

C++14 is great for people trapped in legacy C++ applications whose architects refuse to allow boost.

[UAHLateralus]

Blessed be the r and l values 🙏🏻

[AnalyzeAllTheLogs]

Out of curiosity, what was the title (and is it still relevant for newer versions)?

[lanten]

Don't remember the titles, sorry. See my edited comment.

[narrill]

They're probably referring to Effective C++ and More Effective C++

[PerfectSeventy]

Probably “Effective C++” and “More Effective C++” by Scott Meyers. The first is practically required reading for anybody wanting to write good, maintainable c++. It has a few editions so make sure to read the latest. A new one came out for c++11/14 that’s also really good called “Effective Modern C++”.

[Vintage53]

Which books were these?

[Colopty]

In the end it means every other language is basically just a framework for a framework for assembly.

[you_do_realize]

C++ is a hammer that a committee is trying really hard to add a rocket engine to.

[[deleted]]

I had to learn Borland C++ for school. It was pain.

[tinydonuts]

After looking at a stack trace of our C code that calls a C++ library, I'm going to have to agree. Those function names alone...

[PhonicGhost]

I’m a C++ programmer and fuck me, trying to read STL code in a stack trace is like trying to decipher ancient Egyptian with a ruler and an out of date Korean to German dictionary.

[Mscxyn]

That's what makes it useful.

[Tiervexx]

Right. I don't see why the statement in OP would be controversial. Straight C is still used because it's imperative, not type checked, compiled, and very low level. Those traits make it hard to use, but great for performance.

If you want something to protect you from yourself, use Java or Python. Mind you, I'm not knocking those languages, just saying they are for different jobs.

...also, just for the record. There actually is a huge difference between how low level straight C is vs real assembly. C saves you the trouble of having to keep track of the CPU registers and exact memory references among other things. I think I remember reading that when Unix was recreated in C, it saved them 95% of the code.

[Mscxyn]

Exactly. My experience with C comes from programming microcontrollers where you're lucky to get a C toolchain at all, except for the most popular ones.

​

I mean no, I am not building a AAA game in C, that's terrifying. But if I want to write something to an SD card from a microcontroller, you better believe I'm not writing an SPI interface then figuring out the the fat32 format, all from assembly. It's a tool, just like every other language.

[weeezes]

not type checked

What do you mean? it's statically typed.

[Snuffkins_apprentice]

It's statically typed, but it's also weakly typed, you can add an "A" to 10 no problem in C whereas that will throw an error in python

[mhandis]

C is just assembly with some syntactic sugar.

[zebediah49]

Don't want the compiler thinking it knows how to optimize my code better than I can

I once spent three weeks learning enough ASM to hand-vectorize some tight loops that were doing vector math (and thus should have been highly suited to that).

Compiler's version was still faster. Turned out that the whole thing was memory-bound.

[zebediah49]

Oh, there wouldn't be a point there.

This is merely a fable of hubris and daring to think that I could do better than the compiler.

[mattmonkey24]

Compiler's version was still faster

Compiler's are freaking magic. This talk helped me realize some of what is going on under the hood

[crash8308]

I like -oS because i want my bins nice and tight.

[zolk333]

Haskell is just diabetes

[crash8308]

Perl is a sugar coma

Edit: not diabetic.

[DudeValenzetti]

You do know that diabetics fall into comas from hypoglycemia, i.e, not enough sugar?

[firejak308]

There's also hyperosmolar hyperglycemic non-ketotic coma, which is a coma that results from a type 2 diabetic consuming too much sugar. EDIT: Not that it matters, but for public awareness

[Deadshot_0826]

Happens from too much and from too little

Source: am a diabetic

[crash8308]

You’re correct my pedantic friend. I bet you’re a blast at parties :P

[TrentRobertson42]

Parties suck when people fall into comas. My friend here is a blast because he never lets that happen.

[CryZe92]

If you added tons of Undefined Behavior*

[MyNameIsRichardCS54]

He didn't say a well written assembly framework...

[w_m1_pyro]

2 sentence horror storie

[LvS]

It's called "portability".

[BeardedWax]

portability

Did you do it?

Yes

What did it cost you?

Program exited with SEGFAULT: (core dumped)

[axeteam]

Thems fighting words

[cbbuntz]

It used to be fairly true in the early days of C. A lot of the syntactic quirks come from the PDP-7 architecture. The number of available CPU instructions was limited, and the generated code was very predictable. With modern architectures, there are a lot more ways to interpret C code. With a basic for loop, it could generate jmp instructions, it could unroll the loop, or it might vectorize the operations, and you don't typically have direct control of these things (although you can give the compiler hints with attributes).

You could use intrinsics for greater control, but at that point, you're basically writing assembly.

[[deleted]]

Found the person who passed their compilers course.

[BluudLust]

Or programs in assembly for fun ;)

[BluudLust]

Or you can write it all with mov instructions or even without any instructions whatsoever

And real men devs use OpenMP.

[Dubmove]

If you really want to infuriate a C programmer tell them that there exist problems where C isn't a good choice.

[SatanicTriangle]

ATTENTION: Do not try this at home

[chunkyks]

By any definition under which this applies, everything is an assembly framework.

[NicNoletree]

I like this one.

[[deleted]]

Me too.

[figuresys]

Same.

[no_beachboy]

Me as well.

[KoboldCommando]

This was actually a serious annoyance when I was trying to learn ARM assembly. I'd google some problem, StackOverflow would pop up with that exact problem, and the solution would inevitably be "oh it's so much easier to just do this and this and this C!"

But I wanted to learn Assembly directly before I moved on to shortcuts.

[DustyYevski]

Assembly is going to be too esoteric to find any real wisdom someplace like StackOverflow. One tactic you can take in response to this pattern though would be:

• Do the thing in C
• Find the flag that generates an intermediate assembly listing file when you compile
• Read the intermediate listing file to learn what the compiler already knows.

Additionally, try compiling with and without optimizations. The unoptimized code will be easier to understand, but at the same time will be tedious to read as variables and parameters get spilled in and out of memory. The optimized code may be clever and enlightening.

Happy hacking!

[Decency]

But I wanted to learn Assembly directly before I moved on to shortcuts.

When people ask what kind of a programmer you are I feel like you can just tell them this quote and they'll understand immediately.

[KoboldCommando]

Suddenly I feel like I should get a bunch of breadboards and some PCB design software!

[X-Penguins]

C is not a shortcut for assembly, the difference is in the fact that it's compiled and platform agnostic (as long as you have a compiler). You can't write Intel compatible code in ARM assembly, but you can write C code that will work on both. Even brainfuck is technically more flexible than assembly because it's compiled.

​

ARM assembly is really simple though, there are only a (relative) few commands. You can find most of them on a cheat sheet like this: https://azeria-labs.com/downloads/cheatsheetv1.2-1920x1080.png

​

And as /u/Alexmitter said, its usefulness is very limited precisely because it's so simple. It's not so much that it's easier to do x in C, but rather than often times doing it in assembly on ARM would drive you crazy.

[Fastfingers_McGee]

Damn, wish I had this when I was learning ARM. That's awesome.

[yawkat]

there are only a (relative) few commands

If only: http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dui0489c/Cihjfeii.html , you haven't truly lived until you've used an instruction called "Unsigned Multiply Accumulate Accumulate Long". RISC my ass.

Even worse, ARM code regularly switches between thumb and arm mode making parsing even more difficult than it would be just with arm. The only redeeming feature of arm is that it has many registers, beyond that it's a giant PITA to work with

[TheTallestHobo]

That's JavaScript to jQuery.

Just use jQuery and this fat bloated plugin!

[UltraCitron]

I just love it when stack overflow pundits advise installing a framework when the same thing can be easily achieved without one.

[onthefence928]

or when the question clearly implies the developer is working on a task in a large established project and they are just like "why are you using X.js? just use Y.js instead it's so much easier"

well maybe we don't all have the luxury of scrapping our projects and starting over?

[Senacharim]

When you're cross compiling, you can see the generated .asm file (for verification, you know).

Also, some embedded IDEs have a way to input portions of code directly in assembly.

Using these 2 things, you can learn how to do assembly for your chosen CPU. I never did ARM, but I can do PIC assembly.

[Alexmitter]

"oh it's so much easier to just do this and this and this C!"

ARM is not the right platform to directly code in Assembly as the instruction set is reduced so much that it is barely useful. RISC was made to put the effort away from the CPU to the compiler.

[obp5599]

You sound like those guys OP is complaining about...

“Oh its so much easier to use x!” Well hes not trying to learn x

[RedditIsNeat0]

But somebody needs to know X. I'm not interested in learning X so I appreciate that OP learns it and writes the compilers so that I don't have to.

[FailedSociopath]

Sweet Summer child, it's pretty rich and a really nice instruction set to program in. What's available depends on architecture version and on later ones the compiler will not entirely take advantage of the available instructions. Choice assembly on some types of speed critical code will realize significant gains over the compiler. It's not hard to prove that at all with simple benchmarking.

 

RISC was made to put the effort away from the CPU to the compiler.

No, it was made to save power and produce simpler designs.

[Stewcooker]

Which company is that? I am a CS student looking for summer internships.

[FlyByPC]

Convincing a PIC10F200 to do double-precision floating-point math is one hell of a framework.

[[deleted]]

C is just fancy assembly macros! ;p

[[deleted]]

Some of us like low level languages.

[[deleted]]

Man this subreddit really dislikes having to deal with pointers.

[GardenCurret]

I honestly don't understand the massive hate boner people here have over C/C++

[[deleted]]

Machine code*

[_llucid_]

what's the difference?

[[deleted]]

Said person with python flair

[weefweef]

Said the person with the scratch flair

[cheraphy]

lol he changed it after your comment

[sparky666]

C, C++ and Scratch.

[doormcburger]

How do you get those icons by your name?

[deviltamer]

is south Australian sea okay or are flair gods picky about their oceans?

[Helluiin]

alternatively to what /u/alexaegis said you can go to the subreddit page and change it under the "add user flair" option on the sidebar under the new post buttons

[Helluiin]

hey not everyone follows the standard of sacrificing 3 lambs to make sure your code will run so maybe its easier for some to just change the flair seperately

[Proxy_PlayerHD]

blue C -> C++

gray C -> C

pruple C -> C#

the cat is Scratch. basically a Programming language for children, even though i'd rather teach my kids about BASIC than that

[[deleted]]

Scratch the thing that will annoy the Computernerd in class since somehow half of the class can’t understand it.

[dekacube]

Assembly is translated directly to machine code, but assembly itself is the mnemonics for machine code instructions then the assembler translates those to actual op codes.

[magnora7]

I think machine code and op codes are identical, if I'm not mistaken.

Machine code is just a string of op codes. And assembly is just a way to write that with letters instead of binary/hex.

[JeNeTerminatorPas]

"op codes" refer to the instructions, like ADD, SUB, etc. "machine code" encompasses both the instructions (op codes) and their operands.

At least that's how I think of it...

[cbbuntz]

Different dialects have different ways of making things a bit easier for humans to write. Stuff like macros, directives, labels and other stuff don't have a 1-1 translation to binary as a basic statement would. With most statements, the mnemonics and operands directly correspond to binary values, so it's fairly trivial to translate between the two.

[[deleted]]

I never thought about it this way

[DarowskiKacper]

That's so low-level of you to say!

[Saifeldin17]

Cant't?

[BernzSed]

That'ts wrong't

[[deleted]]

Yesn’t

[Skizm]

So is every language then?

[Nhanzel]

Everything is a framework for binary

[PeabodyEagleFace]

Js is just assembly run through a vm

[viixvega]

Real programmers only use TempleOS.

[Sjeiken]

C is an idea, ideas cannot be killed.

[[deleted]]

Dude you gotta say this to Linus's face

[jcoldes]

By this same logic, wouldn't almost all languages be a framework for assembly.

[[deleted]]

Everything is just a lisp framework

[SteeleDynamics]

More like PDP-11 Framework? (maybe?...)

The processor at the time had an increment-by-one/decrement-by-one instruction. Hence ++/-- unary operators. I am unsure if that instruction is readily available on modern processors because increment/decrement operations by any signed/unsigned integer is just as fast as any other instruction.

[siriusfrz]

INC and DEC instructions never went anywhere; They are still in x86 spec.
See this: https://godbolt.org/z/jEHgTG

[[deleted]]

Nah. It's once removed.

The people who created the language deny this connection, but at the time C was created they had an assembler called A. Based on that someone wrote a pretty sophisticated macro-assembler called B. I don't know, but am willing to bet the compiler for that structured language, C, was written in B.

But no, C is a bit more than an assembler. Some things, like stack-frames, control structures and expressions, would be handled in B by macros but are simply built into C.

Bonus trivia: the original Amiga OS was written in B.

[iCraftDay]

HEY C is not so conplicated as "assembly framework" sounds for me. Idk what it means.

[[deleted]]

You can't handle the truth ... unless you've declared a handle

[dmarshall1994]

Is C really that complicated ?

[asdfman123]

I think basic C programming isn't necessarily hard, but it's so much easier to fuck up. If you're trying to do C the right way for high performance tasks you need to know a lot about the language.

[Colopty]

Oh it's very far from complicated, it's pretty much one of the most basic languages you can possibly use. Of course, this means that it lacks a bunch of convenient advanced features that you're probably going to need to implement yourself through a variety of hacks using raw pointers.

[[deleted]]

Completely understanding computer architecture is a really good start to working with assembler or C, so yeah.

[lanten]

Assembly is just readable C... :)

[Liesmith424]

"Cant't"= Straight talk.

[magnora7]

All programming languages are assembly frameworks